Fantasy vs. Reality

[fooled once]

So true... not all affairs are alike. That is evident just from reading these boards.

 

There's been so much discussion on both sides of this issue. Many OWs believe that if the MM in the marriage doesn't have "passion", then he is settling. And many BSs believe that what their spouse engaged in "wasn't real". And you know what's interesting? Both of these views may or may not be correct. Again... nothing is black and white.

 

You are so right. And just because some people view things one way doesn't mean their view is right. I know I am open to other views; but that doesn't mean my view point is wrong. For ME, being married and dealing with all the things a marriage encompasses is real. The man I was in an Affair with had his own apartment but spent most nights with me. I still believe what we shared wasn't 'real' because he wasn't my husband, he was the husband of someone else. That is what *I* mean about real vs fantasy. Again, doesn't mean my view point is wrong. It is just MY view which is what this thread was about -- our view points.

[Fallen Angel]

I can understand how someone who is happily married and spends a lot of time with their spouse may feel that nothing less is reality. But not all marriages work like that and not all affairs are a quickie here and there.

 

 

I agree, we have to be careful not to make blanket statements about the way things "are" in Affairs. I don't know that there is a "typical affair", as each marriage is different so is each A.

 

I would say that some are very "fantasy" based. Clandestine meetings in motels or whatever place they can find to be together. Highly charged energy, highly sexual, not a lot of "meeting of the souls". All about the "romance and excitement" types of affairs.

 

Then there are the affairs that are more like bigamy without the second marriage license. The MP acts as a "sometimes missing" spouse in both homes. There are shared bills, shared responsibilites, shared social lives between the WS and the "other". The sexual chemistry may still be somewhat more highly charged than in the M, but maybe not. These seem to be the relationships where the MP seems to settle in to playing the "spouse" in both halves of their double life.

 

Then there are the affairs that are somewhere in between those two extremes.

 

There really are no "typical" affairs, in my opinion. While most have a lot of similarities, no two affairs are the same, and since ALL involve real people, real emotions, and real pain, I would say labeling ANY of them as nothing but "fantasy" is unfair to the REALITY of all the people who are effected by that affair, for good or bad.

 

I think that to say it is not REALITY is a protective measure used by BS and WS as a way of minimizing the "emotional impact" of the affair. By saying it was just "fantasy and the M is REALITY" it gives the M more WEIGHT, thereby making the BS feel more secure, and the WS appears less culpable and therefore easier to forgive.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Fallen Angel

[becky2009]

That was very nice of you to say.

 

I also don't regret my former marriage OR my Affair because both brought things to me and my life that without, I wouldn't have been in the right place at the right time to meet my H.

 

I try to live my life without regrets, because what good are regrets? We all screw up and make mistakes. We hopefully learn and grow from those. Both my first marriage and my affair helped shape me into who I am today. I was devastated when my affair ended - I laid in bed and wallowed in depression and self pity. I thought he hung the moon. He hurt me to the core of my being. Maybe that is what I needed in my life at that time.

 

But I was able to love again and I found someone who looked past my faults and helped me learn to love ME again. The love I share with my H is more deep than I thought I could ever feel. It is a very different love than I have ever experienced and I have faith that all fOW will find a new, different, deep love again with someone they don't have to share with another and will have someone that is all 'theirs'.

 

Thank You for this post, I needed to hear this today : )

[whattodonow12]

I agree, we have to be careful not to make blanket statements about the way things "are" in Affairs. I don't know that there is a "typical affair", as each marriage is different so is each A.

 

I would say that some are very "fantasy" based. Clandestine meetings in motels or whatever place they can find to be together. Highly charged energy, highly sexual, not a lot of "meeting of the souls". All about the "romance and excitement" types of affairs.

 

Then there are the affairs that are more like bigamy without the second marriage license. The MP acts as a "sometimes missing" spouse in both homes. There are shared bills, shared responsibilites, shared social lives between the WS and the "other". The sexual chemistry may still be somewhat more highly charged than in the M, but maybe not. These seem to be the relationships where the MP seems to settle in to playing the "spouse" in both halves of their double life.

 

Then there are the affairs that are somewhere in between those two extremes.

 

There really are no "typical" affairs, in my opinion. While most have a lot of similarities, no two affairs are the same, and since ALL involve real people, real emotions, and real pain, I would say labeling ANY of them as nothing but "fantasy" is unfair to the REALITY of all the people who are effected by that affair, for good or bad.

