Came home early

[Angel1111]

Well if you can honestly say that after reading some of his responses, then all the power to you. Some of the posts comes across as a "take it or leave it or go fu*ck yourself" attitude, not sure where that comes from but that type of attitude won't survive in a relationship.

 

What's the deal, Sharla? You don't have sex with your husband so you're trying to make a case for yourself? It just makes me wonder because you seem to be pushing an agenda.

[Ronni_W]

Jeff,

This is more for "just in case" you guys can once again get on the same page in the future.

 

These issues, I keep to myself other than a counsler at the VA, they belong to me and to me alone. They have no right to be in my wife's head, to screw with her mind, like they do mine.

I agree with you...half way.

To me, the things that "screw with your mind", if kept secret, are the exact same things that end up screwing with your relationship and your marriage...and thus, end up screwing with your wife's mind in any case. Except, she never got the chance to know what it is, or find ways and help to deal with it for herself and for her marriage.

 

Not that you "should" or need to share all the 'gory details' with her but that, as the woman who committed to spending the rest of her life with you, she does have the privilege of knowing what keeps you up at night...in generalities, at the very least.

 

The vows that you two exchanged included promises to share ALL the significant and important things that would affect your relationship and your quality of a life together, "for better or for worse."

 

As your spouse, she is, IMO, entitled to all the information that will allow her to support you to the best of her abilities, through your "good and your bad."

 

YOU cannot function effectively, as a fully present, supportive, inspirational force in your marriage if you're also having to keep your fears and traumatic memories hidden...and without knowing what is driving you, neither can your wife be such a force.

 

I get that it is a terrible, terribly legacy of your tours of duty. I am sorry for your experiences.

 

Wishing you the outcomes that will support your long lasting happiness and peace.

[Trimmer]

That is an eye opening post, it really is.

 

But now roles reversed, say you were married, and your wife said to you "I am starting to look at other men sexually because you don't please me sexually and I have needs", "I won't do it, because I love you, but I really want that guy to f*uck me"....What would your response be, how would that make YOU feel?

I appreciate your hearing me with an open mind, and it's a fair question.

 

It's hard to say, because from what I read, I don't know if the bolded part accurately reflects his comment, and it hinges a lot on that. There's a difference between these two:

 

"I won't do it, because I love you, but I really want that guy to f**k me"

 

"I won't do it, because I love you and I really want our marriage to work, but I need you to know that this is a real problem for me"

 

Those are two very different statements - the first is, essentially, "I'm only holding back because we're married" and the other is "Look, this is how bad it's getting, and I want it to get better."

 

And in direct answer to your question, I would be alarmed either way, but if it were put the second way, there would be a much better chance that I would hear it as a wake-up call which I would respond to with honest concern, as opposed to the first way, which yes, I would hear as more of an aggressive cut.

 

We can't be sure how he said it - only he knows what was in his heart, but I originally read it as the latter. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

I do suspect, however, that even if his heart was in the right place, that she may well have not been open to hearing it that way...

Edited February 5, 2010 by Trimmer

[Sharla]

I appreciate your hearing me with an open mind, and it's a fair question.

 

It's hard to say, because from what I read of his comment, I don't know if the bolded part accurately reflects his comment, and it hinges a lot on that. There's a difference between these two:

 

"I won't do it, because I love you, but I really want that guy to f**k me"

 

"I won't do it, because I love you and I really want our marriage to work, but I need you to know that this is a real problem for me"

 

Those are two very different statements - the first is, essentially, "I'm only holding back because we're married" and the other is "Look, this is how bad it's getting, and I want it to get better."

 

And in direct answer to your question, I would be alarmed either way, but if it were put the second way, there would be a much better chance that I would hear it as a wake-up call which I would respond to with honest concern, as opposed to the first way, which yes, I would hear as more of an aggressive cut.

 

We can't be sure how he said it - only he knows what was in his heart, but I originally read it as the latter. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

I do suspect, however, that even if his heart was in the right place, that she may well have not been open to hearing it that way...

 

I think your pretty on target Trimmer. I gather that what led up to these statements, is at the heart of matter. And that needs to be explored in order for it to be resolved. Unfortunatly, sometimes it's too late and it's been 20 years for them so who knows.

