My life is a mess.

[Sparkling]

What does he have to lose?

 

Reactant,

All your brother cares about is how he looks. He will care how he looks to you too whether or not he admits it. I have seen this played out many times. To an Indian pride is everything. It is their weakest link. Pride is their blind spot. So play on it from both sides.

 

Express your shame for him marrying for money and status, express your shame for the brown girl being a gold digger and like monkee says...be snarky about her and work it, express your shame for your parents for marrying for such superficial reasons as this. You will be speaking the truth. Use it against your parents...the brown only marrying for money and status, and how this cheapens their family for the brown girl to use your brother like this...... , and use it against your bro.

 

Rememember Reactant, your family accused your white gf of only being there for the money and because you were going to be a doctor....why is the brown girl there? she is ONLY there because of ALL the reasons they objected to the white girl for...so this is an even greater truth to use against the the brown girl. The hypocrisy of their argument is, they SET IT UP WITH THE BROWN GIRL FOR MONEY AND STATUS AND SO DID SHE AND HER PARENTS.

 

So why is it ok for the brown girl to be a money grubber??? Why do they approve of her? They KNOW she is ONLY there for the money and status because they arranged it on both sides of the Indian families!!

 

I said to my parents this morning after I read monkee's comment about the brown girl being nothing but a gold digger and how this shames my family because the only reason she is there is because of their money. She wants to USE us. (of course my parents are using her too)

 

We argued of course but they FINALLY agreed, because ultimately what else is it? She is a money grubbing gold digger. (and so are they) That IS the only reason she is there when you get right down to it. If we had none, she wouldn't even consider my bro. But, they argued around it. If mine heard it maybe his will. They might still be stubborn but they heard and every little bit helps.

 

I wish my parents would give my bro their approval so I could try the rest. Actually, I will work my bro anyway, what can it hurt. He loves someone else, not the brown girl and he admitted it to me finally.

 

Indians care about pride above everything, and appearances to their relatives and friends. It is sinful arrogance, but they won't admit it. He is only in this mess because they want to improve their social status and make other Indians envy them. Every argument his brother says is about his pride and how he looks. He wants to be important so he puts down his own bro to his parents and acts the martyr. It is all very selfish.

 

I agree with Monkeeman, you do what you have to do. Be snarky about the brown girl to your parents and your brother. Sooner or later they will look at her and see the truth whether or not they admit it. At least when they look at her and try to praise her for how wonderful she is marrying your family for money and status, it will be in their brains bouncing around how greedy she is.

 

For the first time reading these comments I laughed when I saw the brown girl is a gold digger. You nailed it. Work the part about how he will be the leader in the family on your bro....... Work your brother's pride within the family and community. It can work.

 

To an Indian, their pride is everything........, so it stands to reason if you hit their pride that will be their weakest link. Also, your brother loves another so he might like to find a way his pride can get out of this mess they put him in.

 

Get well!!

 

Also, more groundbreaking..your brother agreed about a few of your points, he still argued against them, but he did agree how Indians really are on a few.

 

your bros gf will be a weak link to use on him too since he loves her so bring her up a lot!!!

 

I think it is worth trying. From what both of you say about Indian pride, it sounds plausible. If you put his brother into the position of playing hero and leader where he would get the credit for opening up the races or follow in Gandhi's footsteps for equality....he seems vain enough he could possibly take to the notion. You won't know until you try.

 

I was hoping to see an update. Hope the poor guy feels better soon.

 

I am very concerned however because he stated his brother is going to have an engagement ceremony. I believe if he doesn't fight that engagement or ceremony as hard as he can he is pretty much doomed to be abused for the next eight years or for the rest of his life. He really seems to have no choice but to fight his brother's marriage to brown vs. white. It seems to be the key to me. If he lets them get married he will be forever having to contend with his brother playing martyr and his parents playing victim to him with EVERYTHING regarding the white girl. His bro already said NONE Of them would welcome her. So...like it or not. HE HAS to break up his brother's engagement somehow to the brown girl, and it is based on lies so it is already tainted. I pray each night he didn't already bless them. I strongly believe it would be a big mistake...one of the biggest he could possibly make if he ever is to have his freedom.

[Reactant]

"Be thankful you have a loved one!"

Your right, far too often I take advantage of J's patience andsometimes dont call her until 3 days have passed. Other times i would only speak to her for 15 minutes and that will be it. I have to start finding other resources to show my love for her.

 

"Would your Indian families say how much better they are are because they don't do that; or would they tell you with smug voices how they are all better than blacks and whites because Indians are more tolerant and respectful to those of other races and colors than blacks, whites, Americans or Canadians are?"

>>>Yes, though they dont normally say the reason is tolerance but how inidans are more family oriented and never let a fallen member down.

 

"There is always a pattern of behavior if you look for it among prejudiced people. They will build themselves up as they try to put others down."

>>>Very true, my parents have a list of reasons what wrong with each race.

 

"Arranged marriages were INTRODUCED ONLY as a means of keeping the lower caste systems segregated from the upper caste system. "

>>I did not know that.

 

"You do realize that the pattern of abuse most often runs in a cycle among families. You say within your social status conscious group of friends and relatives there is a pattern of abuse. Your relatives and friends abuse your parents; your parents abused your brother; your brother and parents are now abusing you and giving their all to break you;... where does this pattern of abuse stop? When will it end?

 

It will not end until someone has the courage to stand up against it. It will not end until someone chooses to stop "submitting to the habits and influences of your race" Do you want to continue on this path of enslavement and segregation? You do realize since your brother has joined into the pattern of abuse cycle and he WILL teach his children to do the same just as he is fighting you to do. His children may end up suffering from it just as your parents, brother and now you are if you don't choose to try to stop him.

"

>>>I mentioned this to my brother a while ago, he said the parents never abused him. He said he had one fight with them and that was it. He broke it off with her later on. He got very angry and said 'where are u learning this cycle of abuse garbage? Shes telling u this stuff isnt she?"

 

"Why would you or your brother choose submissive enslavement instead of fighting to stop abuse? Choosing submission isn't getting rid of the problem; it is enabling it."

Your right.

 

"I spotted some other contradictions in your messages, I will show you one:

In message number four you wrote this about your girlfriend, "Her family has always been terrible support."

"

>>That was my mistake, i mispelled what i wanted to say. I meant to say " Her family has always been terribly supportive." Meaning they were supportive my relationship with J since day one and even offered i live with them incase my parents ever kick me out.

 

"These people took time out of their lives to help you because you asked. They cared enough about a stranger who said his life is a mess to try to help him. Why didn't you take a moment of your time out of your life to show these people some respect back and let them know how you were? Avoiding a problem won't make it go away."

Your absolutely right. I have no excuse to taking a while to respond to everyones messages. I am sorry.

 

"I believe you will live to regret it if you give up this fight. "

I think so too... I really dont have a choice, i have to fight.

 

"Son, remember to fight for your brother too. At one time he didn't want this for himself but he has changed. So, please help him realize it. Help him even if he says he doesn't want your help."

>>>My brother doesnt want my help. He contradicts himself, at one point he told me he left her because it couldnt work since she would never fit and it was cause my parents too much suffering, and another time was because the relationship wouldnt work. I didnt want to say this, but his old girlfriend ®, is in the hosptial. From what the family has told me she was in late stages of breast cancer. She had surgery, but shes currently in a coma. I havent been able to visit as shes in Oregan and I cant sit down in a plane let alone sit down for more than 30 mins. U can see why its convenient for my parents to say that my brother can marry her now...R's parents are very angry at my brother and have sent letters to our home revealing to our parents the situation. I dont think my parents read much of the letters as tehy are enough to make into a book.

 

"why a female wasn't worthy of being in his family because she was white; and the viscious things he said to you about whites who would dare to enter into your family."

>>>My brother takes the position that he's afraid how if a caucasian female entered the family the ramifications it would cause the parents. It doesnt make sense for him to think a white female isnt worthy to enter the famiyl when he wanted his ex-g ® to enter before.

 

"Regardless of the however; they still live in Canada. Their intent upon moving to Canada was to form a new India?"

>>>Yes, a little india. My brother acknowledged that some of the things in the culture is questionalbe but he and my parents said this is how it is, and they 'cant' change it. They have no intention of changing it. My parents made the case that they are progressive interms that they are letting my brother marry any brown hindu girl regardless of cast. But thats as far as they want to go.

 

"This system your mom wants to keep in place where she is scared to death of her own relatives is not a better system. Do you think you could say that to her?"

>>>I have. She doesnt care, she doesnt want to be the change.

 

"Son, have you suggested your mom go see a counselor? You thought your girlfriend could use one; and your mom is behaving very similarly."

>>>She doesnt want a sole outside of the family to find out. Telling anyone, even a priest is out of the question for her.

 

"Have your parents or brother ever shown regret or compassion for the hurt they inflicted on your brother's white girlfriends? "

>>>My mom said she loves his ex-girlfriend. That shes a very nice girl. That my mom feels sorry for her (not about not allowing her to marry my brother, but about her condition).

 

"You mentioned her briefly; but did you try to help her with your brother?"

>>I have. i spent a long time trying to help. My brother never wanted to talk to me about his relationship with R as it was none of my business.

 

 

"For example when she discredits "all priests and labels them all crooked"; challenge that. Ask her why; what did they do. Pick one of their names out of the phone book and ask what Priest ___ did that was crooked?"

>>>Good idea. I will try this.

 

"his reminds me; there is a male, Indian comic who is very popular. He specializes in mocking Indians; but I don't recall his name. Russell ...?? He is a great example of friendly based self-mockery for his own culture."

>>>Russel Petters. Hes very popular in Canada. He said that everyone is having mixed marriages eventually we'll all be "beige."

 

"You mentioned your brother has barely known a brown girl he intends to do a ring ceremony with. Could you take as deep a look into her background, the imperfections of herself and her family, her behavior, her beliefs as your parents have done to you with your girlfriend and with all of those crooked priests and white people to show your parents all Indians aren't perfect or better than other races or religions? Sad as it seems; sometimes turn around is fair play applies if it makes your point."

>>>I dont know if its fair for me to pick on her as she didnt do anything wrong. He told me he met her 4 months ago and has been on the phone with her practically every night since. They plan to a have a ring ceremony in April.

 

"Isn't your mom spreading rumors when she says to you :all priests are crooked?" Challenge them. This I could have say to my mother: You mean you are afraid he will spread rumors and hate like you are? Are you afraid he will tell the truth about you and people will know who you really are inside?"

>>>I think i said something along those lines and i nearly got slapped.

 

 

"If the entire Indian community will pick on her; isn't it enough to convince them things need to change and how badly the Indian community is behaving?"

>>>Yes i have mentioned this many times and they dont want to be the instrument of change. They dont want to be segregated for this change, to them building up 50 years of an image throwing it away for this isnt worth it. They dont personally believe the marriage would even work as they dont see much cauciasian in general as they keep questioing the divorse rate (i disputed this dumb divorse rate argument but they refuse to look at reality).

 

 

" You said your mom speaks broken English; what about your brother, father and rest of your relatives? If they speak English, this argument isn't valid because they can communicate with her in English as she learns Hindi."

>>>My mom speak broken english. I speak broken Hindi/Punjabi. My brother and father speak english and hindi/punjabi. I know the argument doesnt sound valid, but they see it as a huge thing. They dont beleive she will learn hindi, they say its all talk.

 

 

"You could argue back that your parents are too old and stubborn and set in their ways; and that you are the wiser, more loving, non-racist"

Yup we celebrate all those things u have listed. The point my brother keeps stating over and over is (reworded) "you act like your all this great being. stop acting like u are better than us by calling us rasict, separtists or whatever, every culture is rasist, your rasist and quit acting all moral just because it suits your purposes!"

 

"In any act of desperation; it shows what you are capable of doing or how low you can go. They have a choice; and they made it."

A good friend told me that in the end of the day they will eventually get exhausted. They have 2 choices, either separate themselves from it or make peace with it.

 

Thank you so much Karena for the words of wisdom and the quotes for Hindism, the golden rule, and Ghandi! I have added them on to my document of quotes to tell my parents. I know in the end they'll just tell me i'm using the parts that suit my purposes and that i dont practice the rest of it.

 

THank you for the article on divorse rates and the wife burning. It was a sad but powerful read. I'm going to bring this up again. This is what they said when i brought this issue up>>> "only poor areas have arranged marrages, stoning and burning the wife, we have a higher standard and we arent like them so u cant compare us them"

[Reactant]

Hey everyone,

 

There has been some developements and i got myself in way more trouble...

 

I'm not in the best shape, but i can walk around and go out for a while. Anyway, J bought my parents a christmas present. She drove an hour to our house to drop it off. She rang the door bell and my mother answered. Its been over a year since my mother has seen J and didnt recognize her until i told her it was J. J tried to hand the gift bag to my mom but my mom stepped back. She said "we dont want" to J. My mother refused to take the present and told her "we dont celebrate christmas" (we really did though). Then my mom did something no one expected, she invited J to the guest room. I told my mom that J just wanted to drop off the present and be on her way. My mom then spoke to me in Hindi and siad 'if someone is at your doorstep, u invite them over, it doesnt matter if they are your enemy.' She insisted J stay and so she did.

 

I sat with J in the guest room and we waited. This was in the morning and my brother and father were still getting ready. My mom came to the guest room, dropped off some juice and assortments of sweets, nuts and left. J and me waited in the guest room for 30 minutes and no one showed up. When i confronted my mother and father in the kitchen, they said they have no intension of speaking to J. They said she is invited into the house, she can drink the juice and leave whenever she wants.

 

After informing J that my parents have no intention of speaking to them, she approached the door and was about to leave until my brother came from upstairs and said "please sit down, lets have a talk." J and my brother ® had a long talk. J was calm and collected the entire discussion and R tried to restrict himself from yelling. I wish i recorded their discussion, i'll try my best to recall from it.

 

J told him everything she was doing to make the transition easier for my parents to adjust to her.

-She wanted to make it easier for my parents by first learning the language and culture. She is reading books on the the hindu culture, has bought learning Hindi CDs and is registed in a Hindi classes to break the language gap.

-She reassured him that she is well versed in the delicate situation and understands where hes coming from. She undersands that she will have to commit to a lot of sacrifices.She also emphasized that she is not taking anything they are saying personally. She even caught my brother off guard when she asked him what positive actions are your parents doing for their son.

-my brother changed the topic by telling her a long metaphor and that slightly applied to the situation

-she warned him that this wont be the first time a mixed couple could enter the family, that other cousins or even the generation after us will have a mixed marriage. My brother responded that he doesnt care if others do it, but he doesnt want us to be the first. As the first will be the most critized and the parents will be segragated from the community.

-J was able to address every issue and concern my brother had, but then he finally went to the point that i still have trouble answering...

 

He gave the context (and this context is true)

-Since we have such a close relationship with our relatives we see and talk to them everyday ( i have over 24 relatives living in my block alone!) The status and respect my parents have been building for 55 years will be tarnished the moment everyone finds out about me and J are married. My mom's brothers and sisters will never look at her the same and every gathering she has with the relatives (yes we have get togethers practically every week) my parents would talk with their heads down. Every relative will indivudally come and ask my parents how they let their son marry a cuacasian girl. Constantly reminding them that they are a failures as parents. They will be used as escape goats if any of my younger cousins decide to have a mixed marriage. Its not like my parents have many friends outside their culture. Its the culture they have been raised in and live in today. My relatives wont talk down much to us but they will to our parents.

 

To give an example, my aunt A. Her two children got into troubles with the law frequently. Our relatives now all look down at their mother (aunt A). Everytime she comes to relative gatherings she has her head down, no one asks for her opinion on anything, she last to know anything, and she cries many of the times i've visited their home. The sad thing is, her 2 sons have stopped getting into trouble, finsihed thier highschools and are now in college. The picture will be similar to my parents when the relatives find out. My parents will be outkasted and there is no exaggeration in this.

 

J's answer to this was that parents should always put the child's happiness above their own. Its unfair for them to demand this. When the relatives find out she and I will do everything in our power to make their lives easier. I forgot what solutions she stated so i'm going to email her and ask her if i can paste what she wrote on this forum.

 

J's lower back has been hurting her for 2 weeks and she had trouble sitting down on for a long peroid of time. After speaking to my brother for 2 hrs, she had to stop the discussion because the pain was getting unbearable. She left while purposely leaving her present behind. Just before she exited my home, i whispered to her that i'd meet her in the car before she left.

 

Once she left. My family began screaming at me. They were furious why she came to this house ( i should have told them earlier, it was my fault). My mom noticed the gift bag was left behind and she demanded i return it back to her otherwize she will throw in the garbage. I told my parents that i wasnt going to stay for this, and its time i spent some time with J. Its been weeks since i've seen her once (and 4 months before that) and i'm going to see her now. My parents forbid it, my brother said to come back in 2 hrs, i told them i wasnt asking, i was telling. With that, i picked up the gift bag, put on the first coat i saw in the closet (turned out to be a women's coat) and walked outside. I finally spent a day with J and it was magical. We didnt do much, other than go to her home, meet her parents, open my chirstmas presents, and finally head back to my home 6 hrs later. When i returned, we had guests, once they left my parents havent spoken to me. This was yesterday. This is the first time in my life that i left the house without my parents permission. My brother hasnt done this either and yes its a huge deal to do this in our culture. Today my uncle is home and my parents and brother speak to me minimally. Once my uncle heads back to work tommorow, i know hell will break lose all over again...

[Reactant]

"I am sick today but I wanted to see if Reactant was ok. I was worried.."

>>>Thank you. I'm amazed people still read about my troubles and care to write. Thank you.

 

"I knew women were commonly beaten by their husbands, I mentioned that. Nobody ever seems to care, they just keep advocating arranged marriages like they are a blessing and so much better when they are not."

>>>It never made any sense to me either.

 

"When someone comments about some of these things which are mean and racist by your family, you sometimes later defend them and say you don't view them as racist, like your brother for example."

>>>Yes your right, some people in this fourm have also called me out on that.

 

"I am now of the opinion that I agree with you Sadgati, all that matters to them is money, skin color, and a higher place in society, plus, someone to become their slave; oh, and let us make sure relatives and friends will ENVY them like one of you stated...;"

>>>Your points are valid, but i hope we didnt turn this into a hate indian thread lol.

 

"As you also referred to Sadgati, the women who are victims still face ostracizm from their own families and societies if they report the crime; so how many go unreported?"

>>>That's one thing i cant get my head wrapped around. I know this stuff happens in india and its assumed it only happens in rural areas, but why are Sadgati's relatives allowing this to happen here, i pray Sadgati's aunt has the resources to pull through out of this mess. I hope the family provides more support for her too.

 

"Did you bless your brother?

-If you like the white girl better...SAY SO. Before it is too late. Your bro still loves the white one, so SPEAK UP. "

>>He knows i always liked his ex-girl, we had a close relationship where she called me her little bro. She cared for my brother more than anything in the world. I never truly gave him the blessings i just said if she makes him happy then go with her. Theres no way he'll go back to his ex-girlfriend, espically since shes in the hospital.

 

"Your bro's white girlfriend doesn't have anybody from your family if she doesn't have you."

>>She accepted that my brother has left, but didnt want me to carry on his mistakes. Before she took her surgery, she sent me a 20 page email. I never finished reading it because it was too emotionally intense for me to read. I have to read it again soon.

