Do you guys like this kind of porn?

[A O]

Quite a cop-out on your part. Short of mailing you an actual dvd of it, which you can properly buy on-line, YouTube is the easy alternative. I recommend you do "get around to it", if you so desire the hardcore proof you were asking for.

Your thought process is understandable, nonetheless, I've been around this game a long time now - I know what evidence truly catches my attention!

 

On the flip side of the coin, for two people who have extremely strong views on this topic, neither of you appear to have much in the way of reputable evidence to back up your views.

 

I was merely taking a quote from a portion of the video interviewing a porn producer, whom I would expect to have a bit of insight about the future of the industry.

I know, my comment wasn't aimed at you. My own comment, while initially an original thought, I have since seen being advocated by (female) porn producers in the UK.

 

.

[exotichottie4evr]

i like a lil booty spank an bite etc. but if some man forced me till i choked/started to vomit or hit my boobies ooo man. I would flip out..HED better wish he wouldnt. MY evil side would get him back 10 times.

PLUS your just screwd up to think that real pain/sickness is hot. ITS NOT.

oral etc should be fun..playful an feel hot.

[Des]

Your thought process is understandable, nonetheless, I've been around this game a long time now - I know what evidence truly catches my attention!

 

Let's see, I think I've given three different and compelling instances of "evidence" this far in the discussion, yet none of it is to your pleasing. If the last piece didn't catch your attention, you must've looked the other way.

 

On the flip side of the coin, for two people who have extremely strong views on this topic, neither of you appear to have much in the way of reputable evidence to back up your views.

 

What are you saying, my sources are lies/liars? The sources of major broadcasting networks like CBS and ABC have no reputation or track record? Scholars from well respected universities who make documentaries are not trustworthy? What?!?

 

If you want to talk about porn effecting relationships or influencing attitudes of young people (as we were), one portion of this film tells about how desensitization does just that. One young man, admits to how he desensitized his girlfriend. He initially just played porn with anal sex in front of her "watched it with her", which was his fetish, to which he admits she was at first disgusted. He said that he just kept on playing it over and over until eventually "she had no reaction to it", she became desensitized and saw it as normal, so as to get what he wanted.

 

Just goes to show you how easily this works. It only takes so much exposure to it before one becomes desensitized, and thusly what they see becomes very "normal" or possible. This is why the "fantasy vs. reality" theory doesn't hold up, and why porn is changing attitudes and behaviors. Porn does not act as fantasy, what it really does is convey ideas of sexuality and sexual relations, ideas that become normalized through repetition.

 

It's a bit disturbing that a lot men idealize some of this within their "fantasy", but what is worse is young women themselves becoming desensitized after they try and take notice of what the men are showing more interest in than them (which studies have shown), what it is that's replacing them.

[A O]

Let's see, I think I've given three different and compelling instances of "evidence" this far in the discussion, yet none of it is to your pleasing. If the last piece didn't catch your attention, you must've looked the other way.

One from CBS, one from YouTube, and I don't know what the other one was. Nothing from any major academic study or any Government organization or even any major news service (CNN, BBC for example). If the world is undergoing, or about to undergo, a fundamental change in attitude, as you assert, then one would expect a lot more evidence than this.

 

What are you saying, my sources are lies/liars?

Never crossed my mind.

 

The sources of major broadcasting networks like CBS and ABC have no reputation or track record?

Depends on the size and scope of what's been presented also.

 

Scholars from well respected universities who make documentaries are not trustworthy? What?!?

Mentioned them quite some time ago - look again for my answer.

 

If you want to talk about porn effecting relationships or influencing attitudes of young people (as we were), one portion of this film tells about how desensitization does just that.

The problem with this film, without even having to look at it, is that it's not an objective piece of work. For every film (or whatever it is) like this, someone could easily produce a counter. If you want to produce an anti-porn, pro-porn piece, finding like-minded souls to substantiate one's case is a relatively simple exercise. What is a lot harder to do, a lot harder to argue against though are government and academic based studies (governmental studies especially), whereupon their focus primarily centres around the public good, moreso than any specific ideology or viewpoint, which can often be the case of the smaller studies/reports.

 

Therefore, if people's attitudes are changing, if the world is changing, then these changes should be reflected with real statistics or observations/conclusions based on real stats or studies.

