How to move on if I totally love him?

[Ellin]

Ellin ~ I've been involved in an affair for almost 2 1/2 years. I've tried NC several times, intiated by me. Didn't work because I wasn't strong enough for how much it hurt me. We had a NC time initiated by her, lasted 2 weeks, it was too much for her. It was the hardest two weeks of my life.

 

I also have only really fallen in love twice. Once in my late teens and then with MW.

 

I have learned to take our relationship for what it is only, as she has always been clear that she will not leave her partner of ten years.

 

I do date other women, but so far I have not found anyone that I could love like I love her. I usually get fed up with the relationships not being 'enough'. Sad but very true.

 

I don't think it's easier to be like the brother, just more distracting.

 

My heart goes out to you. I always thought NC was a time to let go and start healing, but it hurts like crazy. The only advice I can give is to allow yourself to feel the pain. Not that, i'm guessing, you have much of a choice, it never was for me. Too overwhelming.

 

Thank you so much for that Agent_99. It does help to hear words of support from someone who understands so well.

[Agent_99]

But you know what the feeling of being with him is like - it's like the air feels different, it's shimmering and it makes all pieces just fall perfectly into the right place... It so hard to pull away from that..

 

Just reading that brought me flashes of SO many moments with MW! Moments that felt to perfect, so right. And yet, at least for her and I, underneath that romance is a very deep friendship.

[Ellin]

She needs to do what every other woman should do: ask herself every day if she if she knew that her committed man would never leave his partner would still want to be in a relationship with him, ask herself if the pros of the relationship outweigh the cons. Only she can answer that. If you ask yourself this question you know you are where you want to be and should not feel fooled when/if the relationship comes to an end.

 

Dear Jennie.

 

Your posts are incredibly helpful and help me see things more clearly and in an 'organised' way, which is great because I have chaos in my head most of the time.

 

I surely never wanted to be in this situation. It was almost as if I woke up one day and 'found' myself in it.

 

You wrote once that it had taken you four years to find peace and work out the above formula, if I remember correctly. I'm not at that stage yet. I don't know what my answer to this question would be.

 

Right now I feel that I still have a lot to work through in terms of the dynamics of my R with him and his R with her. I need to know. I need to understand! This is one of the reasons why I can't just walk..

[Ellin]

Just reading that brought me flashes of SO many moments with MW! Moments that felt to perfect, so right. And yet, at least for her and I, underneath that romance is a very deep friendship.

There is so much love and warmth in the way you talk about her.

I'd like to know more about your story. Can you direct me to any posts where you have written more?

 

Just wanted to add that similarly, the last time I fell in love with someone so deeply was in my late teens (so 20 years ago), it didn't work out but I couldn't get over him for years, I still like him a lot. I thought I loved my xH, but now I know that it was for the wrong reasons and I feel nothing for him at all. Now with this man it's love like never before..

Edited January 27, 2010 by Ellin

[torranceshipman]

I hate to say this but these sound like cliche MM soap opera statements: that his W is a crazed alcoholic husband abuser. I highly doubt this. The only 'proof' you had was her calling him real mad. And guess what....she had more than a right to be, as he was with is mistress when she called! I am sure he had been driving her mad and gaslighting her at home.

 

If I were you I'd appreciate the fact that he is a big liar - the type who bad mouthes his W to another woman that he is sleeping with, and refers to her as a bully alcoholic - which I for one do not believe. And if you don't think I'm right, then that leaves you with this though: he's totally miserable living with a crazed alcoholic yet still didnt choose you. Surely that's all enough to start helping you move on?

[2sure]

Ellin maybe this will help.

 

You love him. You are willing to make sacrifices to be with him because you love him so much.

 

He isnt willing to sacrifice you or be honest with his partner because he doesnt love her enough.

 

He isnt willing to sacrifice his partner or be honest with you because he doesnt love you enough.

[silverplanets]

For me the key was to realise the difference between acknowledging how I felt about them to myself and allowing an unhealthy situation to continue.

 

Once I truly understood that I could happily admit to myself that I loved them like crazy whilst at the same time happily admiting to myself that the actual situation was not healthy for me then I was able to begin to make progress.

 

I could remove myself from the unhealthy situation and it didn't affect any love I had for them!!!

