"Thrown under the bus"

[wheelwright]

I agree with this. The WS does not have to actively play down the affair for it to be apparent that ultimately the marriage is more important. By ending the affair, they are effectively saying that the promises made to the OW/OM etc did not really count (at least to the extent implied) when it came to the crunch. The promises, love and commitment in the marriage meant more to the WS (although with a very poor way of showing it).

 

I agree with this, but have some things to add.

 

It means the WS is willing to sign up to all that the BS may feel after DDay, or indeed that they themselves hate the AP because of the pain the xmR has caused and so will write off the AP as a piece of inconsequential dirt.

 

With no regard for the feelings of the AP. It is that feeling of being inconsequential to someone who you have shared love with that thrown under a bus so beautifully encapsulates. The A can end without this horrible feeling.

 

I didn't feel thrown under a bus when my xAP chose to end the A and work on his M. To me this was an obvious choice he was always going to have to make. Not to say it didn't hurt.

 

I felt thrown under a bus when he blanked me in the street after his DDay.

 

And you can only be thrown under a bus after a DDay, so it's something that happens when the truth is out. It is something the WS does, but it is influenced by the feelings of the BS.

 

It is more than just choosing one above the other.

[Dexter Morgan]

what I find amusing is that an OW/OM will say they were thrown under the bus as if THEY were treated unfairly:o

[sedgwick]

If nobody ever used the phrase "thrown under the bus" again, the world would be a better place. I hate it almost as much as "guesstimate."

[wheelwright]

what I find amusing is that an OW/OM will say they were thrown under the bus as if THEY were treated unfairly:o

 

When we xAPs talk about being thrown under a bus, it's not so much about unfairness, just that it hurts!

[moaningmyrtle]

Re-reading Jennie's original question, she based it on the assumption that the definition of "thrown under the bus", was dependant on the A ending.

 

I don't think that is the case at all. In fact (from reading these forums) very few As end quite so cleanly as that. Many are continued on in some form or another before they eventually end.

 

Frequently we see OW on this forum who say that they get "thrown under the bus" on more than one occasion, so obviously it can happen without the A ending.

 

Thinking more about it - if after d-day, the WS does not leave the wife immediately, and indicates to her that he wants to stay with her (even if this doesn't work out eventually), then there has been some element of throwing the OW under the bus.

 

I think there are degrees of severity or wrongness (for the OW) in the manner in which an OW is thrown under the bus. Some are easier on an OW than others. It seems almost like there's an inverse relationship between the severity of the impact on the OW of being thrown under the bus; and the level of gaslighting (ie about whether the A is over) and mimimisation (of the AP) to the BW.

[skylarblue]

I think a MM throws the OW under the bus when he lies about the nature/circumstances/feelings of the A. For me, the idea is not so much that the MM is minimizing the A (which he is), but in doing so he is “minimizing” the OW as a person in his life. By having a R and then portraying it as less or other than it is or the OW as less or other than she is would be what I’d consider being thrown under the bus; being represented in a manner other than factual.

Personally, I expect my MM to throw me under the bus. I don’t particularly like the idea of it (I use to be completely ok with it), but I know he will do and say anything and everything to keep his M intact if/when dday occurs. I'm okay that he denies the A, but I’m not sure how I’d feel if he depicted me and the R in a negative or trivial way to his W, but still wanted to continue the R. Although, I’d totally understand the reasons why, I’d still be hurt and disappointed that he couldn’t be man enough to admit to the realities of the A.

[jennie-jennie]

Re-reading Jennie's original question, she based it on the assumption that the definition of "thrown under the bus", was dependant on the A ending.

 

I don't think that is the case at all. In fact (from reading these forums) very few As end quite so cleanly as that. Many are continued on in some form or another before they eventually end.

 

Frequently we see OW on this forum who say that they get "thrown under the bus" on more than one occasion, so obviously it can happen without the A ending.

 

I didn't mean that the affair actually did end, I meant that there was an attempt to end the affair, whether successful or not, or at least to make it look like it to the BS.

[moaningmyrtle]

I didn't mean that the affair actually did end, I meant that there was an attempt to end the affair, whether successful or not, or at least to make it look like it to the BS.

 

Thank you for clarifying Jennie. Both your original options started with the words "ending the relationship" and I just wanted to say that I don't think that being "thrown under the bus" can only happen when the relationship (ie the A) actually ends. It seems we agree on this aspect at least.

