dgiirl Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 Hey Dgiirl. I admire many of your posts and consider you to be a very compassionate listener and advice-giver. In Lisa's defense, these types of affirmations are very difficult to say to oneself and to believe when one is depressed. In fact, depression wouldn't really exist if people could just talk/think themselves out of it, right? At the very least, it's extremely hard work. Actually, besides any physical conditions, I believe depression would never have happened in the first place if we had our thought processes/self talk in check and in control. It's just extremely hard work to have that in control 24/7. (I know from experience) In any case, the VERY first step to solving any problem or addiction is to acknowledge there is a problem. I'm not telling Lisa to just say she loves herself and everything will be fine. I'm trying to plant the seeds and help her acknowledge that some of her pain is self inflicted. She does not say very nice things to herself. She's been struggling with her separation from her ex for a year now, and that's ok. She needed the time to mourn and gain some strength from all the pain. But if she does not want to be stuck in this torment for the rest of her life, she has to start learning how to cope, heal, and move on. Again, it will not be very easy, and it will not be quick. It will take more baby steps, some falling down, and might take another year or two. I wish she could get some professional help with a trained counselor. But since she cannot at the moment, she needs to learn how to do it on her own. All I'm asking from her right now is to pay very very close attention to what she does when she's absolutely alone. Take interest in her own human behavior. How does she react to different situations? Does she say nice things to herself or does she make herself cry? Does she have a fight with her mother and then regurgitate the whole fight in her head for three days after? Start studying yourself.
soheartbroken Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 Actually, besides any physical conditions, I believe depression would never have happened in the first place if we had our thought processes/self talk in check and in control. I believe that we mostly see eye to eye. I was just being careful that we don't minimize how difficult it can be to think positively, speak affirmations, etc. It really is hard work, and even harder when you're being put down at home.
unsureLP Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 Lisa, I noticed someone offered you a place to stay for a bit? During summer vacation from law school could you try for an internship near them and take them up on the offer? It might do you a world of good. Get out of the abuse under your mom's roof and have fun with friend. It might give you the support you need to work on being nice to your self. Hugs and hang in there.
LonelyTiger Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 Actually, besides any physical conditions, I believe depression would never have happened in the first place if we had our thought processes/self talk in check and in control. Clinical depression is a physical condition. Obviously we are all responsible for looking after ourselves physically and mentally but, other than eating well and getting plenty of exercise etc we don't actually have control over our brain chemistry any more than we do over things that go wrong in our body. That's why drugs are used to treat depression. They correct the chemical imbalance. Positive thinking and affirmations can be helpful for feelings of sadness and low mood, but not for depression.
mikeymad Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 The chemical imbalance theory is just that...theory. There is no test to prove there is an imbalance. And besides, they just came out with a study that says that antidepressants are no more effective than a placebo, and the potential side effects are far worse than any possible benefits - which INCLUDE depressive, suicidal, and homicidal tendencies...the same things they were meant to prevent.
LonelyTiger Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 The chemical imbalance theory is just that...theory. There is no test to prove there is an imbalance. And besides, they just came out with a study that says that antidepressants are no more effective than a placebo, and the potential side effects are far worse than any possible benefits - which INCLUDE depressive, suicidal, and homicidal tendencies...the same things they were meant to prevent. The entire scientific world is based on 'theory' and even scientific 'facts' have, years later, been disproved. We aren't sure yet what causes cancer but that doesn't make it any less real a physical illness. I wasn't intending to start a discussion about the rights and wrongs of anti-depressants, there are other places on the forum to do that and this is Lisa's thread. My point is that positive thinking is about as useful for serious cases of depression as it is for a physical illness such as cancer. I know there is a school of thought that says we can cure ourselves of anything just by thinking the right thoughts but, personally, I don't buy it.