 

I think that to say it is not REALITY is a protective measure used by BS and WS as a way of minimizing the "emotional impact" of the affair. By saying it was just "fantasy and the M is REALITY" it gives the M more WEIGHT, thereby making the BS feel more secure, and the WS appears less culpable and therefore easier to forgive.[/QUOTE]

 

In my case, I know it was reality. Sure, there wasn't the reality of paying bills.... those types of things. But, we shared each other's lives. We knew everything going on in each other's lives down to details about kids' birthday parties, vacations, school, and giving each other honest advice about our respective marriages... It is reality, but just different, in my case. If I were to think anything different, I would be lying to myself. My MM lied his way out when he was confronted to save himself and his "life" .. everything that he has worked for and, especially, his children. We went to college together and have several of the same friends. We knew each other then and know each other better now. I know that deep down inside that he needs to try and give his marriage the best shot that he can so he can look at himself in the mirror and know that he did everything possible. I find no fault with him for that. It is scary. We both knew and had tried to back away several times and it didn't work. Now, we are forced to make it work. I keep telling myself if there is an opportunity for us in the future, that would be wonderful. But, I am not going to close myself off to anyone else in the meantime. If his marriage doesn't work out and I am available, then it wold be great. If I have found someone else, that is great too. I think he always thought that if I found someone else, then it would be easier for him. He, obviously, doesn't want to hurt me or hurt his family, but we can't continue the way things were going.

[whattodonow12]

.... or he could just really be a coward.....

[howcouldInotknow]

I know in my affair we discussed real issues. We often relied on each other for support in parenting and other real issues. However it is one thing to discuss these issues and another to share these responsibilities.

 

 

So for people who say their A was a fantasy that in my opinion is a way to take less responsibility for their actions and to belittle the emotions they felt outside of their marriage

 

Regardless of whether a person feels their emotions were fantasy or not (I don't) they still have to be responsible for their actions...so I don't really agree with this statement.

 

 

I guess if that is the case everyone's A is different. I don't have kids or a husband or a family and he didn't have children either. So for me there were a lot less issues and complications to my relationship. As for people not taking responsibility for their actions, have you read some of the posts here?

[2sure]

Emotions, conversations, and sharing thoughts are all REAL parts of an affair. And those are the important factors necessary for a real affair, not just sex.

 

Thing is ...all of those emotions, conversations, sharing, and even the passion felt are more intense simply because the relationship IS an affair. Its secret, its separate, its forbidden, its in its own compartment where MOST of the feelings generated are all warm and fuzzy. THATS the fantasy part. If it wasnt an affair, take all the affair factors away...and you will still have some of the emotions, conversations, and sharing...but not at a magnified and intense level, and usually not enough to withstand reality.

[MistyK]

I know in my affair we discussed real issues. We often relied on each other for support in parenting and other real issues. However it is one thing to discuss these issues and another to share these responsibilities.

 

My affair was like that too. We discussed classes to pick for his son (in high school) and other issues surrounding his son's academic performance, I reminded fMM of all his family member's upcoming birthdays, I did most of his banking for him, did all his ironing (even before he moved out) etc. We both had day to day realities that we wanted to share with each other because it was a real relationship. I know his xW likes to think that we were just skipping on the clouds in fantasy-land all the time and thats the reason he didn't want to come back to her. If that's what she needs to believe to feel better, I'm all for it, but it just isn't so.

[CarbonCopy]

Emotions, conversations, and sharing thoughts are all REAL parts of an affair. And those are the important factors necessary for a real affair, not just sex.

 

Thing is ...all of those emotions, conversations, sharing, and even the passion felt are more intense simply because the relationship IS an affair. Its secret, its separate, its forbidden, its in its own compartment where MOST of the feelings generated are all warm and fuzzy. THATS the fantasy part. If it wasnt an affair, take all the affair factors away...and you will still have some of the emotions, conversations, and sharing...but not at a magnified and intense level, and usually not enough to withstand reality.

 

Yes, I completely agree with this. Not to say that the feelings you and your affair partner share aren't real, BUT I think all those factors that you listed (the secrecy, the tabooness, etc) make your feelings seem more intense than they really are.