 

So I did !!!

 

Once out of the unhealthy situaton it was easier to separate my love from them from my love for myself.

 

Once I did that I was able to allow my love for them to remain whilst beginning to focus on looking after myself.

 

I could begin to love and look after myself without challenging my love for them !!!

 

So I did !!!

 

Once I did this I was able to look at my love and feelings for them and separate out my love for them and the pain and addiction habits to them that I had.

 

Doing this allowed me to managing the pain and habits whilst still having love for them !!!

 

So I did !!!

 

I have kept doing this time and time again and by not directly challenging my right to love them I have been able to separate out each stage of me that I need to work on.

 

I cannot change that I love them and have not tried to ... but that love has had less and less control over me as I've slowly removed the non-core parts of it away.

 

Ultimately I was able to meet her, know that I loved her, and confidently say no when she tried to seduce me again. Saying no didn't affect my love for them ... !!! And my love for them didn't override my love for myself.

 

I have not tried to challenge my love for her, I have simply focused on my love for myself.

 

In the beginning, I used to wake up with this feeling of dread and the weight of the love/loss on me like a block I used to visualise it as this huge tall, inpenetrable, black block towering right above me, with my face already pressed right to it as soon as I woke up.

 

I used to hold that image and then just get out of bed the other side and walk around it ... I used to walk 10ft around it as I reckoned that was about how wide it was. Then I would just leave it there and carry on with what I need to do.

 

During the day when I felt the block in front of me again I would stop and re-visualise it right in front of me and encourage it to form. As soon as it had I would step a few steps to one side and camly walk past it again.

 

At bad times I had to do that 3 or 4 times in a row, but each time I just refused to walk straight forwards into it .. always side step and walk past it.

 

Eventually both the size of the tower shrunk and also the frequency of it appearing ... nowadays I can mostly swat it away with one hand.

 

At times I would feel I wanted to feel the weigh of the pain and suffering so I would let it all settle on top of me until for a bit, then I would just move aside and let it drop to the ground so that I was no longer carrying it.

 

OK, enough now before people think I am loopy ... maybe it will work for you maybe not ...

 

Ultimately you are the one picking up the pain/baggage so conceptually, all you have to is decide not to.

 

(and I know its easier said than done)

 

good luck, you can do it

 

Chris

Edited January 27, 2010 by silverplanets

[Ellin]

Hi Chris.

 

Thank you for your kind words and for taking the time to share with me the way you coped. It's very interesting and I admire your strength, reason and determination.

[Ellin]

I hate to say this but these sound like cliche MM soap opera statements: that his W is a crazed alcoholic husband abuser. I highly doubt this. The only 'proof' you had was her calling him real mad. And guess what....she had more than a right to be, as he was with is mistress when she called! I am sure he had been driving her mad and gaslighting her at home.

 

If I were you I'd appreciate the fact that he is a big liar - the type who bad mouthes his W to another woman that he is sleeping with, and refers to her as a bully alcoholic - which I for one do not believe. And if you don't think I'm right, then that leaves you with this though: he's totally miserable living with a crazed alcoholic yet still didnt choose you. Surely that's all enough to start helping you move on?

 

Is it just a knee-jerk reaction? Doesn't look like you know much about my story.

 

I have a lot more 'proof' than what you have remarked on.

[jwi71]

Ellin,

 

I posted a very simple question and I was wondering if you had any ideas or thoughts?

 

What ACTIONS can you do to either "win" him or leave?

 

Because I can see you are very defensive right now...lets try and focus on what YOU can do to change this situation...

[Ellin]

Ellin,

 

I posted a very simple question and I was wondering if you had any ideas or thoughts?

 

What ACTIONS can you do to either "win" him or leave?

 

Because I can see you are very defensive right now...lets try and focus on what YOU can do to change this situation...

 

Hi jwi71

 

When one gets attacked, being defensive might be quite logical.

 

Thank you for your constructive approach. I'm just not in the right state of mind to go along with it right now. Perhaps that's why I'm on LS, looking for ideas or inspiration.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Ellin

[wheelwright]

But you know what the feeling of being with him is like - it's like the air feels different, it's shimmering and it makes all pieces just fall perfectly into the right place... It so hard to pull away from that..

