Reformed other women

[JustJoe]

I'm not a believer in "affair fog", I believe that because the relationship is outside the bounds of normal married life, that confusion arises about the meaning of it all, many of the cliches about affairs make mention of this confusion. A "fog' implies to me, an attempt to evade responsibility, like saying "the devil made me do it". I feel that as an OM, I should own what I am responsible for.

[NoIDidn't]

I'm not a believer in "affair fog", I believe that because the relationship is outside the bounds of normal married life, that confusion arises about the meaning of it all, many of the cliches about affairs make mention of this confusion. A "fog' implies to me, an attempt to evade responsibility, like saying "the devil made me do it". I feel that as an OM, I should own what I am responsible for.

 

But, Joe, that's exactly what "the fog" is, that confusion that you speak of. Its not about avoiding responsibility. Its exactly what you just said about the intense feelings creating confusion and acting out of that confusion, and not based on REALITY.

[JustJoe]

Yeah, you're probably right, It sounded weird when I typed it. I'm not thinking too clearly tonight anyway. I think it's post-affair fog.

[Stung]

I am curious about why some other women, at least it seems so to me, completely change their minds and opinions about the affair once it is over. I can't believe that the former other women who are posting here on LS about all MM being liars and manipulators and having sex all the time with their wives and NC being the only way etc believed this while they were still actively in the affair.

 

My own thinking is that if you are not grounded enough in yourself during the affair, you might have to rethink it all afterwards. Or your MM might have been one of the MM who actually has purposely fooled you and lied to you, I do understand those exist. Or...

 

If you are one of these women who has changed her mind, I would be interested to hear why.

 

This is how I see it. I did drugs when I was young. I would never do it again. I can see all the dangers and bad consequences of it now. But I can sure as hell admit that I had fun while I did it!

I'll try to go back and read through the entire thread later; for now I'm only addressing this first post.

 

I experienced an affair as an OW over a decade ago. I was young and, to be honest, more callous than I am today in many ways. I was wounded, due to other circumstances, and I thought I deserved or needed my MM somehow, I tried to just not think about the repercussions his actions and my enabling of his actions would have on another human being. He was the first man to ring bells for me in years and I was weak and selfish, and I knew it.

 

I never thought he wasn't sleeping with his wife; they were engaged when I met him, and he lied to me outrageously about everything, and offered me the moon, and I was more naive then than I am now so I halfway bought it. He said he would leave her if I said the word, but from my position of greater strength and wisdom now I know he was manipulating me. Even then, I knew that he probably was, but I tried not to see it. I refused to 'say the word' because I wanted him to break off his engagement because he didn't want to marry, if that was the truth, not because I said so. Looking back I see how neatly that probably played into his mindgame. <Shrug> He read people professionally, he was a cop, and several years older and more experienced than I.

 

He was more to blame for the situation than I was, but even then I accepted that I, too, was in the wrong. I had a place in the triangle and I felt guilt because I knew that I was playing an active role in wronging another human being. I just see it with greater objectivity now. At the time I was clouded with lust, vulnerability, selfishness, and confusion as well. I even wondered if I loved him, although I didn't trust him.

 

I experienced no D-Day. I gathered my resolve and took myself out of the equation because I didn't like what I was becoming or where it was heading. He had married and then blamed it on my indecision and came right back to me the day after he returned from his honeymoon, which actually helped me because it let me see more clearly the great failures in his character. Still, it took me a little more time to cut it off completely and it wasn't easy <shrug> but few worthwhile things are. I have done other difficult things in this life as well and will surely continue to do so, it is part of becoming a strong and capable and wise adult.

 

I resolved to never be involved in such a dark, hurtful human drama again, and I never have been. I misliked what I perceived as a taint on my, for lack of a better word, 'soul'.

[White Flower]

Former OW whose As have ended badly, know it as do BWs. OWs still in As do not know it and simply cannot know it and so do not believe it.

FWIW an OW can know this even before the bus accident. Even during the happiest of times an OW can find herself suffering from the highs and lows of the A causing regret long before the end of the A. I did most of my 'warning' during that time.

[White Flower]

Rather than preaching hellfire and damnation, I find it far more useful to find out where the OW is, emotionally, and respond to the particular questions she has at the time, supporting rather than condemning.

And this is where I have landed. That is why I don't caution new OWs as much. For many, an A can be a very happy place.

[White Flower]

Innocence is the first casualty of an affair.

This is something I used to say all the time. It is a good quote.

[JustJoe]

Thank you, Ms. White Flower, yes it is very true. The second casualty is trust, and ironically , the third is love. I'm not in my affair anymore, I can end it, but I can't turn off my love. She(MW) has called me every day to beg another chance, every day I say no, and my heart breaks a little more.

