Jersey Shortie Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Carhill: Nope. I watched my father carefully as a child and knew when he and my mother were at odds, even though they had a long and healthy marriage. You may think you can hide things from children, and more power to you for thinking that, but it's simply not true. You can hide the facts, but the feelings and impressions are transparent to the mind and emotions of a child. Jame's children know something is up and it's not healthy. They don't know the penis/vagina stuff, which is appropriate, but that dynamic permeates the rest of the aura of the family. What is James afraid of? Think about that James... fear is your enemy, not your wife. I really think this is worth pointing out again. Bolded to highlight the most important part here. I don't have kids but I remember what it was like growing up in my house. Or rather, I saw things more clearly what growing up in my house was like as I got older. I was brought up in a warm and loving home, truly. And nothing is perfect and this is in no way to say my father was not a good father, but he has left some pricey emotional issues with both my brother and I for his own personal issues. My brother acted out when he was younger but didn't really know why he was acting out. It took longer for me and I acted out different as I got older and still have issues with men for it. It was only when I hit my early 20s did I see the reality and begin to understand the emotional issues I had from my own father when I started dating and relating to other men on a different level then the normal high school crap. I am not going to get into details. My father is not an awful man but he is emotionally stunted and stubborn. And my parents thought they hid things well. Believe me. Both my brother and I were always proud that are parents were still together. But as I got older, things were more clear. I lived in a bubble my parents created when I was young, but they couldn't protect me from figuring things out, and remember past things as I got older. I am not trying to take the focus off your problems on me. I am just sharing this with you to prove the point that children know thigngs. You think your kids don't know things, You would be surprised what kids know. Or what they figure out about their parents as they get older. No one lives in close quarters for 18 years and doesn't figure out the other people they are living with, kids or not. And kids are usually more perceptive then adults anyway. I think the best thing you can do for your kids is show them how to live it. And right now James, yuo aren't living life. Not the way it's meant to be lived. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Sex doesn't save the world. Emotionally healthy individuals look to sex as an expression, not the underlying basis for all relationships. When people have sexual problems in their relationship, whereby the cause isn't physical, there's a helluva' lot more going on within the relationship dynamic and also within each individual, than doing or not doing the horizontal boogie. Third parties, such as counsellors, can help to get to the bottom of the issues, rather than just treating the superficial aspects, like a lack of sex. Link to post Share on other sites
Sweetcheripie Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I have never ever been abused sexually by anyone.. I was just like James' wife with my first ex.. lasted for about 12 years before I decided to leave. I had sex about 2 a week... but it was pure torture.. I hated it. My best friend has also been married for over 25 years.. she said she would live completely sexless if it was just for her.. she said she hates sex.. but she loves her husband. She stays because her lifestyle is amazing.. He stays cause I'm sure he's cheating.. plus he also gets the lifestyle (Porsches, he got 2) and the huge house on the river... the investments.. etc. My MM from work.. is in the same situation, they have sex about once every 6-7 weeks.. do the math.. about 8-9 times year ... He looooves sex.. and he's very good at it.. They have a good life together, never fight in front of the kids..they have 2 (still at home).. nice house, etc.. etc... they are great parents.. very busy with their kids. She is happy cause he doesn't bother her anymore.. he's not even arguing/nagging about it.. he stays cause he gets is outside... and their M is good.. I can go on and on.. You could be spot on but since she has been abused if it were me I would explore that area and try some counseling. Maybe I'm too much of a romantic but it sounds like they love each other a lot and he would swim through shark infested waters for her. She just needs to face her demons - if not for herself for her marriage. If it were me, I would turn over every rock, explore every option before I gave up. Link to post Share on other sites
