Do you guys like this kind of porn?

[A O]

This link references various relevant studies. To read the studies in more depth - good luck! In many cases you'd have to go the old fashioned route of visiting a library or pay to get access to the academic sites.

Very interesting and informative link without even having to drill down too!

 

Very interesting and again, informative post on a whole. Respect.

 

When you google, what tends to come up is abstracts or references on commercial (often very subjectively toned) sites.

Indeed

 

Well no - I wasn't making an assumption in the bit you quoted that frequent viewing translates into actual violent assault. You seem to be stuck on the notion that anyone who questions the popular view of heavy porn consumption not being harmful is making a direct connection between porn consumption and violence

I quoted for brevity's sake. That entire paragraph is where I drew the conclusion, whereupon you made mention to them (they) and 'their victims/families' henceforth tying in the whole paragraph and "assuming" cause (frequent viewing of violent porn) to effect (their victims/families). I may have gotten a different response if I'd quoted the whole paragraph perhaps.

 

Studies referred to in the links I've posted suggest correlations between heavy porn use and sexual offending, but factors such as an abusive upbringing, alcohol consumption and a naturally aggressive temperament/psychopathy would, I would think, be far more influential.

Indeed, - great stuff. But how often have other factors gotten a run around here?

 

 

.

[A O]

If we went under your mindset of what *true* equality meant, that one gender, race or religious group wasn’t more prone to certain unequal conditions then another, and that fair treatment for *true* equality meant not lending a hand to groups that clearly were at a disadvantage, we would still have slaves and Jews would still be second class citizens.

Put it this way - if the majority of any gender suffered from a 'name-your-condition' situation, then we "may" indeed have cause for true inequality of some sort. But, if its less than 50%, and well less than 50% at that, then is it really a gender issue in terms of it being a natural occurrence or is it a conditional occurrence, i.e something that's bought about through a whole series of other factors and not simply because of being a man or a woman?

 

But that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about tageting people of a certain race or group and exploiting them for the pleasure of another.

While there's no doubt that some people, arguably mostly women, are being exploited within the porn industry, one of the solutions that I've offered up so far (a set of industry standards) will help negate that some what (it's near impossible to get totally get rid of exploitation no matter which field we talk about). Of course, it'll take time, a lot of time in fact, but hey, it's a start.

 

And yes A.O. Women DO have a responsiblity to themselves and this situation. We have the responsiblity to teach our daughters and son's to respect each other. And not think it's okay to use a gender as long as it's behind closed doors on a video. But women can't do it alone

Great, great. Parents have an equal responsibility here, its not limited to just the mother (and never has been). Most crime, I do believe, is caused by those who have come from a one-parent family. That is a been a big contributor to any increase in crime, an arguably a bigger contributor towards violence/abuse against women than porn ever has been, whereupon, porn simply becomes one outlet for their dysfunction. But deal to this problem and porn, look many other aspects of life, can be used in a fairly functional manner.

 

This is a great point to bring up. It's interesting how what most men focus on is how the buffoon dad is represented yet choose to ignore, or not even consider all the other stereotypes that are equally insulting to both genders.

The point JS, was not one of ignorance but questioning the validity of the image.

 

Does it matter? Isn't abuse of any kind given by men or woman wrong? Why is it that you can only argue the abuse of women if you talk about the abuse of men first?

Normally it doesn't matter and yes I'd rather address the abuse first and foremost but men are taking an absolute battering on this thread with the overwhelming implication here being - if you enjoy porn, if you're anything but against porn basically, then you essentially advocate for the abuse and disrespect or women. So, a great deal of my time here (as I mentioned when I first arrived here) is spent giving context to this topic.

 

Basically, if you can discuss this topic without blaming men for the 'majority' of the ills here and labeling them as a consequence, then who knows what we maybe able to achieve!

 

.

[Jersey Shortie]

Put it this way - if the majority of any gender suffered from a 'name-your-condition' situation, then we "may" indeed have cause for true inequality of some sort. But, if its less than 50%, and well less than 50% at that, then is it really a gender issue in terms of it being a natural occurrence or is it a conditional occurrence, i.e something that's bought about through a whole series of other factors and not simply because of being a man or a woman?

 

 

I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense to me. Why don't you be more specific in what it is you are trying to say. Right now it sounds like you think it's okay to degrade and humilate women because women are 50% of the population.

 

 

While there's no doubt that some people, arguably mostly women, are being exploited within the porn industry....

 

There you have it right there. You made my case for me. The thing is that most me ndo not care that it's wome nbeing exploited as long as they still get to pleasure themselves to it. Which expresses a significant lack of respect for the female spirit to begin with by alot of men. It's okay to exploit, use, humilate women because that's what we are here for right? That's the message alot of men are giving women by their ability to support, view and enjoy a medium that is based off the exploitation and use and abuse of women. And you know what,I think deep down men know this in their hearts and head but are unwilling to be strong enough to champion for what is right.