[pureinheart]

Pure, "to learn compassion", such an important lesson. When I was 27 and became very sick with a neurosis, I realized that we do not know what other people have gone through and what has made them into the persons they are. Life is so much more complicated than I realized when I was young.

 

This is the closest I have ever come to forgive my mother who is a total narcissist and has a very compulsive/obsessive personality. My entire family of origin suffered the consequences of her abusive behaviour and we still do. Yet I do realize that I have not lived her life and therefore I try not to judge her.

 

This exactly where I am at with my mother. I have stuggled all of my life not knowing what the truth really is concerning how I grew up. On one hand you "hear" that you are resposible now, so forget your childhood, can't blame it on parents. Then on the other you hear that validation is needed and to deal with the past.

 

I was angry for many years behind all of this. Now I can forgive her as it is my turn now, and do not choose to waste anymore time in anger.

 

Yep...we don't know if something in which they never communicated to anyone could have possibly triggered this behavior...they may have been severely abused.

[pureinheart]

Jennie thank you for this thread. It has helped me to see it all in a different way. I have been struggling and struggling with the aftermath and seeing the various responses helps put it all into place.

 

And Pure its really nice to know that I am not the only one to have a "clone" experience.

 

JJ...I am truely sorry as it is not fun, in this case I wish I were the only one...lol......also agree thanks Jennie...it is really causing major breakthroughs in areas that I had forgotten...

[jennie-jennie]

How interesting. I never did start my thread idea about the hierarchy, but it seems to be rearing its head again.

 

This time its the "Happy" OW against the "Reformed" OW.

 

Very interesting.

 

I doubt that being "reformed" is about not accepting one's own personal responsibility. There are quite a few former posters and current that have never accepted personal responsibility for their part in an A, and they have NEVER once come off as "reformed".

 

Seems to me that "Happy" OW simply don't like the reformed OWs because they can't shoot them down as being "BWs". So they get another label, from those that say they hate labels BTW.

 

I don't understand how different viewpoints as being reformed or not can be considered a hierarchy.

 

About labels, is "reformed other woman" felt as a degrading label? Because I think that is what we were talking about earlier, degrading labels, not labels in general. We do need labels to differentiate between things or in this case people, they should however not be degrading.

[jennie-jennie]

I think a lot of ex-OW never liked it when they were in the A to start with! I reckon that a lot of MM lay on the lies thick about how they're about to leave the W, because the OW in question states how much they hate the lying, and views the whole situation as a bit sordid, and actually wants the MM to leave the W so they can have an out in the open, regular R and NOT be involved in something sordid (more than actually wanting necessarily a life long R with the MM). Then the MM drags his feet and the OW leaves, kinda disgusted at the fact that she compromized her boundaries in the 1st place. Then they see a bunch of other women on this board making the same hideous mistakes, all saying that 'my MM is different' (how many times will we hear that!!!!) and want to save them the heartache and bother - and wish they could see what a jackass they are involved with. Hence them posting here...

 

Thank you, torrance, for this post. I believe this post gets at the core emotions of the reformed other women. And it is nothing wrong with feeling like this, it is perfectly understandable. I think what makes it difficult for other OW to deal with is the assumption that just because this was the case for you, it is the case for all OW. All MM are not jackasses, all OW do not dislike being in a relationship with them although they might wish they would not be married, and so on.

[JustJoe]

I know that if anyone were to call me a "reformed ", OM, I would be pissed. It's not so much degrading as judgemental , implying misbehavior. I don't think that everything about my affair was bad, parts of it were very, very ,good. I loved her and still do, is that bad? She loved me and she still does, is that bad? Maybe the label should be "former", OM/OW or FOM/FOW? That would identify a poster as a past AP and not judge them , now.

[pureinheart]

No, not all WS are hardcore cakeeaters - not by a longshot.

 

Totally agree, as there are many different reasons...sure there are simularities, although I don't believe any two situations are exactly alike.

[jennie-jennie]

It would be interesting to start a thread on fog vs love. When I was in my A I could have sworn it was love. After ending I hurt so bad, and still do some days, that I feel it is easier to say it was the "affair fog." I still do not know what it was. It felt like love, but maybe it was the hormones, or the fog. Love is so confusing in an A.

 

This is also a very telling post. And honest.

[anne1707]

I understand what NID is saying (and that no mention was made of labels being degrading)

 

I have seen this treatment of "reformed OW" on this site by "happy OW" and I have even experienced it myself as a "reformed WS". I have had posters make comments about my affair along the lines of "oh well then you must not have had the real connection that I ("happy OW") have" or "he must not have loved you the way my AP loves me".

 

It's like saying that the "reformed OW" (or "reformed WS") does not know the "true depths of love" because they are no longer in the affair and have grown and recovered from the pain they experienced in that relationship. If that is not an attempt to create some sort of twisted hierarchy then I don't know what it is (well I do have an idea but it is not for this thread ).