[Sharla]

What's the deal, Sharla? You don't have sex with your husband so you're trying to make a case for yourself? It just makes me wonder because you seem to be pushing an agenda.

 

I think Ronnie's post summed it up.

[Lizzie60]

What's the deal, Sharla? You don't have sex with your husband so you're trying to make a case for yourself? It just makes me wonder because you seem to be pushing an agenda.

 

 

I have that feeling too... that.. or she doubts he's cheating on her..

[Jeff1962]

Know what? Go out and sleep with other men. Do as you wish. Whoop it up.

 

I will be right here as I am now until we work it out or we divorce.

 

I have no plans on dating or sex. If she does, then so be it, it will then close the book for me PERIOD.

 

I have clients to meet with, going to be a long day.

 

Thank you all for your help.

[Jeff1962]

Jeff,

This is more for "just in case" you guys can once again get on the same page in the future.

 

 

I agree with you...half way.

To me, the things that "screw with your mind", if kept secret, are the exact same things that end up screwing with your relationship and your marriage...and thus, end up screwing with your wife's mind in any case. Except, she never got the chance to know what it is, or find ways and help to deal with it for herself and for her marriage.

 

Not that you "should" or need to share all the 'gory details' with her but that, as the woman who committed to spending the rest of her life with you, she does have the privilege of knowing what keeps you up at night...in generalities, at the very least.

 

The vows that you two exchanged included promises to share ALL the significant and important things that would affect your relationship and your quality of a life together, "for better or for worse."

 

As your spouse, she is, IMO, entitled to all the information that will allow her to support you to the best of her abilities, through your "good and your bad."

 

YOU cannot function effectively, as a fully present, supportive, inspirational force in your marriage if you're also having to keep your fears and traumatic memories hidden...and without knowing what is driving you, neither can your wife be such a force.

 

I get that it is a terrible, terribly legacy of your tours of duty. I am sorry for your experiences.

 

Wishing you the outcomes that will support your long lasting happiness and peace.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I read honesty and senserity in your words. They mean a lot to me.

 

I have to go. Thank you again.

[zwieback.toast]

He's already been with his wife for TWENTY years, have they all been wasted?

 

I was with my ex for 18 years. . and no ALL those years are not wasted IMO...

 

He says he loves her and she is his best friend, so I would guess not. Isn't that worth swallowing a little pride and spending a little more money and time on to try to salvage, twenty years with your best friend whom you love?

 

The only thing is that .. in Jeff's case.. it seems like he's the ONLY one who seems to want to work on the M...

 

I am not up on what he has done so far, but if he gives counseling a real fair shake (it does take a lot of time, effort, introspection, and money) and it doesn't work, well, THEN perhaps he has knocked himself out and tried everything.

 

Methink... counselling, in this case, is a big waste of money... I think they've reached a point of no return.. in my case, all the counselling of the world couldn't bring the love back... (I could be wrong in Jeff's case.. but I doubt it)..

 

 

Well I don't think it would be 100% out of the question if Jeff's w had something going on on the side, like Lizzie speculated. "The husband is always the last to know."

 

But there are plenty of threads around here discussing unfaithful wives in pretty long term marriages who were not very sexual with their husbands, so the w's ended up expressing their sexuality with someone else.

 

Also, once the wife leaves a marriage like this isn't she "done" with the marriage for the most part?

[zwieback.toast]

I had some severe personal issues after returning home from Afghanistan and Iraq. I'll admit this. It tore me apart. It almost destroyed me. I've worked thru these issues these past 3 years. These issues, I keep to myself other than a counsler at the VA, they belong to me and to me alone. They have no right to be in my wife's head, to screw with her mind, like they do mine.

 

So there you have another window into my life.

 

I do love my wife. I only want her. I am not one who is quick to divorce as someone has suggested. I did choose the wrong way to approach my wife over the confusion concerning our lack of sex life. I'll admit that I could have been more tactful. Thank you for pointing this out to me. I really did not intend to hurt her. I wanted to wake her up.