 

 

...one of the solutions that I've offered up so far (a set of industry standards) will help negate that some what (it's near impossible to get totally get rid of exploitation no matter which field we talk about). Of course, it'll take time, a lot of time in fact, but hey, it's a start.

 

A carefully constructed standard and set of rules designed to say how far one is or isn't allowed to exploit, abuse or humilate women. Interesting. I wonder what men would say to women setting up an *appropiate* set of rules that defines how far they are allowed to degrade and humilate men or just how much they are allowed to use men for their money and bank accounts.

 

 

Great, great. Parents have an equal responsibility here, its not limited to just the mother (and never has been). Most crime, I do believe, is caused by those who have come from a one-parent family. That is a been a big contributor to any increase in crime, an arguably a bigger contributor towards violence/abuse against women than porn ever has been, whereupon, porn simply becomes one outlet for their dysfunction. But deal to this problem and porn, look many other aspects of life, can be used in a fairly functional manner.

 

I've never heard that most crime is commeted by a one-parent family and i would love to see you back that up.

 

Regardless, what does that have to do with men or women taking responsiblity for teaching their children how to treat the other sex? First you want to make a case that it's up to women, that only women are responsible and men are allowed to act out and behave any way they please. And when I agree in the case that it IS up to women, and ADD that it's also up to men, you want to make a case against one-parent families instead of directly addressing men's responsiblity and part they play and contribuation to an industry that really has not true societal gains. The thing is you admit it that women are more exploited. So it comes at a higher price to women then to men. So not only are we the vicitims of a higher instance of exploitation, you want to make women also responsible for the complete issue. Well women can't do it alone and they would dearly love men to stand up for them instead of standing up for their pornography. Which sadly today is the case. Time and time again men make case and point and energy to defend and stand up for their pornography. Very little is ever said about standing up for women.

 

The point JS, was not one of ignorance but questioning the validity of the image.

 

Hey I agree, it has nothing to do with ignorance. It has to do with the fact that men want to be respected but they do not respect women. And that men are more offended by the protrayl of an idiot husband on tv then they are of women being slapped around, called names, brought pysical discomfrot and abuse, while they are mastubated to.

 

 

Normally it doesn't matter and yes I'd rather address the abuse first and foremost but men are taking an absolute battering on this thread with the overwhelming implication here being -

 

What battering are they taking? Because how dare women be upset that the men in their lives enjoy watching women humilated for their pleasure? The irony in trying to defend men for their degradation and the enjoyment they take in the dehumanation and objectifacation of women. Seriously, how dare us silly women! If men don't care how women are protrayed in porn, then why should women care if men are hurt by being called out for it?

 

 

if you enjoy porn, if you're anything but against porn basically, then you essentially advocate for the abuse and disrespect or women. So, a great deal of my time here (as I mentioned when I first arrived here) is spent giving context to this topic.

 

Well in part that is infact true. If you support a billion dollar industry that lets be honest, makes it's money off of the objectifcation and dehumanzation of women, then yes, you are advocate for the abuse and disrespect for women.

 

Basically, if you can discuss this topic without blaming men for the 'majority' of the ills here and labeling them as a consequence, then who knows what we maybe able to achieve!

[A O]

I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense to me. Why don't you be more specific in what it is you are trying to say. Right now it sounds like you think it's okay to degrade and humilate women because women are 50% of the population.

The context, which has more to do with my discussions with Des than you, is that women are victims and men abusers so there's inequality there based on a gender rather than a conditional level. I'm looking for a less blanket argument, as in some women and some men are abused or abusers rather than the automatic belief that we are one or the other.

 

There you have it right there. You made my case for me. The thing is that most me ndo not care that it's wome nbeing exploited as long as they still get to pleasure themselves to it.

First off, I've never disputed the fact, as is patently obvious. What I take issue with, again, is both the degree in which this happens, and in your case, the belief that we either take pleasure in, or think that its OK to exploit women. Again, its true for "some" but without doubt, if it were true for "most" you and women in general - would really know all about it!

 

A carefully constructed standard and set of rules designed to say how far one is or isn't allowed to exploit, abuse or humilate women. Interesting. I wonder what men would say to women setting up an *appropiate* set of rules that defines how far they are allowed to degrade and humilate men or just how much they are allowed to use men for their money and bank accounts.

It's the same set of rules and standards that helps protect workers, in the western world, especially. As for the male aspect, I have no sympathy for men who allow themselves to be used. it is all about personal ressponibilty, no matter which gender you are.

 

I've never heard that most crime is commeted by a one-parent family and i would love to see you back that up.

One far from educated Google search netted this quote reasonable link (which in itself contains a series of links)

 

http://www.divorcereform.org/crime.html

 

Regardless, what does that have to do with men or women taking responsiblity for teaching their children how to treat the other sex?

In a nutshell - kids from single parent families are "less likely" to have been educated or shown/experienced what a healthy relationship between sexes is or looks like. Everything flows on from there.