 

 

.

[Des]

One from CBS, one from YouTube, and I don't know what the other one was. Nothing from any major academic study or any Government organization or even any major news service (CNN, BBC for example).

 

YouTube is not the source of this video or it's study, obviously, somebody just uploaded the film on there. If you want to look into who is behind the film, then by all means. I find it very credible, as credible as any academic study.

 

ABC and CBS are more well established and respected here in their news broadcast than the likes of a cable news organization like CNN. Though I'd be willing to bet I could find another report/look into pornography and it's effects, as reported by CNN.

 

Governmental study? Like the government cares? Pshh.

 

If the world is undergoing, or about to undergo, a fundamental change in attitude, as you assert, then one would expect a lot more evidence than this.

 

I've already explained this change as not being an overnight thing, but that's what you're suggesting to see presented in a study. If you want a day and night change, just think about the attitudes and behaviors of young people in the 50s compared to present day. Does there really need to be a mountain of evidence to prove this vast difference? Beyond what we see on a daily basis?

 

The problem with this film, without even having to look at it, is that it's not an objective piece of work. For every film (or whatever it is) like this, someone could easily produce a counter. If you want to produce an anti-porn, pro-porn piece, finding like-minded souls to substantiate one's case is a relatively simple exercise.

 

Write it off, before you even see it. But there were plenty of "pro-porn" perspectives in the film.

 

I still feel that you are afraid of what you might see, like a lot of other men and women out there, you don't want see that perspective, you want to pretend it does not exist. It's easy for us to block out the bad side of things and just focus on what brings us gratification. You don't want to think more into than it just being "sex on film", so as to not kill it's effect. You need to hold the perspective that everything is all well and good, it's just sex and "just natural", as you keep saying, it does no wrong, there is no harm, etc... But I think you know better, I really do. I too was once in denial.

 

What I really don't understand, is what your bottom line is anymore in this ongoing argument. You initially chimed into this thread calling Jersey a prude and claiming - "Now, as for porn, when used respectfully, legally and in a balanced manner, porn use is perfectly healthy." As we have concluded in our debating, there is nothing "respectful" about self-gratifying through another's objectification. It is most often used by younger adults and minors in an illegal manner, stolen from the Internet. Often to their excessive use and over indulgence, quite an unbalanced manner.

 

You then went on to naively suggest the growing bulk of modern porn was "the bottom of the industry, and it needs cleaned up". Maybe that naivety is a sign of your older age, as you've said. Because porn isn't what is used to be, and you're not really accepting of what it has become. Since I've started debating you, you've "agreed" with probably 80% of my points... so I don't see why you're still fighting me, denying the evidence I give you about modern porn and its effects on youth, or as you see it "how the bottom of the industry triggers psychopaths". Denial? Guilt? Just not wanting to be wrong?

Edited December 14, 2009 by Des

[Jersey Shortie]

Des, all around, beautifully done. I'm in 100% agreement with ALL your comments and I believe that AO rather pick out one liners of yours to comment on then address the hardcore evidence you provided. I am going to take a look at those videos myself in a little while.

 

The truth is most men do not want to look past themselves or the reality of the porn industry.

[RobM]

The truth is most men do not want to look past themselves or the reality of the porn industry.

 

Have you considered that maybe it's easier for you to blame porn for all your unhappiness than to look within yourself and find out if you are in fact the source.

[Jersey Shortie]

Have you considered that maybe it's easier for you to blame porn for all your unhappiness than to look within yourself and find out if you are in fact the source.

 

I know I am far from perfect Rob and have many things to work on. All of us do. What does that have to do with my view on porn?

[A O]

ABC and CBS are more well established and respected here in their news broadcast than the likes of a cable news organization like CNN. Though I'd be willing to bet I could find another report/look into pornography and it's effects, as reported by CNN.

I take your point about CBS and ABC News being big in the US. Likewise, both CNN and the BBC are big on a global scale. As for finding further evidence from the likes of CNN, please do - I encourage it.

 

Governmental study? Like the government cares? Pshh.

I find it hard to believe that the government of the world's most powerful nation doesn't care about its people. Now that's potentially the scariest thing in this whole thread. Nonetheless, there are other avenues be it state wide, city wide, county wide, etc, that information can be gathered from.

