Bored of topics posted of late....

[giotto]

Are you cheating? I was talking about these guys who frequent women who use alternative ways of getting their car payments made or trips paid for and then claim to know EVERYTHING about these MM and their marriages and that every single "man" in that situation is married to a harridan without an ounce of libido. Yeah. Okay. Whatever these gals wanna believe.

 

no, I'm not cheating... although sometimes I wish I was... lol, no, not really...

 

I think I misunderstood your post... apologies...

[JackJack]

Are you cheating? I was talking about these guys who frequent women who use alternative ways of getting their car payments made or trips paid for and then claim to know EVERYTHING about these MM and their marriages and that every single "man" in that situation is married to a harridan without an ounce of libido. Yeah. Okay. Whatever these gals wanna believe.

 

I think men who cheat suffer from low self esteem...of course they probably come across as cocky and entitled but really its the opposite. They can fulfill that void inside so they look elsewhere.

 

These women who have no problem helping out these men to fulfill that void, IMO suffer from the same thing as the cheating man. Of course they will always justify it, with something else than what it truly is.

 

JMO of course.

[Married_and_Lonely]

Lizzie, I'm sure you hear mainly the MM's side of the story regarding these failed marriages. Let's not forget these MM are trying to make themselves appealing to you so they're not exactly going to shine a light on their own flaws.

 

I don't agree with this premise that the man is justified in cheating and blaming it mostly on the wife that "doesn't keep him satisfied". First, its unlikely most of these men would have remained loyal to even the most perfect wife; if they had it in them to cheat, they probably would have done it regardless. Second, I don't think ANYTHING (even if the wife is medically unable to have sex) justifies cheating. I don't recall the bible verse that says, "thou shalt not commit adultery unless thy wife is a prude." (maybe New American Standard version)

 

I know that things happen, and we men are tempted, and I'm guilty of non-innocent flirting that was inappropriate a married man (and yes my poor sex life would easily make me a candidate for an affair), but lets not just wash these men of their cheating as an inevitable, justifiable action caused mainly by their wives.

 

As they say, two wrongs don't make a right.

[JackJack]

Sorry I meant to say "they can't".

[PandorasBox]

A cheater usually loves to blame. Its always someone else's fault for why they did what they did. Its the same with people who have no problem cheating with them. They like to blame, its so much easier than owning up to ones own faults or lack of self respect.

[xxoo]

. but MOST don't even get it twice a month.

 

Most married men in general? Or most men who cheat? Or is that one in the same thing, because "most" men cheat?

 

Lizzie, it makes all the sense in the world to me that, in your life, you would meet lots and lots of men who either 1. get little sex at home, or 2. say they get little sex at home. The men you meet are not necessarily representative of the whole, however.

 

The couples I know may not be representative of the whole, either, but I don't know many women who'd be happy with twice a month. Research supports my figures, putting average frequency between 1-3x a week for married couples.

 

I think that most couples, after a few years, get comfortable in their sex life.. it gets robotic.. because they don't have the energy anymore to find new tricks every night.. they just do it the same way, in the same pattern, time after time.. it ends up being boring.. but just enough to keep everyone happy... then a few years later it becomes like all the rest, a CHORE.... btdt..

 

Obviously, this was your experience. But others here---long time married women--have a different experience. This is my 20th year with my H, and I haven't btdt.

[JamesM]

 

Therefore men like these should never marry. This way they can keep all their assets. They can also have kids with women who don't want husbands but are looking for a parenting partner. It just doesn't make sense to ruin another persons life and expose them to diseases when clearly there are other options for these men.

 

It is what they call a "bait and switch." Do you think that they married expecting a sexless marriage? Do you think the wife told her husband that she would only have sex for the first few years until the children were born?

 

The problem is that these men went into marriage expecting that the wives to whom they promised faithfulness would respond with intimacy to make that easier. When it became obvious that the wives expected fidelity and no longer wanted sex, then suddenly these men felt as if they were trapped.

 

Fidelity goes both ways. Expecting no adultery while committing your partner to celibacy is absurd. And if there is a reason that a partner withholds sex, then it should be out in the open.

 

Why withhold sex and stay in a marriage? Why not divorce? Because the one with the low libido is getting everything he or she wants. Why stay in a marriage if you seek sex outside of the marriage? Because every other need is being fulfilled...or so it seems.