 

First you want to make a case that it's up to women, that only women are responsible and men are allowed to act out and behave any way they please.

The simple fact of the matter is that you only ever talked about women here in a reactive sense, as in, this, that and the other is going to happen to them. Des, he/she talks in a sense of women are victims and men abusers. I simply added a rather pertinent side to this equation that neither of you seemed interested in debating. As for the final part of your sentence - NO. Simply no.

 

 

.

[Taramere]

Very interesting and informative link without even having to drill down too!

 

Thanks. It's a shame it didn't reference a few more up to date studies, though. Especially given the advent of the Internet.

 

I quoted for brevity's sake. That entire paragraph is where I drew the conclusion, whereupon you made mention to them (they) and 'their victims/families' henceforth tying in the whole paragraph and "assuming" cause (frequent viewing of violent porn) to effect (their victims/families). I may have gotten a different response if I'd quoted the whole paragraph perhaps.

 

Right. Throughout that paragraph, I was thinking in terms of people who are desensitised or lacking in empathy (and might therefore think rape isn't such a big deal) rather than people who commit sexual offences.

 

Indeed, - great stuff. But how often have other factors gotten a run around here?

 

In the porn threads, they don't tend to that I've seen. In a thread about the typical profile of a sex offender, a broader range of issues would be looked at I'm sure. Poor emotional control, self medication with drugs and alcohol triggering violent behaviour. High aggression, low self esteem - or in some cases unrealistically high self esteem and an unrealistic sense of entitlement (eg narcissism). Absence of empathy, psychopathy, a history of having been abused themselves, and therefore being motivated to become a persecutor to escape the "victim" feeling....

 

People who are, in short, thoroughly messed up human beings who imagine they can escape feeling messed up by inflicting it on someone else.

 

I think with porn, it's a particularly emotive subject for a lot of women because probably most women know at least one person who has been raped - or may even have been raped themselves. The idea of a brand of porn which very clearly states that it's depicting violent rape for entertainment value, and adds in as many violent and humiliating aspects as the producer can dream up (the kind of thing already discussed in this thread) is, quite naturally I think, absolutely abhorrent to rape victims or to people whose empathy for rape victims exceeds their concern for a porn maker's right to free speech.

 

Which is, I think, where Jersey Shortie's coming from. She's not able to discuss this subject without getting very emotional and distressed about it....and I think at the heart of it is a sense of hopelessness about ever being able to have a trusting, healthy relationship with a man. Although she's been posting angrily to you, I think you're posting back in a fairly neutral and reasonably compassionate manner. I suspect you probably understand and sympathise with her distress more than she realises.

 

The two of you won't reach any kind of consensus in a discussion like this, though, because whereas you're seeing porn as something that should be monitored and regulated in order to minimise abuses occurring, Jersey Shortie just wants it to stop altogether - which will, of course, never happen.

[A O]

In the porn threads, they don't tend to that I've seen.

I see.

 

In a thread about the typical profile of a sex offender, a broader range of issues would be looked at I'm sure. Poor emotional control, self medication with drugs and alcohol triggering violent behaviour. High aggression, low self esteem - or in some cases unrealistically high self esteem and an unrealistic sense of entitlement (eg narcissism). Absence of empathy, psychopathy, a history of having been abused themselves, and therefore being motivated to become a persecutor to escape the "victim" feeling.... People who are, in short, thoroughly messed up human beings who imagine they can escape feeling messed up by inflicting it on someone else.

Wow, now that is quite a range. Strangely enough, I can't recall ever having a discussion about sex offenders before. Nonetheless, sex offenders have never been at the 'forefront' of my mind through all this. Its every other layer down basically and trying to work out the numbers from there.

 

I think with porn, it's a particularly emotive subject for a lot of women because probably most women know at least one person who has been raped - or may even have been raped themselves

I think that most adults know someone whose suffered. Myself, I have to admit that I have a disconnect between porn and rape. One reason for that, I feel, is because rape was around a long, long time, in my world, before porn in anything other than non-paper form (and limited to the likes of Playboy/Penthouse at that) happened along.

 

The rest of your post - interesting again.

 

.

[Des]

You want to talk about acceptance, the simple fact of the matter is that you're unaccepting of any view other than your own, and I'm certainly not the only person to experience this within this thread.

 

My views are shaped through a lot of factors, I'm not this hard shell of ideology you try to paint me as. I simply do not believe in many of your perspectives because I too once held onto them, and have since felt that I've come to a clearer understanding of them. If I were so narrow minded by my very nature, my views on this would have never undergone such a dramatic change in the first place.

 

And what were these (porn-influenced) changes and what are these views based on?

 

See, before there was no question on vast differences between then and now, as it can easily be perceived without expert analysis or studies. But suddenly you'd prefer I bring forth such a study...