 

I've already explained this change as not being an overnight thing, but that's what you're suggesting to see presented in a study.

I understand what you're saying, nonetheless it isn't too hard to see current trends and predict future trends when presented with the right information. The US, is apparently undergoing a change in consumer attitudes towards small cars for instance. They are increasing in popularity to the point where some pundits predict that they're the way of the future. All you need are the stats. In terms of this topic, gathering stats/information on crime, namely the types of crime and if possible, the reasons for, shouldn't be too difficult to find. From there, one may be able to draw a reasonably accurate cause/affect argument that'll help validate the views you are espousing.

 

Does there really need to be a mountain of evidence to prove this vast difference? Beyond what we see on a daily basis?

Of course not, but the more one can corroborate their view, the more notice people will take.

 

The bottom line, again, is that if the boot were on the other foot and I was the one making assertions and forming conclusions based on them, lets say - all porn is great and leaves society far better off as a conseqence - and kept on arguing this case while throwing in the odd link here and there.....I'd doubt you'd agree - not without substantial evidence to validate my claims at the very least. A few claims and a couple of links wouldn't change your point of view....and rightly so.

 

 

.

[Taramere]

I'd find it depressing and stressful to be involved with a guy who had a hard on for violent, gross-out porn. It would be very difficult for me to avoid seeing him as someone with some pretty worrying issues. What you're into sexually is, in my view, a very fundamental part of who you are - rather than belonging in some cordoned off vacuum that has zero to do with the rest of your personality.

 

"Yeah, I'm into slapping chicks and making them vomit - but really, I'm a lovely guy generally...a laid-back, sunshine and flowers, creative kind of guy in every other aspect of my life." Or "I'm the healthiest most well adjusted woman you'll ever meet. I just happen to like having my face mashed to a pulp every so often, being choked until I vomit and then being made to eat my own vomit."

 

It may well be the case, of course...but I tend to prefer not to authomatically rely on people's self assessment of their own psychological well-being. For instance, if I had a child I wouldn't be leaving it in the care of either of the above. I probably wouldn't leave a hamster in their care. Definitely not, come to think of it.

[Jersey Shortie]

My thoughts exactly.

[Taramere]

I clicked on the link Des gave. I didn't watch any of the "price of pleasure" documentary. I doubt it would do anything more than compound my existing views and generally be a bit of a downer. It was interesting to see Noam Chomsky's interview on that page, though. He had never heard of Hustler, but agreed to do an interview with it after being provided with a list of names (friends of his) Hustler had previously interviewed. Hustler presented itself to him as being a ground-breaking, political publication, and remained disingenuously silent on its porn content.

 

The porn industry does seem on a quest to achieve some intellectual credibility...with porn stars, directors, lawyers and people in the creative world waxing philosophical about porn pushing boundaries, free speech etc. Hustler publishing interviews with Noam Chomsky and his egghead friends seems very much in keeping with that drive to achieve some intellectual credibility for the porn industry. His interview on the link from Des presented a pretty unequivocal stance on the issue, however. He's not a fan, and doesn't see porn as an issue worthy of intellectual debate.

 

Des - if you're still reading. You seem to have had a fairly dramatic about turn on the violent porn issue. Did something specific (eg the documentary you provided a link to) lead you to rethink your position?

Edited December 14, 2009 by Taramere

[A O]

I'd find it depressing and stressful to be involved with a guy who had a hard on for violent, gross-out porn. It would be very difficult for me to avoid seeing him as someone with some pretty worrying issues. What you're into sexually is, in my view, a very fundamental part of who you are - rather than belonging in some cordoned off vacuum that has zero to do with the rest of your personality.

My thoughts exactly too! Yet again, here's an example of behavior rarely talked about here, that being a woman's ability to discern between respectful and disrespectful behavior. Porn, and its effects, are talked about all too often as if women have very little self-determination about the matter, in terms of what they find acceptable or not to them. That is patently not the case and thus is one of the chief reasons why societal change has not occurred too any great degree.

 

.

[burning 4 revenge]

Porn used to be run by the Mafia in this country and they kept it clean and decent. Then the corporations took over the racket once the technology was there to mainstream it and they exploited every disgusting fetish imaginable with no regards to human dignity. Now there are no limits

[CarrieT]

Now there are no limits

 

Oddly, there kind of are limits. For example, Japanese porn is not allowed to show penetration; it is all blurred over. That is why many Japanese porn companies host their porn sites in different countries -- to get through their country's laws.

