MistyK Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I also hold that if one IS addicted then the only answer is abstinence. And I guarantee you that a 12 step program is only as effective as the person working it, nothing easy about it, no matter what the addiction. For the record, in the context of relationships abstinence has a broader meaning. You don't have to dump the person, just get rid of the addictive/toxic aspects of the relationship. The relationship has to be reshaped so that you don't get the high and withdrawals of the dysfunctional behaviors. Link to post Share on other sites
NowhereToHide Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 For the record, in the context of relationships abstinence has a broader meaning. You don't have to dump the person, just get rid of the addictive/toxic aspects of the relationship. The relationship has to be reshaped so that you don't get the high and withdrawals of the dysfunctional behaviors. That of course is much easier said than done, especially if one is truly addicted. It's like being an alcoholic and keeping tequila out where you can see it everyday. You can't remove the alcohol from the tequila. I think your point is valid... maybe there are some that can do it. I'm just not one of them. Link to post Share on other sites
MistyK Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 That of course is much easier said than done, especially if one is truly addicted. It's like being an alcoholic and keeping tequila out where you can see it everyday. You can't remove the alcohol from the tequila. I think your point is valid... maybe there are some that can do it. I'm just not one of them. The trouble is, either way one can't avoid the work of stopping the addictive process by dumping someone - they'll jst start it again with a new person. Sometimes it's tempting to trade one addiciton for another - alcohol to cocaine, or in this case, one person for another. The process is the important thing, and it doesn't mean the relationship itself has to end. Link to post Share on other sites
NowhereToHide Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 The trouble is, either way one can't avoid the work of stopping the addictive process by dumping someone - they'll jst start it again with a new person. Sometimes it's tempting to trade one addiciton for another - alcohol to cocaine, or in this case, one person for another. The process is the important thing, and it doesn't mean the relationship itself has to end. I have to disagree. In order for me to FIRST get rid of my addiction to HIM, yes my relationship had to end. There was no other way for me to do it. I tried keeping him in my life and it didn't work. It's not avoiding the "work" by removing the addictive person from your life. It's the first step. Only after you get over THAT addiction can you work on the reasons why you became addicted in the first place. I am doing that right now in therapy. But I can tell you that getting to the bottom of addictive behavior is a lot harder while one is still addicted. It clouds your judgement big time. Link to post Share on other sites
pkn06002 Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 This addiction thing (to me a least) is nothing but a label to try and minimize what the relationship meant. Therefore easier to cope/deal with. Link to post Share on other sites
MistyK Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I have to disagree. In order for me to FIRST get rid of my addiction to HIM, yes my relationship had to end. There was no other way for me to do it. I tried keeping him in my life and it didn't work. It's not avoiding the "work" by removing the addictive person from your life. It's the first step. Only after you get over THAT addiction can you work on the reasons why you became addicted in the first place. I am doing that right now in therapy. But I can tell you that getting to the bottom of addictive behavior is a lot harder while one is still addicted. It clouds your judgement big time. Well, given that you're married, for you, I totally agree. You have to go cold turkey. What I had in mind was when married people are addicted to their spouses. They don't need to divorce, just work through the addictive behaviors. Link to post Share on other sites
NowhereToHide Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Well, given that you're married, for you, I totally agree. You have to go cold turkey. What I had in mind was when married people are addicted to their spouses. They don't need to divorce, just work through the addictive behaviors. I never thought of being addicted to my H!! I actually think I could get behind THAT addiction! Yes... going NC with my xAP was really for the best. It's the only way for me to get over him. I'm struggling, but I have to remember that it's what I have to do. Link to post Share on other sites
MistyK Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I never thought of being addicted to my H!! I actually think I could get behind THAT addiction! Yes... going NC with my xAP was really for the best. It's the only way for me to get over him. I'm struggling, but I have to remember that it's what I have to do. Yes, but if you noticed a tendecy towards addictive behaviors, be on the lookout for transfers of these behaviors to your H. It seems to me that all relationships have varying degrees of addiction to them, but there is something very different and powerful about addiction to MM. I've read a bunch of really interesting books on the topic and I think I have a good understanding now of why that is so, at least for me. But wow, VERY powerful stuff. Link to post Share on other sites
IfWishesWereHorses Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 That of course is much easier said than done, especially if one is truly addicted. It's like being an alcoholic and keeping tequila out where you can see it everyday. You can't remove the alcohol from the tequila. I think your point is valid... maybe there are some that can do it. I'm just not one of them. I'm battling cigarettes at the moment. Someone told me that they carried one cigarette around in their pocket for a year and that was how they quit. That puppy would have been gone 5 minutes after I quit. Hell, I've smoke the last hit of every butt left in my ashtray. I'm not sure that its the relationship that would have to be reshaped. The unhealthy dependence is within the person. Link to post Share on other sites
