My life is a mess.

[Sparkling]

I'd like to share some new developments that have occurred

Aside from the prejudice views my parents share there is another issue i should given attention to is my guilt.

The guilt looming on me about how i've treated J became exponentially huge after i told her I was heading back to medschool in Jan (given i heal in time). She cried, held her tears, became upset but ultimately accepted it and told me she would always support me.

The guilt continued to loom in me and i couldnt sleep nor study. I began to think that my continued relationship with her was only making her more depressed. The being in this relationship was doing more harm than good for her. I even thought so far that i didnt deserve her because of all the pain and misery i continue to bestow on her. The fact that i choose to go to medschool in January despite her telling me she wanted me to say made me question my love for her.

We talked for a while and finally she paused and began to apologize. She told me it was her fault. She explained that shed been looking at everything negatively and would always focus on the things shes doesnt have. She was putting a lot of her anger and pain about losing her best friend on me. She resassured me she would be far happier if i was with her than not. Now this got me really confused and i ended not breaking up with her, but still unsure if i love her.

Thats the thing, how do i fight so hard against my parents when i'm not even sure if i love the person i'm fighting for? Sparkling noticed this and this was her comment:

I will continue standing up to them whether i love my girlfriend or not. Because its about the principle, to establish my future and independence.

Many of you commented how it seems shes pressing guilt on me. As if her entire happiness rests on my shoulder. Now i see that his is completely absurd. I shouldnt have felt as much guilt as I had. Thank you guys for helping me see this!

 

I was just reading over the posts, and I don't see where any of us responded to this question. We responded to a lot so we may have and I just forgot or overlooked it. It was important to you and you asked it specifically though so I want to address it...just in case.

 

You mentioned your brother would return this week as well as how abusive he was, so I hope all is well with you. I wondered what day your brother will return? Do I worry yet, or are there some worry free days ahead?

 

Back to your issue. You know why you have to stand up for to your parents and family as you said so, but are not sure how to fight so hard when you aren't sure if you love the person you are fighting for.

 

My suggestions, but ultimately you have to make up your own mind:

 

1) Make your fight center on the issues involved and not centered so much on your girlfriend herself. Make it a fight for yourself, and a fight for your future. If they direct it toward your girlfriend, turn it around and direct it back to their own behavior, their prejudices, their racism, the rudeness of your relatives etc.

 

2) I would fight hard on the issues regarding their racism, and son...it is absolutely racism when you slam a door and won't allow someone to cross your threshold and the absolute only reason is because of their color. Brown is fine, white is taboo. Try not to justify what they are doing in your own mind or make excuses for it, or this is the way it will be for the rest of your life like Sadgati mentioned.

Your brother stated he would rather die than shame them or have you shame them if you recall. What is the shame Reactant? A white girl in your family? A white girl in your family would give him a reason to die? Racism is a harsh word but when you close a door and lock it up so tight and won't allow them in only because of their skin color that tells the ugly truth about your family.

 

3) They can argue it is about their culture, but the truth is they don't want any white people in your household or in your family, nor will they go to hers even though it was offered. Why? Because she is white. They refuse to even try...PERIOD!

 

4) Why are they so scared they will suddenly be unworthy if a white person enters into it? They are telling you all the horrific things your relatives and friends will do to them and how they would be treated as outcasts. Why would they be outcasts? Because of your "white" girlfriend. Again, brown is fine, white is taboo. Your family isn't willing to accept or compromise on this issue ONLY because of her white skin. That is racism, and you can put all the pretty words about culture around them but the bottom line is if she were brown she would be welcome, but she is white so they won't tolerate her or even attempt to.

Didn't you say your relatives would look down on them if a white person entered the family? Their status would DROP. Why would it drop? Why would their status suddenly become lower and drop beneath that of your other relatives or friend? Because she is white...... again racism. If you look down on someone and just being with them in a family would make their status drop or be lowered, they are looking at white people as being beneath them. Racism.

Your brother said a white person married into your family would shame your parents. Notice, it is the word 'white' that is shaming them. Notice they would "look down" on them. So, by their own words, a white person is beneath them...and that white person would cause their status to drop and they would be considered outcasts. Racism, prejudice.

 

5) Since I get the impression religion is important to them. I would definitely argue with the religious end of it. Each time they said something abusive, racist, cruel to you or negative about someone else only because of their color....., I would point out a religious scripture which shows they aren't behaving in a loving holy way.

..and again each time they create a new scenario about having a white person in the family would bring them abuse from friends and relatives, I would start bad mouthing their friends and relatives about how shallow they are since they could put all of those years of love and friendship to waste simply because they are so racist against white people. I would say how it goes against God, and give examples.

 

6) By the way, why is the white person being blamed for any abuse they would incur? It would be Indians abusing Indians PERIOD! Why? Because they hated whites so much they would take it out on your parents for daring to allow them into your exclusive family....and the sign outside the door says FOR INDIANS ONLY, NO WHITE PEOPLE ALLOWED!

 

7) I would point out how the white family is trying to be kind, they aren't giving them a chance.

 

8) I would point out how they are harassing and bullying you....and abusing you, and you have just had surgery and need rest to heal.

 

9) Each time they put you down as their son, I would firmly say you aren't very proud of their behavior either and tell them why. Racist would be number one on the list. Of course they will likely say you are being disrespectful to them. However, they earn respect and they are being abusive to you. There comes a time when you have to draw the line. You should be respectful, but you don't have to be cowered, and you don't have to respect their actions or pretend that you do. So, speak up.

 

10) Again, I would point out how your brother's white girlfriend stayed, your brother is the one who didn't. This is a very strong argument because it goes directly against theirs and is living proof!!! If I was being particularly abused, I would even add how the white girl showed him up or whatever else I could think to say. They are belittling white girls as running or divorcing when the going gets rough...it might not hurt for them to have a taste of their own medicine.

 

11) You and Sadgati both liked your brother's white girlfriends, and both of you are in contact with them as I understood it from statements you made. You both made the statements the only reason your brothers broke up with them was because of their color. white versus brown (racism again) So, it wasn't a choice which was made because they did anything wrong, it was a choice made ONLY because of their white color. (racism)

So, for every good thing you can think of that those girls did which was impressive, loving or kind regarding them, bring it to your families attention. This is for YOU as you need to make the point to your parents and brother since they are using the color white against you the good you found in a white girl. You need to do this to them to demolish and wash away their arguments to you against whites.. Since these are white girls they know, they make a good choice as you will have more knowledge of them since they were with your brothers for so many years. Since neither of you seemed to have negative feelings about the white girls, and your brothers didn't either, USE (in a good way) them for YOUR benefit to show your families the good in white girls. They stuck with them and didn't run from the relationship and are only out of it because of their color.....(racism) (that was a horrible thing to do to them.)

There are good and bad in every color, in every race, in every religion. They need to open up their hearts and learn to know the person before they shut the door in their face and call them unworthy of being in their family.

 

You said:

 
I dont think i would view my brother as a racist. He thinks theres nothing wrong with Caucasian people. He looks more at the functional consequence than anything else.

How the act of having a mixed marriage would have an impact on our parents. Its our relatives who will get nasty at them and pick on them. In Indian society, family and relatives are close (all my relatives live in the same street as me, 5 family relative homes in one block). My parents are very close with them. 

Believe me i have many relatives who will ripp on them and verbally abuse them. They will be close to outcasts as if they committed adultery

 

I would like to ask you to rethink this statement you made which I just pasted above here. You said you didn't view your brother as racist. But, before you said he dumped his white girlfriend only because of her color.

 

Now, take a look at the "functional consequence" as you called it.

Now tell me why your mixed marriage would have such a tremendously nasty impact on your family which is so bad your relatives will be nasty to them, will pick on them, verbally abuse them, or look down on them, or their status will DROP, or they will be outcasts as if they committed adultery.

 

Racism means: an excessive and irrational belief in the superiority of one's own racial group.

Doesn't this sound exactly like your family, friends, relatives?

One, only one white girl in your family will make all of those people abusive, hate, be hated, and be hateful to you and to her and to your parents.

 

It really doesn't matter how polite you are to a person of another race on the outside, it is how you act and treat them when they walk through your door which shows what your true colors are.

 

Your family won't even let them walk through the door or enter into your family, and they refuse to walk through to your gf's door. Your family is shutting them out.

Isn't this excessive and irrational? It is superiority on their part because it will "drop" your social status so now you will be BENEATH them, and why? Because she is white..and she will shame them.

 

Prejudice means: fear and hatred toward other religions and races; bigotry, intolerance; racism...among other things.

 

If you look at your parents...and brother, this is how they are acting. Exactly. They are crying and acting fearful...however they are afraid of their Indian peers and their reactions (which says negative things about your Indian peers) They are being extremely intolerant, and they are showing viscious hatred.

 

Listen to what they are saying to you, threatening you, blackmailing you.....because of one white girl. (racism)

 

The functional consequence you referred to your brother is actually...HATRED due to a person's color...so much so that your parents will be outcasts, and your brother would rather die? How extreme, excessive or irrational is this? There would be no functional consequence if she were brown would there?

 

I feel you have been told and convinced it is just culture when it is actually racism. Can't you hear the hate in their words? In their threats to you? Can't you hear the hate that will be felt from your relatives and your friends for you having the audacity to bring a white girl into your family?

 

Remember how you felt when they threatened to disown you, or revoke your funding for medical school? Your own brother said he would rather die than live with the shame or the cause of their shame. Why the hate, why the hatefulness, why all of the abuse? HATE, RACISM, AND PREJUDICE.

 

So, when you argue with your family, you might want to think about adding this to your argument.

 

If this information helps you ...good!

[Sadgati]

[

[

QUOTE=Sparkling;2542921]You mentioned your brother would return this week as well as how abusive he was, so I hope all is well with you. I wondered what day your brother will return? Do I worry yet, or are there some worry free days ahead? 

 

I think now is the time to worry Sparkling! The week is almost over. I think it is a bad sign he hasn't returned since he announced his abusive break 'em bro was returning. I wonder if his bro broke him too? I felt very very very happy thinking at least one Indian in the world had the courage to stand up for someone besides themself. I would be very bummed out if they broke him too.

 

Do you hear what I am saying? Reactant is right because that is exactly what they do. Just like he said his brother does, they break you. They break your spirit and then they are happy with you because you were wise to let them break you into little pieces and brainwash you. Nobody is allowed to have a mind of their own. Nobody. It is infuriating they are proud to break you and turn you into a racist. You can shame them in ever other way trying to be kind, loving FAIR, and treat people equal to yourself..., but when you become a racist for what they call the betterment of THEMSELVES in OUR culture, then they are proud of you. It is twisted. If I am kind and treat a white person equally-I shame them, if I look down on someone and say they don't belong because they are white then I will make them proud. Twisted, twisted .....sick.

 

What are they called when a vampire turns you into a mindless creature? A zombie or ?

 

2) I would fight hard on the issues regarding their racism, and son...it is absolutely racism when you slam a door and won't allow someone to cross your threshold and the absolute only reason is because of their color. Brown is fine, white is taboo. Try not to justify what they are doing in your own mind or make excuses for it, or this is the way it will be for the rest of your life like Sadgati mentioned.

 

I was reading through what you said again and was going to quote you but that will just make it too long because I agreed with about everything you said. I just wanted to tell you that much as my heart would love to stand up for my family because I do love them I just can't. I just can't and live with myself because it is wrong. You are right, and it isn't pretty. Reactant said his bro said he would rather die...., brown is fine, white brings shame. It is true they don't want any white person invited into our culture. They make this more than abundantly clear with the way they treat us. If we invite a white person in, we aren't welcome either and will be disowned. It is spelled out for you in certain terms and there is no fine print to read. You can't get much more racist than that. I can't be proud of that and I can't respect that.

 

 6) By the way, why is the white person being blamed for any abuse they would incur? It would be Indians abusing Indians PERIOD! Why? Because they hated whites so much they would take it out on your parents for daring to allow them into your exclusive family....and the sign outside the door says FOR INDIANS ONLY, NO WHITE PEOPLE ALLOWED!

 

I completely agree with this and I am thinking I might put this message "FOR INDIANS ONLY, NO WHITE PEOPLE ALLOWED!" up outside on our front door if I could get the courage.. You see, they say these things behind the door so nobody can hear them. It is sneaky. They are nice to their faces. Since they believe it so strongly they want to disown their own child, then be proud of themselves and their racism instead of hiding it away as a silent shame. Since they feel so strongly about it, why hide it? If I make them proud behaving as a racist, let's hang a sign outside our door and make them feel very proud of who they want to force me into being. I can tell them this is what you want me to do to make you happy!!

 

I do think they know it is wrong...or they wouldn't pretend around a white person or be hiding it.

 

Thank you Sparkling for giving all of these suggestions. I know they are for Reactant and not so much me, but they are good ones. You cut through all the hype and got to the core of the apple~ You are right what racism and prejudice means.

 

I saw earlier what you were talking about with the multi quote button. There is a quote, multi quote, and quick reply option..., and when I press multi quote I can't see anything that happens.

 

I hope Reactant didn't get smashed to pieces by his bro.

[Karena]

I have been around for a long time. You are never too old to learn something new. I am blessed to have kids, grandchildren, great grandchildren who teach me new things which help keep me young and active.

 

I stumbled upon this site last night when I couldn't sleep due to medical issues. If you are asking for advice from someone, keep your mind open and listen to what they have to say. You might not like what they have to say, but you have an opportunity to learn something new from each one of them. They may not give you the answer you hoped to hear; but then they could be right anyway.

 

LDR; be thankful you have internet, cell phones, and the ability to reach out and make almost instant contact with your loved ones. I hear a lot of griping and whining; but so far I have not read about one person on the LDR site who appears thankful for what they are given. Enjoy your gifts! It could be far worse and far more difficult.

 

I remember people standing outside looking up in excitement to see an airplane fly over. I saw the first satellite in the sky as it passed by our area; people stood outside in their yards to view it. We had the old phones where you had to ring a code with a crank to call someone; then you talked with them over a party line where anyone could listen in. We were lucky if we received a letter after waiting for months from our loved ones who were overseas.

 

Take time to appreciate the gifts you have been given, enjoy them; and with them know your ability to communicate almost instantly to anyone anywhere in the world is far different and by far superior from those who lived in the past. They managed. You can too. Be thankful you have a loved one!

 

Reactant, you are a young man struggling with your inner self to find yourself and your place in this world. God grants you free will to choose your own path. As you walk through life you will come to many crossroads and have to make the decision of which road to take. This is your time to make a decision and choose which path to walk on and follow. Choose it wisely; for if you choose the wrong path you will only live to regret it; for with that decision comes either pride or inner shame. Will you stop along the way and take time to help others; or will you pass them on by without lending them a helping hand?

 

If I asked you how you feel about segregation, what would you say to me? Would you approve of it; or would you frown upon it?

 

Would you tell me it is fine if segregation is between whites and blacks? Jews, Catholics, Protestants? Or would you tell me how wrong it was if whites practiced segregation against black people or black people practiced segregation against whites?

 

If whites and blacks practiced segregation against each other, would your family use that information to criticize both black and white races? Would your Indian families say how much better they are are because they don't do that; or would they tell you with smug voices how they are all better than blacks and whites because Indians are more tolerant and respectful to those of other races and colors than blacks, whites, Americans or Canadians are?

 

There is always a pattern of behavior if you look for it among prejudiced people. They will build themselves up as they try to put others down. You are witnessing this prejudice in action.

 

Sparkling gave you the definition of racism and prejudice. Here is the definition of segregation: "Segregation is the act or policy of separating a race; social class etc., from the general mass of society or from a larger group."