 

It's not a matter of force, it's the ability to accept another point of view, something that quite clearly, you find extremely hard to do as evidenced by the keenness and frequency to which you negatively judge my views. If I don't agree with you, then naturally I must be this, that and the other according to you, and so typical for a man and men in general to boot, apparently!

 

After being given three chances, you still refuse to answer the question. In no way, shape, or form am I being ridiculous for asking you a simple question, a question that you are avoiding like the plague.

 

Again.

 

You defend and support, an industry, that takes a large part in disrespectful, degrading, and abusive behavior towards women. No? Are you not in defense of an industry that is guilty of this?

 

Why?

 

Is it because of the fact that it is not the nature of some porn (the porn you watch)?

 

I have more of a problem with this avoidance, than I do with the answer you can't bring it upon yourself to give. Because this is more to the root of the problem.

 

Well, again, I'm sure you have proof to verify your claims.

 

Of course, I suppose I need hard evidence for any instance of anything within our society having any effect or influence on anyone... because it's just such an outrageous probability.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Des

[A O]

My views are shaped through a lot of factors, I'm not this hard shell of ideology you try to paint me as

A hard shell of ideology - never entered my head. A person who has an overwhelming belief in their own views to the point of dismissing any view that doesn't agree with you and being very disparaging about it all in the process, yep - now that rings a bell.

 

I simply do not believe in many of your perspectives because I too once held onto them, and have since felt that I've come to a clearer understanding of them

Your problem is that you have tunnel vision no matter which side of the debate you're on and you have a mistaken belief that people think like you as well.

 

See, before there was no question on vast differences between then and now, as it can easily be perceived without expert analysis or studies. But suddenly you'd prefer I bring forth such a study...

I ask for evidence because of the above - because there's absolutely no room for any other view than your own. You're adamant that your stance is the one and only stance anyone here can take. And yet you initially based this view on little more than your own opinion. People who behave this way, yeah, they better bring a lot more to the table than those who are simply expressing a view.

 

After being given three chances, you still refuse to answer the question. In no way, shape, or form am I being ridiculous for asking you a simple question, a question that you are avoiding like the plague.

The point here is Des, you want me to answer your question based on how "you" think. That's how dismissive you are of my views. Many men, back in the day, used to treat women this way, some still do - I feel for anyone that has to put up with that. Not a great feeling at all.

 

 

.

[Scottie]

I have to admit I like watching this kind of porn, I never taken part in any sexual activity like it though.

[Des]

A person who has an overwhelming belief in their own views to the point of dismissing any view that doesn't agree with you and being very disparaging

 

I am not dismissing your views AO, my problem is with the approach you take in argument. For every instance of something bad or negative pointed out (about abuse, violent porn etc...), you come back with what seems like an attempt at justification, or you choose one line out of a paragraph, the line that is easiest to smooth over with another statement. The classic "they do it too" arguments, making a point to fault anyone/anything except the porn itself, spinning the blame away from men as the primary culprit of what we are discussing, which is in fact, the abuse of women on film (you believe it's one-sided to simply address this directly), and how they are contributors/perpetrators through this porn.

 

Your problem is that you have tunnel vision no matter which side of the debate you're on and you have a mistaken belief that people think like you as well.

 

Your problem right here, is that you think you understand me and how I am hardwired to think, when you don't... Hey, wasn't that something you've accused me of before?

 

I've looked at this from many sides, many perspectives, and I've decided what makes the most sense to me, so far. I have no ulterior motive in this, my views are not aligned with some personal agenda, other than to argue for what I feel is right, for the good of humanity, not for myself.

 

You're adamant that your stance is the one and only stance anyone here can take. And yet you initially based this view on little more than your own opinion. People who behave this way, yeah, they better bring a lot more to the table than those who are simply expressing a view.

 

On several occasions you've pulled things right out of your butt as well, if, that's what you're accusing me of doing. Considering, so far, you've given me maybe one link to ever "back up" what you have said. I've given quite a few more. Just because you think I'm hardheaded, doesn't mean it's anymore important I prove myself than it is for you to prove yourself.

 

The point here is Des, you want me to answer your question based on how "you" think. That's how dismissive you are of my views. Many men, back in the day, used to treat women this way, some still do - I feel for anyone that has to put up with that. Not a great feeling at all.

 

I felt that I was asking the question from a very fair angle, a viewpoint that we both agreed upon, honestly. Lets take a closer look at it just to make sure, shall we?

 

You defend and support (You do not hide the fact that one of the reasons for your participation in this thread, is a defense of porn, correct? You are consumer of Pornography, correct? Which means, in theory you contribute to and give support to it, right?, an industry (We agree it's an industry? I'm supposing.), that takes a large part in (We both agree that there is now an overwhelming and increasing frequency of the following within modern porn, do we not?) disrespectful, degrading, and abusive behavior towards women.

 

Why? (Why is it that you still support this industry, knowing well what it takes part in, what it does in itself, and how it could effect others?)

 

Is it because of the fact that it is not the nature of some porn (the porn you watch)? Is this true?