 

As easy as it sounds to say "get a divorce," it isn't. Breaking up your family because of no sex is not an admirable deed. Breaking up your family after withholding sex and driving your partner into an affair is. Go figure. Both are betrayals of the same vows.

 

As for exposing the partner to diseases.....we do that every day. They are just different kinds. Every hand I shake, every door I open, and every breath I take opens me up to a multitude of diseases. And that leaves my wife vulnerable to those same diseases. Having an affair is less dangerous than our every day activities. And yet I don't think to ask her permission to touch doors and breathe. Why this is always brought up as a reason someone should not have an affair, I don't know. It only says that the person needs to realize the dangers, and it also should warn the one who no longer wants sex that withholding sex can leave that person vulnerable to STDs because the partner may seek out sex elsewhere.

 

Ruining a person's life? As one whose wife withholds sex, I can say that this certainly can ruin a life. At the point that someone chooses an affair, they have been hurt enough to feel that giving hurt seems only fair. As I read that line "ruining someone's life," all I can think to say is....give me a break. No matter how it goes....divorce or an affair, lives will be ruined. And in many cases, these acts are only committed because something pushed that person into that act.

 

Withhold sex and then complain that your partner cheated? Ridiculous. Withholding sex IS cheating...no matter the reason. Solve why sex is withheld for the sake of your marriage. Expecting that your partner will suddenly remain celibate out of love and devotion is being oblivious to reality.

 

 

IMO it would be much easier for everyone if these guys stayed single as that seems to be what they really need.

 

If they had known that their wives would become celibate after selling them on a different "bill of goods," then I have no doubt that they would have remained single.

 

Affairs do not happen in a vacuum. Most are caused by something much more than a character flaw.

 

 

Pandora.....

A cheater usually loves to blame. Its always someone else's fault for why they did what they did. They like to blame, its so much easier than owning up to ones own faults or lack of self respect.

 

No, it is not. A cheater usually does have a reason, and sometimes it is a character flaw and a fault. I doubt it is a lack of self respect, but instead it is more of an inflated ego in those cases.

 

However, most victims of affairs like to pretend that they had nothing to do with how an affair just ruined their lives. Reality is...if they had simply upheld their end of the marriage vow whether it be sex, companionship, communication, or time spent with the partner, then an affair would never have been desirable. There are times when I am faced with the possibility of an affair with a woman who seems open to the idea. Why does the thought hold no desire even during those times of no sex? Because my wife seems more desirable. Despite her low libido, she still is my best friend, and losing that still outweighs the excitement of an affair. Yet there is still some thoughts that do arise that would not if we had a good sex life.

 

Again, affairs do not simply happen. They are a choice that is made because of circumstances.

[silktricks]

I bristle at the fact it is brought up as a defense mechanism so often. I simply stated my view that the vast majority of men who cheat do so because of a lack of sex at home. I also think that if a man got sex 2-4X's a week 90% probably would be over the moon satisfied with that.

 

IMO the vast majority of men (at least in our society) want sex more often than the vast majority of women. Are there exceptions? Of course there are. I'm not sure if the conclusion you have drawn, that the vast majority of men who cheat do so directly due to the lack of sex at home, but I would certainly agree that it is a probable factor.

 

I'm also not too sure how much our society plays into it (which was why I added the caveat). It seems like the society in the U.S. has been so tainted by the Calvinistic attitudes that it may not be so much what women are truly interested in as much as what women think they are supposed to be interested in... I don't know.

 

I do know that I personally have always had a pretty high libido. I also know that while I personally am very interested in sex, I am not going to be very interested if I feel like I am being used as opposed to being wanted. Very different things IMO.

[Lizzie60]

Well said James.. I was also going to post.. most men, when they get married, have no intention of cheating..

[PandorasBox]

"No, it is not. A cheater usually does have a reason, and sometimes it is a character flaw and a fault. I doubt it is a lack of self respect, but instead it is more of an inflated ego in those cases."

 

 

No problem, I still stand by what I say just like you probably do.

 

To me their inflated egos, is a cover for low self esteem. Most people with low self esteem will do whatever to try and pump themselves up to make them selves feel better, but thats JMO.

[silktricks]

I doubt that most people men or women when they marry choose to cheat. I also would assume that most people, men or women, when they marry haven't really considered their interest (or lack of same) in sex.