 

I felt exactly the same. And it was the hardest thing I ever did to pull away. Maybe the old saying all that glitters is not gold may be useful here? Not to say that it isn't really love, just that it didn't turn out to be that healthy.

 

I still feel upset when I think of the way it felt to be with xMOM. And that magic has gone from my life.

 

But when I looked a little beyond the magic to some cold hard unpleasant facts, I began to learn to let go.

 

Hope you are doing Ok.

[silverplanets]

Hi Chris.

 

Thank you for your kind words and for taking the time to share with me the way you coped. It's very interesting and I admire your strength, reason and determination.

 

No problem ... I hope it might help but also know how difficult it is to move forward in the pain, hurt and confusion.

 

Sometimes just doing 1 deliberate thing - like choosing to ignore it for 5 mins to make a cup of tea can be all it takes to realise that you still have your strengh deep down.

 

Making yourself get a newspaper etc ... anything that slowly begins to demonstrate to yourself that you can still function through this.

 

Of course, if you're still in contact with them, then this is pretty impossible as the new waves of pain just keep on rolling in .

 

NC - doesn't take away the sea of pain but it does stop the waves from rolling constantly in over your head.

 

Be safe

Chris

[fooled once]

Some say embrace what you have, but it doesn't sound like you are going to be happy to remain the hidden OW for long. I could be wrong -- tell me, are you okay with things remaining EXACTLY as they are? Can you continue down this road for the next 1, 2 3, 5, etc years? If so, then I have no advice. I just don't understand why any woman would want that.

 

IF you can't just be the OW; if you can't handle this exact situation for the next 1, 2, 3 or 5+ years, then only YOU have the power to change it.

 

I was married to an alcoholic. I didn't realize how bad it was until the end. To this day, he is still an alcoholic. He has remarried but booze is still his first love. Not his child, not his wife, but booze.

 

If you want to wait it out and see if things change, that's fine. But you can't make him change, you can't make him stop being co-dependent. You can't make him want a better life for himself. Only he can do that.

 

So you will sit, on the sidelines, watching him self destruct; not only his life, but that of his partner and yours --- I say yours because he doesn't care enough about you to let you go OR make changes in his life. He is standing still, and you are walking in circles around him.

 

Do I wish MORE for you? OF COURSE I do, as I am sure many others do. There are very few women who want to just stay the OW. There are very few women who proclaim to love these MM who wish to just remain hidden, not a part of his entire life. For some reason, I don't see you being one of those ((hug))

 

I hope you can take the necessary steps to free yourself from this, because I don't see you as being happy if things remain the same.

[MizzBlue72]

Hi Mizzblue,

 

Thank you for your helpful reply, I really appreciate it.

 

The first time I posted about my story, in October last year, I did mention that he showed signs of co-dependency as I had guessed and read up on that. I understand how it works and that help is neede, but I'd be grateful if you could tell me more about your won experience, both as the spouse of an alcoholic and dating a co-dependent.

 

I was also in a similar situation when I was married to a man with gambling addiction (and many other problems). I managed to get out of it. I'm not sure what I'd have done before I was able to get out, if I had met someone else, willing to help me through.

 

And what did you mean when you said that if he left her and got together with me, I'd be getting more of the same? More of what? I believe that if this was the case I would have much bigger influence on the situation and could direct him towards the help he needs.

 

How did you get out of those difficult relationships?

 

I don't want to sound too negative but just walking away is too difficult for several reasons. Some of them are: I keep seeing him and her around where I live and also I don't have many friends to surround myself with (after being in an abusive relationship for years) and can't take a hobby because I'm too tied up with my children.

 

But thank you for your suggestions.

 

 

Hi Ellin.

 

I will try to give you some of my background.

I was married for nine years. For the first four years, he was great. I knew he was a recovering alcoholic. He was doing great - we were strong.

He relapsed, drinking straight vodka and doin drugs. he became very paranoid of people, basically a shut in. I moved out of the bedroom and onto the couch for the next 4 years. He had the master bedroom that I was NOT to go into too because I would find his drugs, alcohol, etc.

 

I covered for him with his family, my family, his work. I made excuses and took care of the home.

I LOVED him - I never wanted him to go through this, especially not alone. I begged him to go to counselling, he refused.

