Came home early

[Lizzie60]

Well Jeff.. there is hope for you afterall..

 

Who knows.. therapy might work for a while... but methink after the therapy is done.. a few months then the bad habits come back.. this will be a lot of work for both of you.. and if therapy is working.. then you might need to go back again.. that can happen and it's OK.. sometimes it takes more than one attempt to work.. (it's like quitting smoking)...

 

Anyway.. I wish you all the best with her.. honestly.. I feel you are a great guy and you need a great woman by your side..

[HeyThere]

No, it's not... otherwise she would have had sex with him, that night, or there and then... there are too many issues - which we don't know about - that are stopping her from having sex with her husband. Only Jeff will know them or probably not even Jeff. There is a very tense/power struggle situation going on in the family and until she comes clean - maybe through MC - there is no hope. Believe me... I've been there...

 

This is a power struggle. That is why I encouraged Jeff to “stick to his guns” and he still needs to stay strong. Is his wife ready to turn a new leaf (gosh, I love metaphors), only the two will know in time. As Trimmer said there was a spark, recognition, an acknowledgement of poor attitudes and behavior. Jeff mentioned that his wife rarely owns her mistakes, so yes this was huge on her part. To envision the future with his wife in a better place, Jeff needs to believe. It doesn’t mean he (and she) won’t have doubts (healthy), it means they are willing to dig deep together and solve the issues. The issues are many on both sides of the equation.

[She's_NotInLove_w/Me]

I got home late tonite. Busy day. Long day. My wife immediatley told me that she did not want to move out, that she was just angry last nite. I told her that I was angry at the time as well.

 

I guess she has really been thinking about what I told her concerning me thinking about other women over our lack of sex. I could have chosen better words when I told her this. I have a habit of being brutally honest and at times it does backfire.

 

She told me that this is all she can think about now. She's upset because she thinks that I WANT to screw other women. I reassured her that this is not the case. I followed the posters advice (too tired to look back thru thread but thank you) that said a better way to have put this was that; "I love you and I only want to be with you but our lack of sex is a concern to me". After I told her this she started to cry. One of the few times that she told me she was sorry. I've really hurt her over this. This is why she started a fight with me last nite.

 

We've agreed to counseling. I'm still not totally convinced that things will change but I will give it a shot because I DO WANT to save my marriage.

 

I started getting emotional reading this...

 

I am glad to hear things are looking up for you Jeff. One thing I was recently reminded of in my marriage (this morning as a matter of fact); it sort of goes back to your other thread enititled "for the men." You can only control your emotions, words, reactions and attitude. Put all of your heart and soul into this; you deserve it (your wife does too). Don't worry if she seems negative in any way (reserved, holding back, sad, or otherwise), if you continue to choose a postive attitude and hope for nothing but the best (for you as a couple), things will be much more likely to work out that way.

 

I am sure that you are no angel, but for the near future, you are going to have to try yuor hardest to be one...

 

Good Luck!

Edited February 6, 2010 by She's_NotInLove_w/Me

[soserious1]

Oh and fyi, this is utter horse poo. Her posts DO provoke me, because she routinely engages in sexual relationships with men who are taken and has no remorse for her actions. So no, it's not immature, it is MY right.

 

Your anger is misplaced IMHO.. Lizzie isn't married, she's not cheating on anybody, nor is she lying to anyone, if her partners are married the wrong doing is all on them IMHO.

[She's_NotInLove_w/Me]

Your anger is misplaced IMHO.. Lizzie isn't married, she's not cheating on anybody, nor is she lying to anyone, if her partners are married the wrong doing is all on them IMHO.

 

I am not commenting on the lizzie60 / sharla dynamic, but in general, anyone who engages in a relationship with an individual who they are aware is married, is just as wrong the married cheater...

 

Just my humble opinion I guess, but the moment one hears that the person they are interested in is married - it is their responsibility to run the other way (and run as fast as they can). Too many fish in the ocean to worry about fish that (are supposed to) belong to someone else.

[Jeff1962]

This is such a roller coaster. Good God, what next?. I'm only writing because it helps a little.

 

Long story short. I told my wife that I want her to go ahead and move out at the end of the month or soon thereafter. I thought we had maybe made a break thru but I guess I was wrong.

