Heroes or villains? Take two

[Ellin]

I think this is ultimately what very much of this R stuff boils down to - being true to oneself and looking after oneself as best as one is able.

 

That can take many forms, depending on one's needs and circumstances at the time - but often, if it deviates from what someone else considers "the norm", it's cast as "selfish" or "irresponsible". But sometimes the "selfless" or "responsible" option is not sustainable because it happens to the detriment of the person.

 

Thanks, SP, for this succinct encapsulation

 

That's very interesting. Could you elaborate?

 

I'm under impression that many posters stronlgy believe that actions which are selfish and irresponsible should never be taken and the person who suffers due to not taking the action should just carry on doing so in humility and silence.. And that would be the RIGHT THING.

[Fallen Angel]

That's very interesting. Could you elaborate?

 

I'm under impression that many posters stronlgy believe that actions which are selfish and irresponsible should never be taken and the person who suffers due to not taking the action should just carry on doing so in humility and silence.. And that would be the RIGHT THING.

 

You would be absolutely correct in assuming that is what many posters believe. But, not all of us.

 

I believe that to deny myself the happiness I get in my A would be wrong. *shrug* So, ultimately I am doing what is best for my emotional well-being, which is what "many posters" TELL me I should do, they just think that my well-being is dependent upon living by their moral code. (Yes, I am sure the "moral discussion will follow.. )

[Ellin]

(Yes, I am sure the "moral discussion will follow.. )

 

I'm looking forward to it.

[pureinheart]

So on this topic I have recently had to accept that I still tend to idealize my xAP. It is very frustrating because I really thought I was reaching a point where I didn't anymore. The other day I was faced with really seeing who she was and there was this pause and I thought "awwww I don't want to think that about her." That is what went through my head. Not that I don't...I can see her many faults now, but worse that I don't want to. So it is a choice...I see that now. I am choosing to keep her on a pedestal. I think by keeping her up there I can somehow justify myself. However, keeping all things considered...she is just a woman...like any other...I have chosen to exalt her to royal status.

 

Thing about it now is that it is not fair to the people in my life to think this way (especially myself). There is no way to truly move on from this stage in my life if I can't see it for what it was. It's funny, she herself would tell me..."I can't live up to the version of me in your head." You know what...she is right. I know that the idea of who I wanted her to be is not who she was...and in turn, I am not the person I thought I was when I was with her. I know that the kind of woman I want exists in real life...so I think it is time for me to kick the pedestal out from under Ms. Thing...she's a big girl...she'll find another.[/quote

 

 

 

Please forgive me if this is way off topic (don't think it is though), although just saw this and have to respond.

 

I am dealing with major issues due to this pedestal thing. My mother was unable to have children so she adopted me at birth. As I got older she was unable to see my character flaws due to the fact that I was her "prodigy" child, she had me on a pedastal (someday I will learn how to spell...k..lol...) I was molested at the age of 8 shortly after my parents D'ed, she did not choose to see that and later in life said, "I knew something was wrong with that sitch"...anyway pedestal child at the age of 14 was drinking Vodka....then smoking weed....pedestal child fell quick and I could never gain favor in her eyes again.

 

The cute little girl could sing, dance and preformed in public at the age of 3, having memorized many songs ...singing lessons, dance lessons, piano...God the list is never ending....I know her heart was right, and I am not blaming her and I appreciate all of the time she spent, some parents do not even know their kids exist, you know....just why did she abandon me emotionally?

 

My SO put me on a pedestal and I fell off, he was shocked, that his "Cinderella", then to be later referred to as his "Princess" was in fact human...he was destroyed I think and the revelation of this and still is. I was perfect in his eyes, and when I became human I was then not quite so desireable possibly.

 

DI, your ex lady (I think) is a good lady or you would not have given her the time of day mostlikely. DI this is more thereputic for me to communicate this than I even realise.

 

In your line of work...maybe should go to other threal lol....you hear the worst of the worst, then try to make sense of all of it and give people a better way to live, act ect...sure it is easy to put this beautiful lady on a pedestal, because you have feelings for her...it possibly is just putting it all in the proper order?

 

In fact I too (in thinking) put SO on a pedestal also! Wow, no wonder we had the issues that we did....