 

I will however not try to stop her from moving out. If this is what she wants, then so be it. If she comes back to me and has not been with another man, I will consider accepting her back if we BOTH agree to work on matters. If she dates, then she can go and fu*k herself.

 

 

Wait a second Jeff. Are you actually saying you have been dealing with Post traumatic stress disorder but have not shared that with your wife in a meaningful way?

 

I could absolutely see how your issues from your military service could be influencing your ability to relate to you wife in ways you might not realize and definitely in ways she might not realize.

 

Wow. Why wouldn't you tell her what you have been going through?

[Kasan]

I really don't see how you are going to be able to sort these issues that you and your wife have, without some kind of counseling, even if it's only means going to the Church pastor.

 

You see the issue in your marriage as sex and I really wonder what your wife sees as the issue.

 

I am not assigning blame to either one of you, but rather want to point out a couple of things I have observed reading your threads.

 

You have been deployed twice which has left your wife in charge of the family when you have been gone. She has assumed the leadership role running the family. Has the transition of your prior roles gone smoothly when you have returned? How has the family dynamic changed?

 

You have admitted to suffering from some traumatic memories from being deployed. You don't wish to burden your wife with these, but in the effort to shield her from this, do you shut her out?

 

Because of your extreme frustration with your wife you admit to "To be honest, I've stopped doing certain things for her, not in punishment but, just to say hey, it goes both ways. If she's had a bad day, I still listen I just don't have much say. She tries to talk to me and I'm not rude but I'm pretty much to the point of the matter." Are you shutting her out?

 

You say that you miss your wife as she is your best friend. I believe you!

 

Twenty years of history is a very long time and I suspect that she probably misses you too. It sounds like the both of you have worked through some very tough times due to your deployments.

 

I think it's going to be very difficult to go back to what the both of you were as a couple. She experienced things while you gone and so did you.

 

Maybe it's difficult communicating now, as both of you have changed considerably through your separate experiences. You are trying to live in a marriage that was, instead of the marriage that now is. If this is true, then what worked before, most likely won't now. A counselor could really help the both of you with this.

 

Your wife suggested that she would leave at the end of the month. I think she either wants to get your attention (and hopefully start the work on resolving your issues as a couple.) or she has a plan. (I know I did when I uttered these same words.)

 

Do I think your marriage is over? No, I think there's a lot of hope given your twenty year history, but I also see that a lot of work will have to be done by the both of you to get through this. If you can do the work you can forge a stronger marriage.

 

Wishing you all the best.....................

[mem11363]

Laurie,

I don't think you get it. This is high intensity emotional abuse on her part. He has repeatedly talked to her about her total sexual rejection of him. She KNOWS how bad he feels about this. What she did was just cruel and awful. No counselor can fix that. The thing is - Jeff is being smart here. She has emotionally overpowered him. The ONLY way he can really stand up to her is when he is bright red with fury. Which means he cannot restore the power balance in his marriage. It really would be ok for her to have most of the power if (1) she wanted it - which she does not - it likely turns her off and (2) she were able to treat him kindly and love him back

 

She is NOT capable of being kind to him - it is better to part in these situations. Read his other posts so you have context.

 

 

 

 

Why are you giving up? Were part of your marriage vows "Till I cuss my wife out do us part?" I don't think so.

 

The things you just said make me believe that you CAN work this out, you are just frustrated. That's completely understandable. But THIS is why the divorce rate is so high!

 

You guys obviously have some issues (yes, both of you!) If you were saying you aren't going to be hurt by her leaving and you don't love her anymore I would say okay go ahead with the divorce. But it doesn't sound like that's REALLY what you want. Marriage takes work dude!!! That's what you signed up for, for better or worse remember?

 

What about MC? Besides even that I think you two just need to communicate with each other more. Sit down and talk about WHY she got so uspet and freaked out. Wives just don't do that for no good reason. Like I said she perceived your comment as rude. Find out why!

[Ronni_W]

No counselor can fix that.

mem,

You are correct in that no counselor can "fix" anything. But a caring and skilled counselor CAN help Jeff and his wife improve how they're perceiving and treating each other...*IF* (massive *if*) they want that for themselves, individually and as a couple.