dgiirl Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 My point is that positive thinking is about as useful for serious cases of depression as it is for a physical illness such as cancer. In Lisa's case, and a lot of others who have and are suffering through depression caused by divorce or a breakup, it's usually the very first thing that _needs_ to be under control. From Lisa's posts, she beats herself up very badly. Her thoughts are all over the place and she constantly repeats back that she is "not good enough", things she heard her ex and mother say to her. They were wrong for saying it. She's even more wrong for continuing to repeat it to herself internally 24/7. If you are constantly telling yourself you are ugly, fat, worthless, unlovable, nothing you do is good enough, you are going to suffer from depression. That depression is not due to a chemical imbalance, it's due to your internal dialogue. Get that under control first, and then see if the depression lifts. It's not easy to have your thoughts under control as we're not consciously aware 24/7. And for a lot of us, negative self talk has become a habit. As soon as we stop being consciously aware of ourselves, we do what is habit. Breaking that habit and replacing it with something positive is very hard work. But just because it's hard, does not negate the fact that it needs to be done.
silverfish Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 Hi Lisa I've just PMd you with an idea....won't post it here, but I just thought what I'd do in your situation and remembered that actually....I did do it about 15 years ago when i was stuck living with my Dad. Anyway, it's just an idea xx
sumdude Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Sometimes it seems to be the hardest thing to do. To change how you think, particularly about yourself. When deep in a depression it's possible anti depressants can help with symptoms mostly to make the rest of the work easier. What works for me, and I've struggled on and off with depression for a lot of my life. Particularly after my wife left me and the death of my parents. First I have to catch myself and my mind going down those negative paths. When I hear my mind saying something negative about me.. I stop and ask myself. Would I say that to my best friend? and even more powerful.. Would I say that to a child? If your gut says no way then you know you're hurting yourself. You know that those thoughts may not even be your own but planted there by someone or something. It's a daily struggle and as you practice it gets better. It's especially hard when there's such negative reinforcement around.
dgiirl Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Would I say that to my best friend? Exactly Sumdude! I did the same thing for almost my entire life, but more so during my marriage and divorce. When I went to a psychologist, I learned about anxiety and depression, and was able to learn to spot the symptoms of them. I then started to pay close attention of my own human behavior and realized some of the things I had told myself had been extremely cruel and I would never had said them to my worst enemy yet I was saying them to myself. Being aware you are doing it is the first step. Second is trying to catch yourself while you are doing it and then challenging the truth of those thoughts. If the statements had some truth to them, I changed. I use to be a bit judgmental and very strict in my beliefs of what was right and wrong. I changed. If they had no truth to them, I stopped thinking them. I use to think I was mean and ugly because my ex thought and said those of me. But when I challenged myself for the truth, I knew deep down I had a good heart and I was very pretty, and several other people in my life contradicted him in those beliefs. I wish Lisa was here to read her own thread. In any regard, I hope I am helping any others who are reading this.
LonelyTiger Posted March 26, 2010 Posted March 26, 2010 Sumdude and dgiirl, I think we're talking about different things here. What you seem to be talking about is negative self talk, putting yourself down, low self esteem etc, which obviously relates very much to what Lisa is doing to herself and can definitely result in someone feeling very low. As you rightly say, it is possible, for some people to help themselves with 'depression' that is 'caused' by this type of thinking just by being more positive. What I'm talking about is clinical depression, which often has no apparent cause. My argument is that it is a 'physical' illness in that the brain is malfunctioning. It can sometimes be triggered by life events, but may appear for no reason in an individual who has an apparently otherwise very 'happy', secure and fulfilled life. The fact that Lisa still seems to be functioning well ie attending college and working towards exams etc suggests that she is not clinically depressed and therefore 'positive thinking' might help in her case. However, as well meaning as you guys obviously are, I suspect that isn't what Lisa needs right now. The fact that she hasn't returned to the forum for days, since the 'positive thinking' discussion started, actually concerns me greatly. Lisa if you are still following this thread, please post to let us know you are ok. Some of the advice you get on here may seems a little tough at times, but we all mean well and we are still here for you. What your ex did to you (yes, he is the bad guy) has obviously severly damaged your already fragile self esteem. I would strongly recommend that you get into long term therapy, because your low self esteem and your relationship with your mother really need to be dealt with before you will ever be truly happy in your life. Big hugs to you Lisa, I hope you're ok. {{{{{Lisa}}}}}
tojaz Posted March 26, 2010 Posted March 26, 2010 Ummmmm, enjoying reading the debate here, but does anyone else notice somebody missing from this thread all of a sudden?????? Lis, I hope your alright. Big hug for you, and drop me a line if you need to. My thoughts are with you. TOJAZ
tojaz Posted March 26, 2010 Posted March 26, 2010 Sometimes it seems to be the hardest thing to do. To change how you think, particularly about yourself. When deep in a depression it's possible anti depressants can help with symptoms mostly to make the rest of the work easier. What works for me, and I've struggled on and off with depression for a lot of my life. Particularly after my wife left me and the death of my parents. First I have to catch myself and my mind going down those negative paths. When I hear my mind saying something negative about me.. I stop and ask myself. Would I say that to my best friend? and even more powerful.. Would I say that to a child? If your gut says no way then you know you're hurting yourself. You know that those thoughts may not even be your own but planted there by someone or something. It's a daily struggle and as you practice it gets better. It's especially hard when there's such negative reinforcement around. Great post Sumdude!