 

It was not until I was in independent one on one counselling that I realized that I was enabling him, and that I was as codependant with him as he was with me. The one thing I told the therapist was that this marriage 'could NOT fail'. She asked me why, and I could not answer - just cry. I knew that I loved him, but I knew the way I was living was killing me. I also knew I was NOT strong enough to leave him. Even though the therpist told me that he was dysfunctional, our child was seeing this (he was 4) and I was enabling and just as dysfunctional. Finally, with many therapy sessions and a LOT of codependancy groups and ALanon did I realize that 'wow - these people KNOW what I am GOING thorugh!!!' that I realized that losing the marriage was NOT as bad as I thought.

 

It was not until one christmas eve night that he was so drunk at my parent's home that he yelled and demeaned me and our child that I at that time KNEW it was time to leave.

 

I moved out, packed bag took kid and left.

We did try to reconcile, I only filed for legal separation first dependent upon him going to rehab. He refused stating he had no problem. That is when I went the next day and filed for divorce.

 

OK - what I meant by 'if he leaves his WIFE for YOU you would get more of the same' ... I mean his temper and his thinking. The way he flip flops. The way he thinks. He is as codependent as his alcoholic wife. He may so no - I am not - but he is. It's the WAY our brains change to cope and manage living with the alcoholic. Our self esteems are SO low .... our perceptions are NOT reality and we DO try to manipulate by NOT asking people directly what they WANT to do. WE try to coerce the person into doing what we WANT them to do. I a afraid that is what YOU would be dealing with if he does not get help with HIS thinking.

 

You could be the person that persuades him that living with an alcoholic for this length of time has really had an effect on his psyche,and to encourage him to go to Alanon. This is where he would get the most support - to know what effets his wife has done to him was NOT his fault, and for him to understand that he can only control himself, his actions and his emotions - NO one else's.

 

hmmm .... another point to think about: IF your children are still living with you, and you continue this A, and bring this man around your children, if he does NOT get any help with his thinking, he WILL bring his thoughts, the way he copes with situations, etc. (in the warped alcoholic enabling way) into your home and fammily. Think about that ......

 

The guy I dated that was codependant was just out of a 21 yr marriage. Every phone call I received he thought I was talking to a guy. He looked at my phone, called friends, looked at computer ... called me names ... blah blah blah. Flat out - I told him no more - LEAVE. I lived with this with the XH and promised myself that any other relationship that I found myself in would NOT be built on guilt, fears, or codependancy. He still calls - I ignore him.

 

Good luck!! I really do hope this works out for you, and he gets the help he sounds like he needs.

 

And remember: you being married to an addict (gambling) prior is a HUGE red flag that you COULD be attracting those types of suitors. don't allow it honey. You and your X are X for a reason. Think of some of the similarities that your X and your MM MAY have in common.

 

Break that cycle

[pureinheart]

I can give you my perspective. I lived what your xMM is going through.

 

When you live when an alcoholic, it is not only the alcoholic who becomes sick, but it is the spouse and family as well. As the spouse, your mind gets warped. You try covering for them, and you try controlling everything else around you because you know that YOUR life and the alcoholic is out of control. You become manipulative and codependant in some sick way.

 

Best thing for you is to walk away and not look back. Your xMM has a LOT of healing to do - if HE wants to truly break apart from that. That will be HIS decision.

 

I can honestly tell you that he will need support from people who have been there before (like Alanon) and that will really help him. If he does not get help, just leaves and you try to rebuild this relationship with him, you can probably expect more of the same from him.

 

It's THEIR thinking that needs adjusted, and from experience on BOTH sides (being the xspouse of alcoholic and dating a codependant) it is DRAINING and mind boggling.

 

How to walk?? You just do it and immerse yourself in other things. Surround yourself with friends that care and gt a hobby. Keep busy.

 

Good luck.

 

This is a very good reply MB...dealing with alcoholism or any kind of addiction is very hard.

 

Ellin I had a friend that was in the type of R that your friend and his friend are in....he called me all of the time to talk...lol...we were actually "friends"...omg he wanted out so bad although everytime he would get the courage to walk, she would threaten suicide (I personally take all threats seriously). She was alcoholic/drug addict (very bad).

 

Well he finally left and she committed suicide....he was devastated for months after that, feeling so very guilty.