 

The emotional intensity is sooo addicting, though. I've been seeing and talking to this guy lately and, although he's great, I just DON'T feel that rush of excitement with him. With my MM I felt it instantaneously. I don't want to compare the two, but after having a taste of that rush with my MM, I want those feelings again (but in the context of a normal relationship... although I'm not sure that's possible?).

[OWoman]

Emotions, conversations, and sharing thoughts are all REAL parts of an affair. And those are the important factors necessary for a real affair, not just sex.

 

Thing is ...all of those emotions, conversations, sharing, and even the passion felt are more intense simply because the relationship IS an affair. Its secret, its separate, its forbidden, its in its own compartment where MOST of the feelings generated are all warm and fuzzy. THATS the fantasy part. If it wasnt an affair, take all the affair factors away...and you will still have some of the emotions, conversations, and sharing...but not at a magnified and intense level, and usually not enough to withstand reality.

 

I think this is true ONLY IF the A holds some kind of transgressive thrill for the APs. If an A is no big deal to you and you don't feel that it is wrong, there's no thrill, no fantasy, no intensity to be had out of it ON THE STRENGTH OF IT BEING AN A, though of course there could be thrills, fantasy or intensity for other reasons.

 

I don't get a special buzz from a R simply because it's an A, or not an A. I've had enough of both to recognise that the R - whether an A or not - stands or falls on its own merits, rather than due to the structural definition of it as an A (or not).

 

That said, I've found that many MMs have become so ground down by the mundane in their Ms, that they relished the opportunity to engage in the intensity that an A afforded them. It's as if they were so tired of having to act grown up all the time at home that the opportunity to cast all that off and just "be themselves" (instead of having to play the role of H, or Dad, or homeowner, or gardener, etc) with someone just burst through to their inner child or whatever.

 

But on the question of whether passion can be sustained into M - my father married his OW some decades ago now, and their M is as passionate as ever! My H's mother and step-father likewise, and his father and GF too, until he died. I think, based on my observations, that there's a far greater chance of holding onto the "magic" in 2nd Ms, as people strive to avoid the mistakes of the first.

[silktricks]

JMO, but I believe the affairs that are the most fantasy based are those that take place almost totally on-line --- possibly meeting for a few hours or even a day in vastly separated times. The "love" that is felt for the AP is primarily based on imagining what the AP is like. Those relationships, IMO, rarely have any footing in reality and will not generally stand the test of time (and no distance).

[2sure]

I wonder why the divorce stats for second marriages are even higher than those for first marriages?? And because infidelity often plays a part in first divorces...I mean, the words ONLY, ALWAYS, and NEVER are useless as far as relationships go.....but the facts that USUALLY apply remain the same.

[herenow]

I agree that all affairs are different. I also think that all relationships are different and all people are different.

 

However, IMO, all affairs have one thing in common. They are all based on a lie and if that lie is revealed to all involved, they have the potential to cause great pain.

 

If all involved know about the affair, then I would call it something else or maybe an open marriage which is far from what we are talking about here.

 

This is one reason why I can say that I have never and would never have an affair. I can't see intentionally engaging or enjoying anything that can cause pain to another person and/or myself. But that's just my opinion.

 

I don't think something that "real" that can cause so much pain fits into what I would call a "fantasy". I do see the point of everyone who has used that word, I just don't agree.

[OWoman]

I think, based on my observations, that there's a far greater chance of holding onto the "magic" in 2nd Ms, as people strive to avoid the mistakes of the first.

 

I wonder why the divorce stats for second marriages are even higher than those for first marriages?? And because infidelity often plays a part in first divorces...I mean, the words ONLY, ALWAYS, and NEVER are useless as far as relationships go.....but the facts that USUALLY apply remain the same.

 

I don't think these are necessarily contradictory - my observations are not a fully respresentative sample of second Ms (since my social circle is not fully representative - for example, I associate with very few people who hold conservative or right wing views, which almost certainly would influence their views on M!), and nor do I know many people still in first Ms after many years.

 

But beyond the sampling bias, it's perfectly feasible that second Ms are more "make or break" than first ones, which may well potter along for years being neither this nor that - while the second time around, it either works (and works well - and keeps on working well) or it doesn't, and the parties recognise that and then bail. After all, they've been through it before - why waste time and effort on something that's not worth it?