dgiirl Posted March 26, 2010 Posted March 26, 2010 Sumdude and dgiirl, I think we're talking about different things here. To be honest, I don't even know why you are going on a tangent about clinical depression when you even acknowledge you do not think that is the current issue. Lisa, if you perceived anything I said as harshly, then I apologize for that perception but I truly did not say anything that was harsh. If this is indeed the cause of your absence, then I strongly strongly encourage you to seek professional help no matter the cost.
LonelyTiger Posted March 26, 2010 Posted March 26, 2010 To be honest, I don't even know why you are going on a tangent about clinical depression when you even acknowledge you do not think that is the current issue. Initially I was just responding to something you said a while back about depression not happening in the first place if we don't allow ourselves to think negative thoughts. I disagree with what you said and then somebody disagreed with what I said. Hence the discussion. I personally wouldn't use the word 'depression' to describe low mood or sadness. OK, I realise I can be a little argumentative at times! Getting back to Lisa, I don't think any of us can be sure whether she is actually depressed or not but I do believe that when somebody is feeling very low, talks about being out of control, helpless and worthless and makes comments such as this: I'm so sick of life, I wish I could just die, everyone would be better off without me anyway, all I ever get is complaints, I'm never going to be f****g good enough so why bother to keep trying, why bother to try at all. I don't believe it is helpful to suggest that this person should try to be more positive. Just my opinion.
Author LisaUk Posted March 26, 2010 Author Posted March 26, 2010 Lisa, I'm really looking forward to when you finally get some counseling (I know you've been on a waiting list forever). I think you'll really see some pieces of the puzzle falling into place when you get to talk things out, if you're willing to do some digging into your past with an open mind etc. Hi SHB, I'm too scared to get counselling in any case, I am frightened that my fears that my ex leaving was my fault will be confirmed. Dgirl, thanks for the advice I have a book recommended by the counsellor I had by intial assessments with about overcoming low SE using Cognitive behavioural thearpy which is essentially what you are suggesting I follow. I can't see it working though, I have tried to catch my thoughts when alone or when with others and it doesn't matter how much I tell myself I am a good person and that it is the other person who has the problem, b/c it isn't the other person, it is me. I know it is me b/c everyone reactes to me in the same way. Just the other day I was dreadfully upset by a girl on my course, I didn't think I was complaining, I was just talking and she turned round in front of the whole class and said "I have never heard anyone complain as much as you do". As much as I tell myself she is the one with the problem, it must be me, b/c why else would she say it. My ex didn't treat me badly or put me down or lower my self esteem or abuse me or any of those things you said. I was very happy with him, the happest I have ever been in my entire life, he was very caring, supportive, nurturing, loving and positive towards me. I had no idea he was unahppy until he left. I had no idea I wasn't good enough for him until he left. I should have tried harder, I should have known he wasn't happy, I lost the best thing in my life and I only have myself to blame, somehow I have to live with that knowledge. Anyway, my exams start in six weeks time, I have invested a year and by the end of next years course £13,000 in tuition fees alone so I can't afford to mess this up, everything else is going to have to wait.