 

"She deserves some love and respect from someone in your family after the abuse she received from them."

>>>For the longest time, i felt my brother didnt deserve her. He had a terrible anger and would say nasty things to her sometimes. His ex-girlfriend was much better than him in so many ways. I just wish she wasnt so sick all the time. My brother now tells me he broke up with her for reasons outside of race. There is no way my brother would want to go back to her espically given her condition...nor would my parents.

 

"Does his new brown gf live near you?"

>>She lives in Oregan,Portland USA.

 

"-You mentioned he was still in contact with his white gf and told her he loved her very recently, and didn't you say it was while he was with this brown girl?...and he still told the white gf she was the one he loved?"

>>>Very recently is 3-4 months ago was last she mentioned he told her he loved her. He also met the brown girl about 4 months ago and has been talking to her on the practically everyday i'm told from my parents. The brown girl is a school teacher head of the math department.

 

"-You need to fight him hardest of all because if you make your parents realize what they have done to him by using her, it will make things better for you. "

>>>They praised my brother for following with their request so quickly. They know what they did and they're proud of their son for listening.

 

"-Since your parents put themselves BEFORE their own sons...MAKE THEM FEEL AS GUILTY as you can for what they did to your older brother. Don't make it easy on them. "

>>>How can i make them feel guilty when he doesnt show any resentment towards them for their request. He in fact tells me it was a wise choice for letting her go. How can they feel guitly for asking their son to lose his girlfriend when he agrees with them? I remind them that what they are doing is racist is not something God would promote but nothing seems to make them change their mind.

 

" Like I said, my whole family liked my brother's white girlfriend UNTIL the M word was mentioned. Then storms grew in my house, and my brother went down for the knockout. "

>>Yup, but the storm didnt last long.

 

"One other thing besides if you liked the white ex gf or not....

you mentioned your dad knew about your brothers white gf when you said about your brother fought with your dad for her? So, they knew about her already? "

>>>MY dad remembers now, they did have a fight about it.

 

"suddenly, I just felt this calm come over me and it may sound strange but I felt God was with me. "

WAY A GO Sadgati! I know what u mean, when u feel rightousness is on your side, you cant feel nothing but empowerment.

 

"Oh, one more thing. you keep saying "in the Indian tradition I am told" or something similar...... remember it is mans tradition not Gods."

>>>Yup. I remind that to my parents many many times. Congrads for telling like it is, i read your post much earlier but i want to reply to everyone in order.

 

"Quick question. Maybe this is just the girl in me thing. Which girl is prettier in your eyes, the brown one or the white one. Odd question I know, I know, I know...just curious."

>>>I never like to answer this sort of question. I drive my friends crazy, i like to know a person before i ever comment how they are. A personals peronsality dictates so much of who they are. I dont think its fair for me to commment as i dont know the brown girl that well. I will tell you that his exgirlfriend had a very large heart and an infectious personality, people natually drew towards her.

[gmb2187]

I have been reading through this thread and I am afraid to give my opinion considering I can't even hold my own **** together. PLEASE some of you have great insight, please look at my thread and give me some advice. I am crushed and don't know where to begin.

[Karena]

>>>Yes, though they dont normally say the reason is tolerance but how inidans are more family oriented and never let a fallen member down.

-----Most caucasians don't let a fallen family member down either. Most caucasian families are very close. Most caucasian families don't come from the Jerry Springer show, which is just a form of entertainment. How about your white girlfriend and your brother's families? Aren't they close? Being close and standing by a fallen family member isn't only done exclusively by Indians. So, NO they aren't more family oriented. Just look at how abusive your relatives would treat your family if you married white..and you see the hypocrisy of this statement they said to you.

 

----how about all of those Burned Indian brides?...they are Indians within the same culture as your family. Do I look down my nose at all Indians now and say how they sure do NOT stand by their fallen family members, they burn them.

Also, your parents and brother continue to argue how your family, relatives and peers will cast them out and look down on them. They are contradicting themselves again. They certainly do turn their backs on family members within your own personal family..and they abuse them because that is what your parents are afraid of. You said yourself they will abuse them and treat them as outcasts as if they committed adultery. How can they tell you such silly things about all caucasians when they argue their own family won't stand by them if you should marry one girl who is white. None of them stand by family. None of them. They only stand by you if you let them control or manipulate you, or when it is easy and they don't have to put themselves out.

 

To think they would lump us all into the same basket and say or infer we don't help family members is ignorant. Don't let them sit on that pedestal claiming they are the only culture who does that because they are NOT. Most white people are there for their family and for their friends. We invite them to stay with us in our homes if they have a need. I will have you know, a good majority of those within western cultures are also right in there fighting for other cultures and races too...including in India. You have good and bad in each culture and when they bring up something negative about another culture, you should retort and bring up negative about your own family and your own culture. Use their treatment of you as an example. I am certain within your own family and friends you know those who do things wrong, who argue with their families, who perhaps have been jailed. It all happens everywhere. Your family is an example of fighting within the Indian families, and hiding so your uncle won't hear.

 

>>>Very true, my parents have a list of reasons what wrong with each race.

.......they are bigots and racists. Time to ridicule them. They want the privileges they can have from a western society, but all they do is put everything about that society and the people within it down.

 

>>>I mentioned this to my brother a while ago, he said the parents never abused him. He said he had one fight with them and that was it. He broke it off with her later on. He got very angry and said 'where are u learning this cycle of abuse garbage? Shes telling u this stuff isnt she?"

 

........So, he admits he had a fight with them, and he then broke it off with her......It must have been one huge fight since he broke it off with her afterwards. It also shows they DID indeed put pressure on him. It also shows you that he made a token effort to fight them, but he quit and gave up. You aren't quitting!! Tell him you learned the cycle of abuse from your own experiences listening to him and your parents calling him names all of the time, and because they are all cowards around your relatives because they are afraid THEY will abuse them because you all have seen them abuse others. Perhaps your own parents and brother have also been a party to abuse toward other family members if they disagreed with them and ostracized them since you have said they all do it within your culture and among your relatives and peers. These actions don't make them morally superior to those within western culture when so many, many family, friends and peers would treat one family with such disdain due to ONE color.

 

as for the rest.......oh come off of it...,who does he think he is fooling? They ARE abusing you so they ARE abusive parents. They specifically cried on your shoulders about how ALL of your relatives and ALL of your friends will yell at your parents, will scold them, will ostracize them, they will be outcasts for simply being with a white girl? They worry how your peers and relatives will treat them, look how they have treated you...it is a viscious cycle of abuse. You know for your brother to change from a white girl he loves to a brown one for color he has indeed been pressured, forced and brainwashed into finally agreeing. He is abusive, and to teach this hatred and contempt for all the people within one race to someone is another form of abuse.

 

Who does he mean when he said "she" is telling you this stuff? He thinks it is wrong if you listen to "she" or are led by "she"? But, if you are led around by the nose with them, like your brother is, they are angry at you because you aren't allowing yourself to be "led" by them. It doesn't bother them if they are the ones leading you or brainwashing you.

 

Who is the she your brother referred to? Tell him you have a mind of your own, which he does not. He only follows along with the crowd like a sheep. He told you himself, well,....everyone else is so I have to do what they did?? All churches are racist so they have to be; all cultures are so they have to be; your family is racist; so they have to be. So, who is doing his thinking for him? He is a proud sheep and follower of the racism crowd. It is too bad they don't listen to God. Challenge him because what he thinks is so important, is only him being cowardly and content to follow along with a racist bunch of people, and he acts as if he doesn't have a brain of his own. This is my honest opinion. He doesn't have a brain of his own, he IS like a sheep following the crowd.

 

>>>My brother doesnt want my help. He contradicts himself, at one point he told me he left her because it couldnt work since she would never fit and it was cause my parents too much suffering, and another time was because the relationship wouldnt work. I didnt want to say this, but his old girlfriend ®, is in the hosptial. From what the family has told me she was in late stages of breast cancer. She had surgery, but shes currently in a coma. I havent been able to visit as shes in Oregan and I cant sit down in a plane let alone sit down for more than 30 mins. U can see why its convenient for my parents to say that my brother can marry her now...R's parents are very angry at my brother and have sent letters to our home revealing to our parents the situation. I dont think my parents read much of the letters as tehy are enough to make into a book.

 

------------Do you want your brother's help? Does he care or respect your right to have your own business private? He is butting into your business, so you can butt into his. You need to be less considerate of him and his abusive ways. He butts in to yours, so that gives you the right to butt into his business. Yes, your brother contradicts himself. Do you notice he still doesn't deny he loves her? He doesn't deny he is using the Indian girl?

 

.............. oh my God. He told her he was still in love with her and NOT the Indian girl ONLY because she was white, ...... AND THEN HE LEFT THAT POOR WHITE GIRL TO to go through this surgery alone while he takes up with a brown girl he doesn't love and arranges a ring ceremony? (what is the ring ceremony? the wedding?)

 

-----What kind of a monster is he? Your parents won't bother reading her last words? Did your brother read them? They are completely without a heart. Was this why she gave up her fight? Is what your brother did to her why she gave up? The timing is too tight to be otherwise. I am crying for her. You must love your family but I tell you son, your parents and your brother are ......... miserable excuses of human beings and they have no morality and no soul to do this to a girl fighting cancer, so don't let all their high and mighty talk fool you. They can't justify their morality with this. Morality includes moral conditions AND conduct. They are not conducting themselves as people with moral values. Take a moment to look up morals in the dictionary. They pertain to more than sleeping around. It is about behavior, conduct, ethical, right or wrong, and it also concerns YOUR CONSCIENCE. What they are doing is morally wrong. Their conduct is deplorable. This right. It is wrong. They have no higher morals than other cultures.

 

Does your brother know about the letters? God have mercy on their souls. They PREACH at you about how they are there to help the fallen, all the while they step all over a dying girl.... so, that is a bald faced lie, they don't help the fallen at all...she is dying!!!!!!!!!!! They only help someone if it helps to make themselves look good. What would your relatives think if they knew how your parents and brother treated a dying girl? What kind of a person would do this? Your parents and brother wouldn't know how to speak the truth if it came down and hit them over the head. They have an exalted view and opinion of themselves that is NOT the reality.

 

You said "R" fit for eight years, and you said even your parents said they loved her in a previous post.....my God. For her to earn their love says a great deal about her character since they are so picky toward all other white people. She must have been amazing to accomplish this. SINCE she won over your family and has their love...this means they couldn't find fault with her. So, I ask you... Is this how they treat someone they love? You said she was willing to do anything it took. So, what does your brother do? The girl is dying and he throws crap all over her. Not only that they ridicule the letters as being too much to bother reading? The girl is dying damn it! If she wanted to pour out her heart to them.....take time to READ IT. Give her some respect!!!!!!! Give her some help! Cut her some slack. She stayed with your brother for eight ? years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are they afraid they might have to look into their souls if they read the words of a dying girl?

 

>>>My brother takes the position that he's afraid how if a caucasian female entered the family the ramifications it would cause the parents. It doesnt make sense for him to think a white female isnt worthy to enter the famiyl when he wanted his ex-g ® to enter before.

------------this is where he lies again. SOMEONE made him have a change of heart..who else? Your parents. NOTICE YOUR BROTHER SAID HE IS AFRAID..CALL HIM ON IT!!!HE MADE THIS CHOICE BECAUSE HE IS SCARED!!!!!!!!!! We keep trying to tell you what a coward he is, now he admits it and you see it is true. Call him a coward. He left a girl who loved him dearly and who he loved because he was scared. He ran...yes, RAN because he was scared and he left her to die alone.

 

>>>Yes, a little india. My brother acknowledged that some of the things in the culture is questionalbe but he and my parents said this is how it is, and they 'cant' change it. They have no intention of changing it. My parents made the case that they are progressive interms that they are letting my brother marry any brown hindu girl regardless of cast. But thats as far as they want to go.

--------------They want to remain racist. Slavery was practiced also, but people knew it was wrong and worked to change it. Why won't your family since they know it is wrong? They could make a change. They sure can make a change, to say differently is to lie. It takes one step at a time.

 

For the first time since reading this forum I think there are some Indians, your parents and brother, who do not deserve the privilege of being allowed into a western society. They were given a privilege, and for that privilege now they are crapping on those who took them in and tried to help give them a chance for a better life. Now they are trying to keep out those same people who allowed them in. Our society is NOT exclusive, NOT segregated it is inclusive.

 

Segregation is illegal. They lost their privilege to be here, because segregation is not allowed in western society. They won't like it if a western society tells them they don't belong because of their color and they don't want them here. So, listen to them.........listen to them carefully and see what evil and hypocrisy is inside them.

 

And about your parents saying...'any brown girl'... Sorry son, but that isn't a choice. That is an ultimatum. You do as I say and that is final....

 

>>>She doesnt want a sole outside of the family to find out. Telling anyone, even a priest is out of the question for her.

....then it is time they found out. Spread the word. She no longer deserves respect after the way they treated that poor white girl. How cruel they are. How cruel.

 

>>>My mom said she loves his ex-girlfriend. That shes a very nice girl. That my mom feels sorry for her (not about not allowing her to marry my brother, but about her condition).

 

-----didn't you just say now your parents said he can marry her? I repeat, this is how your family treats someone they claim to love? What happened to all of their haughtiness about helping the fallen they were so quick to brag about? She has no support from any of them. My instincts tell me she is in this worsened state because of what your brother did to her. He took her soul and her spirit at the same time she was fighting for her life. He was cruel, visciously cruel.

 

>>I have. i spent a long time trying to help. My brother never wanted to talk to me about his relationship with R as it was none of my business.

----the hypocrisy of this is he thinks your relationship IS HIS BUSINESS.

----TALK about the white girl...she has earned your respect and his trust....he doesn't want you to talk about "R" because he isn't proud of how he treated her. Also, since he still loves her, he would be comparing whoever he had to marry unfavorably. So any good feelings you have about her talk about. he gets into your face to say mean things about your girlfriend. Get into his face and say mean things about his. After all, his brown girlfriend IS after his money, and SHE makes herself look greedy marrying for money. You know how they don't want a greedy white girl in the family. So argue against her. I believe most of us agree about this.

 

>>>I dont know if its fair for me to pick on her as she didnt do anything wrong. He told me he met her 4 months ago and has been on the phone with her practically every night since. They plan to a have a ring ceremony in April.

------------did you bless them?

--------------Is it fair of them to treat his white girlfriend "R" like they have?

-------------is it fair of them to treat your girlfriend like this?

---------is it fair of them to put down someone because of their color?

------------isn't it wrong to marry a person for money, social status, color to make your parents look good?

---What about what is fair to the white girl who was with him for eight years and discarded due to being the wrong color????????? Doesn't anyone in your family concern themselves with what is fair for her?

----how fair was it for them to turn their backs on a white girl fighting for her life? Isn't she more important? Isn't she worth fighting for? They all say they love her so what is stopping you or them?

----------Who is there caring about the white girlfriend and what she is going through? NOBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your brother is leaving her alone to die for God's sake, why are you so concerned about a brown girl who your brother doesn't love who is greedy, while the white girlfriend lays there dying? What is more important to you?

-------Which is more important? her being alone to die or your little brown girl who is after his money?...the same money your parents challenged your white girlfriend's motives about, so CHALLENGE THE BROWN GIRLS. You told us yourselves about the list she had to provide to be considered entrance into your family, and the other way around for your brother.

 

I have no doubts this is fair to challenge the brown girl's integrity and her motives for being in your brown family. They are the same as the ones they accuse your girlfriend of having. She is marrying your brother for the wrong reasons and he is marrying her for the wrong reasons. Challenge him as much and as hard as he challenges you and don't let up for one minute. Do your own "intervention".

 

They are ALL tainted. Now more than ever, your brother is tainted, she is tainted too... He is jeopardizing his own soul. It is also about truth and justice. The brown girl is with him for MONEY AND STATUS as you told us over and over. I now consider your brother corrupt.

 

He NEEDS to be there for his white girlfriend. My God can't she even leave this world in peace or with his love? If she is in this position because of your brother.......even though I don't like your brother it isn't about him...it is about what will help his white girlfriend laying there alone in a coma. I believe he put her in.

 

>>>I think i said something along those lines and i nearly got slapped.

....but they aren't abusive according to your brother? They should slap your brother for how he speaks to you and about you.

 

>>>Yes i have mentioned this many times and they dont want to be the instrument of change. They dont want to be segregated for this change, to them building up 50 years of an image throwing it away for this isnt worth it. They dont personally believe the marriage would even work as they dont see much cauciasian in general as they keep questioing the divorse rate (i disputed this dumb divorse rate argument but they refuse to look at reality).

----when they die and meet their maker, this false image they have presented to the world will be revealed for what it actually is. It won't be good for them. They left a girl to die only because of her color, so their son would marry a brown girl. Look where their values lie...their image. All that is important is an image, and you now know it is based on evil and lies. If they looked at that image in water, it would show just how distorted an image they have of themselves. The way they have treated that white girl is evil son. Evil. If they ever, ever, tell you about how Indians are better about anything than another culture...or treat people better.....you remember what they did to this girl, and you don't forget it.

 

>>>My mom speak broken english. I speak broken Hindi/Punjabi. My brother and father speak english and hindi/punjabi. I know the argument doesnt sound valid, but they see it as a huge thing. They dont beleive she will learn hindi, they say its all talk.

----so long as they can communicate is all that matters no matter what the language is. Your brother's white girlfriend earned their love, and she listened to the same broken English and didn't care right? They all got along.

 

Yup we celebrate all those things u have listed. The point my brother keeps stating over and over is (reworded) "you act like your all this great being. stop acting like u are better than us by calling us rasict, separtists or whatever, every culture is rasist, your rasist and quit acting all moral just because it suits your purposes!"

---------hypocritical of him since they are all saying how wonderful Indians are and how much better he is than you all of the time, and they continue to tell you how much more moral they are than white people or those of other races. ... he deserted this white girl when she needed him. ..so I strongly question his morals.

 

Son..., you need to challenge him back when he puts you down. Say this back to him...he is acting all moral because it suits his purpose when he is actually a coward. Tell him to look up the definitions of the words bigots, racist, and segregationists , and they are exactly your brother and your parents. Challenge how he treated his white girlfriend, because now I would add a few other words to the list. Evil, cruel, heartless....and very close to murderer. When someone is that ill....my God...more stress or abandonment is the last thing she needed in a fight for her life. He threw a huge pile of manure all over her and suffocated her while she was already struggling to live.

 

"Thank you so much Karena for the words of wisdom and the quotes for Hindism, the golden rule, and Ghandi! I have added them on to my document of quotes to tell my parents. I know in the end they'll just tell me i'm using the parts that suit my purposes and that i dont practice the rest of it. "

----you are welcome. You might not appreciate my words today because they are very harsh toward your family. I am enraged as you can undoubtedly tell. My God, that girl is dying and all they care about is their image? Their image? Their image is in muck in my book. I personally have NEVER heard a family so self-involved as yours is. They are very narcissistic. They sit there bragging about themselves while their own actions contradict what they just bragged about as being better than the people they are putting down. At the same time, they are putting down everyone else because they aren't as perfect as they are...while at the same time they are saying how evil their own relatives and peers would be...?? They talk in circles and they don't see those wonderful traits they are bragging about aren't inside them at all.