 

We have been fighting against segregation for a very long time. My grandfather fought in the Civil War in the USA. He lived in the South, but he CHOSE to fight for the North because he knew slavery was very wrong. We still have his old civil war musket in the family.

 

When our grandfather made that choice, it wasn't easy because it meant he also had to fight against some of his own relatives, friends and neighbors from the south who held the opposite belief as he did. I am not talking about just having an argument, he would be fighting a war against them. But, he chose to start his walk on that path so that all people would have the opportunity be treated equally and without prejudice, racism or segregation. Even after the battle was long over, that fight still continued. So, I am asking you, which path will you choose to walk down? Many people are unaware of this, but thousands of black people also owned black slaves in the south.

 

My mother always used to tell us to wash away the outer layers of dirt until you see can see a clear picture.

 

When you install barriers between races they aren't allowed to cross because you believe your own race is better to or superior than another; what is it you are really doing? Racism is not just between or about only blacks or whites.

 

Are you aware slavery is also "a submission to some habit or influence?" Or, "you are being held as a property or chattel; like livestock?"

 

Wash away the dirt from the window Reactant. Look at the clear picture and ask yourself how your parents are treating you. When parents use their children to make a profit or social status gain for themselves; what is it they are doing? When your brothers "submitted to the habits and influences of your race"; what did they become?

 

If the path you decide to take has you "submitting to the habits and influences of your race"; what would you become? When your brothers earned profits and social status for your parents with his submission to the habits or influences of your race; and were used as their property; what did they become? What did this make your parents become?

 

Let's wash off another dirty window and take a look. Have you checked into your Indian history? Have your parents? Arranged marriages are not an original part of Indian culture. They may have become a custom or a practice; but they are not an original part of Indian culture. Arranged marriages were INTRODUCED ONLY as a means of keeping the lower caste systems segregated from the upper caste system.

 

Each time your parents choose a girl or boy who is lighter skinned; they are continuing the practice of segregation. When India outlawed the caste system; arranged marriages should have been abolished along with it; as it was and still is ONLY a tool used to promote segregation. It is not about true Indian culture. It is not about Indian religious beliefs; in fact it goes in opposition to Indian religious teachings. It is not about divorce rates. It is not about a better way of doing things or going along with Indian culture. It is about practicing segregation.

 

Now to clean off another dirty window. You do realize that the pattern of abuse most often runs in a cycle among families. You say within your social status conscious group of friends and relatives there is a pattern of abuse. Your relatives and friends abuse your parents; your parents abused your brother; your brother and parents are now abusing you and giving their all to break you;... where does this pattern of abuse stop? When will it end?

 

It will not end until someone has the courage to stand up against it. It will not end until someone chooses to stop "submitting to the habits and influences of your race" Do you want to continue on this path of enslavement and segregation? You do realize since your brother has joined into the pattern of abuse cycle and he WILL teach his children to do the same just as he is fighting you to do. His children may end up suffering from it just as your parents, brother and now you are if you don't choose to try to stop him.

 

You asked if you can't fight for the girl you aren't sure you love, how do you fight? You have a brother. Why don't you start by fighting for him like others have suggested on here?

 

You do know it wasn't only about functional consequences; you do know your brother has learned hate toward whites because you hear the venomous words he uses when he speaks to you about them and the shame he will feel. You do know he chose to forfeit his will so he can practice segregation. You do know your parents and brothers are practicing racism and color plays the deciding factor as you told us so in message number six for example.

 

Message six you said: "-they feel she will bring great shame to our family as our relatives and friends will speak down on my parents for alllowing this to happen" ~your said your brother feels the same

 

In message number 20 you said: Reactant: I dont think i would view my brother as a racist. He thinks theres nothing wrong with Caucasian people. He looks more at the functional consequence than anything else. ~nothing wrong? Then why aren't they allowed in your own family?

 

In message number 10 you said: "No. I have an older brother. Similar to your story, my brother was in a 8 year relationship with a Caucasian girl. He broke it off with her eventually simply because he felt it couldnt work (based soley on her skin colour my relatives and parents wouldnt approve and therfore he interpreted it would bring shame to him and our family)"

 

Message 20 you said: >>>same with my brother, he was very proud telling his friends he had a Caucasian girlfriend. I think at the root of the matter is about pride and status.

 

Message eighteen you said:>>>Sigh. I was really hoping he would support us, but he can be worse than my parents.

Here is a sample of the reasons he told me a while back (not my words, his):

-your parents have given everything for you. They given up their luxurious lifestyle as university professors in india to come to canada to each work 2 full time dead end jobs.

 

-they dont have a life, they work all day (this is true), save their money and do everything they can so we can have a comfortable life and have opportunities other people dreamed about.

 

-they sacrificed their life for you and this is how you are going to repay them back.

 

- Imagine whats going in their mind when they sacrificed their entire lives working in jobs they hate, to think that all this hard work was for nothing. I would rather die than to have parents doubt even for a second that they wasted their life coming here and slaving themselves for us.

 

-Your mom hasnt eaten in days, your dad cant sleep at night and is sleeping in work all because of the stresses your causing them.

 

 

After saying he broke up with her soley based on the color of her skin; (but, he still loves her) telling us how he feels SHE would bring shame to HIM and your family only because of her white skin.; telling us how he said he would rather die than be shamed; telling us color is a matter of HIS pride and status; how honest are you being with yourself about your brothers true feelings toward caucasians?

 

Be honest, your brother is continuing the cycle of racism, segregation and abuse isn't he?. What path will you take? Will you defend him? If you choose to fight against him, you will also be fighting FOR him as he never should have had to make this choice or been taught to be prejudiced, racist, or to condone segregation. Wash off another layer of that dirty window and look again at your brother.

 

You wrote saying you wanted to continue to fight for a principle if not for the girl you might love. Several different people have given you many different suggestions.

 

Are you willing to fight for the principle? If not, what is stopping you? Why are you confused how to fight when it might not be about just you? The issues remain the same in love or not in love; and they remain the same for abuse your parents may take.

 

Why would you or your brother choose submissive enslavement instead of fighting to stop abuse? Choosing submission isn't getting rid of the problem; it is enabling it.

 

You were willing to fight when it was about me, me, me. Are you willing to fight when it isn't just about you? Are you willing to fight for others so you can stop the pattern of abuse and segregation; and enslavement?

 

So, what choice will you make now and what will you do about it? If you choose to walk the path against segregation, stop and take ahold of the hand of the white girl your brother and your parents threw away into the trash heap as useless to their social standing; pull her up and have her take that walk proudly alongside you and look your brother and your parents straight in the eye as you walk by him.

 

You believe in God? Are you going to stand by Him; or stand for continued racism, abuse and segregation? It is your choice; but which choice you make will make a profound impact when you meet your maker.

 

I spotted some other contradictions in your messages, I will show you one:

In message number four you wrote this about your girlfriend, "Her family has always been terrible support."

 

In message sixteen you wrote: "I told this to J and she began telling me how I can live with her family and how they would support me if i want to do additonal education at the university near their home."

 

She told you they have always been a terrible support? Now she told you they would support you? Which one is the truth? Do they sound very supportive of both of you considering how your family has treated them...? Doesn't their daughter, "J" sound very confident of their support and continued support? Are they terrible supporting her; or are they quite good giving her support? They sound very supportive of her and you to me.

 

Now, before I go I want you to know several people are concerned about you due to your "abusive brother" and how he would treat you when he arrived home.

 

I looked at your profile last night while I was checking things out to see how things worked. You had last been in to read your messages on the 15th. Tonight when I looked it said you were last here yesterday, which would be the 19th. "Last Activity: Yesterday 8:44 PM" It only seems to show your most current visit so there may have been more visits in here from you to read your messages.

 

These people took time out of their lives to help you because you asked. They cared enough about a stranger who said his life is a mess to try to help him. Why didn't you take a moment of your time out of your life to show these people some respect back and let them know how you were? Avoiding a problem won't make it go away.

[Reactant]

"I still think you need a few days off alone."

 

>>>I have. I've locked myself in my room. I've studied, watched a movie, tried not to think about my problems for while, rested, reflected, read all of your posts, and wrote in my journal. Thank u for the advice. I'm sorry i havent posted the last couple of days, nothing has really happend other than me resting. I feel rejuvinated and ready to take on my poarents again. My brother has arrived and althought things are slightly less tense here i know the soon to be fight will be begin anytime soon...

 

"Your parents CHOSE to live in western society in western culture under western laws. "

 

I see what you mean by that. We are in Canada, a western culture and follow their laws ins this society. However my family live and mainly associate with indians. We live in a city where the majority are indians, there is a microcosm indian society here where indian values, beliefs and customs are practiced. To top it off, all my relatives in canada live in my block. Thats 5 other familes as the same street as me.

 

"So, you are essentially saying the root beliefs of your brother are"

>>I dont know this 100%. This is purely my speculations.

>>Yes i would agree his pride and status are very important to him.

 

"little more concerned how you appear to 'western society' and how they perceive you since you are living among us instead of disregarding us as beneath you"

 

>>>very true. Of course they dont want me speaking to anyone about this. My parents freaked when I told them recently that i spoke to a pundath (hindu priest) about my situation. My mom became very angry and said the following points:

 

-My mom was more concenred if the priest knew the family well and if he would spread rumors.

-she discredit all presits and labelled them as crooked.

-and told me the priest was Arya Samaj, a different type of hinduism and therefore I cant take him too seriously. When asked how are they different than hindus in general, she didnt know.

 

 

I also forgot to mention they cry because they tell me they can foresee how terrible my life will be. They keep telling me that i havent thought of the ramifications of my actions.

-How we'll have to adjust to her traditions

-how religion will confuse the child

-the child only learns the mothers tongue and since she cant speak hindi (as of yet) the child will only speak english

-she wont be able to communicate efficetively with my parents

-the entire Indian community will pick on her

 

no matter how many times i illustrate solutions to this potential problems, they always remind me how i'm young and naive, that being the youngest in the family i cant possibly know what i'm speaking about.

 

I feel anything i say, no matter how presuasive its always shut down by them either labelled as i'm a young or i simply can never understand the hardships i will endure and they will endure.

 

"ONE white person has the power to take away all of the years of love with their family? If that were true, what does that say about your Indian culture they are so proud of? They are giving a lot of control into the hands of one white person."

>>Hahaha, i love the way u phrased it, i'm going to say this to them.

 

 

"1) Why did they move to Canada? if all your brother said is true? Something is missing here. If they gave up luxurious lifestyles so their kids could have a better life, it doesn't sound like it was all that luxurious in India. "

>>>No, it was good. My parents both were teachers at colleges. The common belief/dream is that no matter where are in India, North america is better.

 

 

"2)They work two FULL TIME jobs each? That leaves four hours left in the day. "

>>>well they used to. My mom has one full time job now while my dad has 2. The second job he goes to 4 times a week. Each dont get much sleep.

 

 

"Do you believe for one moment your parents had no life? They raised two kids who are part of their life, but that doesn't count? Have they never traveled, visited relatives or friends, , gone on a picnic, taken the scenic route on a drive, gone to church, attended festivals or parties, visited back in India? Your brother says this is NO LIFE? They have lived in two countries, traveled, raised two sons, but had no life. Their life has been a good life. Your brother is dismissing any other job as being a dead end job...and looking down on anyone who works those jobs as being nothing."

>>>Your right, i never looked at it that way before. Phrasing the argument that way makes it all sound silly.

 

 

"God's words on them and bring them back down to reality"

>>>Speakign of which, does anyone know some lines from Hindus scripturs about this? I have serached for a while but nothing so far. When i do find something, i'll be sure to post it for others in similar shoes.

 

 

"You are getting a look into their real personality, and it isn't pretty."

>>>I dont like to think this is their real personality. Its the act of desperation. Do and say anything to get the job done.

[Reactant]

"Hey Reactant, are you feeling any better? Is the pain too unbearable? It sucks being sick and dealing with drama at the same time.

 

>>>Hi Sadgati, i'm feeling much better, more rejuvinated. THe pain is much more tolerable with the help of pain meds. I've come to understand that the pain is much more intensive when u are stressed out.

 

"Hard decision? Was it a hard decision for them? I don't know anymore. I think they are anti-religious because God doesn't tell us to do this to people."

>>I dont know about u but i thought it was a hard decision. Its not easy to choose the option of having your family have complete contempt for you.

 

"Do they love? Or do they use us?"

>>Thats a intersting statement. Use us... The American Indian dream is to have a child who is either a engineer, laywer, doctor or pharmacist. Do whatever it takes to get there. of course when u become one, other indian families will envy your family. Even still, i believe they love us, just misguided.

 

"If I were mistreated by my husband or his family, would they love me and rescue me or would they leave me alone or abandon me so I don't shame them by divorcing my husband?"

>> IF thats ever the case, then yes i would question their love.

 

Again, everything i say is based on my opinion. I could be reporting their side completely false.

 

"If the life in India was luxurious, then why move to another country? If they had so much wealth, why did they move? My parents moved so they could gain wealth and opportunities they didn't have in India. The pay back then really sucked in India. Even if you did have a more important job, the pay wasn't a lot I am told. Although, goods were cheaper."

>>>Like i said, no matter how wealthy a family was in India, the idea back then was North America would be much better. My dad's older brothers all worked to allow my dad to go to college and get his degrees. So in a way, he needed to pay them all back, and he did this by giving them our 3 story house, extra land and the businesses he ran.

 

"Life wasn't that great in India, especially for women. A lot of my friends who were girls weren't even allowed to go to school, only their brothers because girls weren't important. Girls were even sold off to work for their families."

>>>I'm sorry to hear that. My mother grew up in a family where education was highly valued. All of her 3 sisters received their masters in India.

 

"I hope, hope, hope, you remember to tell us how this plays out!!!!!!!!!!!"

>>>My mother went on to discredit the pundath.

-She said (translated) 'just wait if i ever do talk to him he would be so sorry i did, I would pose questions to him that would make him confused and switches bases fast'

-in the end she refuses to speak to him even on the phone as shes afraid he might recognize her, even though he knows how i am.

 

"They are abusing you and trying to control you and for you, you can't let them. "

>>>I wont, i wont give up. Speaking to you guys, taking the time to rest, and reflect has given me the strength to continue. Thank you everyone, Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[Karena]

Hi son,

 

I am glad to see you wrote so they wouldn't be worried.

 

I have one site on equality among races and scriptures. I have read more; this is just one site I happened to have. Almost all religions say something similar. I will make some comments first and then paste it for you after.

 

Remember, it only takes one person to bring about change. The Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King; and many others just like them throughout the world. You can do this if you keep love for everyone inside your heart. You can Son! I know it!

 

I have witnessed people change throughout my lifetime even among those hardened to the point many people felt it wasn't possible. I have witnessed fits and rages people fly into when they even think about having to associate with a person of another race or religion. Your parents are throwing fits and rages which are directed at you son. Have you asked them where is the love in their hearts for everyone instead of this hatred, negativity and resentment?

 

There was a time I witnessed a friend roll down his car window and shout obscenities at a white and black couple for just holding hands on a university campus; much to my shock, horror and embarrassment. That is only a minor incident I could tell you as compared to others. My point is; he grew to regret it in later years and felt ashamed of his actions. Times are changing and it has been a long hard road and there is a lot more work to be done.

 

I believe you will live to regret it if you give up this fight.