trippi1432 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Lisa, Good luck on your exams....there is nothing abnormal about priorities. Get the studies done....the people who care know that is first and foremost. Study hard hun...I have confidence in you. I'm on my last class as well....can't wait until it's done...I will get MY LIFE back.....:D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes: Wait....that means if I had one....LOL. Surely, it will be much different....but what was once for many is now for myself and my kids. I'm good with that.
dgiirl Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 (edited) Initially I was just responding to something you said a while back about depression not happening in the first place if we don't allow ourselves to think negative thoughts. I disagree with what you said and then somebody disagreed with what I said. Hence the discussion. I personally wouldn't use the word 'depression' to describe low mood or sadness. OK, I realise I can be a little argumentative at times! I do believe my words were besides any physical conditions, meaning any brain chemical imbalances, most of the depression is stemmed from our internal dialogue. Depression is not only caused by chemical imbalances but also because of your environment and self esteem. What are symptoms of depression? According to the National Institute of Mental Health, symptoms of depression may include the following: * difficulty concentrating, remembering details, and making decisions * fatigue and decreased energy * feelings of guilt, worthlessness, and/or helplessness * feelings of hopelessness and/or pessimism * insomnia, early-morning wakefulness, or excessive sleeping * irritability, restlessness * loss of interest in activities or hobbies once pleasurable, including sex * overeating or appetite loss * persistent aches or pains, headaches, cramps, or digestive problems that do not ease even with treatment * persistent sad, anxious, or "empty" feelings * thoughts of suicide, suicide attempts Getting back to Lisa, I don't think any of us can be sure whether she is actually depressed or not but I do believe that when somebody is feeling very low, talks about being out of control, helpless and worthless and makes comments such as this: I don't believe it is helpful to suggest that this person should try to be more positive. Just my opinion. I think you are misunderstanding my advice. I'm not simply saying "Smile, Be happy. Just think positive thoughts and you'll be fine". But I AM saying pay attention to your internal dialogue. Ask yourself why you would tell yourself you are worthless, ugly, unlovable, you deserved your ex to leave you? Would you tell that to a complete stranger, especially one who is heartbroken? Besides, what is the alternative advice? Encourage her to self abuse? No matter how many people on this forum have told her she's worthy and her ex was a fool, she will never believe us. She wont allow herself until she changes her internal dialogue. I'm too scared to get counselling in any case, I am frightened that my fears that my ex leaving was my fault will be confirmed. Lisa, even IF that would happen, finding out the _truth_ cannot be that much worse off than the blame and pain you are putting on yourself right now. At least with professional help, you will be able to find out why it happened, and even more importantly, how to prevent it in the future. You've been through so much heartache and misery already, don't you think SOMETHING positive should come out of all this? Learning something about yourself and how to prevent it from happening in the future? Wouldn't that at least make the pain and suffering worth it? Otherwise, you are just going through all this pain in vain? Not even taking just one small lesson from it all? Dgirl, thanks for the advice I have a book recommended by the counsellor I had by intial assessments with about overcoming low SE using Cognitive behavioural thearpy which is essentially what you are suggesting I follow. I can't see it working though, I have tried to catch my thoughts when alone or when with others and it doesn't matter how much I tell myself I am a good person and that it is the other person who has the problem, b/c it isn't the other person, it is me. I know it is me b/c everyone reactes to me in the same way. Just the other day I was dreadfully upset by a girl on my course, I didn't think I was complaining, I was just talking and she turned round in front of the whole class and said "I have never heard anyone complain as much as you do". As much as I tell myself she is the one with the problem, it must be me, b/c why else would she say it. Lisa, you are a very intelligent logical person. You are right. There are going to be times where telling yourself "it's not you it's them" will not work. It will not work because some time's there are other lessons in the situations we need to learn. Sometimes it might be you. Sometimes you might have to ask yourself "Why did she perceive me as complaining? Was I complaining? If I was in her shoes, would I think I was complaining? Could I have reworded