 

I also tried to add in my prior post - there are some women AND some men who are simply not interested in sex. IMO, those people should not ever marry unless they first have a completely frank discussion about it beforehand. As James said, refusing to partake in sex with your partner is also cheating.

[JamesM]

 

I don't agree with this premise that the man is justified in cheating and blaming it mostly on the wife that "doesn't keep him satisfied". First, its unlikely most of these men would have remained loyal to even the most perfect wife; if they had it in them to cheat, they probably would have done it regardless. Second, I don't think ANYTHING (even if the wife is medically unable to have sex) justifies cheating. I don't recall the bible verse that says, "thou shalt not commit adultery unless thy wife is a prude." (maybe New American Standard version)

 

 

First.....saying that a man cheats or doesn't based on some flaw is in ignorance of reality IMO. That is to say that no matter how hungry a man is, only the ones who would steal no matter what will actually steal to get their bellies filled.

 

Second, one doesn't justify cheating or anything when one gives a reason. A man may cheat because his wife has withheld sex, but that does not mean he no longer is responsible for his actions. It simply means that there is a reason, and yes, the wife could have kept him from choosing the affair if she had filled that need/desire.

 

Third, since you are quoting the Bible, read I Corinthians 7. It talks about how neither person should withhold sex from their partner. We love to preach about the one who commits adultery as if that person is somehow more of a sinner, but we forget that marriage fidelity is a two part vow. Keep sex in the marriage and give sex in the marriage.

 

Everyone who reads this is capable of adultery. Everyone. That doesn't mean you will. That doesn't mean you even want to do so. Yet to say that somehow those who do cheat are different is absurd. They did make the choice and the are responsible. Many (but certainly not all) only cheated because of the desperate circumstances they found themselves in.

 

Commitment is a two way street. Affairs do happen despite good marriages, but affairs mostly happen because of a flawed marriage. Not everyone in a flawed marriage will cheat and most won't. Yet putting your partner into a position where it might be attractive to cheat is no different than playing with fire. You may or may not get burned.

[PandorasBox]

And I also wanted to add but couldn't in time to my reply was, YES, IMO alot of people who cheat do like to blame. They like to blame others for THEIR choices.

[JamesM]

But that does NOT justify the cheating.

 

No, it doesn't. Giving a reason does not provide justification.

[JamesM]

And I also wanted to add but couldn't in time to my reply was, YES, IMO alot of people who cheat do like to blame. They like to blame others for THEIR choices.

 

Yes, they do. And that is not good. Even if there are reason for cheating, there is still a choice that was made.

 

However, for a partner whose husband or wife has cheated to sit back and say, "THEY made the choice, and I have no blame in this" is just as wrong and ignorant. In most cases, there is blame for both persons. And only those who realize it can move on and grow.

[Married_and_Lonely]

It is what they call a "bait and switch." Do you think that they married expecting a sexless marriage? Do you think the wife told her husband that she would only have sex for the first few years until the children were born?

 

The problem is that these men went into marriage expecting that the wives to whom they promised faithfulness would respond with intimacy to make that easier. When it became obvious that the wives expected fidelity and no longer wanted sex, then suddenly these men felt as if they were trapped.

 

As easy as it sounds to say "get a divorce," it isn't. Breaking up your family because of no sex is not an admirable deed. .

 

Awesome post, and I completely agree with the above. I was young and clueless that my wife's "a little bit lower than mine" sex drive would completely dry up once she became a mommy. And she waited until 7 years in our marriage to inform me that, "BTW, I've never really enjoyed sex". When she told me that, I was so saddened because I realized the problem had no chance of getting better. The most I can hope for now is pity sex, which is what I now feel like is all I've received my whole marriage. I married as a virgin because I thought it was noble, and now I still feel like a virgin because I've still never had enjoyable, mutually loving sex.

 

And yes, just divorce if counseling doesn't work is easy advice.. but damn, it's a hard step. My 5-year old just two days ago told mommy how she just loves being home and playing with us. You think anyone in our circle of friends and family will think I'm justified in breaking up the family and forcing my kids to move away from their big house in a perfect neighborhood because my wife isn't affectionate and doesn't like sex? No, they'll all think I'm being selfish and irresponsible.

[Lizzie60]

Most married men in general? Or most men who cheat? Or is that one in the same thing, because "most" men cheat?