 

When we do realise they have fallen (in some cases, there are cases where it is not the "heat of the moment", but in fact serious mental anomilies) we do see them as demons because if feels like they are and yes they fit all of the standard stuff....I need to activate spell check, I know my spelling is bad...((((((((hugggs))))))))DI

[pureinheart]

Now you are making me laugh!

 

I feel I am getting through the 'blaming' too. I guess this is a part of the angle thing though. How bad exactly was I, him, my M? Take it to extreme then work out what kind of middle ground fits, and how to get over it all.

 

I worked out that my xMOM did have some psychpathic traits, but I knew that when I went in. I think they were due to his loneliness, or maybe it was the other way round? He had a sweetness that went beyond mere charm however. Still not sure about his empathy - seemed a tad shallower than most. But I would put his emotional intelligence as high. He cared about me, but he was someone capable of dropping people if they didn't fit in. And nerves of steel when it came to lying. Seemingly no attendant guilt.

 

I hated the deceit in me, and was all over the place dealing with it. I lost my appetite during the A and put this down to love, but it came back not when the love feelings diminished, but after DDay with my H. The guilt stopped me eating. Certainly can't say I treated my H well though. (Don't slam me for this comment anyone - I realise it is an understatement).

 

Perhaps together in an A we acted badly, but not to say that's who we are in other contexts. Perhaps that's part of the nature of an A that is ultimately hurtful to others and ourselves. One more thought to ponder when I say 'never again' to As.

 

What counts as a Post Traumatic issue for you? Do I have more research to do?

 

LOL!....

 

Well, the first meeting with my therapist and psychiatrist, they found about 20 and said I should write a book, I need to learn how to spell first though.

 

Stuff like being about 15 min away from the Pentagon and ( I was in councelling at the time) my councellor calling me to cancel my appointment because the Pentagon had just been attacked and they did not know at that point how far this would go or why at that time....my daughter was in school and we did not know if we were under attack...my H was UA (unauthorised absence) from USMC and didn't know where he was...stuck in VA a mile from Quantico Marine Corp Base, and 1/2 mi from the main FBI place....didn't know a soul there.

 

Having my fiancee murdered because his old gf was jealous because he was with me and (she was M to his cousin) told her H to murder him because she couldn't handle him being alive....I had just gotten a job that night and wonder to this day if they would have murdered me too...they call this survivors guilt...I was 19 and this happened in LA....I am not leaving home again....never....and that is a never that will not change!

 

This is just a couple of examples, but I think this is what it is?

 

You have chosen for the mostpart to work on you, which imo is the best way to go, the most sane way to go....sure it's good to study the entire situation, although when it comes down to it ourselves that we take with us where ever we go...lol

 

Some of the books I found describing SO scared the hell out of me at first...I found him to have Narcsisstic tendancies, committment phobic and many others....he gets into tramatic bonding too....now that most of the stressors have decreased significantly he is returning to "normal" for him....he is a hoarder though, I am sure of that and tried to turn me into one....shoot at thrift stores you can get next to new stuff....go on a shopping spree for about 40 bucks. Even if I were rich I would do most of my shopping at thrift stores, I love them and it's all his fault...LOL!!!!!!!!!

[wheelwright]

LOL!....

 

Well, the first meeting with my therapist and psychiatrist, they found about 20 and said I should write a book, I need to learn how to spell first though.

 

Stuff like being about 15 min away from the Pentagon and ( I was in councelling at the time) my councellor calling me to cancel my appointment because the Pentagon had just been attacked and they did not know at that point how far this would go or why at that time....my daughter was in school and we did not know if we were under attack...my H was UA (unauthorised absence) from USMC and didn't know where he was...stuck in VA a mile from Quantico Marine Corp Base, and 1/2 mi from the main FBI place....didn't know a soul there.

 

Having my fiancee murdered because his old gf was jealous because he was with me and (she was M to his cousin) told her H to murder him because she couldn't handle him being alive....I had just gotten a job that night and wonder to this day if they would have murdered me too...they call this survivors guilt...I was 19 and this happened in LA....I am not leaving home again....never....and that is a never that will not change!

 

This is just a couple of examples, but I think this is what it is?