 

I'm sitting next to my wife and all I hear is her whine and talk about herself. Then I thought about how she never asks how I am doing. I'm sitting there thinking that I don't even know you anymore.

 

She told me to come to bed with her, in which I did. This was a total disaster. I'm nobody's fool, I can tell when there is no passion, when it is just going thru the motions. Not even going to get into details. I stopped it dead in it's tracks. Ppbbbffffttttttttt.

 

Screw this crap. I still love her but this is not healthy. I am not happy, I'm sure she is unhappy as well.

 

 

I would like to thank all of you for your comments and support. These both have helped me a great deal.

[giotto]

This is such a roller coaster. Good God, what next?. I'm only writing because it helps a little.

 

Long story short. I told my wife that I want her to go ahead and move out at the end of the month or soon thereafter. I thought we had maybe made a break thru but I guess I was wrong.

 

I'm sitting next to my wife and all I hear is her whine and talk about herself. Then I thought about how she never asks how I am doing. I'm sitting there thinking that I don't even know you anymore.

 

She told me to come to bed with her, in which I did. This was a total disaster. I'm nobody's fool, I can tell when there is no passion, when it is just going thru the motions. Not even going to get into details. I stopped it dead in it's tracks. Ppbbbffffttttttttt.

 

Screw this crap. I still love her but this is not healthy. I am not happy, I'm sure she is unhappy as well.

 

 

I would like to thank all of you for your comments and support. These both have helped me a great deal.

 

If you really love her, you owe your marriage, your wife, yourself and your kids a last chance. Go to MC. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain...

[Angel1111]

That has to be the most hollow feeling in the world, Jeff. There is truly a huge disconnect here. I wouldn't be able to tolerate this kind of thing, either. Sex is such a basic in a relationship, and it has now become the white elephant in the room. Time to move on.

[Lizzie60]

Oh shoot.. I just read your last post Jeff...

 

To be totally honest.. I don't believe there is hope in your case.. it's reached a point of no return....

 

I talked about therapy earlier.. but I don,t think it would solve any problems in the long run.. it might but just for a verrry short while (weeks, maybe a few months at the most)...

 

I feel there is no love anymore from her part.. (I've been there)... once the love is gone.. it's gone.. it cannot be revived.. sorry.

 

I bet you will both be much happier each on your own... sometimes two people become the best friend after their divorce (separation)... it happened to me.. I'm friend with ALL my 'exes'...

 

No one can force someone else to love them... do yourself a favour, move on with your life..

 

ps.. I still think I was right about the 'fake O'...

[HeyThere]

If you really love her, you owe your marriage, your wife, yourself and your kids a last chance. Go to MC. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain...

 

Jeff is saying his wife isn’t committed to making the repairs necessary to move forward.

 

Stay strong.

[Jeff1962]

That has to be the most hollow feeling in the world, Jeff. There is truly a huge disconnect here. I wouldn't be able to tolerate this kind of thing, either. Sex is such a basic in a relationship, and it has now become the white elephant in the room. Time to move on.

 

It is a very hollow feeling. Sex should flow between two people that are in love, there should be passion. That's one huge white elephant.

 

I agree although it hurts. Time to set eachother free and move on.

 

Thank you.

[Jeff1962]

Oh shoot.. I just read your last post Jeff...

 

To be totally honest.. I don't believe there is hope in your case.. it's reached a point of no return....

 

I talked about therapy earlier.. but I don,t think it would solve any problems in the long run.. it might but just for a verrry short while (weeks, maybe a few months at the most)...

 

I feel there is no love anymore from her part.. (I've been there)... once the love is gone.. it's gone.. it cannot be revived.. sorry.

 

I bet you will both be much happier each on your own... sometimes two people become the best friend after their divorce (separation)... it happened to me.. I'm friend with ALL my 'exes'...

 

No one can force someone else to love them... do yourself a favour, move on with your life..

 

ps.. I still think I was right about the 'fake O'...

 

I know she loves me Lizzie. It's weird though. I think we will both be much happier in the long run. It hurts really bad because I thought that I would spend the rest of my life with this woman. Right now I could really care less about the fake O as you call them. There are more important issues at hand, i.e., my marriage is ending, HELLO here.