 

Lizzie, it makes all the sense in the world to me that, in your life, you would meet lots and lots of men who either 1. get little sex at home, or 2. say they get little sex at home. The men you meet are not necessarily representative of the whole, however.

 

The couples I know may not be representative of the whole, either, but I don't know many women who'd be happy with twice a month. Research supports my figures, putting average frequency between 1-3x a week for married couples.

 

 

 

Obviously, this was your experience. But others here---long time married women--have a different experience. This is my 20th year with my H, and I haven't btdt.

 

If you think that my MMs are different from all the other MMs in the world.. good for you.. I happen to think they're not..

[Lizzie60]

It's true though that MMs are the ones accused of being liars, cheaters, douchebags, jerks... etc.. etc... but you never hear anything bad about the 'poor' BS who withhold sex ...

[BlueeyedJonesy]

:)you happen to live in la la land...just sayin...

[xxoo]

And she waited until 7 years in our marriage to inform me that, "BTW, I've never really enjoyed sex". .

 

How does this happen?? I'm honestly curious.

 

Did you have previous partners for comparison, or was she your first?

[PandorasBox]

It's true though that MMs are the ones accused of being liars, cheaters, douchebags, jerks... etc.. etc... but you never hear anything bad about the 'poor' BS who withhold sex ...

 

 

I guess they are both at fault then. They had choices. To with hold or not...to cheat or not...to get help for the marriage or not, to stay married or not.

 

I also have a feeling SOME of these men who cheat, are not always in situations where their wives are with holding. True some probably are, but some people will tell another person anything to get them to believe them. I guess some fall for the lies and and the jerks who tell them. Which not only says alot about the liar but the one who chooses to believe them.

[xxoo]

If you think that my MMs are different from all the other MMs in the world.. good for you.. I happen to think they're not..

 

And good for you

[Married_and_Lonely]

How does this happen?? I'm honestly curious.

 

Did you have previous partners for comparison, or was she your first?

 

She was ignorant to my dissatisfaction in our quality of sex, so she never saw fit to tell me she didn't enjoy it. She said she didn't want to hurt my feelings. I asked if she thought it was maybe because I wasn't good at it, and she said "I don't know, I've never been with anyone else... maybe". But I think she was just trying to latch onto a way out of her pickle and saw a way to partially deflect the blame to me.

 

I married as a virgin, but I fooled around with 3 girls prior to dating my wife. I admit I'm inexperienced and probably not great at sex because of it, but it's hard to improve when my wife is obviously uncomfortable with me using my fingers or tongue to please her and she's only willing to do missionary position. I've rolled over with her and tried to get her to try sex with her on top before, but she didn't like it and would lay back down. And she is adament about doggie style being dirty and making her feel like a pornstar. I've tried to get her to tell me what feels good or what she wants me to do while in the act, but she didn't want to talk about it.

 

I was clueless but this just should have warned me... a month into our dating in college, our heavy petting progressed to me giving oral... i looked up and she was crying.. i was sympathetic and asked what's wrong.. she said that we were moving too fast and we wouldn't have anything new left to experience if we didn't save something like that for later... i was understanding because I was crazy about her and said okay to slowing down, but to this day she still doesn't like that. She's naturally a shy person, so I just thought her shyness was the reason for her being subdued in bed, but I still thought she enjoyed it... until she told me otherwise and burst my bubble of hope.

[xxoo]

I was clueless but this just should have warned me... a month into our dating in college, our heavy petting progressed to me giving oral... i looked up and she was crying.. i was sympathetic and asked what's wrong.. she said that we were moving too fast and we wouldn't have anything new left to experience if we didn't save something like that for later... i was understanding because I was crazy about her and said okay to slowing down, but to this day she still doesn't like that. She's naturally a shy person, so I just thought her shyness was the reason for her being subdued in bed, but I still thought she enjoyed it... until she told me otherwise and burst my bubble of hope.

 

Oh, wow That's a lot of sexual hangups. I do think that, if you'd been with more girls, her hangups would have been more obvious to you.

I'm really sad for you both, missing out on so much

[Married_and_Lonely]

Yea, I think I'll try to us both to counselor first because we have other problems that I think are more fixable.. she thinks women's sex toys parties are gross so I highly doubt I could get her to a sex therapist unless I threatened her with divorce.

 

I'm hijacking this thread... my apologies, lets get back to the main topic.