 

Son, remember to fight for your brother too. At one time he didn't want this for himself but he has changed. So, please help him realize it. Help him even if he says he doesn't want your help. Someone else here tried to tell you this too and I agree. I believe he will live to regret this someday; and if not in this life, your brother will regret it when he goes to meet his maker and stands before him and tries to explain to Him why a female wasn't worthy of being in his family because she was white; and the viscious things he said to you about whites who would dare to enter into your family. God gave your brother life; He said everyone is equal; and your brother said, "he would rather die than....." Help your brother son because he does need you.

 

You said to Sparkling: "I see what you mean by that. We are in Canada, a western culture and follow their laws ins this society. However my family live and mainly associate with indians. We live in a city where the majority are indians, there is a microcosm indian society here where indian values, beliefs and customs are practiced. To top it off, all my relatives in canada live in my block. Thats 5 other familes as the same street as me. "

 

Son, your family is practicing segregation. Regardless of the however; they still live in Canada. Their intent upon moving to Canada was to form a new India? Since they wanted something better for themselves when they moved; it is past time for them to let go and stop clinging to the past and move forward. Moving forward doesn't mean you lose who you are or lose those things of value to you. You let go of some of the old; open up your hearts and rejoice in the wonderful, new things and experiences people of all cultures can teach you. Life is too short to sit huddled up scared in your own little world afraid of disapproval or being bullied, harassed and picked on from your own family and friends.

 

There is no reason for them to have to put up with intimidation or bullying like that. You shouldn't have to either. This system your mom wants to keep in place where she is scared to death of her own relatives is not a better system. Do you think you could say that to her?

 

You said your girlfriend was clinging to you as if you were her life support system. Your parents are doing the same. You know this don't you? You were wise enough to see it when your girlfriend was depressed and clinging to you. You are wise enough to realize your family is doing the same. Look at the harm they have caused.

 

Son, have you suggested your mom go see a counselor? You thought your girlfriend could use one; and your mom is behaving very similarly.

 

You need to fight to stop this practice of abuse and bullying your family does; and most of us reading your cry for help are in agreement here. The issue isn't just that your family will do it; it is that you expect it now; allow it; enable it; and condone it instead of stopping it. Your mom, your brother and you have all said the same to you about what they have done and what they will do. You know you need to stop it.

 

Have your parents or brother ever shown regret or compassion for the hurt they inflicted on your brother's white girlfriends? Son, they can't deliberately hurt any person for being the wrong color and treat them like that and expect God to be happy with them or sing His praises to them.. You know that too don't you? Your parents need to know Indians are wrong to abuse anyone. You mentioned her briefly; but did you try to help her with your brother?

 

Again, I am not alone when I say my heart aches for your brothers white girlfriends. Reactant, you said your brother was with her for 8 years? She sounds like a remarkable, loving lady.

These are my opinions regarding the numerous things your mom had to say:

Don't you think you should also find a scripture on pridefulness for your family. They only wish for people to envy them? The majority of their arguments you quoted seem to be is based solely on their pride. Your brother was the same.

 

They have so much pride that it hinders and weakens their relationships not only among themselves but among their relatives and friends; and now the priests are all crooked? That isn't a strength son; it is a weakness which scares, intimidates and hinders them throughout their lives. It weakens their relationships with God. You see it in their fear of your own relatives; their fear of what the priest will think or do.

 

Something is very wrong with the system which causes you to live in fear of being exiled by the people you think are supposed to love you the most. Your family needs change in their lives. When it happens, it isn't as scary as you believed.

 

Son, your Mom is committing grievous sins with her attitudes toward all others who are not Indian. She is slandering everyone who is NOT Indian; and everyone who is not of the same faith. You said you get frustrated with them and you think they don't hear you; but they do. Trust me; they hear you. They just don't like what you are saying; and that is ok; continue to say it to them anyway because they need to hear it.

 

Son, when your mother makes generalizations such as all priests are crooked; challenge them. If they make up false facts about someone; they are slandering and lying. Does God tell them lying is ok or slander? Those arguments they make which frustrate you so; which are baseless and made up on the spur of the moment are your openings or your loopholes to push at which will help weaken their arguments in the long run. Use them to your advantage.. For example when she discredits "all priests and labels them all crooked"; challenge that. Ask her why; what did they do. Pick one of their names out of the phone book and ask what Priest ___ did that was crooked?

 

Could you indulge in slight mockery if you have to such as "You have met all the priests in the world!!!" or "How did you find out they were all crooked? or Did you spy on all of them or hire a private detective?" Those aren't necessarily the best examples but maybe they will help you understand my meaning.

 

I have found indulging in self-mockery to be helpful at times; more of a satirical mockery; which in your case would be Indians; arranged marriages; segregation; crooked priests; racism; pride; envy; abuse; and the list you just pasted about your mom's arguments and reasonings. This reminds me; there is a male, Indian comic who is very popular. He specializes in mocking Indians; but I don't recall his name. Russell ...?? He is a great example of friendly based self-mockery for his own culture.

 

You mentioned your brother has barely known a brown girl he intends to do a ring ceremony with. Could you take as deep a look into her background, the imperfections of herself and her family, her behavior, her beliefs as your parents have done to you with your girlfriend and with all of those crooked priests and white people to show your parents all Indians aren't perfect or better than other races or religions? Sad as it seems; sometimes turn around is fair play applies if it makes your point.

 

Why is your mom more concerned the priest would spread rumors? None I know have done that; but say they did. They aren't rumors if they are the truth. A rumor is statements like your mom is saying. It is a story or report circulating without known foundation or authority. So, her fear is he will do to her what she just did to him. Only in his case he would be telling other people the truth about what she is doing to her sons; what she has said to her sons; what her beliefs are about white people; what her beliefs are about other religions even those which are based on Hindiusm.

 

Isn't your mom spreading rumors when she says to you :all priests are crooked?" Challenge them. This I could have say to my mother: You mean you are afraid he will spread rumors and hate like you are? Are you afraid he will tell the truth about you and people will know who you really are inside?

But this would be very difficult for me to say to my own mom you are lying; but it probably should be said to your mom or called to her attention when she is making up facts. If your mom caught you in a lie or making up something; she would call you on it. It sounds less harsh to point out and say to her, "you are making things up." ; "How can I respect you when you make things up?"

 

Reactant; your mom feels shame about her behavior; she feels guilt and shame which is why she is afraid for you to tell anyone what she is doing. She does feel shame; and the thought of anyone outside the family knowing what she is doing is embarrassing to her; but it isn't stopping her. How would she react if you said you are going to tell everyone what she is saying since it is the truth? Would that stop her?

 

If you don't mind, would you ask your mom about this so we can hear her reply? You said, "-the entire Indian community will pick on her" I would like to have you ask your mom if she feels proud of the Indian community for picking on a white girl or your family, or her? This is another loophole and a weakness you can use for your fight against racism. You can get great mileage from this one. If the entire Indian community will pick on her; isn't it enough to convince them things need to change and how badly the Indian community is behaving?

 

Did you say you don't speak Hindi but you understand it? If that is correct; why would it be different for a child? I know many, many children who speak both the language of their father and their mother. You said your mom speaks broken English; what about your brother, father and rest of your relatives? If they speak English, this argument isn't valid because they can communicate with her in English as she learns Hindi.

 

Have your parents or relatives ever had a Christmas tree? Have their children Trick-or-Treated on Halloween? Have they given a flower or candy on Valentine's Day? Looked forward to boxing day? If so, how hard were those traditions to adjust to? Reactant, adjusting to other traditions is a joy; not a curse. It is an adventure.

 

You could argue back that your parents are too old and stubborn and set in their ways; and that you are the wiser, more loving, non-racist.

I enjoy learning about new things or celebrating traditions of my neighbors from other countries. They celebrate mine too and it is fun. We have a lot more holidays to celebrate among us!

 

You said:

">>>I dont like to think this is their real personality. Its the act of desperation. Do and say anything to get the job done"

 

Do you believe this reflects poorly on them that they could resort to treating a person, their own son, or their white girlfriends exactly the way they are scared they will be treated by your relatives or friends? In any act of desperation; it shows what you are capable of doing or how low you can go. They have a choice; and they made it.

 

Remember, you can do this!

 

Here is the site:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/humequal.htm

]Religious texts which favor equality:

Almost all religious and ethical groups have passages in their holy texts, or writings of their leaders, which promote the belief that all humans are of equal worth.

Bahá'í Faith: "No difference or preference has been made by God for its human inhabitants; but man has laid the foundation of prejudice, hatred and discord with his fellowman by considering nationalities separate in importance and races different in rights and privileges." Promulgation of Universal Peace, Page 232

Buddhism: "So what of all these titles, names, and races? They are mere worldly conventions." Sutta Nipata 648

Christianity: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3.28

Confucianism: "By nature men are pretty much alike; it is learning and practice that set them apart." Analects 17.2

Hinduism: "I look upon all creatures equally; none are less dear to me and none more dear." Bhagavad Gita 9.29

Islam: "For the white to lord it over the black, the Arab over the non-Arab, the rich over the poor, the strong over the weak or men over women is out of place and wrong." Hadith of Ibn Majah

Jainism: "The Law is that which leads to welfare and salvation. It forms conduct and character distinguished by the sense of equality among all beings." Somadeva, Nitivakyamrita 1.1

Judaism: "...a single man was created for the sake of peace among mankind, that none should say to his fellow, 'My father was greater than your father.' Mishnah, Sanhedrin 4.5

Native American Spirituality: *

Shinto: *

Sikhism: "Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259

Taoism: *

Zoroastrianism: *

[Karena]

Quotes from the Dalai Lama:

 

"The more we care for the happiness of others, the greater our own sense of well-being becomes. Cultivating a close, warm-hearted feeling for others automatically puts the mind at ease. This helps remove whatever fears or insecurities we may have and gives us the strength to cope with any obstacles we encounter. It is the ultimate source of success in life."

 

"And is friendship produced through quarrels and anger, jealousy and intense competitiveness? I do not think so. Only affection brings us genuine close friends.

In today's materialistic society, if you have money and power, you seem to have many friends. But they are not friends of yours; they are the friends of your money and power. When you lose your wealth and influence, you will find it very difficult to track these people down."

 

 

"Compassion and the world

In conclusion, I would like briefly to expand my thoughts beyond the topic of this short piece and make a wider point: individual happiness can contribute in a profound and effective way to the overall improvement of our entire human community.

 

Because we all share an identical need for love, it is possible to feel that anybody we meet, in whatever circumstances, is a brother or sister. No matter how new the face or how different the dress and behavior, there is no significant division between us and other people. It is foolish to dwell on external differences, because our basic natures are the same.

 

Ultimately, humanity is one and this small planet is our only home, If we are to protect this home of ours, each of us needs to experience a vivid sense of universal altruism. It is only this feeling that can remove the self-centered motives that cause people to deceive and misuse one another.

 

If you have a sincere and open heart, you naturally feel self- worth and confidence, and there is no need to be fearful of others.

 

I believe that at every level of society - familial, tribal, national and international - the key to a happier and more successful world is the growth of compassion. We do not need to become religious, nor do we need to believe in an ideology. All that is necessary is for each of us to develop our good human qualities.

 

I try to treat whoever I meet as an old friend. This gives me a genuine feeling of happiness. It is the practice of compassion."

 

 

" I know a physicist from Chile who told me that it is not appropriate for a scientist to be biased towards science because of his love and passion for it. I am a Buddhist practitioner and have a lot of faith and respect in the teachings of the Buddha. However, if I mix up my love for and attachment to Buddhism, then my mind shall be biased towards it. A biased mind, which never sees the complete picture, cannot grasp the reality. And any action that results from such a state of mind will not be in rune with reality. As such it causes a lot of problems."

 

http://www.dalailama.com/messages/compassion

Edited December 21, 2009 by Karena

[Karena]

Reactant,

 

How does your family feel about Gandhi?

 

"Gandhi was born a Hindu and practised Hinduism all his life, deriving most of his principles from Hinduism. As a common Hindu, he believed all religions to be equal, ..."

 

"Gandhi believed that at the core of every religion was truth and love (compassion, nonviolence and the Golden Rule). He also questioned what he saw as hypocrisy, malpractices, and dogma in all religions, including his own, and he was a tireless advocate for social reform in religion. Some of his comments on various religions are:

Thus if I could not accept Christianity either as a perfect, or the greatest religion, neither was I then convinced of Hinduism being such. Hindu defects were pressingly visible to me.

If untouchability could be a part of Hinduism, it could but be a rotten part or an excrescence. I could not understand the

raison d'être

of a multitude of sects and castes.

What was the meaning of saying that the Vedas were the inspired Word of God? If they were inspired, why not also the Bible and the Koran?

As Christian friends were endeavouring to convert me,

so

were Muslim friends. Abdullah Seth had kept on inducing me to study Islam, and of course he had always something to say regarding its beauty.

—

Gandhi's autobiography

 

"Later in his life, when he was asked whether he was a Hindu, he replied,

"Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew."

"

As soon as we lose the moral basis, we cease to be religious. There is no such thing as religion over-riding morality. Man, for instance, cannot be untruthful, cruel or incontinent and claim to have God on his side."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi

[Karena]

Reactant, This is regarding Hinduism and the Golden Rule

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

 

Hinduism

See also: Hinduism

 

 

“One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires.”

—

Brihaspati, Mahabharata (Anusasana Parva, Section CXIII, Verse 8)[26]

 

 

You mentioned your mother using divorce statistics as an argument against you. You might choose to read this article regarding the deceit behind the divorce statistics which Indians are so proud of which makes them advocate arranged marriages as being superior. These are somewhat older statistics I just happened to stumble upon; I haven't searched for newer.

 

Notice the comment about "The unnecessary bride deaths could be totally avoided and the cooking

stove in the bridegroom's family won't get the bad name."

 

If you aren't aware of this practice; this is another common way a lot of Indians to end their marriages; which clearly doesn't add to the divorce statistics. The husband or his parents will set the unwanted wife or daughter-in-law on fire at their cooking stove. Her murder will be written off as a suicide or accident. You can research this more yourself and find it is true.

 

http://www.tamil.net/list/2001-03/msg00019.html

We point out that in the west where love marriages are the norm

the divorce rate is 50%.

 

We don't point out that 40 years ago even in the west

when the economic situtaion was as bad as it exists in India

the divorce rate was very low.

 

We take pride in the "official" Indian divorce rate of only 8%

 

We attribute this to the fact that in India 90% of the marriages

(including mine) are arranged marriages and that is why

it is so low. We even say that it is better arrangement than love

marriages.

 

Recently I was in India.

 

I found the real truth behind this false statistic

 

1. The number of never married women (not by choice) is fairly high.

 

2. In many unhappy marriages they just stay in the house without

living as husband and wife.

 

3. A number of the girls are simply sent to their parents' homes. yet

they are officially not divorced.just ask around .you will find this

in your own families.

 

4.IN small towns and villages (where the vast majoriy of the people live)

the mrriages are unofficially dissolved without calling it

a divorce.

 

When you look at the official divorces, they are almost always initiated by

educated and economiclaly self-sustaining women like

doctors or software professionals.

 

When a doctor woman divorces she meets with no social ostracisation

 

This proves the theory

 

that if India were to have the same conditions as the west

 

1. most of the people were living in anonymous large cities

2. there were plenty of jobs for the taking

3. each job paid a life sustaining job

 

Then many of the unhappily married couples will call it quits.

 

The unnecessary bride deaths could be totally avoided and the cooking

stove in the bridegroom's family won't get the bad name.

 

We got to look at reality and admit it before we can do something about

it.

 

Here is another example:

“The use of fire as a weapon, which seems so exotic, is simply

expedient: kerosene, a ubiquitous cooking fuel here, is a cheap, handy

weapon, much like a gun or a baseball bat in an American home.