[Barky]

can somebody point me to the post where all these MM, OW, DDay, etc etc acronyms are explained? thx

[White Flower]

what I find amusing is that an OW/OM will say they were thrown under the bus as if THEY were treated unfairly:o

And rightfully so. If promises were made and didn't take place then they certainly were treated unfairly.

[White Flower]

Its ALL bullsh*t.

Maybe its because I have been OW in the past...but I would never ever allow my H to talk bad about any of the women he took advantage of.

That would demean not only her, but ME.

I wholeheartedly agree. What gets me is how some BW automatically think the OW is some evil b****, an entity to be labeled such as 'thing', etc., and when they behave this way they are also saying terrible things about themselves without even knowing it. I was reading another website and over and over I kept reading BWs thoughts and comments of OWs and found it astounding that they would repeatedly say things like, 'My H knows what she IS', and 'that evil *******' and even worse but I don't dare repeat it. They don't even try to keep their cool nor do their supporters. It is allowed and that concerns me for all women.

 

MM's W tries to depict me in this way. She has no idea how small and ignorant this makes her look to her H. He knows the truth about me, how loving, kind, and intelligent I am. When she talks like that, she pales in comparison. I wish she knew that...for herself. It's sad really.

[moaningmyrtle]

I wholeheartedly agree. What gets me is how some BW automatically think the OW is some evil b****, an entity to be labeled such as 'thing', etc., and when they behave this way they are also saying terrible things about themselves without even knowing it. I was reading another website and over and over I kept reading BWs thoughts and comments of OWs and found it astounding that they would repeatedly say things like, 'My H knows what she IS', and 'that evil *******' and even worse but I don't dare repeat it. They don't even try to keep their cool nor do their supporters. It is allowed and that concerns me for all women.

 

MM's W tries to depict me in this way. She has no idea how small and ignorant this makes her look to her H. He knows the truth about me, how loving, kind, and intelligent I am. When she talks like that, she pales in comparison. I wish she knew that...for herself. It's sad really.

 

Why this unprovoked attack on "some BW" Whiteflower? It seems to have nothing much to do with the thread topic and says as much about you (hmm the same argument you are using in fact) as it does about these "some BW" to which you refer; which I gather are nothing much to do with either your MM or Loveshack.

 

This is quite unworthy of your usual standard of contributions to this forum.

 

Added later: I've suddenly realised that your concern may be that in throwing you under the bus, your MM had portrayed you badly to his W (as part of the minimisation that goes on at d-day) despite knowing to the contrary. In which case your concerns are relevant to the thread topic. Sorry I can't remember if you've even had a d-day or whether you have been thrown under the bus. If BW do think so badly of the OW in such circumstances it's hardly surprising and at least some of the blame has to rest with the MM for choosing to speak so badly of the OW.

 

I'm not even sure that I will have edited this in time to amend this post.

Edited February 27, 2010 by moaningmyrtle

[moaningmyrtle]

I think between them WF and 2sure have raised an interesting point.

 

I think most posters have agreed that the act by a MM in throwing the OW under the bus involves some level of minimizing the A and the AP.

 

I know my H has never called the OW any rude names when speaking of her to me. However he has said things like "she was more of a pursuer than he was", that she "made a habit of coming on to her male bosses" and that "she had multiple affairs before" and was "expert at lying".

 

I also know that they told each other they loved each other, but somehow the overriding impression I was given at d-day was of a promiscuous, slutty woman. I'm afraid in my mind this translated into all sorts of rude words, which I'm quite happy to use to describe her but won't because I don't want to get banned.

 

This may explain why "some BW" are willing to say on public forums the sorts of things WF describes. Perhaps they may even believe it because after all that is what their H's have told them.

 

In some ways the things my H told me about the OW after d-day (promiscuous, liar, sex-mad, etc) represent the converse of the things he told her about me during the A (unloving, unaffectionate etc). They were clearly calculated to keep the relationship going whether it be marriage or affair and also designed to minimise each woman in the other's eyes.

Edited February 27, 2010 by moaningmyrtle

[White Flower]

Why this unprovoked attack on "some BW" Whiteflower? It seems to have nothing much to do with the thread topic and says as much about you (hmm the same argument you are using in fact) as it does about these "some BW" to which you refer; which I gather are nothing much to do with either your MM or Loveshack.