 

THank you for the article on divorse rates and the wife burning. It was a sad but powerful read. I'm going to bring this up again. This is what they said when i brought this issue up>>> "only poor areas have arranged marrages, stoning and burning the wife, we have a higher standard and we arent like them so u cant compare us them"

----that isn't true. Your parents are still doing arranged marriages. They selected the social status, color and money for your son. That is arranged marriage for money and profit. They do stone people with their harsh words, or cast them out of the family. They say they aren't doing castes? Well, why choose the lighter brown color then? Why choose someone who can give them more money? If they aren't choosing castes why not select from a poorer girl who has a good heart? They ARE following the caste system. They are still giving ultimatums who you can marry. You don't have real free will or free choice.

 

Also, I take exception to their so-called higher standard which is to let the girl die alone while they worry about their self image? Son, their high standards they view themselves as having aren't high standards...someone with high standards doesn't push a dying girl off the bridge and assist in her death and walk away worrying about their own image.

 

......you sound like you love your brother's white girlfriend .....do this last thing for her. Fight your brother against this brown girl and do it for yourself and for her...and for him. Don't let those eight years she spent loving him and him loving her to have been just a waste of time for her. Let her have some dignity and love and peace of heart. Your family doesn't let a fallen member down? She was a member for eight years...and they let her down. Oh God, that girl must have been grieving and suffering thanks to them. He told her he loved her but had to marry a brown girl because she was the wrong color, and did this while she was going to have to go through a surgery and fighting a disease?....and your parents have that false image of how great they think they are....oh, My God.......Your family is cruel and abusive...cruel.

 

I am probably going to be chewed out for improper letter construction, but don't bother because I am riled up and can't be bothered this time. I am crying my eyes out. My heart goes out to that girl. All of this for one color......one color. She had everything else going for her, just the wrong color.

 

I realize this is also long, but like Sadgati on another day, I was enraged after finding out what they had done to that girl and vented. I feel total complete frustration with your family. They are far away from the martyrs they build themselves up to be, and their self-image couldn't be further away from the truth.

 

As I previewed this post, I see you wrote another. I want to add one more thought for now...it is about your brother saying he broke up with her for reasons other than race. How odd since he originally argued it was only for color. Even your previous post with your family intervention, he ONLY argued he broke up with her for her color and how he CAN'T because of it. Also, since he was with the Indian girl when the fact he told his white gf he would always be in love with her not the Indian girl........., so I don't believe the other reasons. Keep arguing for her...keep bragging her up. I believe it can only help. For them to deny her because she is sick is still evil and cruel. Now if they tell you again they help the fallen, you see it still isn't true, they walk on top of them. I guess the choice is yours, let them hurt people, or stand up for his white girlfriend along with your own, and stand against the brown girl who is a true money grubber. I am proud of your efforts.

 

Your family wants you to treat them with respect, while they treat people disrespectfully.

 

I am proud of you. Please continue shaming your brother for his white girlfriend's sake It is clear he isn't honest with you.

[Sadgati]

Hey everyone,

 

There has been some developements and i got myself in way more trouble...

 

I'm not in the best shape, but i can walk around and go out for a while. Anyway, J bought my parents a christmas present. She drove an hour to our house to drop it off. She rang the door bell and my mother answered. Its been over a year since my mother has seen J and didnt recognize her until i told her it was J. J tried to hand the gift bag to my mom but my mom stepped back. She said "we dont want" to J. My mother refused to take the present and told her "we dont celebrate christmas" (we really did though). Then my mom did something no one expected, she invited J to the guest room. I told my mom that J just wanted to drop off the present and be on her way. My mom then spoke to me in Hindi and siad 'if someone is at your doorstep, u invite them over, it doesnt matter if they are your enemy.' She insisted J stay and so she did.

 

I sat with J in the guest room and we waited. This was in the morning and my brother and father were still getting ready. My mom came to the guest room, dropped off some juice and assortments of sweets, nuts and left. J and me waited in the guest room for 30 minutes and no one showed up. When i confronted my mother and father in the kitchen, they said they have no intension of speaking to J. They said she is invited into the house, she can drink the juice and leave whenever she wants.

 

After informing J that my parents have no intention of speaking to them, she approached the door and was about to leave until my brother came from upstairs and said "please sit down, lets have a talk." J and my brother ® had a long talk. J was calm and collected the entire discussion and R tried to restrict himself from yelling. I wish i recorded their discussion, i'll try my best to recall from it.

 

J told him everything she was doing to make the transition easier for my parents to adjust to her.

-She wanted to make it easier for my parents by first learning the language and culture. She is reading books on the the hindu culture, has bought learning Hindi CDs and is registed in a Hindi classes to break the language gap.

-She reassured him that she is well versed in the delicate situation and understands where hes coming from. She undersands that she will have to commit to a lot of sacrifices.She also emphasized that she is not taking anything they are saying personally. She even caught my brother off guard when she asked him what positive actions are your parents doing for their son.

-my brother changed the topic by telling her a long metaphor and that slightly applied to the situation

-she warned him that this wont be the first time a mixed couple could enter the family, that other cousins or even the generation after us will have a mixed marriage. My brother responded that he doesnt care if others do it, but he doesnt want us to be the first. As the first will be the most critized and the parents will be segragated from the community.

-J was able to address every issue and concern my brother had, but then he finally went to the point that i still have trouble answering...

 

He gave the context (and this context is true)

-Since we have such a close relationship with our relatives we see and talk to them everyday ( i have over 24 relatives living in my block alone!) The status and respect my parents have been building for 55 years will be tarnished the moment everyone finds out about me and J are married. My mom's brothers and sisters will never look at her the same and every gathering she has with the relatives (yes we have get togethers practically every week) my parents would talk with their heads down. Every relative will indivudally come and ask my parents how they let their son marry a cuacasian girl. Constantly reminding them that they are a failures as parents. They will be used as escape goats if any of my younger cousins decide to have a mixed marriage. Its not like my parents have many friends outside their culture. Its the culture they have been raised in and live in today. My relatives wont talk down much to us but they will to our parents.

 

To give an example, my aunt A. Her two children got into troubles with the law frequently. Our relatives now all look down at their mother (aunt A). Everytime she comes to relative gatherings she has her head down, no one asks for her opinion on anything, she last to know anything, and she cries many of the times i've visited their home. The sad thing is, her 2 sons have stopped getting into trouble, finsihed thier highschools and are now in college. The picture will be similar to my parents when the relatives find out. My parents will be outkasted and there is no exaggeration in this.

 

J's answer to this was that parents should always put the child's happiness above their own. Its unfair for them to demand this. When the relatives find out she and I will do everything in our power to make their lives easier. I forgot what solutions she stated so i'm going to email her and ask her if i can paste what she wrote on this forum.

 

J's lower back has been hurting her for 2 weeks and she had trouble sitting down on for a long peroid of time. After speaking to my brother for 2 hrs, she had to stop the discussion because the pain was getting unbearable. She left while purposely leaving her present behind. Just before she exited my home, i whispered to her that i'd meet her in the car before she left.

 

Once she left. My family began screaming at me. They were furious why she came to this house ( i should have told them earlier, it was my fault). My mom noticed the gift bag was left behind and she demanded i return it back to her otherwize she will throw in the garbage. I told my parents that i wasnt going to stay for this, and its time i spent some time with J. Its been weeks since i've seen her once (and 4 months before that) and i'm going to see her now. My parents forbid it, my brother said to come back in 2 hrs, i told them i wasnt asking, i was telling. With that, i picked up the gift bag, put on the first coat i saw in the closet (turned out to be a women's coat) and walked outside. I finally spent a day with J and it was magical. We didnt do much, other than go to her home, meet her parents, open my chirstmas presents, and finally head back to my home 6 hrs later. When i returned, we had guests, once they left my parents havent spoken to me. This was yesterday. This is the first time in my life that i left the house without my parents permission. My brother hasnt done this either and yes its a huge deal to do this in our culture. Today my uncle is home and my parents and brother speak to me minimally. Once my uncle heads back to work tommorow, i know hell will break lose all over again...

 

-Today you won't like what I say. But, these are my opinions. If I read your update first, I might have felt elated. But, I read what you said about the white girl first, and I think what have we done? Not we on the forums, we as Indians. Today, I am viewing some things differently and not liking what I see, and that includes you because you are sounding like your brother and your parents IMHO. Karena isn't alone with her tears.

 

You worry people on the forums will hate all Indians. Based on what they are saying about people from other cultures, they have every reason to. But, you know this isn't true because of all these assortment of people who try to help you knowing you are Indian. Among them WHITE caucasians our families say and claim will turn their backs on the fallen?

 

Well, these are strangers, and they reached out to you to help someone who was fallen, and they didn't turn their backs on you. You KNOW that argument is baseless, but you perpetuated it worrying about how Indians will look on the forums. Plenty of white people or black people, or asians tell their troubles, and their first thought isn't how Indians or others will perceive their race as a whole. Notice white people are here to help.

 

You are too hung up on race. They are people. They are crying out for help from whoever offers it. We all need help sometimes, and we all are not perfect. We sometimes need someone objective to see a different point of view.

 

Your pride shows through, and pride is A SIN. Stop worrying about Indians on the whole and care about ALL people. It just sounds selfish and narcissistic. Indians like ours need to stop thinking only about themselves and realize there are a whole lot of other people in the world. If you have to judge, judge the individual not the race as a whole.

 

-I thought you were different but you sounded just like your family and your brother when you spoke about the white girl. You even rationalized their excuses as to why she isn't worth anything now because she is sick. Your only concern is being fair to a brown girl your family is USING. But, you forget she is USING them too.

 

Your words even struck me too as ridiculing her too ® illness and her letters. I feel disillusioned. You are writing that white girl off just the same as your brother and your parents did. You showed me how selfish you are being, just like most Indian men. HA, so much for all that jibberish about how great they are at helping the fallen! What a joke.

 

If what happens to another person isn't about you, they aren't worth much of your time to you are they? As strangers on a forum some of us became emotionally caught up in your story. You poured your heart out to us, and we ended up spending hours and hours of our time trying to help you sort through it all and help you.

 

But, now you say a WHITE girl suffering from cancer, and who may be dying has no value, and is not worthy of your time. Oh, you didn't say it in those words, but you did say it. She has no value, not to you, not to your family. You don't care if she is treated fairly, but you do care if a gold digger is treated fairly? You want to be fair? You believe you are being FAIR to R? You sound like a hypocrite too when you talk that way. Besides that, you said R was ill and suffering but she took that time to help you prevent making the same mistakes your brother did. I feel like Karena did...MY GOD!! What have you done to her? You just use people or take from them and you don't think you should try to give anything back to help them?

 

Your values are twisted too. You mention how it is too bad she is sick all of the time? Why? Does her being sick inconvenience you? I thought you wanted to be a doctor? What kind of a doctor will you be with an attitude like that? How would you have felt if you poured your heart out on the forums asking for help and nobody bothered to read it, and nobody bothered to help you?

 

You did this to the white girl you say all of you loved her, but you turned away from her and never bothered to read all of what she had to say. There are a lot of ways to help someone, but all I heard from you were excuses, JUST LIKE YOUR PARENTS AND BROTHER KEEP GIVING. You can't be bothered to read her letters they were too long, they were too emotional (why wouldn't they be she is suffering from cancer and suffering from abuse LIKE YOU RECEIVED and didn't like?), nor can your parents be bothered because they are too long. Your parents and brother don't want her now because she is sick. But, if she wasn't sick he could marry her now. You can't be bothered to help her because YOU don't feel good. You can't be bothered because SHE is too far away now and it would HURT you to sit on a plane.

 

So, she is in a coma and you have all the reasons in the world and all the excuses in the world why it is ok for you to just shrug her off like she doesn't matter anymore. She also has family who needs support. I am sure this must be a living Hell for them or a nightmare. One white girl flushed down the toilet. YOUR FAMILY CLAIMS TO HELP THE FALLEN?

 

You are SUPPOSED to be a doctor? What kind of a doctor will you become? You won't have time to listen to a patient because their story is too long, too emotional, you can't go be by their bedside because you have some aches and pains...but theirs are worse and they are dying? Your whole family sounds callous and I feel deeply ashamed of all of you and what you are saying. You are the ones shaming the Indian race.

 

You even said R was good enough your parents loved her even though she was white....WHICH IS HUGE!!! She would have to be almost perfect to earn that statement. I am ashamed of you. Are you worthy of our time?

 

You said she loved you like a brother and was better than your own brother.....and you treat her this way? Your words sound hard and your excuses AND your brother's and parents are just pathetic. The girl is seriously ill.

 

-If it were me, I would read those emotional, too long letters and take them to heart. I would take each thing she said about your brother where he had told her how he was still in love with her even though he was having to marry a brown girl, or any other words or quotes which appplied. I would STAND IN FRONT OF YOUR BROTHER WHILE HE IS WITH THIS BROWN GIRL AND I WOULD QUOTE EXACTLY what he had said to his white girlfriend about HAVING to marry brown for status so he won't shame his family. AND I WOULD TELL HER IN FRONT OF HIM HOW HE SAID HE WOULD ALWAYS STILL LOVE THE WHITE GIRL. I WOULD TELL BOTH OF THEM TOGETHER WHY YOU FEEL THIS MARRIAGE BETWEEN THEM IS WRONG, AND WHAT IT IS DOING TO R. Why would the brown girl still want to be with him if she knew the truth? YES, TELLING THEM BOTH THE TRUTH IS FAIR. IF YOU DON'T, YOU ARE ENABLING HIM TO LIE TO HER.

 

I would take as many quotes as I could which made him sound as bad as possible, and I would stand in front of his brown girlfriend and your brother and tell HER what your brother said to the white girl about always loving her or being in love with her even though he was going to settle for any brown girl for her money.

 

I would treat him EXACTLY how he treated you and your white gf in front of your white girlfrend. He sought to intimidate her. I would tell the brown girl EXACTLY why she was chosen, colour, and monetary value, status. Let him stand beneath the inquisition and see how it feels. You would be telling the truth. He would have to lie his way out of it and you could watch it happen before your eyes. Let him squirm for a change. He is hiding and scared.

 

It is certainly fair because it is the truth. It is by far more honourable and fair to do than what you are doing to his white gf by flushing her down the toilet as worthy of nothing. Or, do you only care about yourself?

 

-The fact is, you may not have used the word blessing, but you gave him YOUR APPROVAL knowing full well how he felt about another girl and knowing what it has done to her or caused to happen to her. .WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? Who is there to care about the white girlfriend? She isn't dead yet. She may recover. You don't even sound like you know for sure if it is last stages of cancer or not. Did you bother finding out? Why are you writing her off?

 

You are indeed a hypocrite too and very selfish if all you care about is yourself. A doctor? You might want to reconsider your job and find another if you can't stand to deal with emotions.

 

Fair? You are worrying about picking on the brown girl because she didn't do anything wrong? Errrr...marrying for money and status and using people is wrong...but more importantly...YOUR BROTHER'S WHTE GIRLFRIEND WAS THERE FIRST AND SHE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG EXCEPT FOR BEING THE WRONG COLOUR. You are NOT PICKING the brown girl apart, YOU WILL BE TAKING YOUR BROTHER TO TASK AND TELLING THE TRUTH. It is ONLY fair that she realizes the truth. You are hiding things from her. Your brother had no qualms about picking your girlfrend apart in front of her face. TREAT HIM LIKE HE DID YOU, and challenge him in front of the brown girl

 

Your brother said he just doesn't want to be the FIRST! He has potential to be the leader and TAKE the credit. Your brother after saying many times it was about her race and her colour now tells you it was for reasons outside of race. So, brown people walk away.....like your parents say they don't. But, I don't believe him because he told his white girlfriend he would always be in love with her even though he had to marry brown, He told your parents and you it was about race so he doesn't shame them. He said he CAN'T, not that he doesn't want to. He clearly isn't in love with the brown girl.

 

You know he would be with R if not for race.....he told her he would love her always. In front of your own parents he said he can't because white would shame them. If he found an excuse to break it off, it was just that-an excuse- because it still ultimately was for her colour. He keeps saying and admitting it when he gives reasons. Bottom line is, he would be with her still if she had the right colour, and the excuse wouldn't matter. He told you so, his parents , and her

 

-Just so you know, you keep saying how your girlfriend is so patient. She is not patient. Not at all. She is playing you too. You really should stop making excuses for everyone on both sides, parents and gf, and try to be objective about this. I know it is hard when you are stuck in the middle. Why do you think you were feeling so strung out when you first posted? Have you forgotten? It is because she was pushing you to conform to her wishes, and your parents were pushing you to conform with theirs. She is NOT innocent.

 

Also, have you ever seen two men puff up their chests and stand in front of each other nose to nose yelling? They think they are right, they think they look tough or macho, but the reality is when observers watch them they are only thinking about how silly and out of control and stupid they look spraying spittle into each others faces?

 

You might be feeling proud of your girlfriend, but because of her lack of trust for you, and because of her own impatience, she just made things worse for you between your mom and her. Even if you understand why she might do that, like it or not, that house belongs to your parents. She came uninvited, which is rude. She knew she was VERY unwelcome which makes it worse.

 

You think she came bringing a gift of kindness, but that wasn't really why she was there at all, and you know it. It was just a front and an excuse to plant herself in front of their faces and puff out her chest and tell your family YOU are HER property. Men don't understand women. She came to puff up her chest in front of your mom and issue a challenge to her under the guise of a gift bringing which would make herself feel martyred and thus, superiour to your mom. You did martyr her. She drove a wholeeeeee hour to bring it. Your mom will know that is what she did, and she will know it was a challenge she issued.

 

That wasn't a peacekeeping mission your gf did no matter if she conducted herself well or spoke well to your brother. That was a war cry. She should have trusted you to let you fight that battle by yourself for awhile until they wore down. Arriving uninvited and unexpectedly knowing she wasn't welcome and putting your mom on the spot like that was rude and pushy and forward. It was basically a hostile move.

 

She wants treated with respect, but she can't win this respect from your mom if she intrudes on her and pushes herself onto your mom like this issuing silent but obvious challenges. She has eight long years.....but she exhibited no patience, no tolerance. what she just did was try to force herself off on them and push herself in. She was taking over and trying to control the situation herself when she needed to trust you to take care of it for now.

 

Eight years is a long time. She is too impatient, too pushy. I believe she senses your uncertainty about your love for her so this makes it more urgent for her to force herself in. Even a white family probably wouldn't appreciate someone they didn't like dropping by uninvited, unexpectedly when they KNEW they were not welcomed. The gift was a joke to cover up her challenge, and I understand why your mom refused it. Her intentions were selfish too.

 

This was your parents home and as such they have rights to what goes on inside it whether we agree or we don't agree, and she violated it. If she expects to ever be treated with respect or accepted, then she needs to remember to be more respectful and courteous to your mom. She won't accomplish this being so impatient and forcing herself down their throats. You aren't even convinced you are still in love with her yourself so why would you let her push herself off this way? It made things worse not better. Have her let you handle it FOR NOW, they are your family.

 

I do think you had every right to walk out of that house without permission. That took courage. Do you have the courage to help someone when it isn't about yourself or what you have to gain? (R?)