 

You have chosen for the mostpart to work on you, which imo is the best way to go, the most sane way to go....sure it's good to study the entire situation, although when it comes down to it ourselves that we take with us where ever we go...lol

 

Some of the books I found describing SO scared the hell out of me at first...I found him to have Narcsisstic tendancies, committment phobic and many others....he gets into tramatic bonding too....now that most of the stressors have decreased significantly he is returning to "normal" for him....he is a hoarder though, I am sure of that and tried to turn me into one....shoot at thrift stores you can get next to new stuff....go on a shopping spree for about 40 bucks. Even if I were rich I would do most of my shopping at thrift stores, I love them and it's all his fault...LOL!!!!!!!!!

 

I can definitley say I don't understand this post.

 

All the best though.

[pureinheart]

I can definitley say I don't understand this post.

 

All the best though.

 

 

You asked what constituted Post Trauma, so gave a couple of examples....I shpuld have bolded the question for clarity...sorry!

[wheelwright]

Sorry Pureinheart. I have re-read it and it sounds horrendous, but like things are getting back on track for you now.

 

It was the last bit that confused me.

 

I am really sorry you went through all that, and can't quite believe it. But if I think back over my own life, I guess a number of pretty tough things happened to me too.

 

It seems being with someone who is a hoarder is a comparatively easy thing to deal with. At least it's thrift shops and not more expensive stuff!

[wheelwright]

So on this topic I have recently had to accept that I still tend to idealize my xAP. It is very frustrating because I really thought I was reaching a point where I didn't anymore. The other day I was faced with really seeing who she was and there was this pause and I thought "awwww I don't want to think that about her." That is what went through my head. Not that I don't...I can see her many faults now, but worse that I don't want to. So it is a choice...I see that now. I am choosing to keep her on a pedestal. I think by keeping her up there I can somehow justify myself. However, keeping all things considered...she is just a woman...like any other...I have chosen to exalt her to royal status.

 

Thing about it now is that it is not fair to the people in my life to think this way (especially myself). There is no way to truly move on from this stage in my life if I can't see it for what it was. It's funny, she herself would tell me..."I can't live up to the version of me in your head." You know what...she is right. I know that the idea of who I wanted her to be is not who she was...and in turn, I am not the person I thought I was when I was with her. I know that the kind of woman I want exists in real life...so I think it is time for me to kick the pedestal out from under Ms. Thing...she's a big girl...she'll find another.

 

I wonder if I did this pedestal thing. I know I felt more in love than at any other time in my life, and I had high regard for this feeling. I saw his faults through this though. But I did somehow think we were perfect for each other.

 

When I discovered he didn't care for me as much as I did him, it pulled the rug out from me idealising the emotional involvement we had. So it came down from the pedestal pretty quick.

 

I am glad you know there is a woman out there who will be a good match for you. I am glad you are getting over the xAP.

[OpenBook]

I wonder on a more prosaic level, do we idealise out APs as heroes and subjugate our BSs as villains?

 

Are there heroes and villains in you scenario, or only people trying to work stuff out?

 

Why do we (the OW) need to demonise if an A doesn't work out? Or why does the BS need to do this? Is infidelity not understandable without a demon?

 

I never tried to demonize the BS when I was involved with my MM (although I did idealize him). I had never met her, although I did get a glimpse of her at social functions. I actually sympathized with her, having to live with him and put up with his eccentricities on a daily basis. (That really confused me, because it was proof that I was aware he wasn't a very nice person!!)

 

Even after he dumped me, saying he was going to try to work it out at home, I didn't think about her at all, I was so focused on my own pain at his rejection. Then he took up with another OW and eventually divorced his W. (And I heard the other OW didn't last long either.) So there was no happy ending for anyone. It was all such a mess.

 

But in other relationships, yes I've demonized people - e.g. my boss. I perceived him as trying deliberately to trip me up and make my life miserable. He did accomplish that, but it wasn't because he was a demon trying to persecute me - it was because he was a micromanager. That's just the way he was. I demonized him because it was something to hang onto while I was going through the misery of working for him. Bottom line, if I'm really honest, demonizing him was an appeal for sympathy from others. I really needed support during that time, and that was my way of asking for it. Smooth, huh.