[Jeff1962]

If you really love her, you owe your marriage, your wife, yourself and your kids a last chance. Go to MC. You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain...

 

I will still go to MC but I still want her to move out. I am willing to get to the bottom of the "why's" so that neither of us repeat this but I really think it's over. I know this might sound a bit confusing but I really don't want to tear my family apart but I think I want it to be over. I've seen what divorce CAN do to kids and some of it is nasty. On the other hand, are my wife and I showing our children that it's ok to stay in an unhealthy relationship? If this goes thru, I do not plan on being nasty. I don't want to hurt anyone.

 

I deserve to be loved, I deserve to be with someone who has passion for me. I deserve to be with someone who is into making me happy.

 

Now today we have people coming over for the Superbowl. I'm going to have to put on my happy face.

[Blindsidedagainalive]

You have JUST posted how you went to bed with your wife and were expecting intimacy and sex....that your wife and you would suddenly resolve your problems.

 

You have ALSO recently posted about a fight the two of you had in which hard words were exchanged.

 

I have ALSO read some posters opinions that have FLUCTUATED between staying in leaving over the course of just a few days!

 

People (including your wife) are not light switches. If issues are present, you cannot expect them simply resolved themselves......and certainly not from day to day. Resolving this will take hard work and time.

 

THE TWO OF YOU ARE NOT CAPABLE OF RESOLVING THIS USING YOUR CURRENT METHODS.

 

Your wife is acting / responding in a way that is unacceptable to you.

That does NOT mean the issue she has is with you........it's BETWEEN you.

 

You are taking her rejections personally, which I can very much understand.

 

However, they MAY be resolvable. You don't KNOW all of her issues. You have PTSD......but she likely has her own issues. If codependency is present in your relationship, she likely is acting in kind to her side of it.

 

DO NOT GIVE UP ON YOUR RELATIONSHIP OVER THE ISSUES YOU HAVE DESCRIBED IN YOUR POSTS.

 

Also, own your OWN side of present issues. How does your behaviour /interaction play into the relationship dynamics? You will identify this through therapy and intraspection.

 

If you work on this with your wife via therapy/retreats/reading/ etc, you will ABSOLUTELY gain/grow from this. It does not mean your relationship will be saved. The effort/struggle/challenge is what you will grow from.

 

PS- Ignore Lizzie60, she has her own issues including a preoccupation with sex. For her to discuss 'fake o' with a man who is in despair is quite odd, and lacks basic empathy.

[Ronni_W]

Sex should flow between two people that are in love, there should be passion.

In a happy, loving, mutually caring and supportive relationship it would be so.

 

But you guys have not had that. Clumsy sex, and awkward conversations, and feeling rather alien with each other are necessarily going to be part of you guys working towards something better. It's the price, really, of even trying to see if you can try to decide if you can try to get back to having a happy, loving, mutually caring and supportive relationship with each other.

 

Whether or not she moves out, if it is your plan to try for a genuine, long-lasting reconciliation...then you're gonna also have to do your part. Which does mean feeling rather alien with her at times, and participating in awkward conversations, and engaging in clumsy sex.

 

To expect effortless, passionate sex at this point, or even in the foreseeable future, is unrealistic and unreasonable. But that does not mean that you two can't get there...if you're both willing to put in the effort and experience some discomfort during the 'rebuilding' phase.

 

To me, your wife made the effort; she decided that, even though it might be far less than she or you deserve as individuals, she was willing to start rebuilding WITH YOU. I strongly suspect that she knew it was going to be clumsy and...pedestrian. And yet she was willing to do that, anyway.

 

It would have been okay to offer some appreciation for the fact that she at least tried. IMHO.

[mem11363]

You deserve to be loved

 

Your kids need to see the way healthy people react when they are no longer loved - which is they end things in a civilized manner

 

You have accepted something really key - your wife seems completely unconcerned about how bad YOU feel - for whatever reason she is completely self focused

 

The most impressive thing about this whole situation is that you want to do MC to avoid a repeat of this outcome in the future with your next long term relationship. I also hope the MC helps you part more amicably....