MistyK Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I'm not sure that its the relationship that would have to be reshaped. The unhealthy dependence is within the person. True, but it's likely the other person in the relationship would have to change too to prevent settling back into old patterns. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 For some, it is not an addiction to a particular person, it is an addiction to that "exciting feeling" of being in a forbidden dance. I think that is why many say "once a cheat, always a cheat" because someone 'addicted" to this kind of addiction will always seek it and for them to quit the addiction, they do really need to hit rock bottom-like lose everything or catch STD, etc. Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 For some, it is not an addiction to a particular person, it is an addiction to that "exciting feeling" of being in a forbidden dance. I think that is why many say "once a cheat, always a cheat" because someone 'addicted" to this kind of addiction will always seek it and for them to quit the addiction, they do really need to hit rock bottom-like lose everything or catch STD, etc. What you just said is why Lizzie thinks that all married men that have cheated once, will be lifelong cheaters. Maybe they will be, maybe they won't. Some hit "rock bottom" the minute they get caught (if they get caught) and realize what they have to lose - or lose it. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 What you just said is why Lizzie thinks that all married men that have cheated once, will be lifelong cheaters. Maybe they will be, maybe they won't. Some hit "rock bottom" the minute they get caught (if they get caught) and realize what they have to lose - or lose it. True. Not all adulterers are addicted to cheating, though....that's why I said "some". And some are teetering towards this kind of addiction. Link to post Share on other sites
skylarblue Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 First, I think people are taking the term “addiction” way too literally; as with many words there are common or general usage definitions also. I would say that I am addicted to my MM (actually the feelings he provide) in the sense of loosely defining the term “addiction” as to describe a recurring compulsion or passion to engage in some specific activity. Although we talk almost everyday and see each other a few times a week for several years now, I am not in love with him nor him with me. It’s purely a PA relationship that I’ve allowed to continue simply because he is M. I am extremely addicted to the psychological high I get from being with a MM. My attraction to him initially was his profession (if not for his job I wouldn’t have even noticed him), but the fact that he his M is the only reason I am still so attracted and continued to see him. It has nothing to do with my feelings for him as a person or as my guy. Psychologically I’m immensely obsessed with being the OW and if he was a different MM I’d be just obsessed. If he divorced tomorrow, I would end it tomorrow. Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 First, I think people are taking the term “addiction” way too literally; as with many words there are common or general usage definitions also. I would say that I am addicted to my MM (actually the feelings he provide) in the sense of loosely defining the term “addiction” as to describe a recurring compulsion or passion to engage in some specific activity. Although we talk almost everyday and see each other a few times a week for several years now, I am not in love with him nor him with me. It’s purely a PA relationship that I’ve allowed to continue simply because he is M. I am extremely addicted to the psychological high I get from being with a MM. My attraction to him initially was his profession (if not for his job I wouldn’t have even noticed him), but the fact that he his M is the only reason I am still so attracted and continued to see him. It has nothing to do with my feelings for him as a person or as my guy. Psychologically I’m immensely obsessed with being the OW and if he was a different MM I’d be just obsessed. If he divorced tomorrow, I would end it tomorrow. I dunno, sky. Based on what you just posted, I'd say they are using the term "addiction" just right. Science has proven that even the chemicals that our bodies naturally produce can be addictive. The feelings we have come with attached hormones. And the intensity of feelings in affairs is mirrored with equally intense hormonal fluctuations. These hormonal highs are extremely addictive. Sometimes, though, its just a pattern from a previous phase of life (childhood) that had the same/similar feelings associated and people keep trying to relive it. I'm curious as to whether you'd be like the MM in Lizzie's theory, though. Continuing to have EMAs with MM because of the way it makes you feel as the OW? Link to post Share on other sites
MistyK Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Addiction isn't just a repetition of behaviors that results in a positive reward - by definition it also includes some very negative consequences and isn't healthy. Repeating things that feel good is one thing, doing it knowing the outcome will be bad is quite another. Link to post Share on other sites
torranceshipman Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I think that calling it an addiction can actually help some people to move on, if they treat it that way (i.e. removing the object of addiction, knowing to expect certain withdrawals and planning how to manage those feelings)...so even if it was / wasn't an 'addiction' in every case I think it can help to consider it in those terms. And serial cheaters of course, are probably addicted to the rush they get in the As. HOWEVER it also bothers me when some people start saying they were 'in the affair fog' and 'addicted to my narcissist OW/OM/etc who manipulated me' - I mean come on, take some responsibility.... Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 This addiction thing (to me a least) is nothing but a label to try and minimize what the relationship meant. Therefore easier to cope/deal with. ...And to recast it as necessarily bad, therefore a good thing to have gotten rid of. There was mention elsewhere of "serial cheats" being addicted. I was a "serial OW" (actually, a parallel one as well as serial, since a number of As were synchronous) but I've certainly never viewed it as an addiction. It was always a conscious choice, made freely without duress, and with a great deal of consideration before and during. When an A no longer worked for me, I canned it and walked away without a second thought. Were it an addiction, I would not have been able that easily to shrug it off - I'd have mourned it, pined for it, craved it with a physicality that would have been real and rough. But I guess for an addiction, you need a dependence to develop, and I'm not the dependent type. Link to post Share on other sites