[A O]

I am not dismissing your views AO

Examples of dismissive behavior....

 

"I still feel that you are afraid of what you might see, like a lot of other men and women out there, you don't want see that perspective, you want to pretend it does not exist."

 

"You ask for solutions a lot, but you tend to either shoot down, or ignore my attempts. "A respectful use and creation of porn" - not realistic, I just don't see that happening and I don't think anyone else here suggests that they do either, certainly not with the direction things are going now. Things are not getting better, they're getting worse. I think you can kiss that idea goodbye. The conditions need elimination, not improvement, in my opinion"

 

"What? You really makes no sense. If I see two people as being unequal in a society, and I work towards making them equal, that is not equality?"

 

"You then went on to naively suggest the growing bulk of modern porn was "the bottom of the industry, and it needs cleaned up". Maybe that naivety is a sign of your older age, as you've said. Because porn isn't what is used to be, and you're not really accepting of what it has become"

 

Your problem right here, is that you think you understand me and how I am hardwired to think, when you don't... Hey, wasn't that something you've accused me of before?

No and again, that's your problem as evidenced by the likes of this - " I simply do not believe in many of your perspectives because I too once held onto them"

 

...and this - "You don't want to think more into than it just being "sex on film", so as to not kill it's effect. You need to hold the perspective that everything is all well and good, it's just sex and "just natural", as you keep saying, it does no wrong, there is no harm, etc... But I think you know better, I really do. I too was once in denial."

 

...and, well, I could go on. Perhaps your single biggest problem here isn't what "I" say, it's what "you" think I say....and then you ramble off from there.

 

On several occasions you've pulled things right out of your butt as well, if, that's what you're accusing me of doing.

Nope, butt talk isn't me, and I've never thought to think it being your either - when you're talking about your own views that is. When you presume to talk for me though, well....

 

I felt that I was asking the question from a very fair angle, a viewpoint that we both agreed upon, honestly.

Disagree. You're asking a loaded question. I have not agreed to the summation that you've based your question(s) on. Again, presumption got the better of you.

 

.

 

 

.

[Des]

Examples of dismissive behavior....

 

The first was admittedly a presumption, based on your suspicious dodging of my "evidence".

 

The second was merely my opinion, disagreeing with yours.

 

The third one was... as far as I can see, in my opinion, what true equality is.

 

The fourth, until right now... I thought we agreed on the negative trending of modern porn, and that type of porns number one consumer base. Maybe now for the sake of this argument, we don't? Flip-flopped on that?

 

Me disagreeing with your opinion, is not the same thing as simply dismissing your views. It may see that way to you, but I'm not just waiting for you to present a view on something so I can toss it aside.

 

No and again, that's your problem as evidenced by the likes of this - " I simply do not believe in many of your perspectives because I too once held onto them"

 

Whatever you mean by that.

 

...and this -

 

Yeah, there's a whole stock pile of presumptions there, sure, so you can keep picking from that pile, by all means. But again, all for the same reason as I stated above. That was all in response to your dodging (specifically to that video), which can become quite frustrating. I guess you could say you royally dismissed the opportunity to see the views expressed within that video.

 

But it's more so what I think you feel, rather than what I think you said. Which of course, I can't know for sure, but with some of the crap you've pulled like the whole dodging of the video with no good excuse, gives me an idea... you even commented on how that dodge might be appear on your part when I first called you on it. You lead me to presume AO, when you *gasp* dismiss what I offer you in this debate.

 

Disagree. You're asking a loaded question. I have not agreed to the summation that you've based your question(s) on. Again, presumption got the better of you.

 

Well, I just gave you another chance, pointing out every aspect of the question so as to figure out where we disagree with it as being fair. But again, you didn't address that. Instead, you choose to vaguely state that you disagree with it... again.

 

This is why I chose to detail further every other word of it, I want to know what it is that we are not in agreement on that's keeping you from answering the question.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Des

[A O]

Me disagreeing with your opinion, is not the same thing as simply dismissing your views.

You do both. Rather than simply stating your case and justifying why, you'll write off my views too. You also give an overwhelming impression that your stance is the only stance anyone here can possibly take but most noticeably, you'll either apply meanings to what I've said that were never intended or you'll simply presume to talk for me. And all the while my views, well....what were they again?

 

That was all in response to your dodging (specifically to that video), which can become quite frustrating. I guess you could say you royally dismissed the opportunity to see the views expressed within that video.

No dodge nor dismissal. because I both addressed the issue and justified my reasoning why without writing the video itself off. Later on you presented evidence that satisfied that very same reasoning.

 

You lead me to presume AO, when you *gasp* dismiss what I offer you in this debate.

Now that's a shocker - its all "my" fault that "you" behave this way. C'mon.

 

.

[Jersey Shortie]

AO: The context, which has more to do with my discussions with Des than you, is that women are victims and men abusers so there's inequality there based on a gender rather than a conditional level. I'm looking for a less blanket argument, as in some women and some men are abused or abusers rather than the automatic belief that we are one or the other.