 

Splitting hairs, I know, but it *is* a limit, of sorts...

[Des]

Des - if you're still reading. You seem to have had a fairly dramatic about turn on the violent porn issue. Did something specific (eg the documentary you provided a link to) lead you to rethink your position?

 

I had faced the reality of the issue quite a while back, but was in denial for a bit. When I was first challenged to debate and think critically about the issue, time and time again there was a more logical, more rational answer presented to me. No, I hadn't seen the film either, it really only explained further into what I already knew at heart. In retrospect, I am disgusted by my former perspective and views, and I think the only reason I argued for the other side (more recently), was to sort of bring it to its bare bones, as it was, simply a defense that avoided any critical thinking, or rationality. Though now I find it frustrating arguing against that very same broken logic and avoidance of reality.

 

As you can tell through previous pages of this "debate", the issue at hand isn't just "violent porn", but rather a trending of violence in mainstream pornography and how it is a reflection of some very deep-rooted problems within our society as a whole.

 

Ironically, I feel as though porn is reaching an point where it can no longer be defended, as defenders already struggle for solid ground, they are beginning to have the rug pulled out from under them by porn industry itself... as a recent and growing trend in some of this porn itself actually admitting, literally admitting, that what they do to women is degrading, humiliating, abusive, and mocking them for being so "stupid" as to allow it to happen to themselves, and in some cases even citing a patriarchal, misogynistic society as the culprit of their objectification and as what lead them to their fate.... all as selling point of said porn, an attraction to it for men.

 

I guess the pornographers are starting to figure, their defense and fanbase are so entranced and brainwashed, they can just come clean about it and it won't make a difference... and so far, it hasn't.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Des

[A O]

When I was first challenged to debate and think critically about the issue, time and time again there was a more logical, more rational answer presented to me.

Your critical thinking still needs working on, a lot of work in fact, as evidenced by the amount of tripe you recently accused me of. Other than right now, I bet you can't find the word "prude' in any of my posts, let alone just the posts in this thread. Yet you accuse me of using the term. Too much projection (pushing your thought processes onto me) and too many assumptions/presumptions to qualify as genuine critical thought.

 

As you can tell through previous pages of this "debate", the issue at hand isn't just "violent porn", but rather a trending of violence in mainstream pornography and how it is a reflection of some very deep-rooted problems within our society as a whole.

That's a yet to be substantiated trend!

 

Again, you and many others need to have more faith in peoples' ability, especially that of women in this case, to set boundaries around how they wish to be viewed and treated.

 

.

[Des]

Your critical thinking still needs working on, a lot of work in fact, as evidenced by the amount of tripe you recently accused me of. Other than right now, I bet you can't find the word "prude' in any of my posts, let alone just the posts in this thread.

 

Nice. The "amount of tripe", I accuse you of, like that one instance where I suggested your implication of Jersey as a prude. Quite a mountain. I also love how this has nothing to do with what you actually quoted, you only used this line as a means of attacking me. Suddenly you're offended by this implication? No, something else set you off.

 

Too much projection (pushing your thought processes onto me) and too many assumptions/presumptions to qualify as genuine critical thought.

 

How about, not enough thought on your part. I'll continue to point how you've agreed with so much of what I've said so far, that it makes no sense for you to back out now.

 

Your stance is "not until significant proof that porn has lead to the degradation and abuse of women, will I accepted that idea." Even though I've provided you with small instances of evidence, that's not good enough. Despite the fact that I've explained how there is only so much of an effect at this point than can be presented to you.

[Des]

Porn, and its effects, are talked about all too often as if women have very little self-determination about the matter, in terms of what they find acceptable or not to them.

 

Yes, I intended to respond to this once before. Loopholes aren't going to validate any of this. You're basically saying "If you believe in equality, then allow these women to fall victim to society as they do.", ignoring and the reality of the circumstances that we've discussed prior.

 

What AO, and a lot of men are either unable to see clearly, or simply refuse to acknowledge, are the interconnections between porn, it's effects, and women who are "choosing" abuse.