 

So, lesson learned from the demonizing: I need to get my head out of my @ss (i.e., quit focusing on my own perception of being persecuted) and find a more effective way to deal with difficult people - avoid them if you can, but if you can't - learn how to play the situation to your advantage.

 

And lesson learned from the idealizing: uh, I'm still working on that one. I never feel more alive than when I'm spellbound with admiration for someone. It's a very difficult thing to change.

[wheelwright]

I never tried to demonize the BS when I was involved with my MM (although I did idealize him). I had never met her, although I did get a glimpse of her at social functions. I actually sympathized with her, having to live with him and put up with his eccentricities on a daily basis. (That really confused me, because it was proof that I was aware he wasn't a very nice person!!)

 

Even after he dumped me, saying he was going to try to work it out at home, I didn't think about her at all, I was so focused on my own pain at his rejection. Then he took up with another OW and eventually divorced his W. (And I heard the other OW didn't last long either.) So there was no happy ending for anyone. It was all such a mess.

 

But in other relationships, yes I've demonized people - e.g. my boss. I perceived him as trying deliberately to trip me up and make my life miserable. He did accomplish that, but it wasn't because he was a demon trying to persecute me - it was because he was a micromanager. That's just the way he was. I demonized him because it was something to hang onto while I was going through the misery of working for him. Bottom line, if I'm really honest, demonizing him was an appeal for sympathy from others. I really needed support during that time, and that was my way of asking for it. Smooth, huh.

 

So, lesson learned from the demonizing: I need to get my head out of my @ss (i.e., quit focusing on my own perception of being persecuted) and find a more effective way to deal with difficult people - avoid them if you can, but if you can't - learn how to play the situation to your advantage.

 

And lesson learned from the idealizing: uh, I'm still working on that one. I never feel more alive than when I'm spellbound with admiration for someone. It's a very difficult thing to change.

 

Good post! I know what you mean about feeling really alive when you are in love with someone. Or spellbound, which may be a good way of looking at how I felt about my xAP.

 

And I never felt more dead than when it all came crashing down.

 

I should clarify a point here. As I was a MOW in my A, it was my own H I tended to have negative feelings about - or the relationship really. Not him, who I always saw as a good man. My AP's BS did not arouse much emotion at all - I believed she did not love her H on good evidence. I therefore felt I was taking nothing from her that she would miss. I felt some jealousy, but this is not an emotion I am especially prone to (or would admit to myself anyway!). I certainly didn't demonize her - she did nothing at all wrong!

 

When I started this thread, I didn't mean to start the discussion about demonizing the AP's BS. But it was interesting to hear about this anyway.

[White Flower]

There is a thread on LS that talks about power relations and jobs in these terms.

 

1a. I wonder on a more prosaic level, do we idealise out APs as heroes and subjugate our BSs as villains?

 

1b. Are there heroes and villains in you scenario, or only people trying to work stuff out?

 

2a. Why do we (the OW) need to demonise if an A doesn't work out? Or why does the BS need to do this? 2b. Is infidelity not understandable without a demon?

 

As a human touch, yes I demonised my xMOM. I researched psychopathic behaviour (re him and me!) I wondered if he were a demon sent by God to f*** up my life and I am not even religious. I looked into posssibilities to understand if psychopathy could be an explanation of how he treated me.

 

I lloked into possibilities of psychopathy to understand how I ended up in an A.

 

3. Heroes of love or villains of the peace?

 

And like war, doesn't it matter which side you are on when you win or lose?

1a. Yes, probably. I idealize my AP and now that I know more of his BW I see her as the villain. Only recently though.

 

1b. I'm told by MM that his W is not one to sort things out. There needs to be a villain in her mind. He said had she seen us in public together she would screen obscenities at me and drag him home with her. It would be all my fault and none of it his.

 

2a. I never needed to demonize the BS; however, she IS the kind of person who NEEDS to demonize the OW. It is just her psychological makeup. My guess is her lack of education, her lack of knowledge about EMRs, and her lack of knowledge about me.

 

2b. I do believe she believes there needs to be a demon. She is of the school of thought that her H was seduced by an evil sex goddess who has him under her magical spell and that her H has no choice whatsoever in the matter. If she only knew that he pursued ME for a year and a half before I finally succumbed. If she only knew he had a string of OWs long before I came along. Had she known that, she might see HIM as the evil sex god with the magic ways.