 

This is quite unworthy of your usual standard of contributions to this forum.

 

Added later: I've suddenly realised that your concern may be that in throwing you under the bus, your MM had portrayed you badly to his W (as part of the minimisation that goes on at d-day) despite knowing to the contrary. In which case your concerns are relevant to the thread topic. Sorry I can't remember if you've even had a d-day or whether you have been thrown under the bus. If BW do think so badly of the OW in such circumstances it's hardly surprising and at least some of the blame has to rest with the MM for choosing to speak so badly of the OW.

 

I'm not even sure that I will have edited this in time to amend this post.

I think you have misread my OP and I also think (not sure?) that you had second thoughts thus the edit?

 

And yes, my bus accident was very recent. Still using crutches.

 

I try to always include the word 'some' when talking about BS because I think it is irresponsible to throw them all into the same group just as it is irresponsible to throw OW into the same group. I was speaking of those who can only think in terms of trashing the OW and tainting her in the eyes of the MM as if he is seeing and learning about OW for the first time in his life. It is ridiculous for any human being to believe that 4 (or insert any number) years of love and intimacy (and I'm talking about life-changing and meaningful connection) can be minimized with a few attempts at disparaging remarks about someone they (BW) don't even know. It is desperate, even in the face of shock.

 

And you're right, I was pointing out the behavior of 'some' BWs from another forum. The ones here seem to be pretty restrained and well spoken even in the midst of deep pain.

 

I don't believe MM has spoken badly of me at all to tell you the truth but I know you'll think what you like. I will say he probably bites his tongue when he wishes (and should) defend me but he threw me under the bus because he is a coward, not because he suddenly discovered that he loves her after XX years.

 

I am not delusional, but I wouldn't blame you if you thought that I was. I have been privy to his counseling sessions, have been introduced to his friends, and he's been telling family members about me--all this after D-day in an effort to prove himself to me. I even heard the voicemail from his D attorney because I have the password to his cell phone. I'm only telling you these things because once in a while there really is a MM who cowers in the face of sudden impact and caught unawares even when he loves the OW more than his W.

 

The main point and the reason I shared all that with you is that I know he hasn't 'chosen to speak so badly' of me. I know in THIS case it is the BW who is trying so hard to paint the OW as bad in an effort to influence her WH. It will never work though, trust me on that one.

 

My sister did the same thing when she caught her SO in an affair. She did everything she could to berate the OW, then later admitted to me that she couldn't believe she lowered herself to that standard. It made her feel weak and stupid because really in the end that woman loved the same man she did and for the same reasons. And if they had so much in common, why was one a @#$%^ and not the other? The answer is not a marriage contract; it is that she couldn't restrain herself with grace and dignity in the face of losing him. And that is what keeps him coming back to the OW in many cases. He wants somebody in his life who isn't going to 'lose it' when times get tough.

[White Flower]

I think between them WF and 2sure have raised an interesting point.

 

I think most posters have agreed that the act by a MM in throwing the OW under the bus involves some level of minimizing the A and the AP.

 

I know my H has never called the OW any rude names when speaking of her to me. However he has said things like "she was more of a pursuer than he was", that she "made a habit of coming on to her male bosses" and that "she had multiple affairs before" and was "expert at lying".

 

I also know that they told each other they loved each other, but somehow the overriding impression I was given at d-day was of a promiscuous, slutty woman. I'm afraid in my mind this translated into all sorts of rude words, which I'm quite happy to use to describe her but won't because I don't want to get banned.

 

This may explain why "some BW" are willing to say on public forums the sorts of things WF describes. Perhaps they may even believe it because after all that is what their H's have told them.

 

In some ways the things my H told me about the OW after d-day (promiscuous, liar, sex-mad, etc) represent the converse of the things he told her about me during the A (unloving, unaffectionate etc). They were clearly calculated to keep the relationship going whether it be marriage or affair and also designed to minimise each woman in the other's eyes.

In the case of the WH describing the OW as the pursuer, the liar, the slut, one can easily see that he knows how to calm down his W. I could have believed all of it except that he said he loved her. What kind of man does that make him? That he will say he loves a slut? What kind of H does that make him for you? And you keep him around? Of course I'm speaking hypothetically here.