Geetha, who like many south Indians has only one name, is a survivor

on a ward where most die, but it would be hard to call her lucky. As

she related her story, she held her head immobile, barely moved her

lips and turned only her dark eyes on a visitor to avoid stretching

the raw, burned skin on her neck. Her wizened mother caressed her long

brown hair, which spread out on a pillow like a mermaid's under water.

Geetha explained that she had been the pampered baby in a family of 10

children who had rarely been expected to cook or clean. Marriage was a

rude shock.

Like most brides in India, Geetha moved in with her husband's family

after an arranged marriage. That was in 1999. Within months, Geetha

said, her husband and mother-in-law began beating her with whatever

they could grab — a kitchen ladle, a broomstick, a stalk of sugar cane

— because they believed that she was shirking her housekeeping

duties…. She sifted stones from the rice, fetched the water, washed

the clothes and fed her husband's nephew. But she said she had not yet

spread a dung mixture smoothly on the front step by the time he got

home. "I had done everything except this," she said. "But he was angry

with me. He said I was lazy. He said if he could get another wife, she

would do everything." That afternoon, as she walked toward the

kitchen, she said, she felt something splash on her back. Then she

burst into flames. When she turned around, she saw her mother- in-law

holding a kerosene can and her husband with a matchbox.”… Pratima and

Gurumurthy, the doctor who heads the Victoria Hospital burn ward,

believe that most of the burn cases they see are actually attempted

murders or suicides, but that the women, fearful and dependent on

their in-laws, keep the secret…. Yet even now, struggling to recover

from burns on 57 percent of her body, quivering in pain beneath a

shaggy brown wool blanket, she expresses no rage against her husband.

"What is the point?" she asked.” Kerosene, Weapon of Choice for

Attacks on Wives in India by CELIA W. DUGGER, New York Times, December

26, 2000

 

 

Another:

“Domestic abuse is common in India, but varies widely by region. In a

study conducted in five districts of Uttar Pradesh, 18-45% of husbands

reported physically abusing their wives. Of those who acknowledged

being physically abusive, more than four in 10 reported an episode of

violence during the prior year and more than six in 10 admitted

repeated abuse… Men in Nainital were least likely to say they had had

nonconsensual sex with their wives (18%), while those in Bandha were

most likely to do so (40%). Men were much less likely to say they had

physically forced their wives to have sex (4-9% across the districts)…

Most of the men who said that they had physically abused their wives

reported multiple episodes (63-91% across districts), and large

proportions said that they had physically abused their wives within

the past year (47-74%). Smaller percentages (5-13%) reported abusive

behavior while their wives were pregnant. Men were more likely to

report shouting or yelling at their wives (33-94%) and slapping or

pushing their wives (47-77%) than punching or kicking them (8-32%) or

using a weapon or object against their wives (5-10%). The men were

most likely to say that their wives had responded to the last episode

of abuse by crying (49-90% across districts) or by shouting and

yelling back (7-42%). Smaller proportions of men said that their wives

had run away from home (4-10%) or had physically retaliated (0-6%). No

more than 3% reported that their wives had sought medical treatment

after being abused.”

In India, Poverty and Lack of Education Are Associated With Men's

Physical and Sexual Abuse of Their Wives, published in Family

Planning Perspectives Volume 26, No. 1, March 2000

Edited December 21, 2009 by Karena

[Sadgati]

I am sick today but I wanted to see if Reactant was ok. I was worried. I didn't intend to write at all, but I saw all of this new stuff.

 

Wow! What dirty secrets our parents hide and fail to tell us when they quote divorce statistics and praise arranged marriages. Since they have lived in India and grew up there, they would know of this too.

 

When I read or hear about how great they claim arranged marriages are, how successful they are, and how now they give you a choice? It is all very hypocritical because they don't give you a choice, that is a lie. You are ONLY given a brown person, and you are only given a few of them to choose from IF you are lucky and have any say at all. You meet with them two or three times, IF you are lucky, then you marry this complete stranger, or your own relative. You are basically sold for what you are worth and the colour of your skin. It is a sick and disturbing practice.

 

I knew women were commonly beaten by their husbands, I mentioned that. Nobody ever seems to care, they just keep advocating arranged marriages like they are a blessing and so much better when they are not.

 

I think it is interesting that those wife beating statistics actually came from the men themselves who admitted to beating their own wives. How many more men didn't admit it and lied? Does it disturb anyone else enough to admit there are some serious problems with arranged marriages that should be addressed? You are putting two strangers together and abandoning them.

 

You will hear how you marry the family-not just the wife..... This is so completely a farce as to be laughable. They send their women off into the unknown with no support and often with NO family members around. The only people being protected or served are the inlaws.

 

Why is it that a divorce is more shameful than a husband who beats his own wife and that beating is allowed?

 

Why is it that a divorce is more shameful than a husband or inlaw who is burning alive/murdering their own wives just because they want to and that is allowed? That practice is common. I can't imagine a more painful way to die than by fire.

 

Why is it that they won't allow a divorce because IT is so shameful, so instead they enable these men and inlaws to do away with a woman by fire like a worthless piece of garbage being burned in the trash? Then the men help cover up the crime and write her off and they go on with their lives with no justice being served.

 

I wish someone would collect these statistics and put them into a forward email to be sent throughout the Indian community. I don't have a lot of patience for research online.

 

Reactant, I think you know your family is racist because you sometimes say so. Then there are other times when you defend them even after you just told us horrible things they said or did relating to white people. When someone comments about some of these things which are mean and racist by your family, you sometimes later defend them and say you don't view them as racist, like your brother for example.

 

I agree with Karena when she says to wash away the dirt and see the clear picture. If you do that, you find at the root and cause of all this mess you are going through IS racism on the part of your parents and your brother. They are practicing segregation. To force you to submit your will IS a form of slavery. As a female I feel that probably more than you ever will as a male. They are prejudice. They are bigots. (one intolerant of or prejudiced against those of different religious beliefs). They ARE practicing segregation.

 

You are struggling on both sides because you love them. I go through that too so I understand why you do it. But, you need to draw that line in the sand and at some point you are going to have to tell them they are racist, bigots and all the rest and stand firm. I am working up my courage to do the same thing.

 

I think most all of us on here agree your brother has completely turned into a viscious racist. I think most of us agree you should stand up to him against how he treated his ex girlfriend only because of her colour. I think most of us agree you should fight FOR your brother and his soul. He needs some redemption. I think most of us agree since your brother is vain and prideful and cares only what other people think about him or his position in society that he would be bothered by your negative opinion of him even if he didn't show it or argued against you. He loved the white girl at one time. Actually, you said he still does.

 

Have you heard your family members gripe and complain about how difficult it is for an Indian to immigrate into Canada or the USA? So much so that they connive and sneak and plan faked marriages or get Indians elected into office so they can figure out ways to get them in whatever way they can? Have you heard them complain about how hard it is?

 

If you have look at this from another perspective.

-They want into a western country.

-They don't like it when they aren't allowed or someone makes it difficult.

-They lie, sneak, connive to get their relatives in, they plan sham marriages as if it were honourable when it is not

 

But, difficult or not they were allowed and made it in. So, now what do Indians do?

-They form their own little country and shut white people out and call it a better place

-They make it impossible for a white person to EVER belong to their community

-they justify themselves, their racism, their prejudices, their bigotry, their segregation, and call it a better life.

 

If they don't like it when they are kept out.....why do they keep whites or other races and religions out of their own lives? They isolate themselves and call it better? They allowed them in, so now they look down on them.

 

Have you ever had something crawling on your skin like a bug you didn't like or some slimey creepy thing you didn't know what it was so you brushed or washed it off as you cringed? That is how your mom is acting. She acts like white people are going to contaminate her and her life. She joined into their country, now she wants to live apart? She wanted in, but now that she is in she is scared they will contaminate her.

 

Her fear isn't white people. Her fear is based on Indians. Just like others said in different ways...the nastiest and most feared of them all by her own admission are the Indians.

 

I like the Gandhi quotes. My family respects him. I liked the golden rule for Hinduism, and the scripture on equality. Thank you Karena for taking time to share them.

 

xxoo

[Karena]

Sadgati, Here is another article about bride burning. Take notice of what you were referring to where although the wife was abused; she still faces the shame, not the male who tried to burn and murder her; not the males family; not the in-laws who also participate in the murders.

 

Do you think this archaic practice would show the lower divorce statistics and arranged marriages as being happier or more successful or would they show it to be purely propaganda based on deceit and trickery with how they get those numbers? Clearly, divorce without shame should be an option. Note in 2001 "7,000 women were killed by husbands and in-laws " It says those numbers are INCREASING; which means it is becoming worse. It also states police can be indifferent and fail to investigate.

 

If Indians claim to marry family not just the wife; clearly they do not choose well; and they do not select their in-laws carefully as they would have you suppose.

 

I am now of the opinion that I agree with you Sadgati, all that matters to them is money, skin color, and a higher place in society, plus, someone to become their slave; oh, and let us make sure relatives and friends will ENVY them like one of you stated...;as to the rest of their arguments regarding arranged marriages or low divorce rates and how they are better; those are are all complete trickery and propaganda. (In Christianity, envy is also a sin; check out what your religion says.)

 

This article also doesn't mention all the women who are beaten and victims of other types of domestic violence or abuse by their Indian husbands or the in-laws. Also, how many women are murdered by other means or just mysteriously disappear?

 

As you also referred to Sadgati, the women who are victims still face ostracizm from their own families and societies if they report the crime; so how many go unreported?

 

Quote: "However, the victims after having survived the ordeal still face ostracization from families and society should they report the crime."

 

Also, the seven thousand women killed in just that one year period doesn't take into account the ones who are burned and survive. You realize three to five are taken to burn units DAILY in just ONE city. How many victims are there elsewhere in other cities?

 

"A women’s group located in Bangalore estimates that three to five women suffering from severe burn injuries are taken to a burns unit at Victoria City Hospital everyday. "

 

What sort of a "better society", or "better way of life" is it when they allow this to happen and then shame the victim...just so they can brag about a lower divorce rate they claim makes arranged marriages better than love marriages? I believe as you do Sadgati that the divorce is by far the lesser shame. This is evil in action. There is no excuse. For your parents to condone this knowing what might happen to their children; or to persecute them more after they have become a victim is wicked, evil and enabling.

 

You are correct Sadgati; having lived in India they would have heard about this or known about this. Yet, now they tell you marrying white would give them shame? I am completely disgusted. It appears they have a sick, twisted way of looking at things.

 

http://www.bhavakuta.com/india/society/bride-burning.html

 

Bride Burning

 

Dowry has been part of the Indian culture and tradition for years. When a Hindu girl gets married, parents give presents to the [bride and groom based on their social and financial position. The ancient concept was that the Hindu girl could not get part of the inheritance so the father would provide her material things in lieu. Over time concept of dowry has gotten distorted with the groom’s family making demand for lavish presents like cars, cash, house or gold. When the bride’s family is unable to satisfy these unreasonable demands, the in-laws can take the drastic step of dousing the girl with an inflammable liquid and setting her on fire. Husbands who indulge in this act of bride burning see it as a way of getting rid of their wives so that they can remarry for a bigger dowry.

 

India has a number of cases every year of bride burning. However, a lot of cases do not get reported to the police so an exact number can not be recorded. Invariably bride burning is disguised as a kitchen accident.

 

According to the Indian Penal Act, giving or asking dowry is prohibited. If anyone is reported, they can be arrested and tried under The Dowry Prohibition Act. According to Time Magazine the number of bride burning cases have increased from 400 in early 1980s to 5,800 in 1990s. It is not known whether the bride burning cases had increased or the number of police reports have increased.

[The Government of India is trying its best to curb the menace of bride burning. The police has set up offices for these cases across the country with special shelters and homes for the victims. However, the victims after having survived the ordeal still face ostracization from families and society should they report the crime.

 

A women’s group located in Bangalore estimates that three to five women suffering from severe burn injuries are taken to a burns unit at Victoria City Hospital everyday. According to the statistics released by the Government of India in 2001, 7,000 women were killed by husbands and in-laws because of less dowry or inability to pay more dowry.

Bride burning is a social stigma which India is trying hard to fight. However, women organizations claim that not enough is being done to protect women and women rights specially when witnesses can be intimidation or police are indifferent during investigating.

 

External References

• http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/3071963.stm
  
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_burning
  
• http://www.aarrgghh.com/no_way/hotBride.htm
  

Edited December 22, 2009 by Karena

[Reactant]

"You mentioned your brother would return this week as well as how abusive he was, so I hope all is well with you. I wondered what day your brother will return? Do I worry yet, or are there some worry free days ahead?"

 

 

>>>Some new developments:

 

My brother has arrived and finished law school, hes brought all his belongings home and my family is busy organizing the items. Recently, we've had many relatives visit to see my brother, so we all acted like we're one happy family in front of them.

 

In the Indian tradition, I'm told the relationship of the big brother's wife with the little brother wife is very important as she will be taking the custom roles of 'my best friend and older sister.' Yesterday, i had to meet her, spend time together and expected i give my blessings to my brother.

 

I cant really form an opinion of her having only known her for 2-3 hrs. She seems nice and wants to be friends. I can tell she cares for my brother and he showed some affection to her.

 

From what i recall, some people mentioned I should take it upon myself to try to show my brother his wrong doing and illustrate his true love who has always waited for him. I'm not sure if thats a good idea. I feel i can only tell him how i view the situation and illustrate reasons why. It is up to him if he wants to change and call his ex. I have no right in tainting his current relationship with the new Indian girl.

 

 

"Now, take a look at the "functional consequence" as you called it.

Now tell me why your mixed marriage would have such a tremendously nasty impact on your family which is so bad your relatives will be nasty to them, will pick on them, verbally abuse them, or look down on them, or their status will DROP, or they will be outcasts as if they committed adultery."

 

Your right it is down right racism. I forgot to mention one more potential cause (not trying to justify it, but worth mentioning). For over a hundred years, India was ruled by the British Empire. My parents grew up in a time when the British recently left India. The whole being slaves for hundred years left everyone with a sour view of the British and Caucasians in general. This is part of the reason why there is a huge negative reaction for me dating J who btw is british/french ancestry.

 

"There would be no functional consequence if she were brown would there? "

 

>>Well, in my parent's imaginary mind, i'm not suppose to be in any relationship with girls because they feel it will inhibit my studies. If it was a brown girl i would get scolded but nothing to this degree. Of course if J was a becoming a doctor, lawyer, pharm...they would be less hard on me.

 

"So, when you argue with your family, you might want to think about adding this to your argument."

 

Thank you, i have. I started making a document with a bunch of points you guys have mentioned, i recite it a few times. I found this post every help and have read it a bunch of times.

[Reactant]

 

 

 

"I think now is the time to worry Sparkling! The week is almost over. I think it is a bad sign he hasn't returned since he announced his abusive break 'em bro was returning. I wonder if his bro broke him too?"

Thank you for your concern, but i'm fine. Not much has been happening the home since my brother has come home. We have many relatives visiting and my uncle who lives with us has some days off from work. We never argue when hes in the house because my parents would never want him to know as he will tell his family.

 

The last thing my parents want is my relative knowing. So, as long as my uncle is at home, the longer there will be no fighting. I respect their request for privacy. When my relatives do find out, I will do my best to defend my decision and my family. However, i'm in the country between breaks in medschool. In the end they will schold my parents more and i'm not looking forward to that.

 

"I might put this message "FOR INDIANS ONLY, NO WHITE PEOPLE ALLOWED!" up outside on our front door if I could get the courage."