 

3. Number three is a loaded question. The love we share feels very heroic. Her wanting to humanize him and dehumanize me makes her an ignorant villain to me. If she can forgive him, why does she not try to see my role in this as his victim too? He made promises to me just like he did her. Yes, I know there is a M contract over there, but the bonds of his heart run deeper than that. And THAT will always be seen as an evil deed by the (ignorant kind of) BS because they cannot do anything about it. No god, no contract, and no magic spell can change that.

Edited January 30, 2010 by White Flower

[NoIDidn't]

1a. Yes, probably. I idealize my AP and now that I know more of his BW I see her as the villain. Only recently though.

 

1b. I'm told by MM that his W is not one to sort things out. There needs to be a villain in her mind. He said had she seen us in public together she would screen obscenities at me and drag him home with her. It would be all my fault and none of it his.

 

2a. I never needed to demonize the BS; however, she IS the kind of person who NEEDS to demonize the OW. It is just her psychological makeup. My guess is her lack of education, her lack of knowledge about EMRs, and her lack of knowledge about me.

 

2b. I do believe she believes there needs to be a demon. She is of the school of thought that her H was seduced by an evil sex goddess who has him under her magical spell and that her H has no choice whatsoever in the matter. If she only knew that he pursued ME for a year and a half before I finally succumbed. If she only knew he had a string of OWs long before I came along. Had she known that, she might see HIM as the evil sex god with the magic ways.

 

3. Number three is a loaded question. The love we share feels very heroic. Her wanting to humanize him and dehumanize me makes her an ignorant villain to me. If she can forgive him, why does she not try to see my role in this as his victim too? He made promises to me just like he did her. Yes, I know there is a M contract over there, but the bonds of his heart run deeper than that. And THAT will always be seen as an evil deed by the (ignorant kind of) BS because they cannot do anything about it. No god, no contract, and no magic spell can change that.

 

WF, I was under the impression that you were no longer with your MM since you found out he was a serial MM. This post seems to say that things are back on.

 

I have a question about #3. Why does her need or tendency to dehumanize you make her ignorant? Why should she see you as his victim when you volunteered for the spot and stayed there for any amount of time?

 

The first question is because, while I disagree with dehumanizing anyone, it makes sense to a degree. The OW doesn't matter since she could be anyone. Thus the dehumanization aspect by some BWs. The second question because I can't quite understand why any OW would ever feel that they were a victim of the MM. If its love, you can't be a victim of his.

[White Flower]

WF, I was under the impression that you were no longer with your MM since you found out he was a serial MM. This post seems to say that things are back on.

 

I have a question about #3. Why does her need or tendency to dehumanize you make her ignorant? Why should she see you as his victim when you volunteered for the spot and stayed there for any amount of time?

 

The first question is because, while I disagree with dehumanizing anyone, it makes sense to a degree. The OW doesn't matter since she could be anyone. Thus the dehumanization aspect by some BWs. The second question because I can't quite understand why any OW would ever feel that they were a victim of the MM. If its love, you can't be a victim of his.

First things first.

 

He wants it back on. I still love him. If he leaves her, I will take him back. He is in counseling now in order to fix himself and I applaud him for that. He's got a lot of figuring out to do.

 

Secondly, I don't need her to see me as a victim and I don't see myself as one. It is just another scenario she could have opened her mind up to (if she were open-minded at all). IOW, if she wants to put me in the light of the evil vixen, why can't she put him in the same light? Why not go into the restaurant and scream obscenities at HIM and take ME home to talk things over with and get the real truth. He has lied to her for XX years. I have never lied to her. I just have a problem with a particular kind of BW who easily forgives her H (as long as she believes he has turned the OW away) and who never seeks the real truth in real time. Head-burying at its very best. (Ignorance by choice.)

 

For the record she did not catch us in a restaurant. But he did tell me had she done so, this is what she would have done. It is just her way.

[NoIDidn't]

First things first.

 

He wants it back on. I still love him. If he leaves her, I will take him back. He is in counseling now in order to fix himself and I applaud him for that. He's got a lot of figuring out to do.