 

I think so many BW believe their H because they want to believe them. We're talking about faith here, not truth. And OW do it to (oftentimes). But the point I was making earlier is when the WH does NOT disparage the OW on Dday yet the BW (some, not all) feel the need to take on that job. It just makes them look more desperate IMHO. It's sad, actually. My guess is she was hurt that he didn't take that stance so she thought she would take it up for him.

 

And my MM never admitted sleeping with me. She thinks we only had phone calls between us. He defended me and said he called me at first but she found records where I called him back. I'm a slut because I called him.

 

I hope I have enough disclaimers to ensure I am not attacking anyone personally or speaking too generally.

Edited February 27, 2010 by White Flower

[bittersweet memories]

I wholeheartedly agree. What gets me is how some BW automatically think the OW is some evil b****, an entity to be labeled such as 'thing', etc., and when they behave this way they are also saying terrible things about themselves without even knowing it. I was reading another website and over and over I kept reading BWs thoughts and comments of OWs and found it astounding that they would repeatedly say things like, 'My H knows what she IS', and 'that evil *******' and even worse but I don't dare repeat it. They don't even try to keep their cool nor do their supporters. It is allowed and that concerns me for all women.

 

MM's W tries to depict me in this way. She has no idea how small and ignorant this makes her look to her H. He knows the truth about me, how loving, kind, and intelligent I am. When she talks like that, she pales in comparison. I wish she knew that...for herself. It's sad really.

 

Wow...you sound just as bad as your descripition of your MM's W. You are no better. Just sayin...really sad!

Edited February 27, 2010 by bittersweet memories

[moaningmyrtle]

In the case of the WH describing the OW as the pursuer, the liar, the slut, one can easily see that he knows how to calm down his W. I could have believed all of it except that he said he loved her. What kind of man does that make him? That he will say he loves a slut? What kind of H does that make him for you? And you keep him around? Of course I'm speaking hypothetically here.

 

I think so many BW believe their H because they want to believe them. We're talking about faith here, not truth. And OW do it to (oftentimes). But the point I was making earlier is when the WH does NOT disparage the OW on Dday yet the BW (some, not all) feel the need to take on that job. It just makes them look more desperate IMHO. It's sad, actually. My guess is she was hurt that he didn't take that stance so she thought she would take it up for him.

 

And my MM never admitted sleeping with me. She thinks we only had phone calls between us. He defended me and said he called me at first but she found records where I called him back. I'm a slut because I called him.

 

I hope I have enough disclaimers to ensure I am not attacking anyone personally or speaking too generally.

 

As I said my H never called her any rude names and he certainly has never to my knowledge called anyone a slut. No he loved her, but nevertheless I think what he told me about her was true but completely one dimensional, at least until I probed a little further. Just as what he told her about me was one dimensional but it sounds like she never tried to find out about the good things about me - do any OW want to hear good things about the wife? - somehow I think not. Just as wives don't want to hear good things about the OW. And the MM certainly don't want to tell either woman how loving and affectionate the other is.

 

You've said several times how the wife has been badmouthing you. I wonder how you found this out - did he tell you this or other people?

 

I think it very cruel if other people pass onto an OW details of the nasty things a BW has been saying about her. Personally I think a true friend of an OW wouldn't do this unless they knew it had some truth. Of course I'm speaking hypothetically here.

 

If a MM tells the OW of the nasty things his wife is saying about the OW then you can be almost certain that he is still trying to minimize the wife in the OW's eyes and that he will likewise be doing the same to her. If the MM has falsely denied having sex then the OW already knows this anyway.

 

At least try to have some understanding if a BW calls the OW a few rude names. She knows that both her H and the OW have participated in a gross betrayal and if the OW has spoken to her and not admitted the sexual relationship then the OW has been dishonest with her too.

 

I hope I have enough disclaimers to ensure I am not attacking anyone personally and or speaking too generally

[pureinheart]

can somebody point me to the post where all these MM, OW, DDay, etc etc acronyms are explained? thx

 

LOL (laughing out loud)....just messing with you! Anyway there possibly some place in plain view where these are displayed...I think this is the only forum that uses such a wide variety.