 

It was very funny it was a womans coat you grabbed! So much for the grand exit.

 

Your bro is sure bossy and controlling. Far worse than mine. Did you come back in two hours or stay out longer? I wouldn't let him boss me around. Tell your bro too bad he doesn't have courage like you do. Rub it in.

 

-you mentioned domestic abuse and my aunt. Why do you only believe this happens only in India or in rural areas? If your parents have you believing this, they are wrong. Your family is being abusive to your aunt. Maybe not beatings, but this may be just as bad or worse because it is never ending punishment, and notice you don't mention her husband or their father being snubbed just the female is shamed.

 

I told my uncle if he ever touched her again I would call the police because it is illegal here. Oh did I get in trouble for that. I have some still not speaking to me, but I don't care. I don't want to speak to people like that either. I snub them back. I will move away if I have to. Well, I care and would be sad but It was right to stand up for her. Especially before God. I was shaking all over but I still did it. I knew if he hit me I would call the police. A few of my cousins said they were proud of me and they didn't have the courage. What I am afraid of now is that she will just be too scared to tell if it happens again.

 

Even rich and wealthy people are often charged with domestic abuse, and it happens in all countries, all cultures. Money doesn't stop it. Education doesn't stop it. Saying it basically happens only among those living in the rural areas is just foolish because there is ever present abuse taking place within populated cities. I wouldn't push it off as happening elsewhere because it takes place everywhere..

 

I would not be at all surprised if you had men within your own family who slapped their wives at some time or another. Why do you believe you would find out if they did? They would make sure to hide it from everyone. They would make sure the woman didn't dare tell anyone. It wouldn't be his fault, it would be hers.

 

Why do you let them treat your aunt this way? Right there you have a chance to help her. I would walk over and put my fingers underneath her chin and raise her head up. I would smile at her. I would ask her opinion about something. I would take her hand and draw her forward into a conversation and let her know she is loved and welcomed by you.

 

If she stands apart take her hand and bring her in. Stand by her side. I would start treating her like the human being she really is instead of a filthy rat to be kicked away. Why do you stand by and allow this? Do something. Every little bit helps, and you will get some in your family who feel the same way and follow you once someone else does it first.

 

If you and your brother think it is wrong. Why don't you stand by your aunt? You are male, and it will be easier for others to do so if you start it.

 

-If your parents stand with their heads down, that is their first huge mistake. They need to be controlling it instead of letting it control them. Stand with their heads up!! Don't lower them. Don't ever lower them. If someone comes to complain...walk away. They don't have to listen. They are CHOOSING to let someone abuse them. Point out mistakes the other aunts and uncles children have made. You and I both know plenty our cousins do wrong, or sneaky. Start making a list and be prepared. Don't let them stand there and take it anymore even if it is hard

 

Your parents need to learn to tell other people it is none of their business.

 

Edit: By the way, when we speak of controlling Indians. Your brother barely knows the brown girl. He is rushing into a marriage. He just finished law school. So the truth is according to Indian custom and how controlling they really are. YOUR PARENTS have told him and ordered him it is time to be married so they can look good! He not only didn't have a colour choice, he wouldn't have had a choice in waiting to be married and they are rushing this on purpose. He is being controlled all the way. Too bad he can't be his own man and get off of the puppet strings being pulled.

 

Also, you said they wouldn't want her now based on her condidtion. But, they love her and they help the fallen? I feel contempt for them. Flushing her down the toilet.......like a waste product.

Edited December 30, 2009 by Sadgati

[Sparkling]

-J was able to address every issue and concern my brother had, but then he finally went to the point that i still have trouble answering...

 

He gave the context (and this context is true)

-Since we have such a close relationship with our relatives we see and talk to them everyday ( i have over 24 relatives living in my block alone!) The status and respect my parents have been building for 55 years will be tarnished the moment everyone finds out about me and J are married. My mom's brothers and sisters will never look at her the same and every gathering she has with the relatives (yes we have get togethers practically every week) my parents would talk with their heads down. Every relative will indivudally come and ask my parents how they let their son marry a cuacasian girl. Constantly reminding them that they are a failures as parents. They will be used as escape goats if any of my younger cousins decide to have a mixed marriage. Its not like my parents have many friends outside their culture. Its the culture they have been raised in and live in today. My relatives wont talk down much to us but they will to our parents.

 

To give an example, my aunt A. Her two children got into troubles with the law frequently. Our relatives now all look down at their mother (aunt A). Everytime she comes to relative gatherings she has her head down, no one asks for her opinion on anything, she last to know anything, and she cries many of the times i've visited their home. The sad thing is, her 2 sons have stopped getting into trouble, finsihed thier highschools and are now in college. The picture will be similar to my parents when the relatives find out. My parents will be outkasted and there is no exaggeration in this.

 

I had to take a deep breath to steady myself before writing. I don't pretend to understand Indian culture. But, I do understand human nature. This isn't a good picture you paint of your family. You say it is all true and you witness it. Let me try to illustrate for you what I mean.

 

Essentially you are saying your family behaves like a 'click' in school; a group of bullies in school; gangs on the street; and they are behaving as wild animals such as those in a wolf pack. They kick the wounded, weaker and casualties aside in their climb to the top. They abuse and dominate others along the way. This sounds a lot like a dictatorship as well.

 

You said your mom is number one and your dad number two. They live on this fairly segregated block as part of a gang where no outsiders are truly welcomed into the 'gang' (family) Your mom has become alpha female, and your dad is alpha male; or leaders of the pack. Her influence would be great in how others were treated within your family, as you have said so. You have repeatedly stated her only goal and all that matters to her is to be the one with the higher status, or the dominant one so they have more power, more status, more control. They will all have to follow their rules or they will severely punish them, or cast them out as in a wolf pack and like they did to your aunt. (and the brother's white gf) In return, f your parents lose control and status; then they will be cast out as alpha male and female and be treated just exactly like they have treated others along the way who they feel are beneath them.(exactly as they treated your own aunt)

 

Your parents want to sit at the top of the pack, snapping away and sitting on judgment of those they consider beneath them (and your mom's list of hate, contempt, and negativity is considerably long and grows with each statment she makes. That hate and contempt list includes: all priests not of her own, all other religions, all other cultures, all other races, any individual not of the same color, family members who have had a tragedy such as your aunt,...and yet, she will argue she is a religious woman?) They are also looking condescendingly down on those they consider beneath them.

 

How do they become alpha or leader of a gang or group of bullies or a wolf pack? To do this, they will fight, abuse, rip or tear apart, dismiss, belittle, demean, demoralize someone, or walk over those who are wounded, weaker, fallen, in need of help, or dying and dismiss them as a casuality...anything it takes to make them submissive to your will.

 

You might argue they don't because your mom said they help the fallen and express their love? But, the truth is they have trod on the fallen and the sick in their hour of need and helped torture them for it. (ex: aunt, brother's white gf)

 

How do you think a bully will become a leader in the school? By abusing people..., perhaps to the point where it could be considered torture much like they are doing to your own aunt. They don't let up on her do they?

 

For your mom to have reached this alpha status, she would be contributing to the abuse of people like your own aunt. So, your mom was fine with treating your aunt as an outcast and shunning her; you have watched your own mom abuse, mistreat and shun your own aunt. You watch it, but you don't step in to help her?

 

It is clear your mom's contribution to the torture, (any mistreatment which lasts for years has to be torture for your aunt) bullying, mental abuse, and ostricizing of your own aunt has continued for a very long time, years in fact. You stated the kids had now completed their schooling, they are going to college, and their lives have turned around. What does this say about the character of your aunt? She stood by her sons and to her credit she guided them until they turned their lives around and now they are becoming successful and leading productive lives. But, she is still condemned and given no credit. You know she worked hard to fight for her sons.

 

Your aunt outclasses your parents and your mom by far. Think of the inner strength and courage she has to display every time she goes to one of those gatherings knowing she is going to be abused or shunned for it. She is a courageous woman, and I am filled with pride for her. She deserves a lot of respect for what she has done.

 

Your parents had it easy with their sons, until now with white gf's. You were both scared of her, submissive, and allowed her to control you to the point your brother must be nearing 30 years old and he still won't leave the house without her permission? He is tied to your mom's apron strings, and this is just not healthy.

 

Does this torturing and abuse of your aunt by your own parents and the rest of the family ever end; or will it continue until the day she dies?

In my mind it would be prophetic justice if your parents had to taste the treatments they have dished out over the years. Also, for the contempt with which they treated your brother's white girlfriend even though they 'claim' to love her.

 

I feel no pity for your parents...none. They would be getting exactly what they deserved; because they have no honor or caring toward anyone but themselves, not even their own sons.

 

You and your brother are being USED by your own parents; just like some of those football dads wanting their son to be a football hero so they can vicariously live their own lives over again through the life of their child, even if the child doesn't wish it..where they want you to live your life for them and be the person they wanted to be instead of allowing you to decide for yourself; Or some of the beauty queen moms who wants to live her life over again precariously through her own child.

 

Your mom didn't help the fallen at all did she? She stepped on your aunt when she needed support the most. She didn't even get moral support, she just got trashed and abused. Now, your family is stepping on this white girlfrend of your brother's while she needs some support, or her family.

 

You do realize bullying people, and this is exactly what they have done to your own aunt, is wrong morally and ethically and before God. A bullying victim has to deal with all sorts of depressions, self-esteem issues, humiliation, (Your aunt cries) and some commit suicide because of it.

 

Bullying has even contributed to the deep rooted anger (not that it in any way justifies it; it does not) of most of the kids who have shot up schools? How many kids or adults stand around and watch someone being bullied, like you watch them do to your aunt, and don't stop it because all they can think of is they are scared they might be next, or they are glad it isn't them, so they enable the bully to continue? In this case with your aunt, and your brother's white gf, your mom is one of those bullying and abusing; and they are victims of HER abuse!

 

In a wolf pack, they fight for dominance until one wolf is severely wounded and can't fight, or dies, or rolls over and acts submissive...and they chase out the wounded. Your parents are demanding your aunt act submissive toward them. They are saying they will have to ACT submissive to your relatives if you marry white. NO, they don't. Just as Sadgati said, they would be choosing to, nobody can force you to act submissive. Your aunt was wounded, your brother's white gf was wounded...and there is no help for the fallen from a single one of you. Do you only help if it increases your social status?

 

Earlier you said your brother said how much your parents had sacrificed themselves. But, your parents haven't. They have and still do expect and demand you and your brother...and your white girlfriend J, and everyone else to sacrifice themselves for their (your parents) own lives so they can remain dominant. They call this love? They haven't and are not willing to give up one tiny thing. They have sacrificed nothing. The sacrifice is expected from their sons. This isn't what I would call love for your children. This is love of self.

 

Your brother is so scared and intimidated of your own mother that he left a girl dying and wounded so he could marry when your mom said to marry, marry to the color she said, and marry the girl she choose. ..and she admits it is for her own social status. She has left you all afraid to be yourselves, and she refuses to allow you to be yourselves.

 

Every move your mom and dad have made has been for themselves and about themselves. You should be able to see that now because they are telling you so themselves. They have given up absolutely nothing, and they are not willing to. But, they expect and demand BOTH of their sons to give up and sacrifice their own lives for them. ...and your brother told you early on he was sacrificing his life for them, and he would rather die than not. This is very selfish parenting, horrible to do to your own sons. To make your son feel he would rather die than cause you shame? All for one color? This isn't something they do for love for either one of you, it is love of themselves.

 

Every single thing you say your parents have done has been self-serving. It isn't about what is good, or right, or fair, or of God, it is about making themselves feel superior to someone else.

 

If you married white, and they decided to roll over and behave like a submissive wolf around their relatives with their heads hanging down or their bellies exposed..., that is their OWN choice as Sadgati said. What they need to do is stand firm and support you..fight back. You earn more respect standing with your head proudly up than you ever will lowering your head acting submissive and cowed.

 

You said, ">>>My mom said she loves his ex-girlfriend. That shes a very nice girl. That my mom feels sorry for her (not about not allowing her to marry my brother, but about her condition)."

 

You also said she wouldn't ALLOW your brother to marry her. The words of love ring hollow here. This isn't how you treat someone you love. This isn't how you treat someone who was part of your family for eight years. This isn't how you treat someone suffering from a disease. This is outrageous behavior.

 

She respected this girl, which you and Sadgati are saying is huge... This white girl was ill and offered you her guidance even though she accepted the fate she had been dealt by your nasty mom and your nasty brother..., and you dismissed it as too long and too emotional..and have excuses why you can't help or support her? This brings me great sorrow. She was very ill, but she didn't dismiss you. She must have been in pain, but she didn't turn her back on you...she took time.

 

She must be something quite special for your own mom to admit it to you after that long lists of hates your mom has toward the majority of the human race...... I am sorry, but the most important person in your mom's life is herself. You and your brother are NOT. What she does is calculated for her own benefit. I am beginning to wonder what you are doing to show you care about anyone but yourself?

 

You are too concerned about what is fair to the bullies, or the treatment of ones such as your brother and your parents who use each other or hurt other people; but you are not so concerned about what is fair to their victims. (aunt, brother's white gf) You don't do anything to help or protect their real victims.

 

If your mom wasn't so quick to condemn people, maybe she wouldn't have to worry so much about being condemned herself. She is completely lacking in forgiveness and compassion...(aunt, brother's white girlfriend) Your brother's white girlfriend is wounded and unable to fight any battles but for her own life right now. Where is the compassion? Who is willing to help her? Not anyone in your family...not one.

 

Like Sadgati said, if they hang their heads they are giving others approval to abuse them... they don't have to stand there and take it.

------------

I have spent awhile thinking about this. I would confront your brother in front of the brown girl too like Sadgati suggested. She has had some great ideas which have made some headway. It needs to happen. .., because it is the truth. There is no reason not to. He treated you and your girlfriend the same with issues he had against whites. It is fair...it is more than fair it is right.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Sparkling

[Monkeeman]

Hey everyone,

 

There has been some developements and i got myself in way more trouble...

 

I'm not in the best shape, but i can walk around and go out for a while. Anyway, J bought my parents a christmas present. She drove an hour to our house to drop it off. She rang the door bell and my mother answered. Its been over a year since my mother has seen J and didnt recognize her until i told her it was J. J tried to hand the gift bag to my mom but my mom stepped back. She said "we dont want" to J. My mother refused to take the present and told her "we dont celebrate christmas" (we really did though). Then my mom did something no one expected, she invited J to the guest room. I told my mom that J just wanted to drop off the present and be on her way. My mom then spoke to me in Hindi and siad 'if someone is at your doorstep, u invite them over, it doesnt matter if they are your enemy.' She insisted J stay and so she did.

 

I sat with J in the guest room and we waited. This was in the morning and my brother and father were still getting ready. My mom came to the guest room, dropped off some juice and assortments of sweets, nuts and left. J and me waited in the guest room for 30 minutes and no one showed up. When i confronted my mother and father in the kitchen, they said they have no intension of speaking to J. They said she is invited into the house, she can drink the juice and leave whenever she wants.

 

After informing J that my parents have no intention of speaking to them, she approached the door and was about to leave until my brother came from upstairs and said "please sit down, lets have a talk." J and my brother ® had a long talk. J was calm and collected the entire discussion and R tried to restrict himself from yelling. I wish i recorded their discussion, i'll try my best to recall from it.

 

J told him everything she was doing to make the transition easier for my parents to adjust to her.

-She wanted to make it easier for my parents by first learning the language and culture. She is reading books on the the hindu culture, has bought learning Hindi CDs and is registed in a Hindi classes to break the language gap.

-She reassured him that she is well versed in the delicate situation and understands where hes coming from. She undersands that she will have to commit to a lot of sacrifices.She also emphasized that she is not taking anything they are saying personally. She even caught my brother off guard when she asked him what positive actions are your parents doing for their son.

-my brother changed the topic by telling her a long metaphor and that slightly applied to the situation

-she warned him that this wont be the first time a mixed couple could enter the family, that other cousins or even the generation after us will have a mixed marriage. My brother responded that he doesnt care if others do it, but he doesnt want us to be the first. As the first will be the most critized and the parents will be segragated from the community.

-J was able to address every issue and concern my brother had, but then he finally went to the point that i still have trouble answering...

 

He gave the context (and this context is true)

-Since we have such a close relationship with our relatives we see and talk to them everyday ( i have over 24 relatives living in my block alone!) The status and respect my parents have been building for 55 years will be tarnished the moment everyone finds out about me and J are married. My mom's brothers and sisters will never look at her the same and every gathering she has with the relatives (yes we have get togethers practically every week) my parents would talk with their heads down. Every relative will indivudally come and ask my parents how they let their son marry a cuacasian girl. Constantly reminding them that they are a failures as parents. They will be used as escape goats if any of my younger cousins decide to have a mixed marriage. Its not like my parents have many friends outside their culture. Its the culture they have been raised in and live in today. My relatives wont talk down much to us but they will to our parents.

 

To give an example, my aunt A. Her two children got into troubles with the law frequently. Our relatives now all look down at their mother (aunt A). Everytime she comes to relative gatherings she has her head down, no one asks for her opinion on anything, she last to know anything, and she cries many of the times i've visited their home. The sad thing is, her 2 sons have stopped getting into trouble, finsihed thier highschools and are now in college. The picture will be similar to my parents when the relatives find out. My parents will be outkasted and there is no exaggeration in this.

 

J's answer to this was that parents should always put the child's happiness above their own. Its unfair for them to demand this. When the relatives find out she and I will do everything in our power to make their lives easier. I forgot what solutions she stated so i'm going to email her and ask her if i can paste what she wrote on this forum.

 

J's lower back has been hurting her for 2 weeks and she had trouble sitting down on for a long peroid of time. After speaking to my brother for 2 hrs, she had to stop the discussion because the pain was getting unbearable. She left while purposely leaving her present behind. Just before she exited my home, i whispered to her that i'd meet her in the car before she left.

 

Once she left. My family began screaming at me. They were furious why she came to this house ( i should have told them earlier, it was my fault). My mom noticed the gift bag was left behind and she demanded i return it back to her otherwize she will throw in the garbage. I told my parents that i wasnt going to stay for this, and its time i spent some time with J. Its been weeks since i've seen her once (and 4 months before that) and i'm going to see her now. My parents forbid it, my brother said to come back in 2 hrs, i told them i wasnt asking, i was telling. With that, i picked up the gift bag, put on the first coat i saw in the closet (turned out to be a women's coat) and walked outside. I finally spent a day with J and it was magical. We didnt do much, other than go to her home, meet her parents, open my chirstmas presents, and finally head back to my home 6 hrs later. When i returned, we had guests, once they left my parents havent spoken to me. This was yesterday. This is the first time in my life that i left the house without my parents permission. My brother hasnt done this either and yes its a huge deal to do this in our culture. Today my uncle is home and my parents and brother speak to me minimally. Once my uncle heads back to work tommorow, i know hell will break lose all over again...

 

 

Why do you keep believing everything your brother and parents tell you? How many lies, contradictions and falsified facts do they have to give you to know they are screwing you? They have screwed everyone. If this is a close family, screw it too. Close families don't screw you over or treat you like sh&&, enemies do.