 

We cannot rule out the possibility, however faint, that Jeff and his wife can somehow manage to get on the same page again. We don't have crystal balls, and it's not our place to make such judgments.

[mem11363]

Given what Jeff has said about his PTSD I agree that MC could be the right way to go. There is a question he needs to ask his wife. It is actually very simple. It goes like this.

 

Are you willing to meet me halfway in this process and make the effort to fix our broken marriage?

 

If her answer is yes, then MC is absolutely the right way to go. If her answer is anything other then a definitive YES, I think for his own sanity he should move on.

 

One person cannot fix a broken pair.

 

 

mem,

You are correct in that no counselor can "fix" anything. But a caring and skilled counselor CAN help Jeff and his wife improve how they're perceiving and treating each other...*IF* (massive *if*) they want that for themselves, individually and as a couple.

 

We cannot rule out the possibility, however faint, that Jeff and his wife can somehow manage to get on the same page again. We don't have crystal balls, and it's not our place to make such judgments.

[CLC2008]

Given what Jeff has said about his PTSD I agree that MC could be the right way to go. There is a question he needs to ask his wife. It is actually very simple. It goes like this.

 

Are you willing to meet me halfway in this process and make the effort to fix our broken marriage?

 

If her answer is yes, then MC is absolutely the right way to go. If her answer is anything other then a definitive YES, I think for his own sanity he should move on.

 

One person cannot fix a broken pair.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. And for what it's worth, I have experienced PTSD myself, so I can empathize with the OP.

 

Words seldom carry a lot of weight, except when/if they are hurtful, and then it can last for what seems like a lifetime for both individuals.

[NoIDidn't]

I agree with Laurabelle. I doubt very seriously that she has any 'agenda', just that some posters don't agree with the way that she values marriage. There is a such thing as disagreeing with someone without them being labeled as having an 'agenda'.

 

What I take from her posts is that she doesn't feel that Jeff has tried everything to help his marriage yet. And I agree. He hasn't shared his combat PTSD with her. They haven't gone to any type of joint counselling. They haven't exhausted all the avenues yet.

 

And I would also suggest sex therapy. If your W went into the bathroom and stayed and stayed and stayed and then allowed an argument to change her mind from having sex, she was in there changing her mind and not sure how to tell you. If what you've said about the sex you do have is true, she is not enjoying it very much. And she doesn't know how to tell you so. Thirty minutes is a LONG time. Not many women want to be "pounded" for that long for the guy to get the stimulation he needs to finally "finish" thirty minutes later.

 

The sexless in this marriage, IMO, is caused by her not enjoying the sex. A sex therapist can help with that.

 

I don't think this marriage is over by a long shot. Even if the OP engages in an affair. He still loves his W. Sure, he's unhappy, but he loves and desires her. I'm willing to bet that fixing the sexless part, will fix 80% of the unhappiness in this marriage.

[Jeff1962]

Wait a second Jeff. Are you actually saying you have been dealing with Post traumatic stress disorder but have not shared that with your wife in a meaningful way?

 

I could absolutely see how your issues from your military service could be influencing your ability to relate to you wife in ways you might not realize and definitely in ways she might not realize.

 

Wow. Why wouldn't you tell her what you have been going through?

 

Each man must face his own demons. There are certian things that we do not share with someone that we love because unless they have been there it would be a total mind f**k. I don't want my wife to know the things that I know.

 

My wife is very aware of my PTSD, it's pretty much unavoidable, she has been very supportive of me in this way. I've been doing really good dealing with it for quite sometime now.

[Jeff1962]

Given what Jeff has said about his PTSD I agree that MC could be the right way to go. There is a question he needs to ask his wife. It is actually very simple. It goes like this.

 

Are you willing to meet me halfway in this process and make the effort to fix our broken marriage?

 

If her answer is yes, then MC is absolutely the right way to go. If her answer is anything other then a definitive YES, I think for his own sanity he should move on.

 

One person cannot fix a broken pair.

 

I got home late tonite. Busy day. Long day. My wife immediatley told me that she did not want to move out, that she was just angry last nite. I told her that I was angry at the time as well.