 

A=Affair

MM= Married Man

MW=Married Woman

OW=Other Woman

R=Relationship

D=Divorce

DDay=Discovery Day of the Affair

H=Huspand

BW=Betrayed Wife

BS=Betrayed Spouse

[White Flower]

As I said my H never called her any rude names and he certainly has never to my knowledge called anyone a slut. No he loved her, but nevertheless I think what he told me about her was true but completely one dimensional, at least until I probed a little further. Just as what he told her about me was one dimensional but it sounds like she never tried to find out about the good things about me - do any OW want to hear good things about the wife? - somehow I think not. Just as wives don't want to hear good things about the OW. And the MM certainly don't want to tell either woman how loving and affectionate the other is.

 

You've said several times how the wife has been badmouthing you. I wonder how you found this out - did he tell you this or other people?

 

I think it very cruel if other people pass onto an OW details of the nasty things a BW has been saying about her. Personally I think a true friend of an OW wouldn't do this unless they knew it had some truth. Of course I'm speaking hypothetically here.

 

If a MM tells the OW of the nasty things his wife is saying about the OW then you can be almost certain that he is still trying to minimize the wife in the OW's eyes and that he will likewise be doing the same to her. If the MM has falsely denied having sex then the OW already knows this anyway.

 

At least try to have some understanding if a BW calls the OW a few rude names. She knows that both her H and the OW have participated in a gross betrayal and if the OW has spoken to her and not admitted the sexual relationship then the OW has been dishonest with her too.

 

I hope I have enough disclaimers to ensure I am not attacking anyone personally and or speaking too generally

Actually, I do want to know good things about the W. But I am unusual that way.

 

Why wouldn't the W or the OW want to hear about the good things as well as the bad? I suppose it has something to do with self-esteem or how strong an individual is. I don't need to hear how low or how bad the W is. In fact, he usually had pretty good things to say about her except that love had died many years ago. That isn't bad per se, just a fact. And apparently she is very affectionate. This fact does not bother me, but perhaps it would bother others?

 

No, I have not spoken to her. She calls and hangs up but never leaves a message asking me to call her back. My guess is that she fears the truth. I'm not going to force the truth on her if she isn't ready for it. I don't need MM to tell me she can't handle it, her actions speak for themselves.

 

I have spent years watching MM and I can tell you when he is lying and he knows it. He just doesn't lie to me anymore because it is pointless. I know how and when to ask him questions that will get me the truth. He's even tired of lying to his W and is just keeping quiet most of the time now. Anyway, yes, he is the one telling me about the badmouthing but again, I can read him like a book. I just find it a little comical that I am a slut because I rang him up. My guess is that she is more suspicious than she is leading on so good for her, she is thinking.

 

And for the record, I do understand the BS who gets angry and calls a few names in the beginning but I just don't understand the need to berate the OP days months and years later after the initial shock has worn off when she should really be angry at the man who betrayed her. Why put the focus on the OP? I never understood that mentality. When my exH cheated my pain was directed at him not his OW.

 

I almost forgot we were talking about the definition of being thrown under he bus. It seems to have strayed into how we are affected after the incident and the thought process that follows. My apologies to jennie-jennie if the thread has derailed.

[White Flower]

Wow...you sound just as bad as your descripition of your MM's W. You are no better. Just sayin...really sad!

Why, because I called her small and ignorant? I don't think that even compares to whore, slut, b**** and so many other nice adjectives I've seen on those other sites.

 

Look, if I were in the position of BW again I think a better strategy would be to become whatever attracted my H to me in the first place. Gentle, intelligent, fill in the blanks. Going ballistic and becoming manipulative only serves to remind him why he fell out of love in the first place. It is so simple that it is mind-boggling.

[moaningmyrtle]

...I am a slut because I rang him up... .

 

I'm sure that this is not the case.

 

But if he hasn't admitted to the sexual relationship with you then there's no obvious reason for you to be phoning him. It's possible you have been portrayed to his wife as some sort of relentless pursuer that he's been manfully resisting. If this is even partly how he's been portraying you then it's no wonder that she might see you in a less than favorable light.

 

Have you asked him what he says about you to his wife and how he portrays you?

 

Do you think it's really possible that he's been telling her how "loving kind and intelligent you are" (these are the words you used when you said how you think he feels about you)? If so what do you think she makes of it? If not what has he said to her about you? Surely he had to have told her soemthing when he threw you under the bus.