 

Secondly, I don't need her to see me as a victim and I don't see myself as one. It is just another scenario she could have opened her mind up to (if she were open-minded at all). IOW, if she wants to put me in the light of the evil vixen, why can't she put him in the same light? Why not go into the restaurant and scream obscenities at HIM and take ME home to talk things over with and get the real truth. He has lied to her for XX years. I have never lied to her. I just have a problem with a particular kind of BW who easily forgives her H (as long as she believes he has turned the OW away) and who never seeks the real truth in real time. Head-burying at its very best. (Ignorance by choice.)

 

For the record she did not catch us in a restaurant. But he did tell me had she done so, this is what she would have done. It is just her way.

 

Gotcha. I was seeing things through the filter that said "ignorant" means "stupid". I need to turn that one off. It seems you meant "ignorant" as in "not knowledgeable". Big difference. Sorry.

 

I said it in a thread in Infidelity, I don't see why the BS needs to understand anything about the OP. Especially when the OP isn't willing to do the same for the BS, and not simply in their way based on the way they handled a similar situation. Its a pretty rigid position you take on her. Isn't your position equally as closed-minded as hers?

[White Flower]

Gotcha. I was seeing things through the filter that said "ignorant" means "stupid". I need to turn that one off. It seems you meant "ignorant" as in "not knowledgeable". Big difference. Sorry.

 

I said it in a thread in Infidelity, I don't see why the BS needs to understand anything about the OP. Especially when the OP isn't willing to do the same for the BS, and not simply in their way based on the way they handled a similar situation. Its a pretty rigid position you take on her. Isn't your position equally as closed-minded as hers?

We've had this conversation before and in that thread I was adamant that I would not say she was stupid due to her ignorance. I just didn't want to say the words.

 

I feel a little differently today. I have a hard time with the particular kind of BS who really buries their head in the sand. I have a greater respect for those who try to understand most of what went on in an effort to either heal and save the M or heal and move on. This one only wants what she wants even if her H doesn't love her. There is a major difference.

 

And yes, I meant 'ignorance' as in not being knowledgeable; further, she chooses to not be knowledgeable.

 

No, I don't believe my position to be as equally as rigid as hers. I guess it's true when they say that the OW has more power (or has more knowledge) because she is privy to the W through what the MM tells her. W knows nothing. At D-day, a BW makes the choice to learn or not to learn.

 

If you love the H I say you choose to learn. I don't think she loves him. I think she thinks she loves him. Further, I think she loves herself because it is her lifestyle she is defending. She proves this by NOT asking questions, NOT calling me for the truth, and NOT trusting her gut if she has one. She is not in search of why he did this. She is only in search of making her life the way she wants it.

 

It is easier that way for her. Love does not know easy. Love stares fear in the face and takes it on.

 

If she knew what I knew it would be a hell of a lot more work. She doesn't like work.

[whichwayisup]

What if she's just 'weak' and has insecurites/issues. Just can't deal with it?

 

I can't remember all the details of your situation WF, sorry. But, just doing alittle read, catch up, be careful of your heart. If your MM is a serial cheater, shield yourself and take it slow when the time comes you do take him back.

[pureinheart]

Sorry Pureinheart. I have re-read it and it sounds horrendous, but like things are getting back on track for you now.

 

It was the last bit that confused me.

 

I am really sorry you went through all that, and can't quite believe it. But if I think back over my own life, I guess a number of pretty tough things happened to me too.

 

It seems being with someone who is a hoarder is a comparatively easy thing to deal with. At least it's thrift shops and not more expensive stuff!

 

Thank you, and oh yes things are a little better now, and also am lookimng at life differently.

 

I bet you could come up with many traumatic things that you have been through ....and sorry about the last part...one of my ramblings!!!!!

[White Flower]

What if she's just 'weak' and has insecurites/issues. Just can't deal with it?

 

I can't remember all the details of your situation WF, sorry. But, just doing alittle read, catch up, be careful of your heart. If your MM is a serial cheater, shield yourself and take it slow when the time comes you do take him back.

Thanks WW. I should really start my own thread for those who 'know' me and have followed my story. I don't want to t/j here on this thread, but I will give you a quick update here if that's ok.