>>>The intersteing thing is my parents dont view themselves are racist. My mom proclaims she has many caucuasin friends at her work. My mom really disliked the home care indian nurse that came over to my house once because the quality of the care provided. Instead, my mom simply adores the usual caucasian home care nurse that visits everyday. They would often tell me they are not racist because of these examples.

 

 

". I just wanted to tell you that much as my heart would love to stand up for my family because I do love them I just can't. I just can't and live with myself because it is wrong."

>>> Sadgati, from what i understand you have a caucasian boyfriend and you havent told your parents? For the longest time i kept J a secret from them as well. J told me that i should tell my parents so they know the relationship isnt built on lies. This way it gives them time to adjust, fight, and eventually accept the new member rather than revealing them out of the blue marriage will occur. No one knows or understands your situation better than you do.

 

I dont know how my state would have been if i didnt come to this forum and read everyone's responses.

[Sadgati]

>>>The intersteing thing is my parents dont view themselves are racist. My mom proclaims she has many caucuasin friends at her work. My mom really disliked the home care indian nurse that came over to my house once because the quality of the care provided. Instead, my mom simply adores the usual caucasian home care nurse that visits everyday. They would often tell me they are not racist because of these examples.

 

Did you point out to her that having a caucasian friend to be nice to is one thing, but having that same caucasian friend enter the family she becomes a racist, bigot, segregationist and all of her prejudices come out? Don't feel offended mine are too.

 

>>> Sadgati, from what i understand you have a caucasian boyfriend and you havent told your parents?

They know, but I haven't said anything about the M word...marriage

 

 
In the Indian tradition, I'm told the relationship of the big brother's wife with the little brother wife is very important as she will be taking the custom roles of 'my best friend and older sister.' Yesterday, i had to meet her, spend time together and expected i give my blessings to my brother. 
I cant really form an opinion of her having only known her for 2-3 hrs. She seems nice and wants to be friends. I can tell she cares for my brother and he showed some affection to her. 

-Did you bless your brother?

-If you like the white girl better...SAY SO. Before it is too late. Your bro still loves the white one, so SPEAK UP.

-you said the brown girl acted as if she cared for him...but she has known him only a few times...so, didn't you feel your bro's ex white gf care for him too and loved him deeply..which I will point out is greater than a simple cared for.

-Did you feel your bro's white gf cared for your bro? You said she did.

-did your bros white gf care for you?

-was your bros white gf nice?

-You said she gave eight years of her life to your brother and got discarded only because of her skin colour. Don't you think all of those years were worth some sort of support from you? Or are you willing to quietly let your family abuse her like that?

-You are willing to give support now to a girl you say don't know...why not give support to the white one who stood by your bro?

-your family tainted your bros white gf's relationship with your brother, and they didn't care

-your family and bro are tainting your relationship with your white gf

-Isn't the white girl worth your efforts too? Or not? because she isn't brown and doesn't fall into the traditions they want us to play? -She is the one your family mistreated not this girl. This brown girl has their support.

-Your bro's white girlfriend doesn't have anybody from your family if she doesn't have you.

-your family cared absolutely nothing about if they tainted her (white girl) relationship with your brother just because she was white. She deserves some love and respect from someone in your family after the abuse she received from them.

-You would be telling the truth, not helping him lie

-you will be letting your brother lie to his brown gf, and God tells us not to lie so why would you want to help him lie? It isn't nice to her either.

-I think his white gf isn't asking you to do anything for her? So give her a blessing and a gift so she knows you fought for her no matter what. It will ease her heart Reactant to know someone in your family loved her and cared. It won't heal it from the hurt our brothers and parents put onto her, but it soothes it. I do feel ashamed of my family for what they did to my bro and his white gf. It was wrong. Now I feel ashamed for how they are treating a brown girl who will probably never know she is not the one he wanted or would choose if he had a real choice. She will always be second choice to my brother.

-My brother will be lying to this brown gf even as they have the wedding ceremony. So will your brother! Do you want that on your conscience? I don't. He will be lying to God.

-it is our parents who tainted the relationships, not us. We are trying to make them be put right before more people get hurt. They weren't tainted before our parents intruded into them. You are going to be trying to REMOVE their taint.

 

I also learned you don't ask your brother if they still love them, or hint about if they still love them, you say you KNOW they do and argue it back to them if they try to deny it...and tell them you are ashamed of them because after all, Indians care more about how they look to everyone than what is God's word. Your brother is like mine now, he has to pretend to accept it. I told my bro he can lie to our parents but I am not stupid and he can't make a fool out of me. Each thing he says to try to deny it I tell him God is watching him lie and he is ruining his soul, and he finally stops.

 

Does his new brown gf live near you?

 

From what i recall, some people mentioned I should take it upon myself to try to show my brother his wrong doing and illustrate his true love who has always waited for him. I'm not sure if thats a good idea. I feel i can only tell him how i view the situation and illustrate reasons why. It is up to him if he wants to change and call his ex. I have no right in tainting his current relationship with the new Indian girl. 

 

I am going to repeat this because I feel very strongly about it:

 

"You said she gave eight years of her life to your brother and got discarded only because of her skin colour and he still loves her. Don't you think all of those years she stuck by him were worth some sort of support from you? I hate to think you and I are not loyal at all to someone who has proven themself to be true. I hate to think you and I would let our families treat a white person like sh^^ just because their colour is wrong, or...that we would sit there and enable them to. I hate to think we would let our brothers sell out their souls without giving it a good fight.

 

You are willing to give your support now to a girl you say don't know??... why not give support to the white one who stood by your bro? Isn't she worth your efforts too? Or not? because she isn't brown and doesn't fall into the traditions they want us to play? She is the one your family abused and mistreated not this girl. This brown girl has their support. Your bro's white girlfriend doesn't have anybody from your family supporting her...NOT ONE PERSON if she doesn't have you." Did the white gf ever try to support you? My brother's did many times. Do I let her be stabbed in the back now?

 

 I feel i can only tell him how i view the situation and illustrate reasons why. It is up to him if he wants to change and call his ex. I have no right in tainting his current relationship with the new Indian girl. 

 

I will tell you why you need to do this.

-it would be a VERY bad idea not to for everyone involved

-since he loves his ex white gf, this is VERY wrong to do to your brother and his ex white girlfrend...it is against God

-his REASONS of self-martyrdom and pride for marrying her are wrong and against God

-since your bro loves his ex...and intends to marry this brown girl...it is VERY wrong to do to the brown girl too...and it is against God's teaching to choose one colour over another when God tells us all are equal

-You mentioned he was still in contact with his white gf and told her he loved her very recently, and didn't you say it was while he was with this brown girl?...and he still told the white gf she was the one he loved?

-if you want to follow God's laws and His will, you have to tell the truth, and you can't let your brother do this, you can't.

-You said he will be the most abusive of them all in your fight for freedom. So, you need to take him down...so to speak.

-You need to fight him hardest of all because if you make your parents realize what they have done to him by using her, it will make things better for you.

-In his argument to you against marrying white girls, he basically admitted it to you himself he was only doing this so he wouldn't shame your parents with a white girl....and he would rather die than shame them. So even with his argument against you it is obvious why he chose to do this whether he denies it or not. He said he is doing it so he won't shame his parents.

He just shamed all of you by throwing away a white gf because of colour, and that would be according to God's law he is going against God, not mine.

-he is the key to your success

-if you don't fight him as hard as he intends to fight you...he may break you

-you need to go on the attack....ATTACK, so you aren't always on defense

-Since your parents put themselves BEFORE their own sons...MAKE THEM FEEL AS GUILTY as you can for what they did to your older brother. Don't make it easy on them.

-You are going to have to go after your brother or he will abuse you and try to break you... ATTACK FIRST.

-You can't win this unless you go on the attack. I think you know it. Make them play defense for a change.

-why make it so easy for them to treat someone so badly like this?

 

I would like to know how you personally felt about his ex white girlfriend. Did you like her or did you not like her? I got the feeling you did because she was talking to you and you seemed to say nice things about her when we compared brother's white girlfriends. Like I said, my whole family liked my brother's white girlfriend UNTIL the M word was mentioned. Then storms grew in my house, and my brother went down for the knockout. He is a wimp IMHO. I can't respect him now and I told him so. I look at him and he disgusts me, and so do they.

 

You said your mom said she likes white people...UNTIL they want to be part of your family. Or IF they don't have the same religion...then she becomes the bigot and a segregationist. She was calling all priests crooks. What she is doing is nasty to everyone Reactant. I don't think I have ever heard my mom call any priest of any religion all crook...but, you never know maybe before all of this is over she will.

 

One other thing besides if you liked the white ex gf or not....

you mentioned your dad knew about your brothers white gf when you said about your brother fought with your dad for her? So, they knew about her already?

 

Now my story update if you want to hear it. I was sick. I was tired. I was hearing my parents go on and on about my bro's brown girl and how proud he made them CHOOSING her, and HOW GOOD they will look to our relatives....as if he had any choice since they convinced him their lives were at stake... and they would die a slow painful death if he married a white girl... Ok, they didn't say that exactly about dying a slow painful death, but they did say their lives would be over, you know..the usual, when they want to guilt you into losing your free will.... He was a coward. They are cowards. Hey, I am going to use that exaggeration and do the satire thing because it does come close to what they say about their lives being over. (You say you will die a slowwwwwwww painful death if my brother marries a white girl, and your lives will alll l be over because you are scared to stand up against evil relatives who will abuse you....how can I respect you or be proud of you?)

 

Well, as I was laying on the sofa hearing them brag about how great they were and not seeing the evil in what they were doing, suddenly, I just felt this calm come over me and it may sound strange but I felt God was with me. After reading what these arranged marriages do to women, how they get burned and blamed and all they go through over and over plus, it said there are seven thousand who are murdered by being burned, more are burned and don't die, and more still are attacked in other ways and how burning wives is increasing not slowing down...and they get blamed and shamed for being burned. ..

 

I spoke up. I knew it was the right thing to do no matter what. Arranged marriages are wrong. Forcing them to stay in an arranged marriage is wrong. I figure if I get kicked out of the family or ignored, then I am smart and can make my own way. If having a non-racist opinion is something to be kicked out of a family for then I don't want to be part of a family like that. I want to follow Gods law not theirs. Arranged marriages aren't a law or religion anyway, they just force them off on you.

 

So, I told my parents and brother last night I am ashamed of them for their racist attitudes toward white people being in our family. I said a lot of my Indian friends have no morals and no values and get drunk, smoke weed, break the laws, lie to their parents, have sex. I said I have a lot of white friends who don't do any of those things, and they attend their churches and help out old people and everything I could think of.

 

I said my brother's white girlfriend was nicer than any of them and all you (parents and bro) cared about was money, social status, religion and the colour of their skin. I said since God sees what they are doing, he is going to be ashamed of them too. I said if our relatives are so low down dirty they throw all that love away just because we have a white girl in the family and will treat you like trash, then they are mean contemptible people and I don't want them in my life either and we are better off rid of them.

 

I told them they are trying to ruin my brother's life making him marry a brown girl when he still loves his white girlfriend. My brother denied it, so I told him he was a liar and God tells us to tell the truth like Gandhi did, and if he doesn't stop lying about it just to make our racist parents happy he will be doing wrong against God.

 

I guess I shocked them all because they didn't say much like I expected them to. They were mad, but shocked and didn't react quickly. I was told I was being disrespectful to my mother, and I said I am learning how to by watching all of you as you are setting an example for me. Your disrespect to his white girlfriend just because she was white is evil working inside you. I said if you are so worried about what our relatives will say, then you better worry about what I will say too because they are behaving in a way that goes against the teachings of God where everyone is equal, even women. I said it is better to please God than our relatives just for your own pride or social status you get for yourself by using my bro and his happiness just to make you look good. I said pride is a sin, envy is a sin and you sin when you do this. I said GOD comes first.

 

I just spilled it all out attacking them. I didn't yell, but I did show contempt and I spoke firmly. I used my brother because he is the one who is closer to marrying a brown girl when he loves another.

 

Then I said I would be proud to have my bro's white gf as my sister because she was one of the nicest persons I had ever met, but I am not proud of them and their sick values. I told them I never thought I would see a time when they shame me as much as they do now, and I walked out and went to my room. For the first time in years, I felt proud of myself. Like a giant weight lifted from me and it felt good.

One thing I figured out that might help you having watched my brother. When he was on the defensive and trying to be polite and respectful to them...they USED that as his greatest weakness like the loop hole in his armour. You have to attack and I don't mean scream but be very firm. You have to intimidate them some to be heard.

I thought it would be harder, but suddenly I knew what I was doing was right.

 

I decided anything they said to me I was going to tell them they should follow God's law and what our relatives tell us to do isn't what God tells us to do. I think all those murdered women made me feel stronger. They are in a loveless vile marriages and forced to stay in it. The arranged marriags where you barely know someone should never NEVER take place. If you marry the family and they pick so well for us, why are so many thousands of women being murdered and burned alive by angry husbands?

 

I don't want to see that happen to my brother. You can see how angry and frustrated people are in them that they kill someone to get out. I told them divorce is less shameful than what they are doing.

 

I know I did the right thing.

 

I am still sick but will try to check back here soon.

 

Oh, one more thing. you keep saying "in the Indian tradition I am told" or something similar...... remember it is mans tradition not Gods.

[Sadgati]

Your right it is down right racism. I forgot to mention one more potential cause (not trying to justify it, but worth mentioning). For over a hundred years, India was ruled by the British Empire. My parents grew up in a time when the British recently left India. The whole being slaves for hundred years left everyone with a sour view of the British and Caucasians in general. This is part of the reason why there is a huge negative reaction for me dating J who btw is british/french ancestry.

P.S.

-Then why do they like and value lighter skin so much when they choose a marriage partner? It is on "THE INFAMOUS LIST" of profitable matches. I think they like that BECAUSE the British ruled and it was a sign of being more powerful.

-Is your brothers white gf British?

-India has been ruled by lots of different countries

-parent's lists of hates grows longer.

 

Quick question. Maybe this is just the girl in me thing. Which girl is prettier in your eyes, the brown one or the white one. Odd question I know, I know, I know...just curious.

 

I was in bed and got up to say one more thing. I was just thinking about your brother, and as I passed mine in the hallway on my way to bed I told my brother flat out that his white gf was my sister and I loved her best. I told him he can't take away all of those years she was there for me away and have me ignore her. He told me they would be married and I gave my heart to her as my sister and my sister-in-law. He looked down and couldn't meet my eyes.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Sadgati

[TMichaels]

Sadgati,

 

Have you tried using the quoting function that works in this forum that I explained a few pages back? Using it instead of whatever one you are now using would make your posts more readable.

 

Also, using boldface throughout your posts "sounds" like you are shouting all the time; it's also hard on the eyes.

 

Just a couple of suggestions that would make it easier for you and others...

 

Best,

TMichaels

[Sparkling]

Thank you for your concern, but i'm fine. Not much has been happening the home since my brother has come home. We have many relatives visiting and my uncle who lives with us has some days off from work. We never argue when hes in the house because my parents would never want him to know as he will tell his family.

 

The last thing my parents want is my relative knowing. So, as long as my uncle is at home, the longer there will be no fighting. I respect their request for privacy. When my relatives do find out, I will do my best to defend my decision and my family. However, i'm in the country between breaks in medschool. In the end they will schold my parents more and i'm not looking forward to that.

 

 

>>>The intersteing thing is my parents dont view themselves are racist. My mom proclaims she has many caucuasin friends at her work. My mom really disliked the home care indian nurse that came over to my house once because the quality of the care provided. Instead, my mom simply adores the usual caucasian home care nurse that visits everyday. They would often tell me they are not racist because of these examples.