 

This could be what is keeping him there. I seriously doubt that there is much if any love left...fear and comfort seem to keep people in bad places.

 

Ellin, take care of you, this is his deal, definitely not yours and in reading your post I sensed responsibility for him on your part...not that you feel sorry for him, although he is a friend and you may feel like you are abandoning ship so-to-speak....leaving him hi and dry with a mess on his hands...this is his mess or whatever, R.

 

I felt responsible to some degree with my SO. When I finally realised that this was his M, his D, his kids ect...then I was able to say hey, I need to roll. When I did this, he woke up and realised that he is responsible for himself and needed to treat me a bit better (he was not treating me very well). Things have been better since.

 

Also, something else that helped during this last NC period (and yes JJ it is GRUELING, I HATED EVERY MINUTE OF IT) was I found that I had myself so wrapped up in him that I had lost me somewhere in the process. Should you choose NC, I suggest that you find "you", if in fact you are lost.

 

GBU, my thoughts are definitely with you ((hugggs))))

[pureinheart]

I didn't read the entire thread before posting and just want to let you know that I didn't copy wheels reply...lol

 

I read what you said about coming to LS for a couple of reasons...you mostlikely need encouragement and love too. Most of the time deep down we know priddy much what we might do...we just need someone to bounce various ideas off of.

[pureinheart]

Dear Jennie.

 

Your posts are incredibly helpful and help me see things more clearly and in an 'organised' way, which is great because I have chaos in my head most of the time.

 

I surely never wanted to be in this situation. It was almost as if I woke up one day and 'found' myself in it.

 

You wrote once that it had taken you four years to find peace and work out the above formula, if I remember correctly. I'm not at that stage yet. I don't know what my answer to this question would be.

 

Right now I feel that I still have a lot to work through in terms of the dynamics of my R with him and his R with her. I need to know. I need to understand! This is one of the reasons why I can't just walk..

 

Ellin,

 

jennie and silverplanets have helped me more than I can say...they have helped me to see many things!

[Ellin]

Thank you everyone for these warm words of support! You are all such sweet darlings!

 

It's interesting how everyone has a different take on it and a different remedy. Due to one's own experiences, I suppose. Mine is different still.

 

Now my head is spinning even more. Why can't it just be simple...

[jwi71]

Why can't it just be simple...

 

It IS simple Ellin.

YOU have the power of CHOICE. Just use it.

Pick a course of action...

 

1) Fights for him

2) Walks from him

3) Do nothing

 

Yes...THAT simple.

 

Easy? Hell no.

 

You gotta choose otherwise you get number 3 by default.

And once you choose...you ACT...FIGHT for him or RUN.

 

Let me ask you this...why DON'T you FIGHT for him? Whats keeping you from giving 100% max effort to get him in your life? I mean, no holds barred knock down drag out FIGHT.

[MizzBlue72]

It IS simple Ellin.

YOU have the power of CHOICE. Just use it.

Pick a course of action...

 

1) Fights for him

2) Walks from him

3) Do nothing

 

Yes...THAT simple.

 

Easy? Hell no.

 

You gotta choose otherwise you get number 3 by default.

And once you choose...you ACT...FIGHT for him or RUN.

 

Let me ask you this...why DON'T you FIGHT for him? Whats keeping you from giving 100% max effort to get him in your life? I mean, no holds barred knock down drag out FIGHT.

 

 

JW - this is NOT just a MM/OW relationship here ... the dynamics are different.

 

She CAN'T fight 100% for someone who is

codependent and enabling an alcoholic.

I admit, there are a LOT of things on this board that I do NOT understand, but this?? THIS I get.

Maybe it is THIS black and white to you, but no - it's just not that easy.

 

I'll admit JW that I do not know your back story, but I rad Ellin's and it mimics a LOT of relationships that are unhealthy. The problem here is that she LOVES him. It may be easy for YOU to say fight 100%, but it's NOT that black and white.

 

IF she DOES fight for him 100%, then he will literally run her ragged emotionally if he does NOT get help with his codependency and enabling issues. Ellin also has to think about how when X's ARE substance abusers, they don't just easily walk out of your lives, so she would be dealing with that also.

 

Ellin - you take the time to decide. No - it is NOT black and white and it IS hard as hell to decide. I'm sorry that you are going through this.