 

I see we might have t/jed here. My excuse is that we are still discussing the sort of behaviour a MM might exhibit when throwing his OW under the bus. If that wasn't what you intended W/F, then I'm not sure why the behaviour of BWs even got raised on this thread.

[White Flower]

I'm sure that this is not the case.

 

But if he hasn't admitted to the sexual relationship with you then there's no obvious reason for you to be phoning him. It's possible you have been portrayed to his wife as some sort of relentless pursuer that he's been manfully resisting. If this is even partly how he's been portraying you then it's no wonder that she might see you in a less than favorable light.

 

Have you asked him what he says about you to his wife and how he portrays you?

 

Do you think it's really possible that he's been telling her how "loving kind and intelligent you are" (these are the words you used when you said how you think he feels about you)? If so what do you think she makes of it? If not what has he said to her about you? Surely he had to have told her soemthing when he threw you under the bus.

 

I see we might have t/jed here. My excuse is that we are still discussing the sort of behaviour a MM might exhibit when throwing his OW under the bus. If that wasn't what you intended W/F, then I'm not sure why the behaviour of BWs even got raised on this thread.

It IS the case. She really believes I am a s*** for merely calling her H but you don't have to believe me and I don't need to convince you. People are people and we're all different. She may not be as level-headed as you are.

 

We can agree that this conversation is a propos to the subject of being thrown under the bus. I was agreeing with 2sure when she said she would never ever allow her H to talk badly about any OW he took advantage of which carried into the next statement that I made...

 

'What gets me is how some BW automatically think the OW is some evil b****, an entity to be labeled such as 'thing', etc., '

 

As someone who tries to understand all perspectives I get stumped by this particular kind of behavior, the automatic response that the OW is inherently bad. I suppose to think higher of the OW, to see her as human would be even more threatening to some BS, at least this one in particular.

 

Of course I ask him what he says and I know the truth when I hear it from him. No, he hasn't told her about my qualities except those he would use to describe a friend or coworker but because I returned his calls I have an evil agenda in her mind. I don't blame her for being apprehensive at all and she is absolutely right to be suspicious about someone who has spent hours on the phone with her H. My problem is with the automatic defensiveness and the quick response of labeling a 'friend' of her Hs as a s*** just because he has enjoyed conversation with her. OK to feel threatened by phone calls? Absolutely. OK to relegate phone partner/friend to the lower echelons of society just because you're threatened? No way, that is uncalled for. If she has so much respect for her H, she shouldn't believe he would interact with s***s.

 

It seems OK for the OW to be the s*** but not OK for her H to be one. Do you get the mentality? Why is she so quick to believe her H is above the moral capacity of the OW?

 

Remember that it doesn't always take the disparaging of an OW by a MM to throw them under the bus. If W is so angry over a few phone calls to 'a friend' he doesn't really have to say anything bad about her (OW). He merely has to agree to stop calling her. My guess is because he didn't disparage me she became even more threatened and that is why she needed to entice him to see me as the evil pursuer.

[bittersweet memories]

Why, because I called her small and ignorant? I don't think that even compares to whore, slut, b**** and so many other nice adjectives I've seen on those other sites.

 

Look, if I were in the position of BW again I think a better strategy would be to become whatever attracted my H to me in the first place. Gentle, intelligent, fill in the blanks. Going ballistic and becoming manipulative only serves to remind him why he fell out of love in the first place. It is so simple that it is mind-boggling.

 

 

But he's still with this small, ignorant, manipulative, ballistic person(your description)? Right? Yeah, that makes alot sense, thats whats mind boggling..

Edited February 27, 2010 by bittersweet memories

[Got it]

I am another one that I didn't want to hear negative things about his wife. Why would I want that? Even now that they are divorcing speaking negatively about another just belittles the speaker. Just because they were not a good fit together in now way meant that either one of them wasn't a person with a lot of great attributes.

 

The one thing I asked him was if there was a dday don't throw me under the bus. For me, that terms a belittling and blaming of the AP. If he was a big enough boy to be in an affair he better believe he needs to own it. We did have a dday and he came completely clean. He kept the focus and the blame solely on him. I ended the affair at that point until he figured out what he was going to do.

[jennie-jennie]

I hope I am not threadjacking my own thread here, but is it considered a Dday if the WS decides to confess the affair to the BS? Whether or not it is still ongoing?