[fooled once]

Emotions, conversations, and sharing thoughts are all REAL parts of an affair. And those are the important factors necessary for a real affair, not just sex.

 

Thing is ...all of those emotions, conversations, sharing, and even the passion felt are more intense simply because the relationship IS an affair. Its secret, its separate, its forbidden, its in its own compartment where MOST of the feelings generated are all warm and fuzzy. THATS the fantasy part. If it wasnt an affair, take all the affair factors away...and you will still have some of the emotions, conversations, and sharing...but not at a magnified and intense level, and usually not enough to withstand reality.

 

Great post 2sure!

[fooled once]

I wonder why the divorce stats for second marriages are even higher than those for first marriages?? And because infidelity often plays a part in first divorces...I mean, the words ONLY, ALWAYS, and NEVER are useless as far as relationships go.....but the facts that USUALLY apply remain the same.

 

From my research, because of kids. Kids from prior marriages.

 

This causes more issues than you could guess; disney dad syndrome, stepmom's who think they are 'better than' the biomom, competition, lazy bio fathers, etc.... LOTS of various things revolving around kids. I have belonged to many stepparenting websites and the anger, angst and sadness is mind blowing. And lots of divorces ......

[OWoman]

JMO, but I believe the affairs that are the most fantasy based are those that take place almost totally on-line --- possibly meeting for a few hours or even a day in vastly separated times. The "love" that is felt for the AP is primarily based on imagining what the AP is like. Those relationships, IMO, rarely have any footing in reality and will not generally stand the test of time (and no distance).

 

This is an interesting issue. While I might be tempted to agree from a rational perspective, my experience cautions me otherwise.

 

My A was largely LDR, interspersed with frequent - sometimes lengthy - periods of togetherness (living together - very "reality based"). However, those LDR periods were vital in getting to know each other. I've studied online communities and while all the cliches about make-believe and fantasy creation are certainly true in some cases, there is equally the potential for people to be far more honest than a face2face situation allows. Even on LS, there are threads where people harness the anonymity (or, more correctly, pseudonymity) of the internet to confess things to total strangers that they would not feel comfortable telling their nearest and dearest (such as threads about still harbouring feelings for an AP years into a "reconciiled" M, for example).

 

My H and I used the opportunity of time apart to write it all out - exploring "what ifs" and hypothesising and playing silly games which revealed a great deal about our values, our hopes and aspirations, our life priorities and out dreams and fears. We connected very deeply in a way that resonated instantly when we saw each other again, and led to our becoming very close, very quickly.

 

Then again, the internet was neither our initial nor our priority means of connection - we met in a work-related context first; we had a web of connectedness that allowed each of us to research the other thoroughly, grounded in real life connections of a professional nature. Had we just met online, and without that web of real-life behind us, it could have been very different.

[OWoman]

From my research, because of kids. Kids from prior marriages.

 

This causes more issues than you could guess; disney dad syndrome, stepmom's who think they are 'better than' the biomom, competition, lazy bio fathers, etc.... LOTS of various things revolving around kids. I have belonged to many stepparenting websites and the anger, angst and sadness is mind blowing. And lots of divorces ......

 

Gosh! I find that really interesting! My first M (I was a second W) lasted a lot longer than it ought, because of the stepkids! If it were not for them, I'd have bailed long before I did...

[eyeswide]

The think I keep wondering about is that feeling one has mid-affair of being connected to one's "true self" - I had it, and I know from reading my H's affair correspondence that he had it.

 

For me it was a feeling that I was in touch with parts of myself that I had repressed for a long time over the course of my marriage -- I think I described it once in my journal as the relationship giving me a means of traveling to islands of myself that had been lost over time... and in some ways -- after the affair ended I was able to hold on to those parts of myself.

 

I tried to get my H to talk about whether he feels he has had to lose that sense of self again by ending his A and losing his AP. I used the metaphor he had used and all he said was "huh, I haven't thought about that metaphor for a while..."

 

But it still makes me wonder -- is that FEELING fantasy? I know I wasn't made whole by my AP (HAH! that almost seems laughable now...) but I certainly did uncork some real feelings by being with him and some of them I don't want to lose. I'm sure my H feels the same way but whether he'll admit to me or not, I'm not yet sure...