joyz Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Just curious. I'm not addicted to my OMM. I'm in love with him. Are the people who are addicted not in love with their MM? Are they addicted to the excitement? For me, I would give anything to be in a boring, mundane, day-to-day, open relationship with OMM. Do people just try to tell themselves they're addicted to make it easier when they are trying to end the relationship? Just trying to understand. Thanks. i think it is more like attachment. you get addicted to things, not to people. Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Do people just try to tell themselves they're addicted to make it easier when they are trying to end the relationship? Just trying to understand. Thanks. I think it's an easy out for people to keep from being accountable for their actions. Saying it's an addiction gives the impression that they had no choice and therefore not responsible for their actions. I think it's also a way to keep the R illegitimate. As in, it isn't love, it's an addiction, only 3% make it, etc. No one wants to believe that their spouse left them in a lucid and sane state. Better to blame it on an addiction, than that their spouse made a tough decision and it didn't go their way. GEL Link to post Share on other sites
delajoonal Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 i think they are comparing the definition of addiction with ending ANY LOVE affair, be it an A, a M, any relationship... they both are hard to kick...addiction...love...both can be the hardest thing to do in anyone's life:( Link to post Share on other sites
NowhereToHide Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I think it's an easy out for people to keep from being accountable for their actions. Saying it's an addiction gives the impression that they had no choice and therefore not responsible for their actions. I think it's also a way to keep the R illegitimate. As in, it isn't love, it's an addiction, only 3% make it, etc. No one wants to believe that their spouse left them in a lucid and sane state. Better to blame it on an addiction, than that their spouse made a tough decision and it didn't go their way. GEL I believe wholeheartedly that my xAP is and was an addiction for me. And I have never once made excuses for my actions or implied that I wasn't responsible for entering my affair. It was all me. I don't believe I was instantaneously addicted to him. And again, I wouldn't say I'm addicted TO him.... I'm addicted to the way he made me feel. You can be in love and be addicted. They aren't mutually exclusive. I wish I wasn't addicted to him. He triggered some stuff in me that hasn't been triggered before. And coming off those "highs" has been pure hell. Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I believe wholeheartedly that my xAP is and was an addiction for me. And I have never once made excuses for my actions or implied that I wasn't responsible for entering my affair. It was all me. I don't believe I was instantaneously addicted to him. And again, I wouldn't say I'm addicted TO him.... I'm addicted to the way he made me feel. You can be in love and be addicted. They aren't mutually exclusive. I wish I wasn't addicted to him. He triggered some stuff in me that hasn't been triggered before. And coming off those "highs" has been pure hell. I'm sure you do believe you are/were addicted to your AP. It's alot easier to blameshift than take responsibility and move on. Saying you're addicted keeps you close to your AP and keeps you from addressing your problems. So much of counseling today means putting pretty labels on people to make them feel better about the bad choices they've made in life and keep the people who love them from leaving them. I find it so inauthentic. You want to heal your H from your A? Stop hiding behind a diagnosis and be real with him. GEL Link to post Share on other sites
NowhereToHide Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 (edited) I'm sure you do believe you are/were addicted to your AP. It's alot easier to blameshift than take responsibility and move on. Saying you're addicted keeps you close to your AP and keeps you from addressing your problems. So much of counseling today means putting pretty labels on people to make them feel better about the bad choices they've made in life and keep the people who love them from leaving them. I find it so inauthentic. You want to heal your H from your A? Stop hiding behind a diagnosis and be real with him. GEL Are you kidding me? Do you really think I still want to be attached to him? I'm here for help, GEL. Just like everyone else. I'm working on my issues. Just like everyone else. The last thing I want to do is hide behind a "pretty" label. Edited October 15, 2009 by NowhereToHide Link to post Share on other sites
delajoonal Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 I'm sure you do believe you are/were addicted to your AP. It's alot easier to blameshift than take responsibility and move on. Saying you're addicted keeps you close to your AP and keeps you from addressing your problems. So much of counseling today means putting pretty labels on people to make them feel better about the bad choices they've made in life and keep the people who love them from leaving them. I find it so inauthentic. You want to heal your H from your A? Stop hiding behind a diagnosis and be real with him. GEL just an observation... GEL...i think that Nowhere's post was very articulate and honest... she made NO excuses for her A or feelings about addiction to IT, etc.. i am not condoning any A..but OW/OM are here to vent and heal too.. and i believe that your response was a bit harsh..since Nowhere's post was very AUTHENTIC and honest. IMHO;) Link to post Share on other sites
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