 

I guess she has really been thinking about what I told her concerning me thinking about other women over our lack of sex. I could have chosen better words when I told her this. I have a habit of being brutally honest and at times it does backfire.

 

She told me that this is all she can think about now. She's upset because she thinks that I WANT to screw other women. I reassured her that this is not the case. I followed the posters advice (too tired to look back thru thread but thank you) that said a better way to have put this was that; "I love you and I only want to be with you but our lack of sex is a concern to me". After I told her this she started to cry. One of the few times that she told me she was sorry. I've really hurt her over this. This is why she started a fight with me last nite.

 

We've agreed to counseling. I'm still not totally convinced that things will change but I will give it a shot because I DO WANT to save my marriage.

[Jeff1962]

This sounds manipulative and like some kind of twisted test of love. If she is moving out it means she doesn't want to be with you. And you also said that you are done trying to work things out and don't think you are compatible. But she isn't allowed to date if she wants to be with you? Again that sounds like mixed messages. It is evident that you are confused. But honestly you have to decide whether you want to work things out or not. It isn't a "well I want to work things out but she can move out and not date other people even though we aren't together."

 

I'm going to get something very straight with you. If I were to move out tomorrow, until the divorce was final. I would remain faithful and I expect the same in return. If there was no hope of reconciliation I could understand moving on. Who the hell are you to call me manipulative? As far as I am concerned you can take your comment and stick it up your cornfield.

[Trimmer]

I got home late tonite. Busy day. Long day. My wife immediatley told me that she did not want to move out, that she was just angry last nite. I told her that I was angry at the time as well.

 

I guess she has really been thinking about what I told her concerning me thinking about other women over our lack of sex. I could have chosen better words when I told her this. I have a habit of being brutally honest and at times it does backfire.

 

She told me that this is all she can think about now. She's upset because she thinks that I WANT to screw other women. I reassured her that this is not the case. I followed the posters advice (too tired to look back thru thread but thank you) that said a better way to have put this was that; "I love you and I only want to be with you but our lack of sex is a concern to me". After I told her this she started to cry. One of the few times that she told me she was sorry. I've really hurt her over this. This is why she started a fight with me last nite.

 

We've agreed to counseling. I'm still not totally convinced that things will change but I will give it a shot because I DO WANT to save my marriage.

It sounds like you guys really took a moment and reached through all the crap and touched each other for real. It's like a little spark when you're trying to light a fire - recognize it as a start, nurture it, care for it.

 

When you see anger, look for the fear that is usually underneath. She probably doesn't get angry at you because it feels good to her - she is afraid of something, and fear (defensive) instinctively turns into anger (offensive). It's how we protected ourselves in the wild.

 

It sounds like she's afraid of losing you, or something along those lines. As distance grows between you, it just makes the fear worse and is a vicious cycle...

 

Take this moment and recognize it for the small gift that it is, and remember it as an example of the way things can be if you are able to break through the fear and the anger and trust each other.

 

I'll tell you one other thing - my wife and I broke up and yes, it sucked. I put a lot of energy into recovering from that loss. I try not to play the 'what if' game, but I've always wondered: if we had both been willing (she wasn't...), I wonder what our marriage could have become if we had put the same energy into healing and growing our relationship, as I have subsequently put into recovering and healing on my own. It's kind of sad and hopeful, all at the same time.

 

I hope you will see this moment as the opportunity that it is; stay open to each other, go bring this momentum in to your counseling, listen to each other, and help relieve each other's fears (and thus, anger), and just imagine what you could do if you put in that "recovery" energy now, together.

 

Good luck.

[HeyThere]

Jeff,

 

This is a huge step on your wife’s part. There is always hope, because if you stop believing then what?

 

Trimmer, you’re a smart man.

Edited February 6, 2010 by HeyThere

[giotto]

This is a huge step on your wife’s part. There is always hope, because if you stop believing then what?

 

No, it's not... otherwise she would have had sex with him, that night, or there and then... there are too many issues - which we don't know about - that are stopping her from having sex with her husband. Only Jeff will know them or probably not even Jeff. There is a very tense/power struggle situation going on in the family and until she comes clean - maybe through MC - there is no hope. Believe me... I've been there...