 

Go get your brother

Edited January 1, 2010 by Monkeeman

[Shark]

YOU, your MOM, your dad, your BROTHER, your family are ALL responsibile for the continued abuse and mistreatment of your aunt, and your brother's "loved" white SICK OR DYING? girlfriend who had the misfortune in their eyes to be born white; who you said reached her arms out to you to try to help you even AFTER her abuse at their hands.

 

IS THIS FAIR!?

 

Your mom, dad, brother are ALL responsbile for the abuse and mistreatment to your girlfriend because she is white.

 

IS THIS FAIR?

 

Is that fair? Is this just? Is this right? Is this acceptable? Is this honorable? Is this kind? Is this loving? Is this following the word of God? Is this helping the fallen? Is this brave? Is this loving to deliberately hurt someone in a weaker state or lower on the status pole than you are? Is this fair to push someone off a cliff in a weakened state? Is this treating family or friends better than Caucasians do? IS THIS FAIR?

 

Should "IS THIS FAIR" even BE a question you should be asking about whether it is right to confront your brother in front of the brown girl, JUST AS HE DID TO YOU AND YOUR GIRLFRIEND, about his lies and abuse? Nobody asked you to make up a story, they said confront him with the truth of his own words. They won't carry weight if you confront him by himself or alone.

 

You clearly don't care if the abuse and mistreatment to a sick white girl is fair. You only care if it is fair to the BROWN girl, because SHE hadn't done anything wrong. WTF? Except for your girlfriend, the only person you sound concerned about is the brown girl...and... selfishly, YOU... just like your parents. You aren't even sure if you love your white girlfriend, not really.

 

It was suggested you challenge your brother in front of her, (like he did you) but instead of concerning yourself with their victims, your aunt, the sick white girl...your only concern is for the brown girl and how she is treated. Or you are concerned how the abusers, your parents and brother are treated. You show racism just as your family does.

 

You cared about yourself when it was you your brother was going to abuse and try to break when he came home from law school. He clearly has a history of abusing and breaking people in the past, you said he does!! ...like undoubtedly his white girlfrend...look at her!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You want to be a doctor yet YOU accept this abuse as ok because "it is done in your culture" and YOU stand by and watch it? If you don't do something to change this attitude of yours, and I am speaking about your attitude now not just your parents and your brother, or do something to prevent this abuse, or stand up and FIGHT IT BECAUSE IT IS NOT FAIR, OR DECENT HUMAN BEHAVIOR FOR ANY CULTURE, you don't deserve to be a doctor. Doctor's are SUPPOSED to help people NOT stand there and watch them be deliberately hurt or abused. You don't deserve to have a license to doctor.

 

Your culture is better? Your culture helps the fallen? Your culture doesn't walk away? Your culture treats people better than caucasians? Let me remind you, your brother's white girlfriend tried to help YOU even after she had been abused and mistreated by your brother and your parents, YES HELP YOU. You said she tried to help you so you could avoid the mistakes of your brother. You are turning your back on her and treating her like your family treats your own aunt, like she is the problem when the problem IS YOUR FAMILY ATTITUDES AND VALUES-You know, those people, your brother and parents and you who abuse human beings they SAID THEY LOVED.

 

Your girlfriend's parents treated you respectfully, even after YOUR family was abusive to their daughter. They haven't held it against all Indians.

 

A girl may be dying in part to how your brother treated her. Is THIS FAIR? Oh, but you can't be bothered to help her, a white girl...let her die, it isn't fair to the brown girl.

 

You are questioning people about what is fair to a brown girl, while you stand apart and let them treat a white girl and your aunt this way? IS THAT FAIR???

 

If you have the mistaken notion you are helping your brother or your family by allowing this, YOU ARE NOT.

 

The only persons you are trying to help are yourself and your girlfriend. To He** with the rest.......

Edited January 1, 2010 by Shark

[Sadgati]

Quote: My parents will be outkasted and there is no exaggeration in this.

 

I would tell my parents and especially my brother that it would be JUSTICE BEING SERVED, and serve them right... for the malicious, vile, CRUEL, ways you have watched them treat people over the years who have "fallen from their grace", like your aunt for the last ....?... years, and for the maliciousness they showed to your girlfriend because she is white, but more importantly AND FAR WORSE BECAUSE A LIFE WAS/IS HANGING IN THE BALANCE..... the malicious, cruel and despicable way your brother and your parents treated and turned their backs on his "loved" white girlfriend who was sick. A fall from grace would do them some good to learn humility and compassion...they would see how false it is Indians help the fallen wouldn't they? That is what I would say regarding this argument of theirs. It would serve them right...and payback time for what they have callously done to other people....It is justice.

 

I wouldn't show them any pity on this issue. If they are so troubled and scared by someone who would treat someone this way, they should not be doing it either.

 

Their other option is to stand proud and say look at the wonderful way we raised our sonS.?? We taught them God's word and to look at the good inside someone instead of superficial things such as the outside colour of their skin, OR what the person can give to us to build up our own ego just so others will envy us. We taught them inner goodness is more important then skin colour, money, their own status. We taught our son/s to treat people with respect, not as our own personal property. We taught our sons NOT to be selfish individuals. We showed our sons love and respect for the right to make their own choices in life instead of them being dictated by us, and the right to be THEIR OWN MEN........

 

Definition of malicious:

Harbouring or resulting from malice, ill will, enmity, spiteful

 

Maliciousness:

hostile, malevolent, hateful, harmful, treacherous, invidious

 

Invidious:

expressing, prompted by or provoking envy or ill will

 

CRUEL:

1.Disposed to inflict suffering, pain etc., onto others.

2. causing suffering distress

3. pitiless, inhuman, merciless, ruthless

 

All of these words AND MORE describe your parents and your brother in their treatment of your aunt, your girlfriend, and ESPECIALLY, your brother's white girlfriend who is very ill. They are without mercy. They are RUTHLESS in their struggle for supremacy, they do NOT help the fallen unless it increases their own status, they show no heart. They have caused suffering and pain to your aunt for years. And especially for the inhumane way they treated your brother's ill white gf, at a time it would be crucial for her to be as stress free as much as possible. They sent or are sending her to either her death alone or leaving her alone while she fights for her life without their support or their LOVE. (skepticism here about the love, they don't seeem to know the true meaning of the word) They are expressing envy, greed, ill will, causing suffering and distress, hostility, hatefulness, spitefulness, and are being more than just harmful,..... do you see what they are doing?

 

I would tell my family I am ashamed of them, I don't respect them, and if they continue this inhumane (having no compassion for others) treatment of other people and don't do something to stop it, you will NEVER have any respect for them.

 

When you have to step on, trod on, belittle, demean, criticize, put down another person, culture, race or religion in order to build yourself up just to make yourself feel superiour or appear better than or more important than another....who is really the inferiour person? In my book, the inferiour persons are your parents and your brother.

 

...and yes, you need to do this to your brother and STOP WORRYING ABOUT WHAT IS FAIR TO SOMEONE LIKE THE BROWN GIRL who is in a position to take care of herself. CONFRONT YOUR BROTHER IN FRONT OF HER AND TELL HIM SOME TRUTHS!!!!

 

Honestly, I don't understand why you only care about what is fair to the brown girl either. Your parents and brother were horrible to you, to your aunt..and undoubtedly others just like her over the years... to your gf, to your brother's white gf.....THEY ARE NOT, NOT NOT BEING HORRIBLE, CRUEL, MEAN OR VISCIOUS TO THE BROWN GIRL.....THEY ARE BEING VISCIOUS TOWARD THE OTHERS...this brown girl does NOT need your protection....

 

...and did you hear yourself brag about her? She is HEAD TEACHER OF THE MATH DEPARTMENT......you sound just like your parents and your brother...... SO WHAT??????????????????????????????????? That had nothing to do with this issue or their racism or how they treat her like a queen and your gf like garbage...and your aunt like garbage...and your brother's white girlfriend like garbage. STOP ACTING SO SUPERFICIAL. I am not impressed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She and her family BOUGHT YOUR BROTHER JUST LIKE YOUR FAMILY BOUGHT HER....... That IS NOT worthy of respect.

 

....and all you can think about is if it is fair to this brown girl and how to protect her or her feelings? How do you rationalize this inside your head? What is fair for your aunt, gf, bro's white SICK gf?.........?? think about it...the brown girl doesn't need your help or your defense, or your protection...THE REST OF THEM DO!!!

 

...the brown girl had an EASY WAY INTO YOUR FAMILY BECAUSE SHE IS BROWN........THIS ISN'T RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! SHE DIDN'T EARN HER WAY IN, SHE BOUGHT HER WAY IN AND HER COLOUR BOUGHT HER WAY IN. Protect and defend someone who needs it...THAT would be the fair thing to do. You KNOW, YOU KNOW....Your brother's white girlfriend EARNED EVERY SINGLE OUNCE OF RESPECT SHE GOT...because she was white and had a disadvantage. They treat your bro's brown girl like a QUEEN......and they barely know her....

 

...does she live far from you?

 

BTW, why do your mom and dad always send your brother in to do their dirty work for them? Why isn't your dad man enough to do it? About the only thing you say your dad says is you marry the family...which isn't true about Indians, they sell them to a family......., but that is all you have said your dad says. If your parents have something to say, then they should stand by it and be the ones to say it instead of telling someone else what they should say for them. Your mom's broken English is an excuse to hide behind. You said your dad speaks English. Even my parents don't send my brother off as their verbal errand boy.

 

Choose to protect and defend those who need it. The chances are GREAT that this brown girl will be one more in the family who treats other browns maliciously when they fall. She will be your mom's slave to do as she bids.......she will stand with your brother against you.........Do you really want another one like this in your family to add to your suffering? I would make this FALSE relationship as disruptive as I could and do so telling the truth. I would make it as hard as possible for your brother. It would be fair and it would be honest...they are not being truthful or honest...they lie to you and you keep catching them.

 

Your said your brother's white girlfriend stood there to help you even though she loved your brother so much. This tells me a lot about her character. She was trying to do the right thing and help you even at her own expense. It shows she loved you. It shows me she had courage. It shows your family had good reasons to love her....she genuinely cared about you. Come on...is ALL OF THIS treatment they have given her....is this fair to her?

 

I would even start it off next time she came over and say something like, "A few days ago, my brother challenged my white girlfriend about why she can't marry me because my parents are racist...and so is my brother......

 

SO, now it is my turn to confront him about some lies he has told to you, and some truths about our family he isn't telling you and is hiding from you.......and do this in front of you exactly like he did my white girlfriend trying to shame and humilate her because she is WHITE. He was malicious to her because she is white.

 

and I would immediately tell her before your brother could react and shout you down what he said about still loving his white girfriend but he has to marry a brown girl because my parents ordered him to because they don't want to be shamed in the family by a white girl. I would make sure to tell him how he even told the white girl he always love HER and NOT YOU (brown girl) even though he has been going out with her(brown) he was telling his white gf he loved her ONLY. I would tell her he told this white girl he would always love her and how he left her because she is white My brother is a racist, my brother was telling his white girlfriend she would always be the one he loved but he can't marry her because our family is racist........ I would tell her your brother chose brown ONLY because your parents have him believing he would rather die than shame them...

 

I would tell them both how you are telling the truth, and how your parents are EXTREMELY racist. I would add that your family is very racist and they chose you because you are brown and wanted to increase their own status, because they said so. If he tries to shout you down I would say NO, I AM TELLING THE TRUTH, AND WHAT YOU DID TO MY GIRLFRIEND WAS ENTIRELY BASED ON RACISM.... would tell her what I witness them doing to my aunt, and because of this they don't want someone doing it back to them.

If your brother says one word.......tell him you and your girlfriend listened to him respectfully even though he wasn't respectful. His argument was for racism ONLY because of your parents and being afraid. It is time someone in the family told her the truth about what he has done...and quote a scripture.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Sadgati

[Reactant]

Hey everyone,

 

i'm sorry for the late response. I'm leaving for the airport in 6 hrs from now. The last few days have been very hectic from going to doctors offices, having more arguments with parents, packing up to leave the country and finding time to see J. I have a long flight and a boat to catch and will reach my home on sunday 10pm. i will then start to reply. atleast at school i wont have my parents making my day more exhausting. I'm very very very sorry for not replying on a timely basis. Thanks again for being there. I've asked my friends for advice in the past and none of them were as through as every member here, i really want to give u guys a hug!

 

Thank u thank u.

[Sadgati]

So, after all of this, and all of our time and research because you asked us for scriptures and other things.....You didn't take heed for what the scriptures told you was the right thing to do? You are running out on the white girl and your aunt? You didn't confront your brother.....? You didn't protect or defend your aunt? You left a white girl to die who was abused by your family...and YOU. Plus, you didn't bother responding when you said you would...after all the time and effort we put into this? You were even going to paste more of what your gf said. You didn't like what we had to say....IT WAS THE TRUTH!! You ran away, just like your brother...

 

You ran away.....you turned your back...just like your brother and your parents, making excuses for why you don't have time or why you can't. You see it in your parents and your brother, excuses, lies, conflicting stories, and we can too. Now I see your excuses in you too for why you are going to allow them to continue their abuse. I am very disappointed and ashamed of you. You left ALL OF YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS to continue spewing out their poison. Now your aunt will be continued to be abused because you didn't care. Now your brother's white girlfriend will die alone, and you don't care.

 

You didn't like what we had to say about how VERY important it was to confront your brother in front of the brown girl, even though the majority, or all of us, who felt the same way.....so you ran off.

 

Remember KARMA?? You and your family will find out the hard way. You WILL pay a price for this one way or another whether in this life or the next. I said your brother behaved as a coward, your parents behaved as cowards, now I see it runs in the family. The only person important to you is YOU..and I thought you were different. I wasted my time on you and so did everyone else on this forum. If you can't stand up for others who are or have been abused and mistreated by your own family, or treated maliciously, then you deserve what you get...Remember KARMA?? ...in this life or the after life. YOU CHOSE the bad way. NOTE: KARMA ALSO REFERS TO YOUR ACTIONS AS POISON. You and your family are not sowing goodness. You are sowing evil, and you will reap evil. God will get you if nobody in this life does.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

 

"Karma is not fate, for humans act with free will creating their own destiny.

 

According to the Vedas, if we sow goodness, we will reap goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determines our future.

 

 

But just as poison affects us if taken unknowingly, suffering caused unintentionally will also give appropriate karmic effect. We are in position to do something about our destiny by doing the right thing at the right time.

 

"This life is likened to a field (Khet) in which our Karma is the seed. We harvest exactly what we sow. No less, no more."

 

Intentionally or unintentionally, you will be held responsible...and it shows what you did to be poisonous. But, in your situation...YOU CHOSE TO RUN OFF AND LEAVE THEM THIS WAY. You allowed and enabled your parents and your brother to be CRUEL AND MALICIOUS...AND POISON THEM...and that makes you cruel and malicious too.

 

You owe this to your aunt and the white girl to stand up to your parents and brother for them... , it is the right thing to do and you know it. You NEED TO CONFRONT YOUR PARENTS AND BROTHER ABOUT YOUR AUNT....YOU NEED TO CONFRONT YOUR BROTHER IN FRONT OF HIS BROWN GF ABOUT WHAT HE DID TO HIS WHITE GF AND WHAT HE SAID TO HER, HE LIED TO THE INDIAN GIRL AND SHE DESERVES TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT KIND OF A FAMILY SHE IS ABOUT TO MARRY INTO. IT WOULD BE HONOURABLE AND JUST. THEY WANT HER IN THE FAMILY, LET HER KNOW WHAT YOUR FAMILY IS CAPABLE OF, AND HOW THEY REALLY TREAT PEOPLE THEY CLAIM TO LOVE.......YOU HAVE A WHITE GIRL DYING...YOU RAN AWAY FROM AND DIDN'T HELP.........THIS ISN'T FUNNY. IT WAS EVIL to treat the white girl this way....... EVIL.

 

You don't seem to understand.., for each day you leave them like this and you don't choose to help, you leave them with one more day to needlessly suffer....suffer from your mom, dad and brother's abuse. Why would you leave them condemned like that? You need to do something NOW...not delay it. It isn't as if there is time to spare, especially with the white girl. How could you go off and leave them like this? Had you done something, you would have said...but, you avoided it and left. Days lead to weeks, weeks turn into more months, and months turn into years...for them to be abused and left to suffer. The white girl may not have any time left, and you deserted her. You APPROVED of your brother's choice, you approved of the way your parents treat your aunt..you approved of how your brother and your parents treated the white girl, and you said so to your brother......even though it is very evil to do... This is NOT fair. It is evil. Congratulate your mom, dad and your brother for me. They won. They beat you.

 

The point of confronting your brother in front of the brown girl was so he would be caught off guard, and couldn't fabricate, lie and make up any excuses ahead of time. You HAVE to do it before you go so more time doesn't pass.

 

How would you like knowing someone could help you but instead they stalled around and chose to make you suffer one more day, and another and another?..... or in fact, never helped you until it was too late and you die? You are so guilty of helping aid in the continuation their abuse and torture. You have only excuses....and it is evil to do this.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Sadgati

[Sparkling]

Hey everyone,

 

i'm sorry for the late response. I'm leaving for the airport in 6 hrs from now. The last few days have been very hectic from going to doctors offices, having more arguments with parents, packing up to leave the country and finding time to see J. I have a long flight and a boat to catch and will reach my home on sunday 10pm. i will then start to reply. atleast at school i wont have my parents making my day more exhausting. I'm very very very sorry for not replying on a timely basis. Thanks again for being there. I've asked my friends for advice in the past and none of them were as through as every member here, i really want to give u guys a hug!

 

Thank u thank u.

 

You did walk away with excuses on your lips. That is my view as well.

 

One of your excuses for not doing anything was your brother doesn't want your help. You keep ignoring the true reasons why he tells you that. Your brother made a bargain with the devil, and his soul is at stake. He was forced and pressured into making that decision the same way they are doing to you., So, now he intends to stick by his bargain with the devil and evil, (you know this wasn't from God) and force you into making the same choice he did. He is going to work you over for the next eight years until you turn your back on the white girl, ONLY FOR YOUR PARENTS PRIDE.

 

You forget and ignore why your brother made that bargain with the devil in the first place....FOR YOUR PARENTS...it was not so much for himself because he told his white gf he still loved HER. It was because of your parents. You ignore completely his actual cry for help. He wants his white girlfriend, but he doesn't want to be the FIRST. He has reached the depths of he** because he believes he would prefer to die than have a white girl shame his parents. Of course that is their warped version of it. The white girl isn't shaming anyone at all, THEY ARE. If you don't realize how very sick this is, and how very sick this makes him now...what will it take?