 

In a society that often sends the message to women at a early age that they're measure of success and achievement is determined through their physical appearance/attraction, and sexuality. As they are praised and rewarded in power, money, social status, etc, and the degree of that reward is measured by the level of self-objectification and self-degradation. When born into a society where this is so deeply woven and ingrained, pushed and pressured by the likes of pornography, the media, men, etc.. it's no wonder that some actually believe (as Taramere put it), being choked or made to eat their own vomit is an innate part of their sexuality, as women. Yet, people like AO have the nerve to blame these women themselves, for being victims of this vicious psychology, or even suggest that this IS in fact in their nature... Personally, I feel it's merely a glorified, sexualized form or humiliation that is learned through pornography.

 

I understand that what one woman sees as disgusting, degrading, and abusive, another might see as just a normal part of being a woman, or what sexy, successful, desirable women do. But why? This has to do with upbringing, exposure to what and how much (porn culture), social experiences, interactions and learned behaviors - all within in the aforementioned societal structure. Obviously, there will be victims of such a society, to different degrees and in different fashions.

 

What does it say to you about a person who "wants" to be abused? How does that grant the right, or clear the conscious of another person to carry out the abuse or degradation? What does it say about them for taking pleasure in it, or even fantasizing?

 

We need to see an end to the means by which more women are coming to accept, or believe that it's normal to be choked or slapped while having sex, or the idea there is nothing wrong with submitting to sexual and psychological abuse in front of a camera, for money, social status, and the attention of men. ...and where are these behaviors and attitudes stemming from? Pornography.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Des

[A O]

Nice. The "amount of tripe", I accuse you of, like that one instance where I suggested your implication of Jersey as a prude. Quite a mountain. I also love how this has nothing to do with what you actually quoted, you only used this line as a means of attacking me.

I don't agree with your "critical thought' analysis and I have used your most recent post towards me to validate my view. That 'instance' is the easiest to spot, but it's hardly an isolated occurrence of a lack of critical thought. Also, you can call it an attack if you so choose, I'd call it playing the victim myself, but the simple fact of the matter is that what you said about me was wrong so if anyone should be feeling a lil put out it shouldn't be you, or only you!

 

How about, not enough thought on your part. I'll continue to point how you've agreed with so much of what I've said so far, that it makes no sense for you to back out now.

You're inconsistent. On more occasions than not, you accuse me of basically burying my head in the sand while when it suits you, you make a point of finally acknowledging that I actually do see a lot of the other side. It appears that you see what you want to see when it suits you. Again, that's not genuine critical thinking behavior.

 

Your stance is "not until significant proof that porn has lead to the degradation and abuse of women, will I accepted that idea."

Forget the topic, and its alleged effects, and simply look at the stance. It's a stance that most people have, and those who do not, are more prone to be lead up the garden path than those who do. In a sense, this stance transcends the topic and has more to do with critical thought than what I've seen from you thus far.

 

In short, its about questioning everything that's put before you until you're satisfied beyond doubt that what's before you is closer to the truth, in your eyes, than not. Again, most people tend to operate this way. Few ever have cause to verbalize this process however.

 

Even though I've provided you with small instances of evidence, that's not good enough. Despite the fact that I've explained how there is only so much of an effect at this point than can be presented to you.

I've appreciated your efforts. But you're right, they are small instances, too small in fact to take your assertions purely at face value.

 

In short: Do I believe that porn can have an influence on people's, namely men's behavior - yes. Do I believe that this potential influence has lead to a wholesale negative change in behavior towards women - no. Can I be convinced - yes, for sure! Have I been - not as yet. Its as simple as that.

 

.

[Taramere]

As you can tell through previous pages of this "debate", the issue at hand isn't just "violent porn", but rather a trending of violence in mainstream pornography and how it is a reflection of some very deep-rooted problems within our society as a whole.

 

I have no respect for the porn industry, and I don't regard my own life as being in any way enhanced by it. If other women feel differently and get something out of it, then that's fine for them. For me, assurances from porn actresses, that being spat on, kicked and punched is in some way liberating (ie because you're getting paid for it) are meaningless statements coming from tiny cogs in a multi-billion dollar making machine that is the porn industry.