 

 

 

 

I will still go to MC but I still want her to move out. I am willing to get to the bottom of the "why's" so that neither of us repeat this but I really think it's over. I know this might sound a bit confusing but I really don't want to tear my family apart but I think I want it to be over. I've seen what divorce CAN do to kids and some of it is nasty. On the other hand, are my wife and I showing our children that it's ok to stay in an unhealthy relationship? If this goes thru, I do not plan on being nasty. I don't want to hurt anyone.

 

I deserve to be loved, I deserve to be with someone who has passion for me. I deserve to be with someone who is into making me happy.

 

Now today we have people coming over for the Superbowl. I'm going to have to put on my happy face.

[Lizzie60]

I know she loves me Lizzie. It's weird though. I think we will both be much happier in the long run. It hurts really bad because I thought that I would spend the rest of my life with this woman. Right now I could really care less about the fake O as you call them. There are more important issues at hand, i.e., my marriage is ending, HELLO here.

 

 

Yes I agree that there are more important issues here.. for sure...

 

My advice still stands though.. this is beyond repairable.. trust me.. move on.. in an amicable way... everybody will beneficiate in the long run...

 

Good luck...

[mem11363]

Ronni,

I would agree with your post if it weren't for the context. She only did this when he told her he wanted her to move out. She really does seem unconcerned with how awful he feels unless it is immediately tied to something bad happening to her. I don't think she offered sex as an olive branch at all. Simply as an eviction avoidance step. Also there is a big difference between having a lack of lust and having a lack of love. I am betting on Jeff here. I am betting that if his wife had been very loving - even if she wasn't overflowing with lust - he would have felt good about what was happening. Sounds like she was in the mode of "can we have sex so you can stop talking about evicting me"

 

I give Jeff a lot of credit here. He is not looking to come - he wants to feel loved. Totally different.

 

 

In a happy, loving, mutually caring and supportive relationship it would be so.

 

But you guys have not had that. Clumsy sex, and awkward conversations, and feeling rather alien with each other are necessarily going to be part of you guys working towards something better. It's the price, really, of even trying to see if you can try to decide if you can try to get back to having a happy, loving, mutually caring and supportive relationship with each other.

 

Whether or not she moves out, if it is your plan to try for a genuine, long-lasting reconciliation...then you're gonna also have to do your part. Which does mean feeling rather alien with her at times, and participating in awkward conversations, and engaging in clumsy sex.

 

To expect effortless, passionate sex at this point, or even in the foreseeable future, is unrealistic and unreasonable. But that does not mean that you two can't get there...if you're both willing to put in the effort and experience some discomfort during the 'rebuilding' phase.

 

To me, your wife made the effort; she decided that, even though it might be far less than she or you deserve as individuals, she was willing to start rebuilding WITH YOU. I strongly suspect that she knew it was going to be clumsy and...pedestrian. And yet she was willing to do that, anyway.

 

It would have been okay to offer some appreciation for the fact that she at least tried. IMHO.

[carhill]

She really does seem unconcerned with how awful he feels unless it is immediately tied to something bad happening to her. I don't think she offered sex as an olive branch at all. Simply as an eviction avoidance step.

 

I can relate to that, as my stbx went cold and silent once she got the house she wanted. Once that was a done deal (it was to be a relocation compromise to work on the M), she withdrew. I'm liking Lizzie's advice. End it amicably.

[Ronni_W]

mem,

I agree with much of what you're saying, as well.

Bigger context is that Wife has been kept completely in the dark about what has been driving -- and haunting -- Jeff.

 

I'm not pretending to know what it's been like in that household...for either of them. To my mind, it must have been EQUALLY difficult on both of them, even though they were experiencing/living from "opposite sides of the same coin", so to speak.

 

At the same time as it cannot be easy to be suffering from horrendously traumatic memories and working feverishly to keep the seriously negative effects of those memories secret, it also cannot be easy to live with the person who, not only is suffering from horrendously traumatic memories but is also working feverishly to keep the seriously negative effects of those memories secret.

 

I would suspect that much of how Wife is currently seeing and doing things are nothing more than her maladaptive ways of coping with a husband she just does not know or understand anymore, and thus has no way of comforting or supporting. She was being called upon to make a good marriage and be a "good" wife without any of the critical information that she needed to be able to pull that off.