[Devil Inside]

The think I keep wondering about is that feeling one has mid-affair of being connected to one's "true self" - I had it, and I know from reading my H's affair correspondence that he had it.

 

For me it was a feeling that I was in touch with parts of myself that I had repressed for a long time over the course of my marriage -- I think I described it once in my journal as the relationship giving me a means of traveling to islands of myself that had been lost over time... and in some ways -- after the affair ended I was able to hold on to those parts of myself.

 

I tried to get my H to talk about whether he feels he has had to lose that sense of self again by ending his A and losing his AP. I used the metaphor he had used and all he said was "huh, I haven't thought about that metaphor for a while..."

 

But it still makes me wonder -- is that FEELING fantasy? I know I wasn't made whole by my AP (HAH! that almost seems laughable now...) but I certainly did uncork some real feelings by being with him and some of them I don't want to lose. I'm sure my H feels the same way but whether he'll admit to me or not, I'm not yet sure...

 

I get what you are talking about here. I think that is one of the most powerful things about some As...the fact that we can reconnect with these "lost" parts and that they are reinforced by how our APs look at us and interact with us.

[NowhereToHide]

JMO, but I believe the affairs that are the most fantasy based are those that take place almost totally on-line --- possibly meeting for a few hours or even a day in vastly separated times. The "love" that is felt for the AP is primarily based on imagining what the AP is like. Those relationships, IMO, rarely have any footing in reality and will not generally stand the test of time (and no distance).

 

 

Wow... this is so true of my A.

 

We were long distance. 99% of our correspondence was via email, text or phone (mostly email). While I agree with some that you can feel more "open" to disclose things about yourself when you're not face-to-face, I also think it's much easier to build the other person into something they aren't.

 

I believed my AP was the kindest, most open-minded, loving man I had ever met. I thought he was SO unappreciated and misunderstood by his W. But here's the thing... with these long-distance, "virtual" relationships you get to see what the other person wants you to see. And it works both ways. I never let him see my bad side. It was too important to us both to make the other person feel good.

 

One of the biggest reasons why it was so difficult to get over my A was because the way he ended it (basically disappearing from my life for a while) was so inconsistent with how he presented himself during the A. The man I knew wasn't capable of that. And over the months following my A, I've seen many more behaviors that make me realize that who he showed me wasn't the true him. My "soulmate" was a myth.

[Spark1111]

Wow, NTH! This is so introspective and so wise on your part to have reached this conclusion.

 

I hope/believe you have the ability to heal so much sooner than many who remain "stuck" in the soulmate myth.

[Spark1111]

I get what you are talking about here. I think that is one of the most powerful things about some As...the fact that we can reconnect with these "lost" parts and that they are reinforced by how our APs look at us and interact with us.

 

You know DI, they say that is the one remaining question that must be answered: How did your AP make you feel? What was the need they met that either you or your spouse, could not/did not meet.

 

It suppose to supply that aha moment!

[NowhereToHide]

Wow, NTH! This is so introspective and so wise on your part to have reached this conclusion.

 

I hope/believe you have the ability to heal so much sooner than many who remain "stuck" in the soulmate myth.

 

 

 

Oh, Spark... If only my "wisdom" and "introspection" would have guided me BEFORE my A....

 

As far as healing sooner, I hope can only hope. I am still struggling in the aftermath of this mess I've created. Six months post ending the A and I'm not over it completely.

 

While intuitively I KNOW that my AP isn't the man I thought he was, it is quite easy for me to fall back into fantasizing about him as though he was. I have found that thinking about him has become a sort of coping mechanism for me in my life. When things get hard, I think about him (the fantasy not the reality). It takes some work to force myself to see him for the real man he is, not the made up man I created.

[MizFit]

I can see both sides of this argument...here are my thoughts.

 

My A is based on reality. My feelings and desires and wants are real. We discuss kids...both his and mine. We discuss financial situations and many other things that would be considered only discussed inside a marriage.

 

His W has no interest in financial issues...she is very focused on one of the children, to the apparent detriment of her marriage...my thoughts--my affair with him is more realistic than her marriage to him. She is simply going along with life with blinders on and not expecting anything to happen. He continues to say he will not leave his marriage, but he continues to take chances that are quite pronounced. Reality of what her marriage is will come crashing down when she either catches him or is hearing him say it's over...if it all goes on as it is she will continue to remain outside the reality that is going on all around her.