 

a recent and growing trend in some of this porn itself actually admitting, literally admitting, that what they do to women is degrading, humiliating, abusive, and mocking them for being so "stupid" as to allow it to happen to themselves, and in some cases even citing a patriarchal, misogynistic society as the culprit of their objectification and as what lead them to their fate.... all as selling point of said porn, an attraction to it for men.

 

So essentially they're applying the traditional militant feminist argument, but instead of saying "this is why you shouldn't watch porn" it's a case of "this is exactly why you should watch it." Do you think some aspects of the porn industry are becoming too politicised to continue passing themselves off as harmless fun?

 

Again, you and many others need to have more faith in peoples' ability, especially that of women in this case, to set boundaries around how they wish to be viewed and treated.

 

I think there's much to be said for that....though arguably porn helps to contribute towards an unfair dynamic whereby the onus is on women to present themselves in a way that will minimise associations (in men's minds) with porn, in order to elicit respectful treatment from them. Years ago I worked with adolescents who presented challenging behaviour. For a time I was having major difficulties with some of the boys. I was the youngest member of staff, and my boss (male) told me in supervision that he thought they were sexualising me. He was pretty disapproving towards me in the way he said it.

 

Then things became more blatantly sexual - not helped by the fact that I had a male shift partner who would make sleazy comments about me in front of the boys. These kids were taking the porn from under their beds, through to the living room and kitchen. "What do you think of her then? Do you wish you had tits this big? Does your fanny (in the UK, fanny doesn't mean what it means in the US) look like this? Do you let your boyfriend shag you up the arse" and so on. The porn would get confiscated, but this went on for some time.

 

Anyway, I was under real pressure to leave. The staff group generally felt I didn't cut it in that kind of work, because I didn't carry enough authority. I decided to try for another job. I had long blonde hair at the time, and got it cut short for an interview. Next day I came into work and the boys were asking why I'd cut my hair, they didn't like it etc etc. Then a female member of staff said "I think it's such a shame you had to cut that lovely hair off, just because of that whole porn business - but I suppose it is a more appropriate look"

 

I was a young woman in my twenties with a life outside my job. Do you think that by being young and having long blonde hair, I wasn't setting proper boundaries as to how I wished to be treated? Failing to take into proper account the fact that young boys love to use porn and that porn frequently portrays images of women with long blonde hair? I do agree with you that there's a responsibility on women to set some boundaries as to how we want to be treated. However, porn has hijacked many aspects of femininity for its own money-making purposes, and frequently made a mockery of them. I don't think women need to take any responsibility for that, unless they're actively involved in the porn industry.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Taramere

[A O]

Loopholes aren't going to validate any of this. You're basically saying "If you believe in equality, then allow these women to fall victim to society as they do.", ignoring and the reality of the circumstances that we've discussed prior.

No, what I am saying is that women are no different to men. They have no greater chance of becoming a victim, of becoming anything quite frankly, then men do. Your stance on the other hand implies that women have a far greater propensity to falling victim to anything that society throws at them. Seems that I have a lot more faith in women than you do.

 

What AO, and a lot of men are either unable to see clearly, or simply refuse to acknowledge, are the interconnections between porn, it's effects, and women who are "choosing" abuse.

Now we're getting on to a different kettle of fish, to the heart of the matter in some ways. First off, I know more than most the role that low-esteem tends to play on women, moreso than men. Next, and the most ironic point really, you were so quick to use "equality" as one method of righting the wrongs, of addressing the ills of porn and male attitudes towards women. Yet, as soon as you bring up this point, you "equality" panacea flies out the window because now it becomes an issue of needing to somehow protect some women from themselves, namely the low self-esteem types who choose abuse.

 

So, all in all, we can debate the issues around these types of women, but you better forget the issue of equality as being the great be all and end all to this whole shebang.

 

Yet, people like AO have the nerve to blame these women themselves, for being victims of this vicious psychology, or even suggest that this IS in fact in their nature.

Oh, please, here you go again. Critical thought, not when it comes to others. Please, don't put words in my mouth.

 

What does it say to you about a person who "wants" to be abused? How does that grant the right, or clear the conscious of another person to carry out the abuse or degradation? What does it say about them for taking pleasure in it, or even fantasizing?