my request differently to not give the impression of complaining? Do I give a ****? :)" This doesn't mean it's ALWAYS you with the problem. And this does not give you the right to berate yourself with self negative talk for the next few days. Simply take the situation for what it should be, a chance to do some self evaluation, take some small positive lesson from it, and then drop it and move on. Let me ask you, how long were you upset about this situation? A few minutes? Hours? Days? How long did you replay the situation in your head, doing a she said, you said and what you should have said? A few minutes? Hours? Days? My point is, if you were replaying the incident in your head for hours or days, then you are doing self harm. If you were telling yourself for hours or days, "she's right, I'm a complainer, I hate myself, I'm not good enough", you are doing self harm. You MUST catch your internal dialogue when you are doing self harm. You cannot tell yourself you are not good enough. You cannot tell yourself you are unworthy, that you deserve your ex leaving you, that you lost the best thing in your life, that you will never find love or happiness again, and that you want to kill yourself. These specific statements do NOTHING for you except hurt you more. Every time you indulge in these statements, you are taking a knife into your soul. It's extremely damaging and very abusive, and it MUST stop. My ex didn't treat me badly or put me down or lower my self esteem or abuse me or any of those things you said. I was very happy with him, the happest I have ever been in my entire life, he was very caring, supportive, nurturing, loving and positive towards me. I had no idea he was unahppy until he left. I had no idea I wasn't good enough for him until he left. I should have tried harder, I should have known he wasn't happy, I lost the best thing in my life and I only have myself to blame, somehow I have to live with that knowledge. Lisa, that is not entirely true. He did not always put you first. From what you've told us, he barely put you first, and whenever he did, he made you feel guilty about it. He sounded very passive aggressive. I'm not saying you're an angel and he is the devil, but you still have rose tinted glasses when you think of him. You don't see the real him, the one who had his own issues. Give yourself a break. You did the best at the time that you knew how to do, and now that you know better, you'll do better. Noone is perfect so give yourself permission to stop trying. Learn life lessons like the rest of us. You make a mistake, learn something positive about it, and move on. Edited March 27, 2010 by dgiirl
Gunny376 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 What is being discussed here IMHO is a concept termed "Self Talk" http://stress.about.com/od/optimismspirituality/a/positiveselftak.htm It easy but so very hard to master, in that in the beginning "E=r and then with discipline, effort and a hell of a lot of hard work? "e=R" That is to say that in the beginning "E" = a tremendous amount of effort and hard work, but with time it becomes "e" in which it requires very little effort to yield "R" (HUGH results) but with determination and a a whole lot of hard work? The equation reverses itself. Its applicable to almost any human endeavor. Getting over an X, quitting smoking, quiting drinking, drugs, exercise, losing weight, training for a marathon, etc. Its not easy! And it requires a lot of determination, preservarnce, discipline. There are books on the subject. IMHO what I think is going on with you Lisa is on the one hand your need to excell (and having the capacity to do so) combined with your never being good enough to satisfy your Mother combined with your relationship wth the X? I've read that marriage, (which even though you never were with the X was the same thing?) is about completing your childhood.
Gunny376 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 As for Lisa's absece from the fourm? General rule of thumb for college (We're talking undergrads here) 1 hour of classroom time = a minimum of three hours out of class study time. For law school? X's 6 hours or more! They don't call it the "Paper Chase" for nothing! She is studying for exams you know!
soheartbroken Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Hi SHB, I'm too scared to get counselling in any case, I am frightened that my fears that my ex leaving was my fault will be confirmed. Hi Lisa, First, reading this makes me really concerned, because up until now my belief has been that you have been looking forward to talking to a therapist/counselor. Second, please know this: the reason MY ex left was MY fault. Everything you wrote about having a loving, caring, and supportive ex is exactly what I've written time and time again (and I know you know this because you've followed my threads). I blew it, okay? But it doesn't have to be the end of the world. So, even if it was your fault (and I'm not saying it is/was), it's not the be all end all. And to tell you the truth, therapy shouldn't be about assigning blame. It's about learning about yourself.