 

 

>>> Sadgati, from what i understand you have a caucasian boyfriend and you havent told your parents? For the longest time i kept J a secret from them as well. J told me that i should tell my parents so they know the relationship isnt built on lies. This way it gives them time to adjust, fight, and eventually accept the new member rather than revealing them out of the blue marriage will occur. No one knows or understands your situation better than you do.

 

I dont know how my state would have been if i didnt come to this forum and read everyone's responses.

 

 

Sadgati,

 

Well done! What you did took a lot of courage. Far more courage than continuing to go on with this sham of a wedding. You showed a tremendous amount of love for your brother and for a white girl the rest of your family dismissed ONLY due to being the wrong color. You showed a love of God and his laws!

 

Karena,

You raised some very valid points, and it was good to see some statistics however heartbreaking. The religious quotes are similar in every religion and it was interesting to read.

 

Reactant,

I am a Christian and this is our holidays. Today is Christmas Eve Day so I am busy with holiday preparations to celebrate the birth of Christ. My house is filled with people, but I am going to sit down here and write you. Are you feeling better now?

 

Be very careful about giving your blessing to your brother. If I were you, I would not give it at all.

 

If you give this blessing knowing the truth and reasons for the wedding, and the reasons behind the relationship, and the true damage that has been done to the white girlfriends AND to your brother, you need to realize what it means you will be doing. When you cast out a person due to their color only, it is very wrong. It is cruel. I can't justify how your family treats women and their children like they are only property to be bargained off or discarded because they aren't the right color.

 

Be very careful about giving your blessing. Giving your 'blessing' is more than just a word. It means you are going to consecrate them and make it holy by religious rite; in heavenly bliss. You will be sanctifying it. You will be making it sacred, or dedicated to sacred uses, or reverend. Sanctify means something sacred or holy. Holy means of the "highest spiritual purity", "saintly", godly, pure, angelic, righteous, etc.

 

Do you really consider this potential union sacred or holy? Or of God? angelic? pure? righteous? in heavenly bliss?

 

You say you can't get to know this girl in a couple of hours, but you also say that is about the amount of time your brother has spent with her. The white girl spent what? eight years or more?

 

I have to admit, I am curious about some of the same things Sadgati is regarding the white girl and hope you take time to answer.

 

I also agree with Sadgati regarding the fact your parents intruded into your brother's relationships they had chosen for themselves. They did deliberately taint them and they deliberately set out to destroy them, and they caused your brother to feel deep shame (so much that he would rather die...that is pretty deep shame they forced off onto him) just as they are trying to do to you.

 

Those girls gave years of their lives to your brothers, and now that it appears their careers are about to be launched, they get discarded because of their color...., and ta duh!!! the brown girl enters the picture to reap all of the rewards of their hard work.

 

These white girls loved your brothers before they had big fancy careers. They loved them when they had nothing of their own. You know their hearts were not there for your brothers out of greed but because they genuinely loved your brothers with all of their hearts.

 

You know the only reason the brown girl was placed with your brother or is even with him at all now was because of greed, money and what she and her parents could gain from him in status and wealth. Both of you repeated that fact over and over again.

 

If that money and status disappeared tomorrow, the brown girl would be gone too. Her parents wouldn't let her stay either. She would be history.

 

The white girl stuck with him...loved him...even though he discarded her at the last minute..she told you she still loves him and always will. She must be suffering deeply inside. I would be. You certainly would be, just look at what you are going through now. How can you dismiss what is happening to her, (white girlfriend) what she is going through?, or shrug and look away? Or give a blessing to those who did this to her? Those who, your parents and your brother, treated her as a lesser human being? Those who discarded her into the trash? You will now give them your blessing after what they did to her?

 

Isn't there any guilt inside your family or has greed driven it all out?

 

You do know if your brother had darker skin and no money their parents would never have put them together. You do know if your brother had nothing, this brown girl would not be there because her parents and their brown daughter would have felt your brother was beneath him just as your own parents would have felt about her if she had nothing. The ONLY reason she is marrying him is because of greed. She may think he is nice, but without being able to gain monetarily, she would be gone. You have said these are their reasons for being put together over and over. So, listen to what you are saying.

 

Is this a reason to bless them?

 

I view it as Sadgati does. You are trying to remove the taint your parents and other Indian families put onto those girls. Since neither white girl did anything to warrant being treated like excess garbage , and the only reason this happened to them was for being the wrong color, if you bless this.., would it be the truth before God? holy? pure? How will God look at you? Remember, those white girls were NOT the intruders in the relationship. Your parents place the brown girls into it as the intruders.

 

I believe your brother will be acting out a role now too..forever in God's watchful eyes. He will lie before God. He is marrying for social status for his parents. I think Sadgati nailed it. She said his arguments to you about the reasons for marrying brown were so your parents wouldn't be shamed..showed exactly why he was going to marry brown even though he loved the white girl.

 

He told you he would rather die than cause them shame, which is very extreme and dramatic under the circumstances, also disturbing. He said he was still in love with the white girl, but marrying the brown one so as not to shame your parents? If there is any doubt, it would be proven by his reasons and arguments he used against you for marrying white. He is still in love with the white girl.

 

If you marry white after he gave his gf up. He will feel guilty. He only cares about not feeling guilty and he wants you to do what he is doing.

 

I hope you choose not to bless this marriage of your brother before God. Keep your faith.

 

Also remember just because they tell you it is a tradition, that doesn't make it a good one. One of those articles said it used to be a tradition in India to have the widowed wife throw herself onto the funeral pyre as her husbands body was being burned. I read more about this elsewhere and if she refused they forcibly threw her on to be burned alive. So, you see she really had no choice. The men didn't want her to live on or find someone else to be with after they died so they had her burned.

 

You really should think it through some of those traditions however small or however large to see what harm they actually cause or what the reasoning is behind them.

 

The arranged marriages were to keep the castes separate, and greed. Are segregation and greed good reasons to continue this custom or tradition?

 

Be careful about doing something traditional or because it is custom just because they tell you to. Think it through. Some traditions should be gotten rid of. Always look to see if it is the will of God or the will of man.

 

Good luck, and Merry Christmas

 

Stand firm!

 

Sadgati, bold face doesn't bother me. If you used all caps that would convey shouting to me. Get well soon!

[Island Girl]

Sadgati, bold face doesn't bother me. If you used all caps that would convey shouting to me. Get well soon!

 

It is listed in LoveShack forum guidelines not to bold entire posts but only for emphasis of specific points as well as to use paragraphs. It makes it easier for the reader.

 

There is quite a bit of information to digest in this thread. People have put quite a lot of time, effort, and thought into this. It is amazing to see such outreach to a poster who needs help.

 

Now I have to go read through them again. LOL

[Sparkling]

It is listed in LoveShack forum guidelines not to bold entire posts but only for emphasis of specific points as well as to use paragraphs. It makes it easier for the reader.

 

There is quite a bit of information to digest in this thread. People have put quite a lot of time, effort, and thought into this. It is amazing to see such outreach to a poster who needs help.

 

Now I have to go read through them again. LOL

 

 

Thank you. As I looked back through I see this is the only one she did it on. But, I noticed I was guilty of doing it on one of my comments further back as well. I was responding to a long list of things on that one and the bolder print made it easier on me. So, sorry.

 

I see you are right about the time and effort people put into this. For me, it was about an issue far greater than the normal one where someone is far away and I am sad or.....,

 

My mother always reminded me of that quote Edmund Burke once said, "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

 

She said you can't make or force a person's choice for themselves, but you can make them think about it.

[Reactant]

Hey everyone,

 

Sorry for the delay in my replies. I've gotten very very sick the past few days. I developed an infection and fever. I eventually had to go to the hospital because i wasnt able to keep anything i drunk down.

 

I'm doing a bit better now and can drink a little. My parents had been very supportive and we havent had much fights in our home since i returned from the hospital. It seems they completely put J aside and are focused on me getting better, which is what they were suppose to do all this time!

 

Before i got worse, my family had a long fight with me. I was in my room and my brother called me to come out. I enter my parents master bedroom and there was the entire family sitting and ready to start an 'intervention'. Now it was my brothers turn to knock sense into me. Its been awhile since this day but i'm going to try my best to recall what he and my parents said.

 

This time they tried a different approach, they attacked on areas besides her race.

 

-They attacked on an incident where i had gone out to be with friends and J before i had my surgery. They needed to contact me but they couldnt so they ended up trying to call J (her cell phone was off) and then her parents. Her parents were very rude to them and now they are asserting that her family is a terrible family to associate with. My dad says once u marry the girl u marry the family and my family doesnt want anything to do with them.

 

-Eventually i got them to admit the core issue on all of their dislikes of her is a race issue. They went on to state all cultures and religions are racist. My brother brought up the example of when there were theories about Jesus Christ potentially being darker skin and not a Caucasian suddenly there was uproar from Caucasian community who didnt want to worship someone non-white.

 

-When i read quotes from The Bhagavad Gita (the Hindu religious text), my brother casted aside any quotes. He said i'm only using the Gita to suit my purposes. He said that there must be quotes in there about parents should being equivalent to God.(We've been told by pundaths (Hindu priests) that we should see our parents as equivalent to Gods as they have given us birth.)

He went on to say that i should first read the entire Gita (which u knows icant do in a matter of days) before i start quoting it as i can prove anything this way.

 

-Since my brother has decided to have an engagement ceremony with this new girl, my mom conveniently stated that if my brother wanted to marry his old caucasian girlfriend they would now say yes. My brother looked at me and said he wouldnt do that cuz it could never work alluding to cultural differences.

 

-I explained that although my family has met her for 5 mins and said hi(this was at the time period when my parents didnt know about us) that they didnt really have a real conversation with her. I explained before they start judging they should have an actual conversation with her. My brother denied, he said he saw enough and went so far to guaranteed me that they will never get used to her. That she is never welcome in this home.

 

-My parents were standing at this point and said 'how can we stay with you when your with her? U cant take care of us.' My brother folded his arms and said 'dont worry you can stay with me, my door is always open.' I protested and said i never was kicking my parents out of my life, that i always promised them that i want to take care of them. My brother explained that by taking her in my side, i kicked and slapped my parents out of my life.

 

-I told them how ridiculous our culture is that one Caucasian girl can have such a huge impact on the family that all the relatives and friends will lose respect for them. My brother agreed but said something along the lines ' what are you going do? Do u think God has sent you down here and fix everything? That you are some kind of hero? Nothings going to change, no one is going to see or understand your message. U wanna fix this culture? start finding another culture that has no racism. You will single handedly bring this entire family to shame. Our parents only get a few days off a year and I hope your happy because u ruined our Christmas.'

 

 

This is all that i can remember of what they said. My parents still are sad and once and a while my mom would throw in hurtful side comments under her breath. I'm sorry i havent replied to all the previous messages. I have saved where i left off in Karena's post reply and will post a reply soon.

[Sadgati]

Hey everyone,

 

Sorry for the delay in my replies. I've gotten very very sick the past few days. I developed an infection and fever. I eventually had to go to the hospital because i wasnt able to keep anything i drunk down.

 

I'm doing a bit better now and can drink a little. My parents had been very supportive and we havent had much fights in our home since i returned from the hospital. It seems they completely put J aside and are focused on me getting better, which is what they were suppose to do all this time!

 

Before i got worse, my family had a long fight with me. I was in my room and my brother called me to come out. I enter my parents master bedroom and there was the entire family sitting and ready to start an 'intervention'. Now it was my brothers turn to knock sense into me. Its been awhile since this day but i'm going to try my best to recall what he and my parents said.

 

This time they tried a different approach, they attacked on areas besides her race.

 

-They attacked on an incident where i had gone out to be with friends and J before i had my surgery. They needed to contact me but they couldnt so they ended up trying to call J (her cell phone was off) and then her parents. Her parents were very rude to them and now they are asserting that her family is a terrible family to associate with. My dad says once u marry the girl u marry the family and my family doesnt want anything to do with them.

 

-Eventually i got them to admit the core issue on all of their dislikes of her is a race issue. They went on to state all cultures and religions are racist. My brother brought up the example of when there were theories about Jesus Christ potentially being darker skin and not a Caucasian suddenly there was uproar from Caucasian community who didnt want to worship someone non-white.

 

-When i read quotes from The Bhagavad Gita (the Hindu religious text), my brother casted aside any quotes. He said i'm only using the Gita to suit my purposes. He said that there must be quotes in there about parents should being equivalent to God.(We've been told by pundaths (Hindu priests) that we should see our parents as equivalent to Gods as they have given us birth.)

He went on to say that i should first read the entire Gita (which u knows icant do in a matter of days) before i start quoting it as i can prove anything this way.

 

-Since my brother has decided to have an engagement ceremony with this new girl, my mom conveniently stated that if my brother wanted to marry his old caucasian girlfriend they would now say yes. My brother looked at me and said he wouldnt do that cuz it could never work alluding to cultural differences.

 

-I explained that although my family has met her for 5 mins and said hi(this was at the time period when my parents didnt know about us) that they didnt really have a real conversation with her. I explained before they start judging they should have an actual conversation with her. My brother denied, he said he saw enough and went so far to guaranteed me that they will never get used to her. That she is never welcome in this home.

 

-My parents were standing at this point and said 'how can we stay with you when your with her? U cant take care of us.' My brother folded his arms and said 'dont worry you can stay with me, my door is always open.' I protested and said i never was kicking my parents out of my life, that i always promised them that i want to take care of them. My brother explained that by taking her in my side, i kicked and slapped my parents out of my life.

 

-I told them how ridiculous our culture is that one Caucasian girl can have such a huge impact on the family that all the relatives and friends will lose respect for them. My brother agreed but said something along the lines ' what are you going do? Do u think God has sent you down here and fix everything? That you are some kind of hero? Nothings going to change, no one is going to see or understand your message. U wanna fix this culture? start finding another culture that has no racism. You will single handedly bring this entire family to shame. Our parents only get a few days off a year and I hope your happy because u ruined our Christmas.'

 

 

This is all that i can remember of what they said. My parents still are sad and once and a while my mom would throw in hurtful side comments under her breath. I'm sorry i havent replied to all the previous messages. I have saved where i left off in Karena's post reply and will post a reply soon.

 

Hi, I am sorry. I have been sick too.

Now you see why you can't bless your brother's engagement and how he is the one you have to go after don't you? I am mad..., very mad and very sad. So what I say now I am still saying in the mad stage, first impression.

 

When they do this, why don't you attack them and tell them how they are acting just like the relatives they are so AFRAID OF by abusing you. Use the word abuse. Shame them Reactant, you don't really have an option at this point since they won't listen to logic, they won't listen to scripture.

 

Do you know that Hinduism text is so massive that NOBODY has read it all? Did you know that it also contradicts itself? If you read the history of it, part is wonderous part is NASTY and they condone raping, part is teaching. Your brother will be trying to look up scriptures about your parents now to use against you. Stick to the love, equal, respect and the others and tell him you can't deny the basics...TRUTH!!! NOT TO HURT ANYONE. HELP EVERYONE. They ARE hurting people. And why is it so frigging wrong of her parents to be rude to them when they are being so rude to her and her parents? Why would they treat them respectfully when they aren't treating their daughter respectfully? They are being racist, bigots!

 

Your bro is the one conveniently dismissing the scriptures..., not you. He is also NOT SPEAKING THE TRUTH!!

 

I would confront your mom too because she conveniently said that he could marry his old gf...and you could say how is this any different than you marrying your white gf?