Even better question is - what they heck can we do about it? What can we do to help these (mostly) women bring themselves up to a level whereupon they can say "No" to any form of abuse, to anything that they are uncomfortable with doing. That's the money shot, and as far as I'm concerned - thee most important question I've asked since been here!!

 

What can be done?

 

.

[Des]

That 'instance' is the easiest to spot, but it's hardly an isolated occurrence of a lack of critical thought.

 

Please, by all means... find some more. And an unresolved disagreement between you and I on a specific aspect cannot fairly be considered a "lack of critical thought". That's your opinion against mine. Maybe I should start giving a source to every single claim from actual published works, which could be done, if I invested the time and effort. Unlike you, at least I have put forth some effort.

 

You're inconsistent. On more occasions than not, you accuse me of basically burying my head in the sand while when it suits you, you make a point of finally acknowledging that I actually do see a lot of the other side.

 

I'd say on more occasions than not you agree with me, than when you do in fact, bury your head in the sand to avoid a point that is equally as rational as the ones you supposedly "agree" with - anything just short of making you retract that initial statement that porn is healthy, respectful, or otherwise harmless.

 

It appears that you see what you want to see when it suits you.

 

The irony is too much.

 

Forget the topic, and its alleged effects, and simply look at the stance. It's a stance that most people have, and those who do not, are more prone to be lead up the garden path than those who do. In a sense, this stance transcends the topic and has more to do with critical thought than what I've seen from you thus far.

 

Does it not stand to reason, that if some effects never before present in the past begin to show themselves, and disturbing, harmful, destructive new trends start to become more prevalent within a culture, as indicated by several small, nonetheless credible studies... That something is afoot? Should we take some interest or concern now? Or should we wait until these conditions worsen?

 

In short, its about questioning everything that's put before you until you're satisfied beyond doubt that what's before you is closer to the truth, in your eyes, than not. Again, most people tend to operate this way. Few ever have cause to verbalize this process however.

 

Oh, it's apparent how you question every bit of evidence put before you... even if we can agree that it's harmful in more ways than just how it may or may not effect our youth.

 

Your initial statement in this thread was a defense of porn, as I have pointed out. This has always been your motive. It's amazing how many corners you've been backed into throughout the duration of this thread, and yet, the only you find a way out of them is, as Jersey pointed out, by quoting a one-liner of mine and going to town on a separate rant. This time it's me and my lack of critical thinking. Simply a diversion, something you would've never come up with, had I not given you the opportunity.

 

I've appreciated your efforts. But you're right, they are small instances, too small in fact to take your assertions purely at face value.

 

Maybe too small for you to care about, but not for others. Any amount of this occurring or existing, is too much, and it's just wrong to ignore because it isn't more widespread or dire.

 

In short: Do I believe that porn can have an influence on people's, namely men's behavior - yes. Do I believe that this potential influence has lead to a wholesale negative change in behavior towards women - no. Can I be convinced - yes, for sure! Have I been - not as yet. Its as simple as that.

 

There you go again, I never said that it has effected any majority. I've tended to use the phrase "a lot" rather than "most". Because the numbers to which it has effected, is whether you think it is or not, a lot of people unfortunately, even if it is the minority. If you don't believe that the extent (to which I have backed up with evidence) is significant, that's your problem.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Des

[A O]

I do agree with you that there's a responsibility on women to set some boundaries as to how we want to be treated.

End of the day it all boils down to compatibility and finding those with like-minded boundaries on top of the usual attraction dynamics.

 

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[A O]

Please, by all means... find some more. And an unresolved disagreement between you and I on a specific aspect cannot fairly be considered a "lack of critical thought". That's your opinion against mine.

Ok, lets indulge this irreverent drivel while I await the real important stuff

 

"I still feel that you are afraid of what you might see, like a lot of other men and women out there, you don't want see that perspective, you want to pretend it does not exist"

Two assumptions.

 

" It's easy for us to block out the bad side of things and just focus on what brings us gratification."

Projection - your thought process not mine

 

"You don't want to think more into than it just being "sex on film", so as to not kill it's effect."

Assumption

 

"You initially chimed into this thread calling Jersey a prude and claiming"

Plain wrong, I said nothing of the sort

 

 

Ok, there's plenty more to choose from but for brevity's sake, I'll leave it at that. Point being, assumptions and the like are not indicative of critical thought, far from actually.

 

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