 

He NEEDS your help to change things so he doesn't HAVE TO SACRIFICE HIMSELF for your selfish, prideful, cruel parents. The only way to get through to him or get him to hear you is to confront him in front of the brown girl about his lies, and tell the truth so she hears it....so he can't hide behind them. Evil lurks in the darkness.....and you are keeping her in the dark and helping your brother and parents do cruel evil things to other people when you keep it from her...or from anyone. She will see when she enters the family, but then it will be TOO LATE TO HELP YOUR BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I am in complete agreement with Sadgati. Each day you stall or turn your back and walk away makes one more day your aunt or the white girl has to suffer. Do you believe this brown girl won't be caught up in your personal family arguments in the near future? So, TELL HER WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO PEOPLE IN FRONT OF YOUR BROTHER LIKE HE DID YOU AND YOUR GF. SHE NEEDS TO KNOW. SHE DESERVES TO HEAR BOTH SIDES BEFORE YOUR BROTHER WARPS HER MIND. SHE DESERVES TO KNOW YOUR BROTHER DECLARED LOVE ALWAYS FOR HIS WHITE GF BEFORE SHE ENDS UP MARRYING HIM. HOW CAN YOU DO THIS TO HER, IT IS DISHONEST. Why would you HELP YOUR BROTHER IN HIS DECEPTION AND APPROVE OF IT? You didn't ask for your brother's help...but look what he does to you...and look at the filth he feeds your mind with. FILL HIS MIND WITH TRUTH OF HIS ACTIONS AND HIS LIES!!!!! HELP HIM! NOW! IN FRONT OF THE BROWN GIRL! BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. IT IS YOUR DUTY BECAUSE YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN.

 

You and your brother should want to be the catalyst for change so this kind of thing doesn't shame anyone ever again. So nobody ever has to endure this again. So no white girl had to be sacrificed at the altar for a brown girl he didn't love. If you walked away and didn't confront your brother, you will have shamed yourself. You have given your approval to condemn his life he could have had before God, and instead he will be among demons. It was your choice.

 

Do you really believe a brown girl would want to marry him knowing your brother was telling you and your parents the reason he was marrying her and the thought of it was so bad that he used the words to you...HE SACRIFICED HIMSELF TO DO THIS Think about it........he said he was sacrificing himself MARRYING BROWN for your parents......that is how hard this decision has been for him. HE IS SACRIFICING HIMSELF...his own words Reactant. Why would you help him do this? Why?

 

I wonder how his prospective bride would feel to know he told you and his parents that a life with her was his sacrifice to your parents? Doesn't she have the right to know he told you this himself? Listen to what he said, sacrifice himself.......don't walk away.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Sparkling

[Reactant]

Hey everyone,

 

My new place near school still doesnt have internet, so right now i'm at the school's computer lab. I'm sorry for posting late in the day. I wanted to get my lectures done before starting this because once i get my emotions are involved its hard to focus back on work.

 

Reading over my posts it sounds like i come on here and complain what my family has said but not really explaining what i said in response to them. If i had just mentioned what my responses were it would give grounds for people to critique and possibly make the argument more refined for next time.

 

 

"He is abusive, and to teach this hatred and contempt for all the people within one race to someone is another form of abuse."

>>>You know whats disgusting? He said 'now if u needed her for immegration purposes, thats a different story because people will think he only married the white girl because he needed to immegrate to the country, that is fine, but your already a canadian citizen. <<<<so what that means is, its okay to marry someone to use them as an object for self gain but its worse to marry someone for love. That really really sickened me when he said that.

 

 

". So, who is doing his thinking for him? He is a proud sheep and follower of the racism crowd. It is too bad they don't listen to God."

>>>I love what u said, cuz i said a similar line.

 

 

".............. oh my God. He told her he was still in love with her and NOT the Indian girl ONLY because she was white, ...... AND THEN HE LEFT THAT POOR WHITE GIRL TO to go through this surgery alone while he takes up with a brown girl he doesn't love and arranges a ring ceremony?"

>>>Pretty much it, but there was some time delay, this didnt happen in one week or something.

 

 

"Does your brother know about the letters?"

>>>My parents havent told him. According to my mom she got sent an inch full of letters from R's ( my brother's ex girlfriend)'s mom. I think in the letters is how R's mom feels about the situation and she is very upset by it. My mom said they havent read much of it. I think its beacuse they are choosing not to read much of it because it critisms about my brother and the stuff he pulled.

 

My mom has warned me not to get 'too close' to J because (paraphrase) 'when u break up with her, later on when u finally get married to a nice indian girl, she'll come to your marriage and tell everyone that u and her were once together and try to ruin your marriage' <<<Clearly my mom think J is the lowest form of human life.

 

 

"Not only that they ridicule the letters as being too much to bother reading? The girl is dying damn it!"

Yup. I know my parents are busy but they can make time to read it. Its not positive information, i know its negative info.

 

 

"NOTICE YOUR BROTHER SAID HE IS AFRAID..CALL HIM ON IT!!!HE MADE THIS CHOICE BECAUSE HE IS SCARED!!!!!!!!!! We keep trying to tell you what a coward he is, now he admits it and you see it is true. Call him a coward. He left a girl who loved him dearly and who he loved because he was scared. He ran...yes, RAN because he was scared and he left her to die alone."

>>>>I havent called him a coward before. Many people in the forum are calling him a coward. I guess its a matter of repetition to get a point through or this quote demonstrated it well, i dont know but it is becoming very clear that he is a coward. i will call him out on this and call him what he is. Thank u.

 

"Why won't your family since they know it is wrong?"

>>>Come to think of it, i dont know if THEY think it is truely wrong. I mean they know its not what God would want. At the same time they are trying to convince me (and possibly themselves) that many bad things will happen if the marriage was to occur.

 

"For the first time since reading this forum I think there are some Indians, your parents and brother, who do not deserve the privilege of being allowed into a western society."

>>>I know this sounds defensive but remember your only hearing one side of the story. Its hard to judge someones character just by one view. Perhaps there are convenient detials i'm purposly not disclosing.

 

"----TALK about the white girl...she has earned your respect and his trust....he doesn't want you to talk about "R" because he isn't proud of how he treated her. Also, since he still loves her, he would be comparing whoever he had to marry unfavorably. So any good feelings you have about her talk about. he gets into your face to say mean things about your girlfriend. Get into his face and say mean things about his. After all, his brown girlfriend IS after his money, and SHE makes herself look greedy marrying for money. You know how they don't want a greedy white girl in the family. So argue against her. I believe most of us agree about this.

"

I have done that to a degree. but part of me feels its too dirty. Exposing his life and dirty deeds to my parents to make a point makes me feel dirty inside. At one point i used to wish his ex became his wife, but over time (this is before they broke up) i wished either my brother would change or she break up with him. Overtime i felt my brother wasnt good enough for her as he was very verbually abusive to her. Part of me felt it was a mixed blessing in disguise, that she will eventualyl move on and see greener pastures. But she didnt, she missed him and told me she will never love anyone else again...

 

"I have no doubts this is fair to challenge the brown girl's integrity and her motives for being in your brown family. "

>>>You brought up some very good reasons, and since no one is talking about his ex, the crimes that have been committed, its time i brought it up. Just one note though, i see the way the brown girl looks at my brother, she has a love face. I think she genuinely loves my brother. I just wanted to make that clear everyone here.

 

"Your parents are still doing arranged marriages. They selected the social status, color and money for your son. That is arranged marriage for money and profit. They do stone people with their harsh words, or cast them out of the family. They say they aren't doing castes? Well, why choose the lighter brown color then? Why choose someone who can give them more money? If they aren't choosing castes why not select from a poorer girl who has a good heart? They ARE following the caste system. They are still giving ultimatums who you can marry. You don't have real free will or free choice."

Sigh. Why didnt i get this through my head earlier. Your right. This is an arranged marriage, now i see why everyone in the forum has been calling it that. This is a caste system, different system but still a caste system.

[Sadgati]

e

>>>You know whats disgusting? He said 'now if u needed her for immegration purposes, thats a different story because people will think he only married the white girl because he needed to immegrate to the country, that is fine, but your already a canadian citizen. <<<<so what that means is, its okay to marry someone to use them as an object for self gain but its worse to marry someone for love. That really really sickened me when he said that.

 

So, it sickened you. Did you tell him so? Is this your bro you are speaking about? Did you point out to them that Indians (him as well for even thinking that way) are NOT GOOD AND NICE PEOPLE, THEY JUST CONTINUE TO USE AND ABUSE PEOPLE? It is another sign of racism as well. They can marry a white person to USE them. Indians USING white people are acceptable. Doesn't that make your parents and brother beneath a white caucasian because they USE them? It isn't the caucasians using them. Each time they tell you things like this you need to say more and more about how that is another reason you would never want to marry an Indian because they use and abuse people. The more negative things they say to you, the more you can use them against them. Each abusive thing they say, you can say back......say seee how Indians are. I don't want to live my life like that, I am ashamed of you for even thinking that way. I am not proud of you!! To people like your brother his pride and ego is everything...just like your parents so you HAVE to hit them in their pride and make them look ridiculous. Tell them do they realize how stupid and mean they sound when they say things like that...tell them anything negative, because it is the truth. They just admitted they use people or they can because they are white if their intentions are to use them. This is another example of GREEDY INDIANS.. a SIN. Also keep quoting those scriptures about greed, pride, sin, using people being against God, and tell them you want to follow God's teachings not the sick teachings of man.

 

>>>>>>My parents havent told him. According to my mom she got sent an inch full of letters from R's ( my brother's ex girlfriend)'s mom. I think in the letters is how R's mom feels about the situation and she is very upset by it. My mom said they havent read much of it. I think its beacuse they are choosing not to read much of it because it critisms about my brother and the stuff he pulled.

 

Anything your parents keep from your brother TELL HIM. They are hiding it to keep him under their thumb...so tell him what they are hiding. Why do you let your parents get away with being so sneaky? When you tell your brother make it so he is mad at your parents for hiding it from him. Or make him jealous because they told you but didn't tell him...anything to hit him in his pride, OR that will cause him to view your parents as they really are inside. NASTY! You can tell him they were afraid they would lose control of their puppet strings on him if they told him. Remember, hit him in his Pride and ego, or make him jealous of your relationship with your parents. Why? Because you need to break up that sick game they play on you where he gets to be martyr as opposed to you the bad son.

 

I know it isn't what you would choose. But you and I are in a position where parents and relatives do all of these evil things and we have to stop it because it is the right thing to do. Sometimes in a battle you have to play the cards you are dealt.

 

>>>My mom has warned me not to get 'too close' to J because (paraphrase) 'when u break up with her, later on when u finally get married to a nice indian girl, she'll come to your marriage and tell everyone that u and her were once together and try to ruin your marriage' <<<Clearly my mom think J is the lowest form of human life.

 

Again, when your mom does that, challenge her back. You just seem to listen, why don't you challenge her back??? Tell her you don't think Indian girls are that nice, just look how your mom is treating your brother and sacrificing him deliberately. Look how Indian women treat other Indian women like your aunt and tell her you don't want a mean Indian girl...You can also exaggerate it just like they do if you have to.. Anything it takes....

 

>>>. I know my parents are busy but they can make time to read it. Its not positive information, i know its negative info..

So, why are they hiding them from you and your brother? You also said you hadn't read them either. Why not?

 

You didn't mention why you didn't challenge your family or protect your aunt from their abuse?

 

>>>>I havent called him a coward before. Many people in the forum are calling him a coward. I guess its a matter of repetition to get a point through or this quote demonstrated it well, i dont know but it is becoming very clear that he is a coward. i will call him out on this and call him what he is. Thank u..

 

FINALLYYYYYYYYYY Your family is so into mud slinging and all they care about is how they look to people, so you have to challenge them this way even if you don't want to or they won't listen to you. You HAVE to shame them back you HAVE TO. It is a sad thing that you can see your family wanting to be up at the top of the status list, when what is really important is being lost to them. The reasons I keep saying hit them in their pride is because PRIDE, EGO, STATUS, are the ONLY reasons they have said that matter to them. Your brother doesn't matter, you don't matter...just their pride. Their sons are worthless to them if they don't give them their pride. Pride is their weak point, so hit them in their pride.

 

 

>>>>>>Come to think of it, i dont know if THEY think it is truely wrong. I mean they know its not what God would want. At the same time they are trying to convince me (and possibly themselves) that many bad things will happen if the marriage was to occur.

 

And bad things occur in Indian marriages too...so what? Life isn't perfect. Your parents argue I am sure... You know your brother is a jerk, so he will have some problems. Again...show problems in your own family and how they mistreat each other. Don't let them have a free pass on anything they say. Challenge it!

 

>>>I know this sounds defensive but remember your only hearing one side of the story. Its hard to judge someones character just by one view. Perhaps there are convenient detials i'm purposly not disclosing.

 

Perhaps, but is that really the reason? Are there are convenient details you are purposely not disclosing?

 

 

>>>I have done that to a degree. but part of me feels its too dirty. Exposing his life and dirty deeds to my parents to make a point makes me feel dirty inside. At one point i used to wish his ex became his wife, but over time (this is before they broke up) i wished either my brother would change or she break up with him. Overtime i felt my brother wasnt good enough for her as he was very verbually abusive to her. Part of me felt it was a mixed blessing in disguise, that she will eventualyl move on and see greener pastures. But she didnt, she missed him and told me she will never love anyone else again....

 

You don't seem to realize what your parents are doing is dirty. Nothing they are doing is fair. They are going to hound you until you give into them... like your brother did. You said your brother went out with this other girl eight years and loved her still.... But, he was a coward and gave it up. We want you to expose him in front of his brown girlfriend where it will do some good. You don't have much of a choice. Doesn't she have the right to know? You have to do this soon, it will be harder the longer you wait. You can't wait until it is up to the time of the engagement ceremony. You need to get them together and challenge your brother.

 

>>>You brought up some very good reasons, and since no one is talking about his ex, the crimes that have been committed, its time i brought it up. Just one note though, i see the way the brown girl looks at my brother, she has a love face. I think she genuinely loves my brother. I just wanted to make that clear everyone here.

 

Does the brown girl live far from your parents? It is still early that they have been going together, only a few months. This is more an infatuation stage for her. I notice you do realize your brother doesn't love her back or give her lovey looks back. I would be willing to bet when your brother was with the white girlfriend, he did have love looks for his white gf AND talked about her all of the time like she was a queen.

 

The brown girl doesn't even begin to know your brother well enough to know if she loves him. He is only showing her one side of himself now. You have said how verbally abusive he can get to everyone and how he knows how to break people.

 

She doesn't even know your real brother.....AT ALL, and doesn't she have the right to know his real self? If you wait longer there will be more risk involved.

 

YOU HAVE TO DO THIS NOW!!!!! Through a cam, through a three way talk where she is there...you HAVE TO FIGURE OUT A WAY. Emails I am afraid won't work because YOU HAVE TO CATCH HIM OFF GUARD before he can make up excuses, and in emails he can argue behind your back how you lie or lie his way out of it. You can't wait until it is almost to the engagement time. There is a lot more to lose by then. You need to do this while the relationship is just beginning. He was saying to his white girlfriend he loves her still. He said to all of you, your parents and you that he would have to sacrifice himself to marry a brown girl. Your brother said it to you himself, so you know the white girl didn't lie. He said HE WOULD RATHER DIE THAN SHAME HIS PARENTS SO HE IS SACRIFICING HIMSELF TO MARRY A BROWN GIRL HE DIDN'T LOVE, and he loves a white girl. Say those words in front of both of them and do it quickly. If he yells, say you are telling the truth as he told it to you himself in front of your own parents. You can also point out he set the example for you when he said his feelings in front of your white girlfriend. You only did what he did first.

 

>>>Sigh. Why didnt i get this through my head earlier. Your right. This is an arranged marriage, now i see why everyone in the forum has been calling it that. This is a caste system, different system but still a caste system.

 

Do you really think your brother had a choice to marry this girl? A real choice? He has said to you so many times this is his self sacrifice to your parents...so many times. He tells you that you need to have a self sacrifice too LIKE HE DID, and give up your white girlfriend.

 

I think you are dirty if you let your parents and brother get away with this, not the other way around.

 

So, say it to her in front of your brother and to the brown girl..."HE(bros name) keeps telling Mom and Dad and I, (put them all in there because your parents heard him too) has told all of us that he is going to have to self-sacrifice himself for our parents to marry you, a brown girl he told us he doesn't love because our parents have pressured him and convinced him he would shame them and they would lose social status in front of our relatives for marrying the white girl he really loves, and has continued love for the past eight years

 

... because our parents are racist and scared the relatives will look down on them if he marries the girl he loves, and I believe you have the right to know

 

----he isn't the nice guy you think he is. He has been telling another girl 'R' she was the one he would always love even as he has been seeing you."

 

---Prepare to be yelled at, but hold your ground and just say it is the truth before God. Tell them you won't lie for them, what they are doing is wrong and selfish to everyone and even cruel as well to the brown girl. Tell them but what you are saying is the truth before God, and say how your bro said it repeatedly many times to you in front of your own parents.

 

----Tell her how your bro used it against you telling you how you also needed to self sacrifice yourself and your white girlfriend for your parents

 

...and your brother did say, HE WOULD RATHER DIE THAN SHAME HIS PARENTS SO HE IS GOING TO SELF-SACRIFICE HIMSELF TO MARRY A BROWN GIRL HE DIDN'T LOVE, and he loves a white girl.

 

---If your bro wasn't giving up something he loved. 'R'..how would he be sacrificing himself or martyring himself using the term self sacrifice to you as an argument so many times? He wouldn't be able to say sacrifice at all.

 

Oh, I thought of one more thing. If they try to yell you down or shame you...tell them if they don't stop lying you have some more abusive things he does to women you can tell her about, and how she has the right to know what he did....... shock him a little. If he says go ahead and tell, TELL... You were saying he did very abusive things sometimes and broke people so you probably have some things he wouldn't want told.

 

How is the white girl and how is your aunt? Is there anyone caring what happens to them? Another day has gone another day of suffering.

 

EDIT: I was thinking if this was my brother he would be trying to make up stuff that isn't true to make himself look better in front of a girl. when you challenge your brother in front of the brown girl...If your brother should try to say he has changed his mind now and does love the brown....you will KNOW this is a lie because it was only a few days ago even after his engagement that he was still saying to you that you had to sacrifice yourself like he did....so you know he doesn't love the brown. So, make sure and tell him he is lying because he just told you that.

Edited January 6, 2010 by Sadgati

[Sparkling]

Reactant,

 

So, what are your intentions now while you are back at school? How long will you wait to take any action on the things you say you intend to do? You don't have time to wait, the white girl and your aunt need help NOW.

 

Do you plan on turning your back on this and walking away?... from your abused aunt?... from your brother's white girlfriend in her coma?? from challenging your brother in front of 'THE' brown girl? until the semester is over? Or will they just have to wait until you can find some time and the aunt and white girl will just have to suffer awhile longer?...or die?

 

I hesitate to call your brother's brown girl, 'his girlfriend' under the circumstances as she is not realistically his real girlfriend. She is nothing more than his convenient PROP HE BOUGHT for the act and show he is putting on.

 

Frankly, the brown girl's "love face" doesn't concern me....the white girl in the coma does. Her needs are far greater, so I don't understand why you ignore "R" and her feelings YET, so much more of your concern is always shown and directed for a brown girl or her love face? Somehow this seems very shallow of you to me.

 

Is there some racisim in you as well that you show so much more compassion for a love face on a healthy BROWN girl who has a FREE pass into your family.....than that of a white girl who earned her respect who is ill or dying?,... yet you told us you didn't even read the letter 'R', the WHITE girl sent you before she went into a coma ...even though you also told us her intent was to help you...and you didn't read it? This doesn't bother you or your conscience, but a love face on a brown girl does? I am sure the white girl also had a love face FOR EIGHT YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why doesn't she matter to you?