 

You are really arguing over semantics. I've seen this argument before and I think it's what people argue when they having nothing to say to the direct topic. It's a diversion. I never saw Des say all men or all women were this way or that and I rather not waste my most probable impending carpel tunnel on it. The old "blanket argument" is infact an old blanket arguement itself.

 

And while I agree with the statement that some women and some men are abused or abusers, there seems to be a prolific amount of abuse towards women in man-centric medium. And if not abuse, degradation and objectification. Which is infact, a form of abuse when you treat someone like a thing and not a person. And to take it a step further, what of the men or women that do not abuse or get abused directly but view medium of men or women being abused? I think we can safely say that more men then women get off on that kind of viewership. And that more men then women are usually the ones abusing. Now, you are going to try to talk around this, you always do. But I think most men here, even yourself, are intelligent enough to realize the truth in my words here.

 

JerseyShortie: You made my case for me. The thing is that most me ndo not care that it's wome nbeing exploited as long as they still get to pleasure themselves to it.

AO: First off, I've never disputed the fact, as is patently obvious. What I take issue with, again, is both the degree in which this happens, and in your case, the belief that we either take pleasure in, or think that its OK to exploit women. Again, its true for "some" but without doubt, if it were true for "most" you and women in general - would really know all about it!

What belief? It's a fact that enough men take pleasure in the objectification and exploitation of women for it to be a more then billion dollar industry. It's a fact when men say things like "I'm a man, of course I like porn"; that is just as good as saying, "I'm a man, of course I like when women are used and objectifed". There is no such thing as porn withouth objectification. And men say it's OKAY every time they watch another movie with another 18-25 year old girl on her hands and knees having sex. That is nothing but objectification. Whether that girl in the movie agreed to it or not. It doesn't matter. What matters is that millions of fathers, brothers, husbands, boyfriends, uncles, grandfathers..etc etc etc. are infact choosing porn everyday and looking at it. And by their support and interet in the industry they are infact saying just as you described. That it's okay to objectify women and that they DO take pleasure in it.

And guess what? We do know about! And that is why so many women are frustrated over it. And why you see a war between the sexes. And why women feel axcious and betrayed and confused by their male partner's porn use. And why so many women CLEARLY see the degradation, objectification and abuse. It's easy for men to sit there and not do a thing because it's not men being abused and objectified to the degree women are at a billion dollards + worth of entertainment. I actually believe it's ignorant to say that men infact don't enjoy objectfying women and using them and take pleasure from it. Why does it make men feel good to use women? Maybe that's what we need to ask oursevles. Why has real masculinty broken down that now men need to see women used and objectified and even abused, to feel pleasure? How much or real masculinity has broken down that the things that excite men are so over the top and fake, it's the only thing that visually gets them going? Maybe the big lie here is that the real insecurity is not with women but with men and the porn industry. And maybe that is why men inhereninty still do and always feel a certain amount of shame for their porn use. Because porn, in the end, doesn't make them feel more like men, even while those are the feelings they seek out, but it makes them feel like less of a man.

 

AO: It's the same set of rules and standards that helps protect workers, in the western world, especially.

 

I'll say it again. A carefully constructed standard and set of rules designed to say how far one is or isn't allowed to exploit, abuse or humilate or objectify women. Interesting. I wonder what men would say to women setting up an *appropiate* set of rules that defines how far they are allowed to degrade and humilate men or just how much they are allowed to use men for their money and bank accounts.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that you only ever talked about women here in a reactive sense, as in, this, that and the other is going to happen to them. Des, he/she talks in a sense of women are victims and men abusers. I simply added a rather pertinent side to this equation that neither of you seemed interested in debating. As for the final part of your sentence - NO. Simply no.

 

I have no clue what you even mean by this. In porn, it is the case more times then not that the woman is the victim and the man is more of the dominate/abuser rule. Lets be honest, porn isn't about pleasing the woman or making sure she is having a good time. It's abou twhat is going to get the man off the fastest. Often the most shocking things since so many men have entrenched themselves in porn, it's been esculating to be more and more graphic and shocking. It is often the woman put in the position of vunerbility and the man in the position of power. This leads to a situation where women are abused more then the men. Men do not want to see other men abused and shown weak. However, they are clearly okay with seeing women put in this position of powerlessness. You want to argue that everything is "equal" and it plain isn't.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Tara:

 

I think with porn, it's a particularly emotive subject for a lot of women because probably most women know at least one person who has been raped - or may even have been raped themselves. The idea of a brand of porn which very clearly states that it's depicting violent rape for entertainment value, and adds in as many violent and humiliating aspects as the producer can dream up (the kind of thing already discussed in this thread) is, quite naturally I think, absolutely abhorrent to rape victims or to people whose empathy for rape victims exceeds their concern for a porn maker's right to free speech.