 

She has been in chaos and confusion just as much as Jeff. The same levels of chaos and confusion but, being on the opposite side of the coin, they've BOTH been blinded to what's going on for the other, and thus haven't been able to offer the other any empathy, understanding, comfort or support.

BOTH feeling powerless, helpless and like victims on their own, lonely sides. BOTH wanting to feel special, loved, important.

This is what I strongly suspect.

 

As I said in an earlier, it is the legacy of Jeff's tours of duty, and they are BOTH suffering from it. But Jeff is the only one who knows that. He has been keeping it from her...with noble intentions, yes, but it hasn't worked to protect her from anything.

 

Ronni,

I would agree with your post if it weren't for the context. She only did this when he told her he wanted her to move out. She really does seem unconcerned with how awful he feels unless it is immediately tied to something bad happening to her. I don't think she offered sex as an olive branch at all. Simply as an eviction avoidance step. Also there is a big difference between having a lack of lust and having a lack of love. I am betting on Jeff here. I am betting that if his wife had been very loving - even if she wasn't overflowing with lust - he would have felt good about what was happening. Sounds like she was in the mode of "can we have sex so you can stop talking about evicting me"

 

I give Jeff a lot of credit here. He is not looking to come - he wants to feel loved. Totally different.

[tinktronik]

No, no. I have often been angry with my wife and expressed this. This was the first time I cursed her out.

 

As many have said to not let her change her mind about moving out, I have no intention of stopping her. I even offered to help, to speed up the process.

 

I know that it's going to hurt real bad. I'm already hurting. I know it's going to get worse before it get's better.

 

I'm just done. I can't do this anymore. I'm ready to face my hurt once and for all, move on with my life, instead of living a lifetime of hurt. I love her with all my heart and would give almost anything to change this but I am now willing to face reality head on.

Nope... You're doing exactly the right thing. As a woman who's been in a sexless relationship with a man who withholds sex for far to long I will tell you it does not change... your spouse has weird sexual issues and there is nothing you can do to fix them.

 

Move on and find happiness. You can't get out that door too soon. I'm right behind you.

[giotto]

I still think you should go to MC... rejecting it for a reason which is not totally valid is not the way forward. If you two eventually split, you need to know that you've tried everything in your power... come on! You've been together 20 years! Just like myself and my wife. I'm not personally 100% happy with my relationship, but I've been where you are... I know it's a hollow feeling... but relax, forget about your anger and resentment. Think it through. Try and fix it and if it's not fixable, then take it from there. You'll learn a lot in MC... you need to know this, otherwise you''ll never have closure...

[bean1]

This is an interesting thread.

 

There are a lot of projections on here, from people who have been burned in divorce, and those who are engaged/married(?), still young, and still have 100% faith in marriage.

 

Jeff is not some confused youngster who suddenly wants to back out when things get tough. Please.

 

I think the most important thing to realize is that after 20 years, Jeff is no fool and neither is his wife. After so long together and after so many years on this planet, please give someone credit that they may come to an actualization about their own life. People go through a lot of things in life, and deciding to separate or divorce is not exactly "giving up" after 20 years, it may just be an acknowledgement of what should be.

[BlueeyedJonesy]

Jeff, you deserve to be loved passionately and whole heartedly. Every post I've ever read of yours has had so much feeling and I can tell that this is tearing you up...what have you decided to do? you can't live like this.

[Jeff1962]

Jeff, you deserve to be loved passionately and whole heartedly. Every post I've ever read of yours has had so much feeling and I can tell that this is tearing you up...what have you decided to do? you can't live like this.

 

Thank you so much. You are right, this is tearing me up. I still want her to move out. I'm going to stick by this decision no matter how deeply it hurts me. I wll agree to MC but after the sessions we will go to our own homes to reflect and work on ourselves. I do not want to see either one of us repeat this, whatever this is. My true wish it to work this out but I think I am just done with it for now. Maybe time will change my mind.

 

I would rather see my wife happy with someone else than miserable with me and vise versa. I can't believe I'm saying this. No matter what though, I will remain faithful to my wife even in separation, unto the end, if this is to be the outcome.