Gunny376 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 I know it is me b/c everyone reacts to me in the same way. Just the other day I was dreadfully upset by a girl on my course, I didn't think I was complaining, I was just talking and she turned round in front of the whole class and said "I have never heard anyone complain as much as you do". As much as I tell myself she is the one with the problem, it must be me, b/c why else would she say it. Your just going to have to come to terms with the fact that there are some mean people out there in life. (Especially when it comes to women with women) They're just waiting outside of your front door with baseball bats to beat you up? Just to see the look on your face as they do so? I use to work under a guy who had absolutely zero people skills. All he had to do was say "Good Morning" and he would PMO! It was so bad that the company paid for him to take college level classes in communication, speech, and even a psychologist. The only reason they put up with him and didn't fire him was because of his technical skills, knowledge and expertise in the field.
Gunny376 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Hi Lisa, First, reading this makes me really concerned, because up until now my belief has been that you have been looking forward to talking to a therapist/counselor. Second, please know this: the reason MY ex left was MY fault. Everything you wrote about having a loving, caring, and supportive ex is exactly what I've written time and time again (and I know you know this because you've followed my threads). I blew it, okay? But it doesn't have to be the end of the world. So, even if it was your fault (and I'm not saying it is/was), it's not the be all end all. And to tell you the truth, therapy shouldn't be about assigning blame. It's about learning about yourself. NO! NO! NO! DAMNIT NO! Its not all your fault that's the reason the X left! Its because you lacked the communication, relationship skills that you needed to pull it off to begin with? Where in tha' Hell were you ever taught them? Elementary school? Middle School? How about High School? Oh surely they taught any and everything you needed to be successful in a relationship, about communication? "The Five Languages of Love" surely was required reading in the nineth grade? God forbid that there's a different acceptable model of compaionship/ relationships other than "I Leave It To Beaver!" Quit beating yourselfs up!
tojaz Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Hey SHB read this over and over and over. NO! NO! NO! DAMNIT NO! Its not all your fault that's the reason the X left! Quit beating yourselfs up! Hey Lisa, read this over and over and over. NO! NO! NO! DAMNIT NO! Its not all your fault that's the reason the X left! Quit beating yourselfs up! Nothing else matters but this. They made the decision to leave! Not you. Excuses, story, dosent matter because in the end it lies with them. Things are bad you work it out, youu talk, you share your troubles! Did they? Are they on LS trying to work it out, trying to better themselves? No!!!!! You are! Not only is it not all your fault, nor is it even mostly your fault. Own whats yours and let the quitters have the rest. Your the ones taking the hard road, your the the ones doing it right by exploring what happened as painful as it is rather then hiding in the shadows. Be proud of yourselves dammit! The hurt now will pay huge dividends later! That being a wiser and stronger you! TOJAZ
nobmagnet Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Hey SHB read this over and over and over. Hey Lisa, read this over and over and over. Nothing else matters but this. They made the decision to leave! Not you. Excuses, story, dosent matter because in the end it lies with them. Things are bad you work it out, youu talk, you share your troubles! Did they? Are they on LS trying to work it out, trying to better themselves? No!!!!! You are! Not only is it not all your fault, nor is it even mostly your fault. Own whats yours and let the quitters have the rest. Your the ones taking the hard road, your the the ones doing it right by exploring what happened as painful as it is rather then hiding in the shadows. Be proud of yourselves dammit! The hurt now will pay huge dividends later! That being a wiser and stronger you! TOJAZ Yes Yes. We ALL have faults. And LISA...........you admitted yourself that you had no idea he was unhappy.............because..............HE DIDNT TELL YOU!!!!! Please explain how you could have know?? Telepathy?? No it was HIS fault he didnt communicate his feelings and have given you the oppertunity to work through it. Im no way are you to blame for his failings. His harsh words after he left and excuses are IMO appeasing his guilt and failings. He has re-written the relationship history and you are left bewildered because what he said to you is not true. If you saw a chink of truth in it you would have accepted it by now. Just my thoughts and good luck with the exams. My offer still holds you are welcome to stay here whenever xxx Nobby xx
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