 

It also worries me because it makes me wonder how mmany men with women in their lives, how many men you see on the street or picking up their kids from practice are going behind closed doors to support a medium that is all about the abuse and humilation of women. Makes you wonder and it makes me feel like the lives men lead, the words of support they say they give their familiies, is a big lie if they can support an industry that clearly doesn't give a crap about women. It makes me wonder how men really think of women, what men really think of women, and if they don't infact only see the worth in women as far as their bodies, age that we aren't infact only a couple of holes and a pair of breasts. Because that is really the mentality of porn. That women are just something to stick yourself into.

Which is, I think, where Jersey Shortie's coming from. She's not able to discuss this subject without getting very emotional and distressed about it....and I think at the heart of it is a sense of hopelessness about ever being able to have a trusting, healthy relationship with a man. Although she's been posting angrily to you, I think you're posting back in a fairly neutral and reasonably compassionate manner. I suspect you probably understand and sympathise with her distress more than she realises.

 

The two of you won't reach any kind of consensus in a discussion like this, though, because whereas you're seeing porn as something that should be monitored and regulated in order to minimise abuses occurring, Jersey Shortie just wants it to stop altogether - which will, of course, never happen.

 

Well this is true. I do get very upset and distressed. And I do feel rather hopeless about it and my faith and trust in men is pretty drained. I know that men are never goign to give up porn.

 

I don't know if AO sympathizes with me but I do understand that ne posts very resonably and doesn't resort to bad antics and he should get kudos for that.

[Des]

You also give an overwhelming impression that your stance is the only stance anyone here

 

You give some overwhelming impressions yourself, by the way you talk around so many statements without addressing them or simply choosing to ignore them.

 

No dodge nor dismissal. because I both addressed the issue and justified my reasoning why without writing the video itself off. Later on you presented evidence that satisfied that very same reasoning.

 

In fact, it was all of the above.

 

The dodge - "I might get around to it, but I think I'm showing my age a bit here, but YouTube doesn't do much for me."

 

The dismissal - "If this thing had any real merit to it, then it would have found a much bigger home than YouTube."

 

The write off - "The problem with this film, without even having to look at it, is that it's not an objective piece of work."

 

Sorry AO, that is not justification.

 

Now that's a shocker - its all "my" fault that "you" behave this way. C'mon.

 

So hard to believe you lead me to those presumptions now?

 

"Originally Posted by Des

Quite a cop-out on your part."

 

"Originally Posted by A O

Your thought process is understandable,"

 

Yet now, my thought process maybe isn't so understandable to you! Now it's just ridiculous!

 

----------

 

And again, no return response about the simple question. I was left only with another vague statement of us disagreeing or having different views. Even though I brought it to your attention that I wanted to get down to what it was about the question the we disagreed upon... hence the breakdown of my own question. Not surprisingly, you avoid it again.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Des

[A O]

You are really arguing over semantics. I've seen this argument before and I think it's what people argue when they having nothing to say to the direct topic. It's a diversion. I never saw Des say all men or all women were this way or that and I rather not waste my most probable impending carpel tunnel on it

Now, if I said "women enjoyed porn too", your counter would be something akin to - not anywhere near as much as men do. Basically, that argument would imply a measure of degree, much the same as I'm trying to ascertain. If you choose to call this stance semantic or a diversion, then so would your argument be also. As for Des, Des has a penchant for talking about men and women without any sort of a qualifier so what's been said can be interpreted in a few ways - context wise.

 

And that more men then women are usually the ones abusing. Now, you are going to try to talk around this, you always do..

I don't know if you can separate violence from abuse but if one can, then at this stage, I certainly have little reason to doubt you.

 

It's a fact when men say things like "I'm a man, of course I like porn"; that is just as good as saying, "I'm a man, of course I like when women are used and objectifed".

I lot of people would not see this the same way, be it men or women.

 

There is no such thing as porn withouth objectification.

Well, we've been down this path before, but if you have a problem with objectification, in its popular sense, not proper sense - then advocate for your change not only amongst men, but amongst women also. Lets totally rid ourselves of anything remotely approaching any form of objectification be it porn, fashion, film/entertainment/media or the entire beauty industry. My point being, do you have a problem with objectification itself or simply with men objectifying women?

 

I have no clue what you even mean by this.

The context was personal responsibility. Both sexes are personally responsible for their actions, its as simple as that.

 

You want to argue that everything is "equal" and it plain isn't.

No, I just want context.

 

.

[A O]

You give some overwhelming impressions yourself, by the way you talk around so many statements without addressing them or simply choosing to ignore them.

I don't talk around statements, I do ignore minor points mostly for brevity's sake, that much is true.

 

In fact, it was all of the above.

The dodge - "I might get around to it, but I think I'm showing my age a bit here, but YouTube doesn't do much for me."

The dismissal - "If this thing had any real merit to it, then it would have found a much bigger home than YouTube."