 

You CAN NOT bless your brother? I am afraid you blessed them..PLEASE say you didn't bless them. Your brother is living a LIE..., HE CAN'T DENY THE SCRIPTURES.

You know what I would do? I would tell the brown girl he is marrying her for his parents, but he is in love with someone else.

 

Did you notice your brother said he can't..not that he didn't want to marry her, his ex white gf?? That is pretty telling isn't it? He still loves her. We were right.

 

If they admitted the racism...FINALLY, then they are also still admitting it against the ex gf too. So, why did they finally say the white girl would be acceptable to marry now? Are they saying the racism suddenly disappeared or suddenly they won't be yelled at by relatives?...what happened to that argument they so forcibly gave you for why you can't marry brown?

 

I would hammer the racism...tell them they shame you. over and over again...You have to.

 

At least you made some progress Reactant because they admitted their racism.

 

Your brother sucks big time you know that don't you? Mine finally admitted to me yesterday he loves his white gf....but ...........

 

Could you say to your bro at least I am brave enough to stand by the woman I love, you are a COWARD and left yours!?? Shame him for what he is doing.

 

You parents and brother are wrong...WRONG. My brother's white girlfriend who is Christian BOUGHT a black..what is it they are called? Where Joseph and Mary are in the stable scene with baby Jesus and the wise men? I should know the name of it ...MANGER SCENE?? She bought one in black on purpose.

 

Tell him he is wrong. It is NOT true all religions are racist...because people make up religions, AND there will be SOME PEOPLE within each religion BUT NOT ALL PEOPLE ARE RACIST IN EACH RELIGION. But, no matter, how does that justify HIS racism? How does that justify your parents racism? He is basically saying if everyone else can be racist it is ok for him to be too...AND IT IS NOT!!!

 

There are a lot of wonderful people in the world who are not racist...my brother's white gf is one. Was your brother's white girlfriend racist? I don't think so or she wouldn't have wanted to marry your brother, NOR would he at one point in time. SHE didn't break up with him remember..he was the racist one who broke it off with her.

 

REMIND THEM it is GOD you are supposed to be following or have they forgotten? Each time they pray they are dirtying up their relationship with God. If they don't intend to treat everyone as equals then they might as well give up on the hypocrisy of pretending to be religious and pray.

 

SOOOOOO there are people within those cultures who are racist, but there are lots of people within those cultures who are NOT racist. Their argument doesn't even merit any logic. It is just an excuse to be racist and they are saying everyone is racist. That isn't true, and that doesn't justify it. By your brothers logic, they could call all other religions or cultures crooks or rapists because some within all of those racists lie or rape. But, not all of them do, only a small part. So, are they advocating they all be crooks and rapists and it is ok since some within all cultures do those horrible things? The logic is the same. If you look at your brother's argument. Replace one of his words with another such as racist with murder and you will see his argument is full of hot air.

 

 

By the way, I will bet you your brother's ex wouldn't have cared how Jesus was portrayed because a lot of people who are white that I know didn't care. It is what He represented as God's son that is important, not his skin color. Your brother is the one who takes something out of nowhere and dramatizes it. Does he have any realization as to how dramatic he sounds? Get down to earth man.......... He puts all races and all cultures into one tiny bundle and says they all fit the same, and they DON'T. He is lying to you. I am not racist, I have a white boyfriend. I see good and bad in all religions including my own, and for that matter, didn't Gandhi too? He questioned some about ours.

 

I just called my white girlfriend and my white boyfriend, and they both told me their parents didn't care what color HE is....they asked them for me. He was persecuted and died on the cross to save them from their sins...and more I don't remember.

 

You seriously need to attack your brother, you really do. Tell him you won't bless this marriage because they have tainted it with their lies.

 

BTW...So, his white girlfriend they don't have anything against and NOW would allow it? This is interesting. Call your brother a coward!!

I would call their bluff. Tell them to tell /order your brother it is ok then and he doesn't need to sacrifice himself for them anymore. If they think it would be ok......order him to marry the girl he loves. Sort of a put up or shut up kind of deal. Tell them to not allow him to go through with this farce of a marriage. Tell them to care about how they treated their own son that they would allow him to do this. Tell them you don't respect him because now they will sit there and let him go through with this sham of a marriage for selfish reasons. Tell them you don't respect them for encouraging him and letting him do this....preach about how you don't respect them anymore, and you can't trust someone who would sit there and lie, or allow their own son to lie before God.

 

Remember, there probably are some people who are prejudiced in each religion but not all by far. That doesn't excuse your own family being racist. It doesn't. Basically, they are saying since someone else is racist, that gives them the right to be racist as if it is ok. No matter who is racist, it is wrong, and they don't follow God when they treat someone different because of it.

 

Tell your brother he has BEEN BRAINWASHED because you USED to respect him and now you do NOT...and see how he reacts. I think at this point you need to push about how you don't respect any of them anymore. They shame you, ......and go with that.

 

Hope you feel better soon. I feel for you.

 

PLEASEEEEEEEE DON'T BLESS HIS MARRIAGE........PLEASEEEEEEEEE TELL ME YOU DIDN'T.

 

I am fighting my own family and some works and some doesn't. But, YOU made some progress and I made a little bit. You said before they didn't admit to racism, now they do...keep pushing!!!

 

P.S. Again, tell them you don't see how her parents being rude to them since they are so disrespectful to their daughter is any different from the way they are behaving. Tell them they are behaving worse than her parents, and your parents were rude first. REmind them they say terrible things about their daughter/your girlfriend.

 

I know this is all over the place, but I am sick and now I am angry for you.

 

Your dad keeps saying that marrying the family bit...HA!! So, he would be among the ones who make the girl feel shamed if someone beats them or burns them? If it is the family, why don't they check it out more carefully before they push their daughters off onto someone.

 

I am more curious than ever about your brothers white gf. Your family can't find anything bad to say about her that now they would allow it?

 

I still think I would say to your parents if that is true and they know he loves another then how can you ever respect that they will sit there and give him their blessings to marry a brown girl and lie to her and leave the white girl hurt?? I definitely would tell them you don't respect them. I am sorry I am all over the place but I am still sick and don't want to take more time to edit.

 

Good luck.

 

Hey, I started to post this, and I thought about a few issues as my anger is smoldering now and not quite so flammable.

 

-about the incident where they tried to get ahold of you and couldn't...all kids mess up or do something wrong, and I am sure your brother also has so are they going to hold a grudge all the rest of their lives? I know there are also times I tried to reach my parents and their cell was off and I didn't know exactly where they were. Or I would come home from school and nobody would be home and they didn't leave a note. It happens. To everyone. Your family is grasping now at straws.

 

-I already stated my view on his objections about religions because he said ALL religions and cultures are racist...While it is true there are some PEOPLE within them who are, NOT ALL PEOPLE IN the religion or culture are racist. That is why you get mixed marriages...DUH! Look at you. You are part of a culture and you are not racist. Look at his white girlfriend. She wasn't racist. Your parents and brother are. Do you feel pity for your brother? He makes me angry and at the same time I think how sick he is inside to have all that twisted bitterment inside him. God doesn't tell us to hate, and he is very hateful.

 

-about your bro and the religious quotes dismissal. If parents are equivilent to God, they would be his equals and they would be PERFECT right? Isn't God supposed to be all knowing and perfect? Your parents sure aren't. It isn't intended that way, IF indeed it actually says that. You should check it out. Also, God isn't racist. God tells us to harm noone. How can your bro dismiss those?

 

-about the taking care of your parents and your brother's arrogance and belittlement toward you. They are trying to use guilt tactics on you again. Tell them you invited them and if they choose not to stay with you that is their decision not yours. Ask them if all they care about is themselves? They don't care what they have done to their oldest son, they don't care what they do to you, they don't care what they did to his white gf. They are selfish and don't care about anyone but themselves.

I would tell them they make you sick how they changed the heart of their oldest son into this monster. You are ashamed of them.

(they are being so dramatic and childish it makes me think you are the adult....your brother is an actor. He likes the drama. He likes feeling better than you.)

 

-and this..., "-Since my brother has decided to have an engagement ceremony with this new girl, my mom conveniently stated that if my brother wanted to marry his old caucasian girlfriend they would now say yes. My brother looked at me and said he wouldnt do that cuz it could never work alluding to cultural differences.".......makes my stomach churn.

 

.....call him a coward... a miserable excuse of a coward. He is hiding and scared and you can't respect him anymore. Since you can't respect him nothing which comes out of his mouth is worthy of respect or kindness or decency so his word is worthless to your ears. He is hiding behind the skirts of a brown girl he wants to USE for his convenience. All the nasty things he has said to you...put in reverse and say to him.

 

-tell your parents you will never respect him or your brother again if they allow him to marry this brown girl. You don't have much choice anymore. Logic, scriptures, love...so shame them back.

 

Hey, about the cultural differences....., ask what would be the problem. You know the white gf, so she was willing to do what it took right? So, what is the problem? Is he going to hide forever behind the brown girl because he isn't man enough to stand up for the girl he loves? Also, arranged marriages don't work either...and they are of the same culture. Some do, most don't but they can't get out.

 

Did he admit he loved the white girl? I think you are going to have to shame them back, and it is unfortunate but you made progress when you did and finally got them to admit to something.

 

When is your bros engagement? I really would sabotage it...tell them you won't attend, tell them your brother is a jerk for marrying someone he doesn't love just to please them, or they are horrible parents for letting him do this knowing the truth. It is hard isn't it....... but the only way you have made any headway was when you attacked back.

 

My prayers go with you.

 

Ok, I thought of one more, Your brother said: "My brother agreed but said something along the lines ' what are you going do? Do u think God has sent you down here and fix everything? That you are some kind of hero? Nothings going to change, no one is going to see or understand your message"

 

Tell him Yes, one man can accomplish a lot. You can take a man like Hitler and see what one man can do to make things worse. Or you can take a man like the Dalai Lama, or Gandhi (and those are just two examples out of many) and see again what one man can do to help make things better. You can tell him you choose to try to make things better and he is a defeatest who doesn't have the courage or moral fiber to stand up for what is right. And when people with great courage like the Dalai Lama or Gandhi, get support like they did from other people out of respect for the courage they showed trying to change things and right the wrongs...then the love spreads and changes come. Slowly maybe, but they come.

Tell him........ YES, one man can do a lot to bring about change!!. If I were you, I would tell him you would rather die trying than sit there and hide from it like he is doing. You can tell him you would rather die trying than hide away and end up dying like a coward behind a brown girl like he is just because he is scared of relatives within his own culture. hey culture rhymes with vultures..., they are sitting there waiting to pick us clean like vultures.

 

Ok, I am tired and sick, and saying silly things. but vultures within our culture fits.

[Sparkling]

Hey everyone,

 

Sorry for the delay in my replies. I've gotten very very sick the past few days. I developed an infection and fever. I eventually had to go to the hospital because i wasnt able to keep anything i drunk down.

 

I'm doing a bit better now and can drink a little. My parents had been very supportive and we havent had much fights in our home since i returned from the hospital. It seems they completely put J aside and are focused on me getting better, which is what they were suppose to do all this time!

 

Before i got worse, my family had a long fight with me. I was in my room and my brother called me to come out. I enter my parents master bedroom and there was the entire family sitting and ready to start an 'intervention'. Now it was my brothers turn to knock sense into me. Its been awhile since this day but i'm going to try my best to recall what he and my parents said.

 

This time they tried a different approach, they attacked on areas besides her race.

 

-They attacked on an incident where i had gone out to be with friends and J before i had my surgery. They needed to contact me but they couldnt so they ended up trying to call J (her cell phone was off) and then her parents. Her parents were very rude to them and now they are asserting that her family is a terrible family to associate with. My dad says once u marry the girl u marry the family and my family doesnt want anything to do with them.

 

-Eventually i got them to admit the core issue on all of their dislikes of her is a race issue. They went on to state all cultures and religions are racist. My brother brought up the example of when there were theories about Jesus Christ potentially being darker skin and not a Caucasian suddenly there was uproar from Caucasian community who didnt want to worship someone non-white.

 

-When i read quotes from The Bhagavad Gita (the Hindu religious text), my brother casted aside any quotes. He said i'm only using the Gita to suit my purposes. He said that there must be quotes in there about parents should being equivalent to God.(We've been told by pundaths (Hindu priests) that we should see our parents as equivalent to Gods as they have given us birth.)

He went on to say that i should first read the entire Gita (which u knows icant do in a matter of days) before i start quoting it as i can prove anything this way.

 

-Since my brother has decided to have an engagement ceremony with this new girl, my mom conveniently stated that if my brother wanted to marry his old caucasian girlfriend they would now say yes. My brother looked at me and said he wouldnt do that cuz it could never work alluding to cultural differences.

 

-I explained that although my family has met her for 5 mins and said hi(this was at the time period when my parents didnt know about us) that they didnt really have a real conversation with her. I explained before they start judging they should have an actual conversation with her. My brother denied, he said he saw enough and went so far to guaranteed me that they will never get used to her. That she is never welcome in this home.

 

-My parents were standing at this point and said 'how can we stay with you when your with her? U cant take care of us.' My brother folded his arms and said 'dont worry you can stay with me, my door is always open.' I protested and said i never was kicking my parents out of my life, that i always promised them that i want to take care of them. My brother explained that by taking her in my side, i kicked and slapped my parents out of my life.

 

-I told them how ridiculous our culture is that one Caucasian girl can have such a huge impact on the family that all the relatives and friends will lose respect for them. My brother agreed but said something along the lines ' what are you going do? Do u think God has sent you down here and fix everything? That you are some kind of hero? Nothings going to change, no one is going to see or understand your message. U wanna fix this culture? start finding another culture that has no racism. You will single handedly bring this entire family to shame. Our parents only get a few days off a year and I hope your happy because u ruined our Christmas.'

 

 

This is all that i can remember of what they said. My parents still are sad and once and a while my mom would throw in hurtful side comments under her breath. I'm sorry i havent replied to all the previous messages. I have saved where i left off in Karena's post reply and will post a reply soon.

 

I don't have a lot of time but I wanted to respond, so will take time. I cried reading this, especially the vile things your brother said to you and your parents sat there using him and allowing it. The visciousness of the blame they placed all onto you.

 

Did you think to tell them there wouldn't BE this problem in the first place IF they weren't so racist?? bigots?? cowards...yes, cowards. They are so SCARED they will be shamed that they are treating you horribly and everyone else around them. Call them cowards, at this point I would myself if I were there.

 

When your parents sit there and allow your brother to place all the blame onto you. Tell them NO, THEY ARE TO BLAME!! THERE WOULDN'T BE THIS PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE IF THEY WEREN'T SUCH BIGOTS AND RACISTS. IF THEY ARE PROUD OF BEING THAT WAY, YOU ARE NOT...THEY SHAME AND EMBARRASS YOU AND YOU WON'T BLESS YOUR BROTHER'S MARRIAGE WHEN IT IS BASED ON ALL THE WRONG REASONS, RACISM, BIGOTRY, SELFISHNESS, FEAR, COWARDICE, LIES....... or anything else you think applies.

 

Sadgati is correct, you have made some progress because they all admitted they are racist. Your brother actually acted proud of turning into a racist??? , and I confess that attitude shocked me some. I don't know why after all I have heard but it did.

 

He even tried to justify why it was ok to be racist...because everyone else is. What the?? This reminds me of children saying they want to do something because everyone else is. My mom used to say if all the other children jumped off a cliff would you want me to allow you to jump off too? Or, something on the order of.. you are my child not theirs and you will obey my rules. Your brother is being both foolish and childish. His argument IS ridiculous and very immature. Why don't you just make fun of him and use some of these like Sadgati mentioned or perhaps mine which were based on her comments.