 

You feel guilty or dirty over a BROWN love face, but you don't feel guilty or dirty for how you or your family is treating a sick WHITE girl? You say your family loves this white girl? But LOOK HOW YOU ALL TREAT HER....IT IS DISGUSTINGLY SICK AND HEARTLESS. You said your brother was abusive to her.....what is it you think YOU AND YOUR PARENTS ARE DOING TO HER NOW????????????????????

 

Did you show as much care and concern for the white girl's love face as you do the brown girl? So far, I don't see any real sign you do....you only seem to be protective toward the color brown. You have stayed obstinately stubborn toward our efforts to get you to challenge your brother or do anything to help the white girl or protect her from the dirty, malicious stunts your parents and brothers have pulled on her. Your only concern seems to lie with making sure the brown girl is protected ...ehhh?...she isn't being attacked or abused by anyone in your family...she doesn't need protecting... INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE BEING ATTACKED AND ABUSED BY YOUR FAMILY, and their lives are at stake here. You know, ...your aunt and the white girl in the coma??... remember them?? THEY need your support and protection NOT a queen bee brown girl. This brown girl didn't have to pay any dues to enter your family. She didn't have to earn their trust, or earn their respect...she has a free pass because of her colour.

 

You said the white girl earned their love...EARNED IT. What is fair? ...to you it sounds like the brown girl's love face is the only important thing to you... , or 'brown' is all that matters to your conscience.

 

Your parents even told you they would let your brother marry "R" now....Like Sadgati I think it was said, "HOW HUGE IS THAT? " To even say those words, albeit knowing they have your brother trapped in his steel cage now with a brown girl is huge. "R" EARNED their respect and "love" or they would never have said that in front of you and your brother...PERIOD.

 

Why would defending anyone make you feel dirty when you are witnessing the abuse of the white girl and your aunt... in front of your own face? The only dirty thing about it is if you ignore it and let them continue to do it. You WILL be dirty if you ignore it as you are contributing to it and allowing it.

 

>>>You know whats disgusting? He said 'now if u needed her for immegration purposes, thats a different story because people will think he only married the white girl because he needed to immegrate to the country, that is fine, but your already a canadian citizen. <<<<so what that means is, its okay to marry someone to use them as an object for self gain but its worse to marry someone for love. That really really sickened me when he said that. .

 

I have the same impression as Sadgati. You say you LISTEN...AND YOU FEEL SICKENED...but, all I hear from you is you listen and don't challenge them while you have this golden opportunity to. When they say things such as this, jump in and tell them how you are ashamed of their values or morals and God would be too. Also, don't wait for them to say it again...bring it up over and over again how shallow they are for saying these things, and quote them. You can see by his statement how they PLAY WITH PEOPLE'S LIVES FOR GREED.....GREEDY-SELFISH -REASONS!! People are NOT TOYS OR OBJECTS TO BE USED OR MANIPULATED FOR SELFISH REASONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Do you respect your mother? Watching how she is acting do you respect this behavior of hers?

 

Have you ever listened to why someone joined a gang originally? Most often they say they were alone and SCARED on the streets so they joined for PROTECTION. Sometimes they were forced or bullied into it. Then you hear them say they HAD to beat up on someone, (in a gang bullies of course, they are SCARED on their own without the PROTECTION) even if they jumped them from behind or shot them dead on the streets in a drive by shooting to teach them to respect them?

 

Do you see what is happening? They are scared..., so they join a gang..., so then they have to prove how tough they are by bullying, beating, killing someone else........

 

Do you know respect has NOTHING to do with any of this? They may be stronger, they may be able to beat up some innocent on the street, or shoot them and RUN and HIDE because they are SCARED they will be caught...but this is NOT respect. You can get someone to be AFRAID of you, but that does NOT mean they respect you. Fearing someone doesn't mean respecting them. Somewhere in the streets they have it all backwards. Bottom line is most of them are SCARED inside and acting tough on the outside. If they were brave, they would not be part of a gang and would have courage to stand on their own two feet. Even in the prisons when you hear them talking, they say they joined a gang so they would have protection because they were scared to be alone. Then when they get caught THEY ARE SCARED to turn anyone in because they are AFRAID they will get them for it.

 

I am saying this because I want you to understand what your mother may be thinking of as respect for her in the family, might not be respect at all, just fear of her and what she might do to them. Just as she fears others in your family might treat her the way she has treated and bullied them throughout the years.

 

Has your mom had anyone in a position above her who has not treated her well? Did she like them? Did she respect them? Or did she resent them?

I believe you will find she disliked them a lot even if she felt she had to allow it. I believe she wouldn't respect them. I believe your aunt who has been abused by YOUR MOM for years doesn't respect your mom or even any of the rest of you either, even though she may yearn for a kind word.

 

Your aunt's in an arranged marriage I presume? Her husband doesn't get abused by your parents or the others?...yet, your aunt's husband stands by and allows the continued mistreatment and abuse of his own wife for years?

 

Your parents consider arranged marriages to be happy and successful? Is this an example of a successful marriage where the male allows his wife to be mistreated or abused for years by his own family and he doesnt stand up for her against them? You think this is a loving relationship they have? Is this a caring relationship they have? Is this a respectful relationship they have?

 

The children were raised by him as well as your aunt. Is this Indian male showing respect for his own wife? He continues to take her to family gatherings where he is treated well and he watches his wife be abused with tears streaming down her face like you see, and he laughs and jokes while she stands alone crying? Is he protecting his own wife like INDIAN males are supposed to protect the females? She has FALLEN FROM GRACE, AND she gets more abuse. Just as Sadgati said about some in her family, you can clearly see nobody is protecting the females...NOT EVEN THEIR OWN HUSBAND. He allows her continued mistreatment. Neither one of your parents are protecting your aunt...THE FEMALE.

 

If it isn't clear to you by now, the values your family PRETENDS to honor, are LIES.

YOU have caught your own mom lying repeatedly..and your brother

 

They do NOT protect females, not even within your own family

 

YOU have caught them contradicting themselves REPEATEDLY..same as lying

 

You have caught your own mom trashing all priests as crooks..another lie

 

You have discovered they are racist, and you said they actually finally admitted it to you

 

They are bigots, and you have their own words telling you

 

They are FOR segregation, and their own words argue for it

 

They don't help the fallen...they stand by and watch or push them down, and walk all over them so they can never get up

 

They don't treat family members with love...they use them to walk on and step on

 

They don't help the fallen...ONLY those who can increase their social status

 

They are selfish, greedy, arrogant, malicious, cruel.....add some evil into that as well.

 

They DO force arranged marriages on you.

 

They ARE selfish and conniving.

 

They do NOT care about their own sons...or their moral values or their souls, only themselves.

 

Your mom blackmailed you.

 

Your mom would sell her sons souls for HER OWN status, because that is what she says over and over again is what she wants from you and your brother. That Reactant, is NOT a good woman or mother.

 

They lied to you about racism and said all religions and culture are racist so that makes it ok for them to be racist...although that isn't true, it is only some people within each one who may be, not the groups as a whole.

 

They lied to you about ALL WHITE CHRISTIANS being angry about a possible BROWN Jesus.

 

Your mom lied about the Hindu priest you arranged for her to meet, and when you questioned her she didn't know what was wrong with his beliefs either...she had just made up something

...LIED...TO...HER...OWN...SON...TO...HIS...FACE...AND THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME. Is this a respectful person?

 

If your mom is ashamed for your uncle or your relatives or her peers to hear her, or for the priests to hear her, or even know what she looks like.....her own or the one you arranged for her to meet with...and she doesn't want relatives knowing what she is saying or doing.....then she knows she is wrong and is ashamed but she doesn't care and is doing it anyway. She just doesn't want to be caught doing what she is doing...hypocrite, lying, sneaky. BULLY! ABUSIVE BULLY.

 

Do I need to continue? Because if I go through these forums you have said a whole lot more than this about the lies and dishonesty of your parents and brother...... or do you see they aren't respectful people...they are MEAN, NASTY, GREEDY and care ONLY about themselves?

 

Why don't you meet with or just call and talk to your mom's priest and see what he says your Holy Book says. You could say you wanted to see the church doctrine and their belief system so you could learn more about it. Most churches will have one. Or, does your mom's church or temple? have a place online you could go to ask questions or see their doctrine? Ask how they feel about racism etc. If you direct it as racism being toward Indians first and see what they say...then whites after and see what a difference the white being racist to the brown or brown being racist to the white makes to them and compare.

 

My mom has warned me not to get 'too close' to J because (paraphrase) 'when u break up with her, later on when u finally get married to a nice indian girl, she'll come to your marriage and tell everyone that u and her were once together and try to ruin your marriage' <<<Clearly my mom think J is the lowest form of human life..

 

Do you see how dirty your mom fights? Now she is cajoling you...wheedling you...,...and working on brainwashing you again. Reactant, you really NEED TO SHOW YOUR MOM INDIAN GIRLS ARE NOT NICER THAN THOSE OF OTHER RACES... SHE LIES TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are good and bad everywhere. Sadgati mentioned this also. I would point out right back to her every BAD THING YOU HAVE WATCHED YOUR OWN MOM DO,.... LIKE LIE OR ABUSE YOUR AUNT...... DID OR INDIAN GIRLS YOU KNOW DID, and show her they are NOT all nice girls just because they are Indian. You shouldn't have to do this, but you are really left with no choice. You have to fight and attack your mom and even put her lies in front of her own face because she is the core of all this nastiness.

 

Also, again we are left hearing you listen to the nasty lies your mom tells you and you are staying silent to her and just listening? WHY? You are going to have to stop her, or you ARE enabling her to lie. As much as it may pain you....YOU HAVE TO SHAME YOUR MOM BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is being disgusting. You say they all sicken you.....TELL THEM THEY SICKEN YOU, SHAME YOU, .......don't sit there and just listen to that garbage and filth.

 

 

>>>My parents havent told him. According to my mom she got sent an inch full of letters from R's ( my brother's ex girlfriend)'s mom. I think in the letters is how R's mom feels about the situation and she is very upset by it. My mom said they havent read much of it. I think its beacuse they are choosing not to read much of it because it critisms about my brother and the stuff he pulled.

 

Why would they tell you but not your brother? They didn't let you read them right? Why not? Ohhhh....I am sure your mom would be very upset with the WHITE girl and have all kinds of nasty things to say about her and her family if they had treated you or your brother or your parents the way they treated "R". WHY...CAN'T YOU USE THIS AGAINST YOUR PARENTS AND BROTHER? I think they didn't tell your brother because they were scared of something in the letters which might affect his decision and they didn't want to risk it. Their hold on your brother might hopefully be more tenuous than it seems if this would worry them. In fact, all of your mom's arguments are false and tenuous. Why don't you tell her just stop it now mom...look what you have done to this white family...put it into her face.

 

You DO KNOW how hypocritical it is of your mom, brother that they are telling you how wonderful Indians are when they have done this horrible cruel thing to an innocent white family AND YOUR OWN AUNT? What they would say about this same white girl and her family IF THEY HAD DONE TO YOUR BROTHER WHAT YOUR PARENTS AND BROTHER DID TO THEM?

 

Each time they tell you how bad a white family is compared to an Indian one....why don't you just say.....LOOK HOW THIS INDIAN FAMILY OF MINE TREATS PEOPLE...LOOK HOW YOU MOM, YES YOU MOM, TREAT PEOPLE. She is the nasty one, and she is judging everyone by how SHE ACTS and THINKS.

 

Ask her, why mom...are you afraid they will treat you like you treat people? You have to challenge your mom Reactant...she is the core of this hatred and bigotry. She is trying to make you become that way too. Pray to God for the soul of your brother and your mom.

 

Does your dad really feel this way, or is he just scared of your mom?

 

>>>Yup. I know my parents are busy but they can make time to read it. Its not positive information, i know its negative info.

 

How are you so sure if your mom didn't allow you to read it? You know she lies to you about a lot of things. Do you really want to take only her word for it?

 

>>>I havent called him a coward before. Many people in the forum are calling him a coward. I guess its a matter of repetition to get a point through or this quote demonstrated it well, i dont know but it is becoming very clear that he is a coward. i will call him out on this and call him what he is. Thank u..

 

When will you do this? At his engagement ceremony in April when it will likely be too late? You DO realize your brother's soul is at stake here don't you? What about "R"? You can't wait.

 

>>>I have done that to a degree. but part of me feels its too dirty. Exposing his life and dirty deeds to my parents to make a point makes me feel dirty inside. At one point i used to wish his ex became his wife, but over time (this is before they broke up) i wished either my brother would change or she break up with him. Overtime i felt my brother wasnt good enough for her as he was very verbually abusive to her. Part of me felt it was a mixed blessing in disguise, that she will eventualyl move on and see greener pastures. But she didnt, she missed him and told me she will never love anyone else again.....

 

This upsets me in many ways. I already stated a lot of my views on this above. But, when your brother or your mom are acting so dirty, so sickeningly dirty to your aunt and this white girl.....why, oh why would you ignore it or feel dirty to challenge them? You just sit by and watch your brother bully someone or your mom bully someone and you do nothing? That is what should make you feel dirty...doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. You need to reach inside yourself and stand up to your family, and that includes your mom. You feel sickened by them, tell them so.

 

If you let your brother marry this brown girl and you DO NOTHING....or turn your back and don't challenge him in front of this brown girl...then you should feel sickened at yourself too.

 

>>>Sigh. Why didnt i get this through my head earlier. Your right. This is an arranged marriage, now i see why everyone in the forum has been calling it that. This is a caste system, different system but still a caste system.

 

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your mom lied and said you don't follow one. There really is no difference. All the criteria is the same.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Sparkling

[Shark]

 

Reading over my posts it sounds like i come on here and complain what my family has said but not really explaining what i said in response to them. If i had just mentioned what my responses were it would give grounds for people to critique and possibly make the argument more refined for next time.

 

Sigh. Why didnt i get this through my head earlier. Your right. This is an arranged marriage, now i see why everyone in the forum has been calling it that. This is a caste system, different system but still a caste system.

 

Yes, you need to start doing some fighting back and talking about it. More people than just you need some help here. When are you going to start calling your mom out on all of her lies? From here on out, if she talks to you about marriage, white people, Indian girls, religion, how loving she is to the fallen, or how your family does all this noble S**T... figure she is lying to you and playing you for a fool. She isn't virtuous. Look for yourself, and remember R and your aunt, your brother and your gf. Your mom is full of it......

 

I am going to sit back and wait to see if he does anything to help his aunt and R... sooner as opposed to later. Or wait to see how long will he be content to let them both suffer.

 

But, I want him to see this definition of caste system. It is everything his mom lied about and told him she doesn't do. You can't get much more rigid than his mom is about who he and his brother are expected to marry or interact with. Scratch that, not expected, DEMANDED, ORDERED to marry. So much for God's free will. His mom is all about STATUS, STATUS, STATUS, SOCIAL CLASS, SOCIAL CLASS, SOCIAL CLASS for herself. It is outlawed in India, but she still practices it.

 

Her intentions are to make a slave out of you and have you and your brother become her little submissive, slavish sons and carry on the family practice of bigotry, segregation, racism and abuse for those your mom considers beneath you so people will envy her?!! ?? Why the H*LL would she sell out her own sons for her own social status?

 

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-caste-system.htm

A caste system is a type of social structure which divides people on the basis of inherited social status. Although many societies could be described in this way, within a caste system, people are rigidly expected to marry and interact with people of the same social class.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Shark

[Karena]

Quote: My parents will be outkasted and there is no exaggeration in this.

 

I would tell my parents and especially my brother that it would be JUSTICE BEING SERVED, and serve them right... for the malicious, vile, CRUEL, ways you have watched them treat people over the years who have "fallen from their grace", like your aunt for the last ....?... years, and for the maliciousness they showed to your girlfriend because she is white, but more importantly AND FAR WORSE BECAUSE A LIFE WAS/IS HANGING IN THE BALANCE..... the malicious, cruel and despicable way your brother and your parents treated and turned their backs on his "loved" white girlfriend who was sick. A fall from grace would do them some good to learn humility and compassion...they would see how false it is Indians help the fallen wouldn't they? That is what I would say regarding this argument of theirs. It would serve them right...and payback time for what they have callously done to other people....It is justice.

 

I wouldn't show them any pity on this issue. If they are so troubled and scared by someone who would treat someone this way, they should not be doing it either.

 

Their other option is to stand proud and say look at the wonderful way we raised our sonS.?? We taught them God's word and to look at the good inside someone instead of superficial things such as the outside colour of their skin, OR what the person can give to us to build up our own ego just so others will envy us. We taught them inner goodness is more important then skin colour, money, their own status. We taught our son/s to treat people with respect, not as our own personal property. We taught our sons NOT to be selfish individuals. We showed our sons love and respect for the right to make their own choices in life instead of them being dictated by us, and the right to be THEIR OWN MEN........

 

BRAVO!! *CLAP, CLAP*

 

This is exactly what he should be saying. I don't think the boy realizes even yet exactly how sick this is, or how cruel his parents are being to his brother and to him; or the aunt or brother's white girlfriend. They keep doing this pity party with their sons on what will happen to them if they marry white... and expect them to feel sorry for their parents...? But...

 

....They do NOT care about their own sons or anyone else but themselves. His parents show no mercy, no compassion, no pity about what happens to their own sons, or care if their sons have to self-sacrifice themselves. This IS twisted, sick, evil, malicious, corrupt...every vile name we have used doesn't seem to show Reactant how mean and self-centered his parents really are. They want their sons to feel sorry for them, but they don't care one hoot what they do to their sons or the life they condemn them to have. To make their other son believe death is preferable to them being yelled at by a bunch of racist morons...that alone tells and shows their despicable characters.

 

This caste system is ILLEGAL in India. So, it is a crime his parents are committing even according to law in India? What would be the penalty for this crime in India?

 

Reactant's mom has been feeding him a line full of bull all along. One thing I don't understand is how the boy could watch his mom treat his own aunt this way, and the brother's white gf who is fighting for her life, or even his own brother and not feel deeply ashamed of her. Why can't he see how malicious she really is? If you sit there watching her being mean to his own aunt, how can he believe her when she says she helps the fallen, or how kind and wonderful Indians are? When he watches how she treated his brother...and his white gf, why can't he see again how malicious she really is? He has a blind spot when it comes to his mother. She does need to be held accountable for her lies and her cruelty...and you can't tell me it isn't cruel what she has done to his aunt...brother, the sick white gf or the others. They help the fallen?...my God! They certainly don't unless they can get something for themselves out of it....his mom's actions are all very obviously calculated for what she will get out of it. Her sons don't matter, just what they can do for her. He never did answer that question about does his aunt's suffering ever end or is it to last the rest of her lifetime? ...or the white girlfriend, is she still alive?

[Karena]

Her intentions are to make a slave out of you and have you and your brother become her little submissive, slavish sons and carry on the family practice of bigotry, segregation, racism and abuse for those your mom considers beneath you so people will envy her?!! ?? Why the H*LL would she sell out her own sons for her own social status?

 

 

Yep! You summed it up exactly the way it is. Hearing his mom say the words "nice Indian girls" made me cringe.... She is sacrificing her own sons!!!!! ...and she has the unmitigated gall to try to get them to feel sorry for her. She has no heart; and if he lets his brother get away with sacrificing himself for a brown girl, you can add one more abusive bigot into the equation. Racist cycle of abuse. RIGID!