[whichwayisup]

I got home late tonite. Busy day. Long day. My wife immediatley told me that she did not want to move out, that she was just angry last nite. I told her that I was angry at the time as well

 

This is a good thing, it's opened the door for you two to talk more, listen to one another...It got her attention, big time!

 

I guess she has really been thinking about what I told her concerning me thinking about other women over our lack of sex. I could have chosen better words when I told her this. I have a habit of being brutally honest and at times it does backfire.

 

Better to be honest and hurt her, than hide it and/or lie.

 

She told me that this is all she can think about now. She's upset because she thinks that I WANT to screw other women. I reassured her that this is not the case. I followed the posters advice (too tired to look back thru thread but thank you) that said a better way to have put this was that; "I love you and I only want to be with you but our lack of sex is a concern to me". After I told her this she started to cry. One of the few times that she told me she was sorry. I've really hurt her over this. This is why she started a fight with me last nite.

 

I don't mean this meanly, but good that she cried, felt some pain, reacted and is upset. It's a positive thing because now she sees how her rejecting you has made you feel. Fact that she apologized is good, she's ready to take a step back and work on things, instead of it just being her way and ignoring how you feel.

 

We've agreed to counseling. I'm still not totally convinced that things will change but I will give it a shot because I DO WANT to save my marriage.

 

It'll help. Give it time. She does love you and doesn't want to lose you.. Somehow you two need to reconnect again, remember all the wonderful things you once loved in another at the beginning, capture that and bring into the present, and your future.

 

Counseling requires hard work, dedication so hopefully she will put that effort in. As will you, of course. You two can make it work if you both want this marriage to become better.

[mem11363]

Her refusal to have sex with you has been going on for quite some time. The fact you told her you are thinking about other women is not really that big a surprise to her. It is totally cruel for her to say - lets have sex - and THEN choose to get angry about your comment. It would have been totally different if she had simply chosen to be direct - when you got home and said - this is bothering me.

 

Jeff, the problem is that her lack of desire came WAY BEFORE your insensitive comment. She is deliberately choosing to try to blame your comment on her lack of desire when in truth her lack of desire existed well before that comment and is tied to some other stuff that she doesn't want/is afraid to say to you.

 

I know this is tough - but unless you get her to honestly tell you WHY she doesn't like having sex - this is going nowhere fast.

 

And I really question how good a friend a wife is - when - they know how rejected their husband feels - they come on to him - they make him wait a long time - and THEN they blow up at him for some totally dishonest reason and refuse to have sex.

 

When you tell a severely sex deprived man you are going to have sex with him - his adrenaline starts to pump and his system revs up. When you then suddenly with no warning say "you are being a jerk so I am not touching you" all that adrenaline gets doubled and has no where to go. This is a very, very stressful thing to do to ANY MAN. It is way worse to do to a guy already suffering PTSD.

 

I got home late tonite. Busy day. Long day. My wife immediatley told me that she did not want to move out, that she was just angry last nite. I told her that I was angry at the time as well.

 

I guess she has really been thinking about what I told her concerning me thinking about other women over our lack of sex. I could have chosen better words when I told her this. I have a habit of being brutally honest and at times it does backfire.

 

She told me that this is all she can think about now. She's upset because she thinks that I WANT to screw other women. I reassured her that this is not the case. I followed the posters advice (too tired to look back thru thread but thank you) that said a better way to have put this was that; "I love you and I only want to be with you but our lack of sex is a concern to me". After I told her this she started to cry. One of the few times that she told me she was sorry. I've really hurt her over this. This is why she started a fight with me last nite.

 

We've agreed to counseling. I'm still not totally convinced that things will change but I will give it a shot because I DO WANT to save my marriage.

[whichwayisup]

I know this is tough - but unless you get her to honestly tell you WHY she doesn't like having sex - this is going nowhere fast.

 

Counseling will help with this.

 

People don't change unless they are forced to, or hit rock bottom. I think J's wife realizes just how serious this has become and deep down, she knows it's crap or get off the pot time. The fight and how he handled it showed her just how serious he is/was to walking away - It woke her up.