 

Did he used to throw childish fits and get his own way? Or yell a lot and intimidate people? I ask because his rationalizations remind me of someone else I know...although that person isn't racist, his immaturity is the same. Also, the way he is so arrogant and the abusive comments he makes are mean and narcissistic. He is just mean.

 

As Sadgati said, If everyone else is stealing does that make it ok to steal? If everyone else is murdering does that make it ok to murder? If everyone else joins a gang which went around shooting people off the street, does that make it ok? Someone has to try to stop it, and if he doesn't have the guts, well YOU DO! Use some of these on him and make him out for the fool he really is. This goes against my nature to call him a fool but seriously now...he is racist because everyone else is so that makes it ok??? HUH??? I believe what offended me so much was how he was so mean to you. Yes, downright mean. He mocked you for wanting to try to be a better man, he ridiculed you.

 

Also, in response to your brother's comment, YES, people can change. You just happened to watch him change for the worse.

 

You didn't slap your parents in the face...........THEY DID IT TO YOU!!! Are you able to laugh at some of his arguments and tell him how riduculous they are?

 

Your brother said marriage to the white girl would never work? It worked for what?? 8 years and he ended it because your parents chose a different color for him? Your parents have no objections to her..( as you stated, they say this conveniently now that he is sufficiently brainwashed so it is all hot air) Sadgati hit on something about how if they have no objections then why don't they push him into marrying the girl he loves instead of hiding behind the brown girl? Aren't they ashamed of themselves for teaching him to be racist? Oh, boy.......

 

I am at a loss here dealing with bigots and racists. I am a white Christian. While it is true some in the white community didn't like the thought of Jesus being darker skinned, most people could have cared less. Sometimes the dissenters have the loudest voice, but they don't speak for the vast majority.

 

I also have a black faced angel on my treetop, and a nativity set (Sadgati's manger scene) with darker skinned people. I also have one which is whiter. I love them both and set both of them out. I chose them because they were very pretty and well done. I loved the faces. It appears a lot of us don't care about the skin color...why do they? Also, Sadgati's friends and I just debunked your brother's argument.

 

Why don't you ask his ex white girlfriend how she feels about it if she is a Christian? Again, as Sadgati said not all religions and cultures are racist, just SOME people like your parents and brothers within them. Aren't they so proud of themselves? Aren't they proud to be a follower of man and a follower of racism instead of a follower of God's word? Why don't you ask them?

 

It is also true you didn't make progress when you used logic or kindness or normal means of communication, only when you started fighting back and shaming them a bit

 

I keep thinking because nothing else works, and because of their mindsets.. they are so scared of their own relatives and their verbal abuse or casting them out......, that since verbal abuse is what they dish out, that may be what you have to do back to them to get them to hear you. Sadly.....,because I never thought I would hear myself say that... But, if by their reasoning verbal abuse is what their biggest fear is, you might have to be their biggest fear. Just be careful you don't become them in the process.... but you can't go on living like this until they brainwash you and harden your heart like they have your brothers. I swear, it feels to me like they are trying to kill you somehow.

 

Your parents are acting incredibly selfish. They want all of this for themselves and they keep saying so........ AND they allow your brother to treat you like this.

 

I keep thinking back to why they would suddenly say marrying the white girl was ok, and your brother saying he can't. It bothered me too.

 

I have to say, this wouldn't be my first choice or my second choice, but you tried all of those and the line is drawn in the sand now. But, I am with Sadgati and everything she said, shame your brother, tell him you lost respect for him, he is a coward, the hiding behind a brown girls skirt, tell him at least you are man enough to try, all the things she said and more.

 

I also agree I would tell your brother I won't bless the engagement or attend the engagement ceremony and don't with the same reasons....lies before God, dishonest, no integrity, wrong, ...cowardly...they will allow their son to do this because they don't have the courage to stand up to their MEAN, viscious relatives......, what lousy parents they are that they would allow your brother to do this..yes, I said lousy because in my mind to let their son do this......that act alone makes them lousy.

 

Earlier I told you the meanings of blessing...use those reasons against them...unholy, not pure motives, dishonest, living a lie........

Here, I will paste it for you. Use all the goodness of a blessing to show them why you won't and why your brother is wrong. If they are worried about being ashamed in their racist, bigotted community...think of the shame they will feel knowing you won't attend...You know as well as I do the deceit behind that relationship that it is NOT holy. Reactant, You have no real choice that I see other than to shame your brother out of this faked marriage. It is all taking place for all of the wrong reasons. This brown girl isn't there for the right reasons either. The whole thing is tainted and seems evil to me how it is being done.

 

Here it is again as a reminder:

 

"Be very careful about giving your blessing to your brother. If I were you, I would not give it at all.

If you give this blessing knowing the truth and reasons for the wedding, and the reasons behind the relationship, and the true damage that has been done to the white girlfriends AND to your brother, you need to realize what it means you will be doing. When you cast out a person due to their color only, it is very wrong. It is cruel. I can't justify how your family treats women and their children like they are only property to be bargained off or discarded because they aren't the right color.

Be very careful about giving your blessing. Giving your 'blessing' is more than just a word. It means you are going to consecrate them and make it holy by religious rite; in heavenly bliss. You will be sanctifying it. You will be making it sacred, or dedicated to sacred uses, or reverend. Sanctify means something sacred or holy. Holy means of the "highest spiritual purity", "saintly", godly, pure, angelic, righteous, etc.

Do you really consider this potential union sacred or holy? Or of God? angelic? pure? righteous? in heavenly bliss?"

 

Your brother and parents are bringing shame to your own family Reactant. First they blame all white people for why they will be shamed, then they blame white people for why their OWN RELATIVES AND PEERS will cast them out, they blame white people for why they will be abused by their OWN fellow Indians..,

then you get them to agree they are racist, so nowthey blame all cultures and religions for why they are racist, then they are going to push him into marrying a brown girl for money..which is sick in itself...,it is now your fault they can't live with you and a white girl...

and EVERY SINGLE REASON THEY HAVE FOR EVERYTHING IS ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT THEY ARE BEHAVING THAT WAY...It isn't them...oh no, not them...someone else did it so they have to now?... ...racism and visciousness of relatives......, now you want to try to be a better person, show more love and understanding to people of different cultures and now the whole thing is your fault. You know it isn't your fault. You have a heart~

 

Do you see the pattern? Everything...EVERYTHING is someone else's fault and they take absolutely NO responsibility for anything. They ARE cowards who hide behind anyone they can put in front of themselves to SHIELD themselves. They say they are afraid...they can't live with the white girl with you so that is your fault, not theirs even though they were invited by you and the white girl....it is all selfish, all about them...and they don't care about anyone else or the results of what they cause. They can't even own up to any blame. So, call them cowards...the shoe fits.

 

Fight back...this is frustrating for me and I am not in your shoes. Fight back as hard as you can and the only way I can see to do that now is to shame them right back. Don't let them blame you..., refuse to. I don't see what that white girl saw in your brother, I really don't. How could she love a man like that? Did he always act this way? YOu said he loved her for eight years and still does, but he is doing this to her? He isn't much of a man in my opinion. He can't even take responsibility for his own actions.

 

I do believe you will have to take a strong stance against your brother's marriage and refuse to attend, or support, or bless and threaten to embarrass them. They only care about themselves seemingly, so what choice do you have? You may have to embarrass them. Attack your brother, and laugh at his ridiculous arguments. They are a joke.

 

Remember when they blame you to tell them NO you are NOT because there wouldn't be this problem in the first place if they weren't bigots and racists. Make sure you blame them back.

 

You may want to tell your brother at least God didn't send you down to abuse people like he is...., and you have the decency to treat them equally.

 

Good luck Reactant. I wish I could be by your side to help you out.

[Monkeeman]

Hey everyone,

 

Sorry for the delay in my replies. I've gotten very very sick the past few days. I developed an infection and fever. I eventually had to go to the hospital because i wasnt able to keep anything i drunk down.

 

I'm doing a bit better now and can drink a little. My parents had been very supportive and we havent had much fights in our home since i returned from the hospital. It seems they completely put J aside and are focused on me getting better, which is what they were suppose to do all this time!

 

Before i got worse, my family had a long fight with me. I was in my room and my brother called me to come out. I enter my parents master bedroom and there was the entire family sitting and ready to start an 'intervention'. Now it was my brothers turn to knock sense into me. Its been awhile since this day but i'm going to try my best to recall what he and my parents said.

 

This time they tried a different approach, they attacked on areas besides her race.

 

-They attacked on an incident where i had gone out to be with friends and J before i had my surgery. They needed to contact me but they couldnt so they ended up trying to call J (her cell phone was off) and then her parents. Her parents were very rude to them and now they are asserting that her family is a terrible family to associate with. My dad says once u marry the girl u marry the family and my family doesnt want anything to do with them.

 

-Eventually i got them to admit the core issue on all of their dislikes of her is a race issue. They went on to state all cultures and religions are racist. My brother brought up the example of when there were theories about Jesus Christ potentially being darker skin and not a Caucasian suddenly there was uproar from Caucasian community who didnt want to worship someone non-white.

 

-When i read quotes from The Bhagavad Gita (the Hindu religious text), my brother casted aside any quotes. He said i'm only using the Gita to suit my purposes. He said that there must be quotes in there about parents should being equivalent to God.(We've been told by pundaths (Hindu priests) that we should see our parents as equivalent to Gods as they have given us birth.)

He went on to say that i should first read the entire Gita (which u knows icant do in a matter of days) before i start quoting it as i can prove anything this way.

 

-Since my brother has decided to have an engagement ceremony with this new girl, my mom conveniently stated that if my brother wanted to marry his old caucasian girlfriend they would now say yes. My brother looked at me and said he wouldnt do that cuz it could never work alluding to cultural differences.

 

-I explained that although my family has met her for 5 mins and said hi(this was at the time period when my parents didnt know about us) that they didnt really have a real conversation with her. I explained before they start judging they should have an actual conversation with her. My brother denied, he said he saw enough and went so far to guaranteed me that they will never get used to her. That she is never welcome in this home.

 

-My parents were standing at this point and said 'how can we stay with you when your with her? U cant take care of us.' My brother folded his arms and said 'dont worry you can stay with me, my door is always open.' I protested and said i never was kicking my parents out of my life, that i always promised them that i want to take care of them. My brother explained that by taking her in my side, i kicked and slapped my parents out of my life.

 

-I told them how ridiculous our culture is that one Caucasian girl can have such a huge impact on the family that all the relatives and friends will lose respect for them. My brother agreed but said something along the lines ' what are you going do? Do u think God has sent you down here and fix everything? That you are some kind of hero? Nothings going to change, no one is going to see or understand your message. U wanna fix this culture? start finding another culture that has no racism. You will single handedly bring this entire family to shame. Our parents only get a few days off a year and I hope your happy because u ruined our Christmas.'

 

 

This is all that i can remember of what they said. My parents still are sad and once and a while my mom would throw in hurtful side comments under her breath. I'm sorry i havent replied to all the previous messages. I have saved where i left off in Karena's post reply and will post a reply soon.

 

Hey bro,

 

I was snarky before but you seem an ok guy. I read your newer comments and you are in a tough battle. I agree you have to fight back man or shame them if that is what it takes. They deserve it. Do what you have to do. It is crazy.

 

I have one other method to try. Peer pressure. Get your bro alone and ask him if he is crazy man. They say ok marry the girl of his dreams, he finally has their permission (thanks to you not him) and he said he can't? What is he crazy.......go for it! Tell him he can make it work and don't give up. Tell him they will adjust and get used to it. Tell him the whole family isn't going to hate your mom, they love her too much. Tell your bro you will support him with his white girlfriend, but you can't with the brown one because...........Tell him not to let his white gf go, she stuck with him eight years and it worked, tell him the brown one is only after his money and she is a trashy gold digger.....do what you have to do, say what you have to say! Get him all excited about making it work with his white gf. Tell him how proud you will be of him for having the courage to do this. Tell him he will be a leader in the family, and the rest of your cousins will be glad to have him to follow... Say snarky things about the brown girl like he does your white gf, and build up the his white gf.

 

It doesn't matter if your parents were sincere or not, they agreed and gave him permission and how can they go back on their word now?

 

Work your brother dude! Hit him below the belt if you have to! Once you get him you are ready to take the home run.

[Rollercoasterr]

Sorry, but I think his brother would see right through that. It just seems like what someone would do out of desperation in a situation like this. They probably already expect it.

[Sadgati]

Sorry, but I think his brother would see right through that. It just seems like what someone would do out of desperation in a situation like this. They probably already expect it.

 

 

What does he have to lose?

 

Reactant,

All your brother cares about is how he looks. He will care how he looks to you too whether or not he admits it. I have seen this played out many times. To an Indian pride is everything. It is their weakest link. Pride is their blind spot. So play on it from both sides.

 

Express your shame for him marrying for money and status, express your shame for the brown girl being a gold digger and like monkee says...be snarky about her and work it, express your shame for your parents for marrying for such superficial reasons as this. You will be speaking the truth. Use it against your parents...the brown only marrying for money and status, and how this cheapens their family for the brown girl to use your brother like this...... , and use it against your bro.

 

Rememember Reactant, your family accused your white gf of only being there for the money and because you were going to be a doctor....why is the brown girl there? she is ONLY there because of ALL the reasons they objected to the white girl for...so this is an even greater truth to use against the the brown girl. The hypocrisy of their argument is, they SET IT UP WITH THE BROWN GIRL FOR MONEY AND STATUS AND SO DID SHE AND HER PARENTS.

 

So why is it ok for the brown girl to be a money grubber??? Why do they approve of her? They KNOW she is ONLY there for the money and status because they arranged it on both sides of the Indian families!!

 

I said to my parents this morning after I read monkee's comment about the brown girl being nothing but a gold digger and how this shames my family because the only reason she is there is because of their money. She wants to USE us. (of course my parents are using her too)

 

We argued of course but they FINALLY agreed, because ultimately what else is it? She is a money grubbing gold digger. (and so are they) That IS the only reason she is there when you get right down to it. If we had none, she wouldn't even consider my bro. But, they argued around it. If mine heard it maybe his will. They might still be stubborn but they heard and every little bit helps.

 

I wish my parents would give my bro their approval so I could try the rest. Actually, I will work my bro anyway, what can it hurt. He loves someone else, not the brown girl and he admitted it to me finally.

 

Indians care about pride above everything, and appearances to their relatives and friends. It is sinful arrogance, but they won't admit it. He is only in this mess because they want to improve their social status and make other Indians envy them. Every argument his brother says is about his pride and how he looks. He wants to be important so he puts down his own bro to his parents and acts the martyr. It is all very selfish.

 

I agree with Monkeeman, you do what you have to do. Be snarky about the brown girl to your parents and your brother. Sooner or later they will look at her and see the truth whether or not they admit it. At least when they look at her and try to praise her for how wonderful she is marrying your family for money and status, it will be in their brains bouncing around how greedy she is.

 

For the first time reading these comments I laughed when I saw the brown girl is a gold digger. You nailed it. Work the part about how he will be the leader in the family on your bro....... Work your brother's pride within the family and community. It can work.

 

To an Indian, their pride is everything........, so it stands to reason if you hit their pride that will be their weakest link. Also, your brother loves another so he might like to find a way his pride can get out of this mess they put him in.

 

Get well!!

 

Also, more groundbreaking..your brother agreed about a few of your points, he still argued against them, but he did agree how Indians really are on a few.

 

your bros gf will be a weak link to use on him too since he loves her so bring her up a lot!!!