[Reactant]

Hey everyone,

 

Currently i'm in med school and usually read this forum after I try to finish my work for the day. It hasnt been going to well as I finish work around 1-2am and by that point i usually collapse to the bed. So its friday night and i dont mind sleeping a little more late than usual to enter a post.

 

 

"Your pride shows through, and pride is A SIN. Stop worrying about Indians on the whole and care about ALL people. It just sounds selfish and narcissistic. Indians like ours need to stop thinking only about themselves and realize there are a whole lot of other people in the world. If you have to judge, judge the individual not the race as a whole."

 

Your right and i think your brought up a very good point. I grew up watching how my parents carried so much about how their image and the family's image is infront of others. Before I knew it i was also worried about how others will think of me. J noticed this when she first met me in university. When my grades began to slip, i think i cared more about how my perfect image would be tarnished if i got a low grade. It took a long time for me to recognize this and make efforts not to conduct my lifestlye based solely on how others think. Yet as you can read in my past comments, I havent over come this.

 

 

Nope your right. I commonly would get really angry when i worked in the hospital and doctors would define their patients by their disorder. People are their disorders, they are people, we cant define all schizophrenics as the same. This same logic applies to race.

 

 

"-I thought you were different but you sounded just like your family and your brother when you spoke about the white girl. You even rationalized their excuses as to why she isn't worth anything now because she is sick. Your only concern is being fair to a brown girl your family is USING. But, you forget she is USING them too."

 

Wow, i think there has been a bit mis-understanding. I should have been more clearer on my part. I think where u are getting this is from when i wrote this particular line earlier:

 

 

"Theres no way he'll go back to his ex-girlfriend, espically since shes in the hospital."

 

I wasnt trying to rationalize or make excuses for them. If anything, she needs my brother most now in her time of need. I was trying to illustrate their sick twisted logic for not being with her. I should have added it was sick and twisted so people know thats how i felt about it.

 

"But, now you say a WHITE girl suffering from cancer, and who may be dying has no value, and is not worthy of your time. Oh, you didn't say it in those words, but you did say it. She has no value, not to you, not to your family."

>>>My jaw dropped when i read this. No, i havent been there for her. There is more i could have done. Of the few things i have done, one of them was finishing reading the letter and keeping close contact with the family. I've sent letters, and many audio and video recordings of me and my brother (without my brothers consent). They play this for her just incase she can hear any of it. I have told them that my parents have recieved letters but they havent finished reading it, nor would they talk to me about it. A few days ago, without me requesting it, my brother ex's mom sent her letter to my parents to my email address.

 

"I would take as many quotes as I could which made him sound as bad as possible, and I would stand in front of his brown girlfriend and your brother and tell HER what your brother said to the white girl about always loving her or being in love with her even though he was going to settle for any brown girl for her money."

Your right. Sometimes you dont notice yourself until someone comes along and helps put your thoughts into context.

 

"A doctor? You might want to reconsider your job and find another if you can't stand to deal with emotions. "

>>>Its not that i cant handle other peoples emotions. The issues she covered in her letter were about me, about her and my brother and a whole slew of other things. The issues were very difficult to read because i found myself crying every other paragraph. It took me a long time to finally finishing it but i did.

 

"Arriving uninvited and unexpectedly knowing she wasn't welcome and putting your mom on the spot like that was rude and pushy and forward. It was basically a hostile move."

>>>Really? I kinda of thought it differently. Your right though, i dont understand women. It was kinda my idea to give my parents a present. She wasnts sure to get a present or not and pushed her to. I thought if she came dropped a present off, then my parents can see that the person they are constantly dehumanizing is an actual human being. I dunno, maybe she brought up the topic of giving a gift to my parents to make me push her into doing it...i was suppose to tell my parents that she was coming, but it was my fault cuz i never told them much in advance.

 

"you mentioned domestic abuse and my aunt. Why do you only believe this happens only in India or in rural areas? "

>>>Yes domestic abuse happens in all races, countries regardless of income. I think that comment about rurual areas was regarding wife burning. Does wife burning/stoning happen outside of rural and poor areas of india as well?

 

"I told my uncle if he ever touched her again I would call the police because it is illegal here"

>>>That was very courageous of you.

 

"Why do you let them treat your aunt this way? Right there you have a chance to help her."

>>>I know this is going to sound like an excuse: i've never really seen it happen myself, i've only seen hints of it. Such as they would not always be in every gathering event. I can recall one incident where i saw her head down but that was a few years ago. The last relative gathering we had, i attened and she seemed to be oaky and chatting away. According to my brother she is segragated, but i couldnt tell the last relative gatehring i was in.

 

"If she stands apart take her hand and bring her in. Stand by her side. I would start treating her like the human being she really is instead of a filthy rat to be kicked away. Why do you stand by and allow this? Do something. Every little bit helps, and you will get some in your family who feel the same way and follow you once someone else does it first.

"

No your right. Reading over my posts and your replies, i am starting see i have a lot of excuses for my non-actions. All this time I saw myself as a pro-active person who wasnt afriad to point out whats wrong. I've done it plenty of times when when i advocated for my patients in the hospital. Why the difference when i'm at home and with relatives? Whatever the reason, its time i did more than just fight hard for my freedom. Theres injustice happening in my home that spans beyond me. Your all right. I've made excuses.

 

I'm going to give my brother a call, well not now, its 2am.

[Karena]

First you said:

 

To give an example, my aunt A. Her two children got into troubles with the law frequently. Our relatives now all look down at their mother (aunt A). Everytime she comes to relative gatherings she has her head down, no one asks for her opinion on anything, she last to know anything, and she cries many of the times i've visited their home. The sad thing is, her 2 sons have stopped getting into trouble, finsihed thier highschools and are now in college. The picture will be similar to my parents when the relatives find out. My parents will be outkasted and there is no exaggeration in this.

 

So, you saw her crying MANY TIMES...Now you say:

 

>>>I know this is going to sound like an excuse: i've never really seen it happen myself, i've only seen hints of it. Such as they would not always be in every gathering event. I can recall one incident where i saw her head down but that was a few years ago. The last relative gathering we had, i attened and she seemed to be oaky and chatting away. According to my brother she is segragated, but i couldnt tell the last relative gatehring i was in.

 

So, which one is the truth?

 

I dunno, maybe she brought up the topic of giving a gift to my parents to make me push her into doing it....

 

I think if you have to ask this question to yourself, you already know the answer. You don't need to defend her and take the blame yourself. If she is responsible for something she does, then it isn't responsible of you to take her blame just as you wouldn't take credit for a good idea she had. I am not sure I quite trust your white girlfriend, she seems to have a sneaky quality about her much like your moms from some of the things you say about her, playing on you. I wonder if you do see or sense this yourself and that is part of what makes you not sure you love her.

 

>>>My jaw dropped when i read this. No, i havent been there for her. There is more i could have done. Of the few things i have done, one of them was finishing reading the letter and keeping close contact with the family. I've sent letters, and many audio and video recordings of me and my brother (without my brothers consent). They play this for her just incase she can hear any of it. I have told them that my parents have recieved letters but they havent finished reading it, nor would they talk to me about it. A few days ago, without me requesting it, my brother ex's mom sent her letter to my parents to my email address.

 

Isn't it time you were there for her? Or is she still alive? You said there is more you could have DONE. It sounds like she is dead now. Have you inquired about her with her family? Why would her mom send you the letter? Did you tell someone in her family you weren't allowed to read it? I would suspect you did and that would be my guess why she sent it. If she thought you had read it, which would be logical in most families to assume you had, she wouldn't have felt a need to send it again to you.

 

>>>I'm going to give my brother a call, well not now, its 2am.

 

Do you intend to challenge him in front of the brown girl?

If you talk to him, don't forget how he gave some metaphor that had something slightly to do with the subject when he had that discussion with your girlfriend. Keep in mind he will do this again, so sift through what he says with a grain of salt and don't allow him to distract you from the root of this evil...., and stick to what you do know.

 

>>>Wow, i think there has been a bit mis-understanding. I should have been more clearer on my part. I think where u are getting this is from when i wrote this particular line earlier:

 

I wasnt trying to rationalize or make excuses for them. If anything, she needs my brother most now in her time of need. I was trying to illustrate their sick twisted logic for not being with her. I should have added it was sick and twisted so people know thats how i felt about it.

 

Yes, you should have. Does this tell you how sick your parents really are in their thinking? The girl is sick so they turn their backs on her? Is this showing love for a girl they told you they loved? Is this an example of Indians loving kindness toward anyone? You know it isn't. Your mom doesn't behave in the way she claims she does. She sees herself sitting so far up on her mountain that she doesn't see who she tromps on beneath her own two feet, and she doesn't see all the people she throws boulders on and buries beneath her own two feet. She is a pretentious woman lacking substance.

[Sadgati]

No your right. Reading over my posts and your replies, i am starting see i have a lot of excuses for my non-actions. All this time I saw myself as a pro-active person who wasnt afriad to point out whats wrong. I've done it plenty of times when when i advocated for my patients in the hospital. Why the difference when i'm at home and with relatives? Whatever the reason, its time i did more than just fight hard for my freedom. Theres injustice happening in my home that spans beyond me. Your all right. I've made excuses.

 

I'm going to give my brother a call, well not now, its 2am.

 

I just have time for a quick statement right now. I might have mentioned it before but I wanted you to think about this when you talk to your brother. If he tries to tell you he loves the brown girl now, don't believe him. Don't let him distract you from the facts you know. Just like my brother, you have already said your bro doesn't show lovey faces at his brown girl, he told his ex he loved her still while he was with the brown girl and remember...your bro said he is sacrificing himself to you and to your parents...,which proves he DOES NOT LOVE THE BROWN GIRL because if it was LOVE, he wouldn't be saying 'SACRIFICE HIMSELF' or "RATHER DIE" so he doesn't shame his parents.

 

You don't have to give your bro any information you don't want to, so if he quizzes you on anything, just challenge him back, keep the heat on him and don't let him turn it onto you.

 

My bro tried to tell me he loved the brown girl now ..at first. I kept telling him NO YOU DON'T...he would argue with me and I would say NO YOU DON'T. STOP LYING TO ME, I AM NOT STUPID. ..and stuck to quick phrases like that. I didn't actually debate it with him in details, I just kept calling him on it saying No you don't. I told him I can tell.... Your brother might try that too. ...keep at him though. Remember, it was just a few days ago your bro still told you he had to sacrifice himself with her, AND HE TOLD YOU THAT YOU SHOULD TOO.

 

I kept after my brother a LOT even when he told me it wasn't my business, or he didn't want to discuss it...I just did it anyway.....and he finally admitted it to me he still loved his white gf. With your bro you said he didn't want to discuss his white gf with you, but your bro thinks it is ok for him to stick his nose into your business...so SHAME AWAY AND DON'T LET HIM STOP YOU!!! Do it anyway, just like he does to you only be worse than he is. If you have to, act like a mosquito buzzing around him pestering him. He does that to you anyway, so bite back.

 

Now I am working on my parents and my brother shaming them A LOT. My bro for allowing this, my parents for following a system that is illegal and everything else I hear being said on here I can take and use. I told my parents I can't believe they are doing this to him...and what kind of parents are you that you would want your son to sacrifice his own happiness for yours? It is hard sometimes but I keep at it anyway.

 

Remember, if they can all pester the life out of you that gives you equal opportunity to pester them back!! ....Good luck.

 

How is the white girl? Your aunt?

Edited January 10, 2010 by Sadgati

[Sparkling]

I was looking at your profile and saw you had joined here in Feb 2005, very close to five years ago. You talked about another girl you liked at that time and said you had met her first day you started uni. You are in med school now, and have been for awhile so you are somewhere in your mid twenties. Using some logic, your brother would be somewhere close to thirty wouldn't he, depending on how many years there are between you?

 

So, why do you and your brother have to ask your mom for permission before you leave your house? That is just crazy. I have to wonder why she won't allow you to grow up. You said it is huge and you have to ask, and your brother has never left without asking. I can see saying hey mom, I am heading into town, but asking permission?

 

Out of curiosity, whatever happened to that other girl? It isn't this one because you said you met her around a year before you went to med school. You were left hanging on the advice department that time, few bothered to reply, and none did after your last comment. Glad to see you survived it.

 

You asked more about bride burning. I found several articles about it. Most agree with everything which was said on here...causes are arranged marriages, placing a value on the bride or dowry, BLAMES CASTE SYSTEM, no divorces, the inlaws own the bride, she is considered their slave, over 25,000 bride burnings a year, and more die by other means, limited or no police help, GREEDY PARENTS AND THE HUSBAND, the evil is in the practice of arranged marriages for profit..and glamorize the SLAVERY YOU PERPETUATE!! It also states you sell your daughters into bondage....Also, there is an increase in women aborting their fetus if it is going to be a girl to avoid having to put their girl child through this. I found quite a few articles about this, and one on the list shows bride burning is done predominantly among the Hindu-Hindi heartland among the most affluent areas.

 

I will quote a few. You really should read through it yourself, although it does show a few pictures of burn victims:

http://rashmanly.wordpress.com/2008/09/13/15858/

 

"We imagine that it cannot happen to anyone we know, that our education and money has raised us above these village truths.

But that isn’t so – we merely glamorize the slavery we perpetuate, and pretend to endow our daughters and sisters with "gifts".

These aren’t dowries, we tell ourselves, this is just to help her get a good start. Conveniently, we overlook the fact that there’s more than one person getting married, we don’t ask often enough why this good start mustn’t come from both sides.

With these pretexts, we dismiss these as unimportant issues.

And as we look away, an estimated 25,000 brides are killed or maimed every year in India....."

 

"A nation that trades in its people, sells its daughters into ready bondage, what words can describe these horrors?

What kind of progress teaches us to ignore these problems, to pretend that these can never come past our doors?

One day,

our daughters too will pass into slavery,

and the jewel in our eyes will lead

the wretched life we choose to

look away from.

When will it be enough?"

 

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9608/18/bride.burn/

"Police have set up special offices where women can report cases of domestic abuse, but Mohini Giri, head of India's National Commission for Women, said she believes the authorities need to do more.

"Fire was used by most people who did this kind of crime ... (because) they thought that they will not leave any evidence behind," she said. "Whereas if you use a knife, there is an evidence that someone else has done it."

 

"The practice is unlikely to end soon, however, as long as current Hindu attitudes about the place of women in a marriage prevail. Those attitudes -- and the practice of bride-burning -- cast an ironic pall over a tradition of the Hindu marriage ceremony in which the bride and groom walk together around a flame. "

Brian Yasui contributed to this report.

 

 

On this one below, note it says the "more educated" the male and the higher his "social standing", the more he is going to demand....and the greedier he gets:

http://www.answers.com/topic/bride-burning-1

"The root cause of bride burning, as well as other forms of domestic violence against women, lies in their subordination and their frequent powerlessness within their husbands' family following marriage. Thus, cases of bride burning can and do occur without dowry being the causal factor, although dowry is possibly the single largest cause"

 

"Thus, the more eligible the prospective bridegroom (eligibility being perceived as the social standing, the wealth, the educational and career-related achievements, and so forth, of himself and his family) the larger the dowry that his family has the right to demand and receive. M. N. Srinivas, Geraldine Forbes, and other scholars also point out that, in relatively recent times, growing consumerism and the increasing tendency to equate social status with material objects has made it attractive for prospective bridegrooms and their families to use the dowry as a means of enriching themselves at the time of marriage by demanding expensive presents from the parents of the prospective bride. The desire for continuing to benefit materially from the parents of the bride can take the form of pressuring the bride and her family for more dowry even after marriage. The families of prospective brides agree to (or, feel they have no choice but to acquiesce to) the payment of dowry because of the concern that the non-payment of dowry might impair their daughters' chances of marriage. The high social premium still attached to marriage, particularly for women (in the sense that the social status and respectability of women is still largely bound up with their martial status), ensures that families with daughters respond to demands for dowry even when it can ruin them financially. Incidentally, the relatively low social value of girls in Indian society (manifest, for example, in the very recent custom, within some segments of Indian society, of aborting female fetuses) is connected to the financial pressures encountered by their families through the custom of dowry. Dissatisfaction over dowry may find expression through acts of hostility ranging from verbal abuse to actual violence. Bride burning is the most extreme violence against newly married women."

 

http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1996_2/msg00193.html

 

"(ii). The numbers are the highest in the "Hindu-Hindi Heartland" and "Affluent West" areas that are traditional strongholds of BJP and Congress. "

 

"At the same time, surprisingly, some places are almost incidence-free. This could be attributed to the following reasons:

 

(a) Preponderance of non-Hindu religions that forbid dowry- and caste-based marriages;

 

(b) Preponderance of an ancient (pre-Brahminization) Hindu social

system of dowry-free marriage (visible in Assam and Tripura);

 

© Preponderance of tribal societies that have dowry- and

caste-free social system (e.g., the far-eastern areas). "

 

It may be pointed out here that it

is CHEAPER for an Indian man to kill his spouse and obtain a new one with

another dowry than to divorce his wife and pay her maintenance7.

Capitalist economics works at its best in India.

 

There were also some articles in wikipedia and elsewhere.

 

The problem was so prevalent that the Indian government passed a law but it is seldom enforced. Often the bride's sister is forced to be married to the same relative who burned her own sister.

 

http://www.searo.who.int/LinkFiles/Disability,_Injury_Prevention_&_Rehabilitation_partner.pdf

 

"According to UNIFEM more than 12 women die every day as a result of dowry disputes, mostly in kitchen fires designed to look like accidents.a phenomenon that is common in India – could in some cases be linked to dowry demands.

A study conducted in Chandigarh (India) found that married women comprised 78% of total female burn fatalities. 55% of these fatalities were aged between 21-30 years.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Sparkling

[Sparkling]

http://www.womensenews.org/story/domestic-violence/031106/india-domestic-violence-rises-education

 

"Debate about the cultural underpinnings of domestic violence in India is being stirred by a study that found a woman's risk of being beaten, kicked or hit rises with her level of education."

"Equally disturbing is the finding that two of every five women in an abusive relationship in India remain silent about their suffering because of shame and family honor."

 

"Although men's preoccupation with controlling their wives declines with age--as does the incidence of sexual violence--researchers found that the highest rates of sexual violence were among highly educated men. Thirty-two percent of men with zero years of education and 42 percent men with one-to-five years of education reported sexual violence. Among men with six-to-10 years of education--as well as those with high-school education and higher--this figure increased to 57 percent.

A similar pattern was seen when the problem was analyzed according to income and socioeconomic standing. Those at the lowest rungs of the socio-economic ladder--migrant labor, cobblers, carpenters, and barbers--showed a sexual violence rate of 35 percent. The rate almost doubled to 61 percent among the highest income groups."

 

"Researchers have not determined why men with higher incomes and educations are more likely to be violent towards women."

 

 

 

Isn't it sad that the family honor is dependent on the woman and the man can do whatever cruel, inhumane thing he wants to do?

 

Also, this takes away your mom's argument of domestic abuse being only in rural poorer areas.

 

I would also like to know how the ill white girlfriend is doing and your aunt......

Edited January 11, 2010 by Sparkling