 

The last year and a half have been all about shielding myself. His lifestory has been blown wide open for me and his counselor to inspect. His W knows nothing of any of it. You may be right in that she 'just is weak and can't deal with it'. He told me last night he knows he will never share any of it with her.

 

Does that make me the hero in his eyes and her the villain? I don't know, but we do have an emotional bond that no one can penetrate, not even now.

 

Without giving TMI, it would be very hard for this man to conduct life as it once was. Not impossible, but very hard. I'm fully aware.

[NoIDidn't]

Thanks WW. I should really start my own thread for those who 'know' me and have followed my story. I don't want to t/j here on this thread, but I will give you a quick update here if that's ok.

 

The last year and a half have been all about shielding myself. His lifestory has been blown wide open for me and his counselor to inspect. His W knows nothing of any of it. You may be right in that she 'just is weak and can't deal with it'. He told me last night he knows he will never share any of it with her.

 

Does that make me the hero in his eyes and her the villain? I don't know, but we do have an emotional bond that no one can penetrate, not even now.

 

Without giving TMI, it would be very hard for this man to conduct life as it once was. Not impossible, but very hard. I'm fully aware.

 

I don't think that you are t/j-ing this thread. Being the daughter of a serialMM, I have to agree with your final assessment that knowing what he now knows of himself it would be hard for him to return to that. Not impossible, like you said, but definitely hard.

 

My dad truly seems to be out of that phase. He went to counselling, at my urging, when my stepmom left. He has grown in leaps. He is not exactly the same man I grew up with. And he would NEVER look in my stepmom's, or even my mother's, way again. They were a part of his problem, he picked women that fit his view of the world at that time. And now they don't fit. And, they do tend to be "weak" women in some areas. They, too, want the relationship but not the relating that is supposed to come with it.

 

This is probably contradictory to many other opinions I have expressed here, but this is my father. Someone I really know quite well. Someone that may have failed in three marriages, but is not failing in life.

[White Flower]

I don't think that you are t/j-ing this thread. Being the daughter of a serialMM, I have to agree with your final assessment that knowing what he now knows of himself it would be hard for him to return to that. Not impossible, like you said, but definitely hard.

 

My dad truly seems to be out of that phase. He went to counselling, at my urging, when my stepmom left. He has grown in leaps. He is not exactly the same man I grew up with. And he would NEVER look in my stepmom's, or even my mother's, way again. They were a part of his problem, he picked women that fit his view of the world at that time. And now they don't fit. And, they do tend to be "weak" women in some areas. They, too, want the relationship but not the relating that is supposed to come with it.

 

This is probably contradictory to many other opinions I have expressed here, but this is my father. Someone I really know quite well. Someone that may have failed in three marriages, but is not failing in life.

I so appreciate your comments on this. If and when I start my thread I want you to join me.

 

I know MM made some major changes during the last year and a half mainly because he had somebody to talk about all of it with (me) and I'm not even a counselor. They say confession is good for the soul and it was good for him. I saw many changes before my very eyes and nobody can convince me that he had any other OWs in that time. Now that he is in counseling I have even more hope for him.

 

You hit the nail on the head with men like that choosing weak women. With all due respect to his W, she definitely has the damsel in distress syndrome and, according to him, confuses easily and is needy. This is where is guilt comes in to play because he genuinely feels she could not survive on her own. Once he is shown that she can survive on her own (and SHE won't be the one to convince him, I'm sure) he will feel less guilty about a D.

 

His W also wants the relationship but not the relating. He can't get enough of the relating with me. He can be himself completely with me and with everything I know I'm sure he sees this as a gift. I know I would if the roles were reversed. Too much time has gone by and too many patterns in the M developed for him to ever be able to open up to her in this way.

 

He has recently opened up to a close friend of his about all this. He introduced him to me in fact. Now MM has three sources to turn to if he feels he needs to talk about it. He's making changes and I am happy to see it.

 

I'm glad your dad has changed and that you're proud of him.

[fooled once]

My personal view?