[anne1707]

I know that if anyone were to call me a "reformed ", OM, I would be pissed. It's not so much degrading as judgemental , implying misbehavior. I don't think that everything about my affair was bad, parts of it were very, very ,good. I loved her and still do, is that bad? She loved me and she still does, is that bad? Maybe the label should be "former", OM/OW or FOM/FOW? That would identify a poster as a past AP and not judge them , now.

 

 

And most ex-OW refer themeselves to ex-OW and not reformed as this thread has suggested. I always refer to myself as an ex-WS.

[JustJoe]

That's why it's important to give some thought, before labeling anyone. Just as I believe that all affairs aren't all bad, I don't believe that they are always good either. I know of nobody in an affair who is truly a "happy", OM/OW. Many of them could be considered as being "accepting ", OM/OW's, or "tolerating", OM/OW's, but most , if not all would wish that the relationship was something else, something better, or something more honest.

[jennie-jennie]

I know that if anyone were to call me a "reformed ", OM, I would be pissed. It's not so much degrading as judgemental , implying misbehavior. I don't think that everything about my affair was bad, parts of it were very, very ,good. I loved her and still do, is that bad? She loved me and she still does, is that bad? Maybe the label should be "former", OM/OW or FOM/FOW? That would identify a poster as a past AP and not judge them , now.

 

No, "former" does not do it, Joe, because it implies more than that.

 

I looked "reformed" up in Onelook Dictionary. I think it pretty much covers what we are trying to say.

 

"▸ adjective: caused to abandon an evil manner of living and follow a good one ('A reformed drunkard')"

 

I doubt there is a better and more non-judgmental term to be used to describe the same phenomena, but I am open to suggestions.

[jennie-jennie]

And most ex-OW refer themeselves to ex-OW and not reformed as this thread has suggested. I always refer to myself as an ex-WS.

 

Which brings up the matter of there being reformed WSs as well. I have never seen someone I consider reformed call themselves that, but I believe they too must feel there is a distinction. Anne, do you have a suggestion for a term to distinguish between these two groups of OW/OM and WS? Ex does not do it.

[jennie-jennie]

I understand what NID is saying (and that no mention was made of labels being degrading)

 

I have seen this treatment of "reformed OW" on this site by "happy OW" and I have even experienced it myself as a "reformed WS". I have had posters make comments about my affair along the lines of "oh well then you must not have had the real connection that I ("happy OW") have" or "he must not have loved you the way my AP loves me".

 

It's like saying that the "reformed OW" (or "reformed WS") does not know the "true depths of love" because they are no longer in the affair and have grown and recovered from the pain they experienced in that relationship. If that is not an attempt to create some sort of twisted hierarchy then I don't know what it is (well I do have an idea but it is not for this thread ).

 

Too me it is more like the reformed OW/OM and ditto WS are denouncing the extramarital relationship. Reformed does not say anything about the actual emotions in the affair itself, it talks about the attitude post affair, ie that one feels one has abandoned an evil manner of living and is now following a good one.

 

If there is any hierarchy to be found here, it would be the reformed OW/OM considering they have found the right path while the other OW are still on the wrong path.

Edited March 9, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

That's why it's important to give some thought, before labeling anyone. Just as I believe that all affairs aren't all bad, I don't believe that they are always good either. I know of nobody in an affair who is truly a "happy", OM/OW. Many of them could be considered as being "accepting ", OM/OW's, or "tolerating", OM/OW's, but most , if not all would wish that the relationship was something else, something better, or something more honest.

 

And yet for lack of better terminology we might have to do with the terms "happy OW/OM" and "reformed OW/OM".

[JustJoe]

Well, Jennie, if "reformed', is accurate to the reformed OP's, then "happy" is accurate to the happy OP's, right? And IMO both terms are inaccurate as hell!!

[jennie-jennie]

Well, Jennie, if "reformed', is accurate to the reformed OP's, then "happy" is accurate to the happy OP's, right? And IMO both terms are inaccurate as hell!!

 

I can see that someone like you, Joe, would have a problem with fitting in either category. Interesting. I liked your "self-improving" OW/OM, but I believe the reformed OW/OM would react to not being included there, so no, that does not work.

 

Can you think of a better word than "reformed" to describe abandoning what one feels is an evil way of living for a good way of living? I can't.

[JustJoe]

I think you're right about that. Regardless of the differences of opinion on affairs and their outcomes, I do believe that one thing CAN be said, that most would agree to. Nobody can go through an affair , un-changed. Yes, I may have lost my innocence, but I gained a lot of knowledge about human relationships. Whether it was worth the lost love and pain, the jury's still out.