[jwi71]

JW - this is NOT just a MM/OW relationship here ...

 

Yes it is. OK, ok...you're right...the "mm" isn't married to the neighbor, they don't have kids, they don't have financial ties and they don't have sex...but EMOTIONALLY, he IS "married" to her. SO treating this like a "normal" MM is appropriate in my view. In fact, and I have previously written to Ellin, those are all HUGE red flags for her. He can walk at any time...and does not.

 

the dynamics are different.

Nope. He won't leave and she wants him to leave. Same dynamic as almost every other OM/OW post. The twist here is the neighbor has several dependency issues and manipulates the "MM" with them to great effect. You are speaking about the "MM" and the neighbor...not Ellin and the MM.

 

She CAN'T fight 100% for someone who is

codependent and enabling an alcoholic.

Why not?

HE isn't the alcoholic, chain smoking "disturbed" neighbor...so, WHY can't she fight for him again? How does HE determine HER actions?

 

Maybe it is THIS black and white to you, but no - it's just not that easy.

I said the options were simple, not easy.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

I'll admit JW that I do not know your back story

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t159343/

 

I ultimately divorced her after a few more months of that crap.

(best. move. ever.)

The problem here is that she LOVES him.

Loving a single man is NOT a problem.

The problem is, as stated above, he ISN'T married, they have NO financial ties, NO kids, NO sex, etc etc etc and he CHOOSES to STAY.

It may be easy for YOU to say fight 100%, but it's NOT that black and white.

It IS black and white.

She fights for the object of her affection or does not.

She leaves the situation...or does not.

Or she does nothing. (which changes nothing)

 

If there is a fourth option ELLIN can DO...let me know. Let Ellin know.

IF she DOES fight for him 100%, then he will literally run her ragged emotionally if he does NOT get help with his codependency and enabling issues. Ellin also has to think about how when X's ARE substance abusers, they don't just easily walk out of your lives, so she would be dealing with that also.

I agree 100%. And its the answer to the question I asked Ellin (Why haven't you fought 100%).

Its WHAT Ellin needs to realize...she CAN'T fight. She can't DO ANYTHING to change his behavior. HE is EXACTLY where he wants to be. So, Ellin either accepts it (does nothing) or walks.

 

I personally hope she thinks this through, understands and accepts this twisted dynamic her "MM" and the neighbor have and WALKS.

 

Because she CAN'T fight or change him. Period. She fights, SHE loses.

She does nothing, she loses.

She leaves, she WINS.

 

And yes MB, it IS that black and white.

[pureinheart]

Thank you everyone for these warm words of support! You are all such sweet darlings!

 

It's interesting how everyone has a different take on it and a different remedy. Due to one's own experiences, I suppose. Mine is different still.

 

Now my head is spinning even more. Why can't it just be simple...

 

You are way cool....it will be simple eventually and you have to do what works for you. It's neat to get different ideas and hear of other peoples experiences. I tell you, it sure did help me back when things were kaotic.

 

Hang in there Ellin, good things still do happen to good people!

[pureinheart]

If there is a fourth option ELLIN can DO...let me know. Let Ellin know.

I agree 100%. And its the answer to the question I asked Ellin (Why haven't you fought 100%).

Its WHAT Ellin needs to realize...she CAN'T fight. She can't DO ANYTHING to change his behavior. HE is EXACTLY where he wants to be. So, Ellin either accepts it (does nothing) or walks.

 

What if she chose to stand back and see what happens? She does love this man.

 

One communication was my own experience.

 

Now I have chosen to stand back and see what happens, sort of detached for my own good, looking out for me in the event things don't work. I noticed this has given my SO time to get his stuff together (he's a hoarder, just like the TV show...lol).

 

Let her friend be the shot caller so-to-speak, when he needs to talk if she can be there fine, if not well he would have to wait till he or she is available again.

 

What I am trying to say is take the hard core emotions out of it (if possible) and expect nothing and simply be his friend, nothing more, nothing less. This is an option that helps both people involved, takes the pressure off for those who don't want NC.

[Ellin]

MizzBlue and Jwi.. nice discussion.. I can only say LOL.

 

Don't get me wrong, though, I really appreciate you taking time to reply and I can feel you both care.