 

When I was married and had an A, I was a villian to myself - I was not serving my interests in the best way for me

 

When I then took responsibility for my unhappiness in my childless marriage and divorced into an unkown future then I was a hero for myself - I served my core interests in the best way for me without dependancy on another

 

Later when I ended up in a relationship with a MW I was a villian to myself - I was not serving my interests in the best way for me

 

When I took responsibilty and walked away from that situation into an unknown future then I was a hero for myself - I served my core interests in the best way for me without dependancy on another

 

 

This is an excellent post. Very inspiring and very real -- you owned your actions and took steps to correct behavior that you weren't proud of! I commend you!!

[fooled once]

We've had this conversation before and in that thread I was adamant that I would not say she was stupid due to her ignorance. I just didn't want to say the words.

 

I feel a little differently today. I have a hard time with the particular kind of BS who really buries their head in the sand. I have a greater respect for those who try to understand most of what went on in an effort to either heal and save the M or heal and move on. This one only wants what she wants even if her H doesn't love her. There is a major difference.

 

And yes, I meant 'ignorance' as in not being knowledgeable; further, she chooses to not be knowledgeable.

 

No, I don't believe my position to be as equally as rigid as hers. I guess it's true when they say that the OW has more power (or has more knowledge) because she is privy to the W through what the MM tells her. W knows nothing. At D-day, a BW makes the choice to learn or not to learn.

 

If you love the H I say you choose to learn. I don't think she loves him. I think she thinks she loves him. Further, I think she loves herself because it is her lifestyle she is defending. She proves this by NOT asking questions, NOT calling me for the truth, and NOT trusting her gut if she has one. She is not in search of why he did this. She is only in search of making her life the way she wants it.

 

It is easier that way for her. Love does not know easy. Love stares fear in the face and takes it on.

 

If she knew what I knew it would be a hell of a lot more work. She doesn't like work.

 

For discussion sake, let's say (regarding the bolded), she wants to learn, but she doesn't learn the truth from her H because he lies to her and says it was a ONS or it is now over, etc. In many cases, the only way for the wife to 'learn' is to sit down with the H and the OW and everyone tells the WHOLE truth, not a concocted story or 'white lies' or omissions. How can a BS learn the whole truth if they aren't told the whole truth?

[White Flower]

For discussion sake, let's say (regarding the bolded), she wants to learn, but she doesn't learn the truth from her H because he lies to her and says it was a ONS or it is now over, etc. In many cases, the only way for the wife to 'learn' is to sit down with the H and the OW and everyone tells the WHOLE truth, not a concocted story or 'white lies' or omissions. How can a BS learn the whole truth if they aren't told the whole truth?

 

The first step would be to call the OW directly and keep calling until she answers the phone. Otherwise, leave a polite message saying you need answers and don't believe you are getting them from the WS.

 

I would welcome a round table discussion with them. I imagine I would have to hold his hand and shield him from her anger and threats but remember, that is what he is telling me. She may be kind and sweet.

 

He would say he would have to protect me from her anger and name calling but again, this is what I'm told.

 

Since she has never left a voice mail asking me to call her I can only assume she does not want to know the truth from me. One would think she would keep trying until I answered my phone or at least leave a message asking me to call back. If she doesn't want to know the truth I am not going to shove it down her throat.

 

The easiest path for the head-burier is to just believe the WS. Get him to kiss your azz and make it all better until you let him out for little bits at a time. In about 2 months he's back in the A full swing and you'll never know the difference. You might even be happier because he's stopped his moping.

 

Of course I'm only referring to the head-burying types here.

[bentnotbroken]

For discussion sake, let's say (regarding the bolded), she wants to learn, but she doesn't learn the truth from her H because he lies to her and says it was a ONS or it is now over, etc. In many cases, the only way for the wife to 'learn' is to sit down with the H and the OW and everyone tells the WHOLE truth, not a concocted story or 'white lies' or omissions. How can a BS learn the whole truth if they aren't told the whole truth?

 

This has been the reason I have little respect for WS who continue to lie (out right or by omission) after d-day. Most seem to think it is the handbook to continue to lie. Whether they stay in the marriage or not, they lie. Selfish till the end. Yet they want the BS to make changes, how is it possible to make lasting changes when the changes are based on lies? I think to most BS an act of infidelity isn't a deal breaker, but the lying that follows is more pervasive than the lies during the A. Not to mention quite a few A's continue, without the BS knowledge of course.

 

AP don't think it's their place to inform the BS, WS has no intention of informing the BS so what is the next move?