The write off - "The problem with this film, without even having to look at it, is that it's not an objective piece of work."

First off, I didn't dodge as evidenced by the fact that you actually had an answer to quote in the first place! The next two points call into question the validity of the video without either dismissing or writing the thing off entirely.

 

So hard to believe you lead me to those presumptions now?

"Originally Posted by Des

Quite a cop-out on your part."

"Originally Posted by A O

Your thought process is understandable,"

Yet now, my thought process maybe isn't so understandable to you! Now it's just ridiculous!

Well Des, its one thing to understand why you think a certain way, its totally another to blame someone else for how you think! And boy, haven't there been a fair few more occasions when that has happened.

 

And again, no return response about the simple question. I was left only with another vague statement of us disagreeing or having different views. Even though I brought it to your attention that I wanted to get down to what it was about the question the we disagreed upon... hence the breakdown of my own question. Not surprisingly, you avoid it again

Ok, lets deal to this again. You're asking me to answer a question, based on your viewpoint, a viewpoint that you assumed I'd agreed to, and you continually ask the same question even though I've pointed all this out to you on more than one occasion now. Well, this all just highlights what I've been saying.

 

.

Edited December 19, 2009 by A O

[Juniper22]

I'm surprised MY thread hasn't been closed already.

[sam light]

I'm surprised MY thread hasn't been closed already.

I agree, a padlock is coming. Too bad, your post was thoughtful.

[Des]

I'm surprised MY thread hasn't been closed already.

 

Why? Is debate of such a topic generally not allowed? Is there a only a certain length of discussion permitted? I feel everyone has been fairly civilized about it. I think it's a pretty important discussion really.

 

I don't understand why it would be closed.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Des

[Taramere]

Why? Is debate of such a topic generally not allowed? Is there a only a certain length of discussion permitted? I feel everyone has been fairly civilized about it. I think it's a pretty important discussion really.

 

I don't understand why it would be closed.

 

I don't either. Threads only tend to get closed when they go way off topic or when personal attacks are made. I can't see evidence of this thread being misused for either purpose.

 

I'm surprised MY thread hasn't been closed already.

 

Are you unhappy with the direction it's taken? Usually people are quite pleased when threads they start provoke a bit of lively, on topic discussion.

[Gold Pile]

Closure is coming, but to answer your question.....

 

I like just about anything that turns her on. Some people (women and men) crave violent sexual humiliation. Some just the humiliation, some just the violence.

Like anal, it hurts...a great thing for some, bad for others.

 

The trouble with this and all porn is that it's mostly fake and sometimes actresses are forced (blatant or financial) to perform. But some of it is great.

 

I can dish it out moderately and can even take small portions of such sex. I can't generate harsh violence, not can I take much of it.

[Juniper22]

Why? Is debate of such a topic generally not allowed? Is there a only a certain length of discussion permitted? I feel everyone has been fairly civilized about it. I think it's a pretty important discussion really.

 

I don't understand why it would be closed.

 

 

I made a general statement about how I can't believe its not been closed. I said I couldn't believe it hadn't been closed, not that I wanted it closed, there is a difference. WHY? Because I've seen far many threads get closed over "debates" that were actually on topic, but just continued on and on and on forever. Kind of like this one, around and around it goes. I've even seen mods come in and make a statement about closing it because it was just continual banter. Anyway, I think if everyone involved that is doing the debating is getting something from it, then continue on, you can tell alot about people who debate, what they are into, or what they are for or against just by watching their debates.

[Jersey Shortie]

Closure is coming, but to answer your question.....

 

I like just about anything that turns her on. Some people (women and men) crave violent sexual humiliation. Some just the humiliation, some just the violence.

Like anal, it hurts...a great thing for some, bad for others.

 

The trouble with this and all porn is that it's mostly fake and sometimes actresses are forced (blatant or financial) to perform. But some of it is great.

 

I can dish it out moderately and can even take small portions of such sex. I can't generate harsh violence, not can I take much of it.

 

 

The trouble is that most of this porn is directed to women. Not men. SO yes, it's very clear why it's easy for men to take and watch. Which is why it is also so distressing to many women. I am right arent' I?You aren't watching violent or humilating porn of men. You are probably watching it of women. Because most men today do believe it's okay to humilate and use women. You guys are lucky you are not treated in teh same fashion. Getting men to care is also something that I don't think is going to happen.

[Gold Pile]

The trouble is that most of this porn is directed to women. Not men. SO yes, it's very clear why it's easy for men to take and watch. Which is why it is also so distressing to many women. I am right arent' I?You aren't watching violent or humilating porn of men. You are probably watching it of women. Because most men today do believe it's okay to humilate and use women. You guys are lucky you are not treated in teh same fashion. Getting men to care is also something that I don't think is going to happen.

Probably you're right about the majority of this porn features women being humiliated. But check out femdom porn.

 

I don't think (and I'll bet most of us don't) think its ok to humiliate the average woman. Male or female, it must be something they're into.