Jilly Bean Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 My question again is....how would you approach things now? I would ask her if she can project forward and see what telling you this could invoke in your lives, ie. ultimate divorce, disease, you falling in love with someone else... I think that if a wife tells her husband to go get laid elsewhere, then she's pretty much saying she's done with the marriage, or is so divested from it, she truly doesn't care what you do. In which case I would wonder why you would stay... Would you deliver an ultimatum? (I did this three years ago and it gave a temporary change). Nope. I don't think those work long-term, and her offer is quite powerful. Would you ask for a divorce? Probably. If my husband told me he no longer wanted to have sex with me, and I should find it elsewhere, I would take it as a sign that he was done with me entirely. Would you demand sex? Nope. Never beg. Would you begin an affair? Possibly. Depends if there were other good reasons to stay in the marriage. Would you simply "purchase" it from a safe place? lol. No... Would you get a :f***buddy? Same answer as to the affair question.QUOTE] Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 You could be spot on but since she has been abused if it were me I would explore that area and try some counseling. Maybe I'm too much of a romantic but it sounds like they love each other a lot and he would swim through shark infested waters for her. She just needs to face her demons - if not for herself for her marriage. If it were me, I would turn over every rock, explore every option before I gave up. I totally agree.. but from what I read.. I got the feeling that they had this discussion before and she just doesn't want to go face her demons.. James? My MM's wife (from work).. says she never got abused.. but she has medical problems.. with her periods (they last forever, like 3 weeks) .. she went to the doctor.. he told her her best bet would be to get her uterus out.. (fibromes).. but she refused.. methink she rather have her periods than have sex.. He also thinks so.. but now he's not too worried.. cause he gets it outside.. Every woman has her own excuse.. Link to post Share on other sites
Enema Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I think it would depend how much I had to lose from a divorce. If it wasn't too damaging, I would do that. If it was a bad financial move for my future, I would just "purchase" it from a safe place. Link to post Share on other sites
angie2443 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Sex doesn't save the world. Emotionally healthy individuals look to sex as an expression, not the underlying basis for all relationships. When people have sexual problems in their relationship, whereby the cause isn't physical, there's a helluva' lot more going on within the relationship dynamic and also within each individual, than doing or not doing the horizontal boogie. Third parties, such as counsellors, can help to get to the bottom of the issues, rather than just treating the superficial aspects, like a lack of sex. I agree with this post. I think the problem is, that it is easier to focus on the lack of sex instead of addressing the underlying issues in the relationship. Maybe because, if those issues were addressed they would force some kind of change which the people in the relationship either don't want, or are afraid of. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Maybe because, if those issues were addressed they would force some kind of change which the people in the relationship either don't want, or are afraid of.Changes in both people; in James' case, that means him too, since the focus seems to be on his wife's libido. Both parties, in some measure, are responsible for the dynamic, and it takes work from and interest by both to find a healthy compromise. Along with that change comes acceptance of the honest perspectives. If James' wife really sees nothing remotely attractive about him, his job is to accept that; not challenge it nor rationalize it. My wife doesn't find me sexually attractive anymore. I accept that. How does it square with how I feel about myself, my wife and my marriage? Link to post Share on other sites
tnhusband Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 James - I have read your posts and can really relate to them. If you read my recent posts in the other thread on this issue (I only have a few posts) it explains my opinion on this issue. I was where you are - great marriage, great kids, great life - everything was great - except I thought about sex all the time because I never got to have sex with my wife - not great quality and not great quantity. Now my wife has her libido back and we have both quality and quantity I think about sex so much less - I feel like my old self. I'm sure you have read many books and done lots of on-line research - just like I did. But have you read The Passionate Marriage? - it's a little wordy/heavy reading but it was the one book that really helped me. She may not change - ever. But I found the sexual side of my wife again - I'm hopeful you can too - it's in there somewhere but something has to change. You can't keep doing the same things over and over again and expect things to improve - you know deep down how you feel. And get rid of your list of options for now - give yourself one option - change you. Focus on that - whatever it is. Be true to yourself but do something. If working out and getting a great body might work - try it. The great thing about any positive changes you make - if it doesn't help with your wife's libido - you still get the benefits from it. Wishing you the best. Link to post Share on other sites
Holding-On Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Look James, I know I'm in the vast minority here, but as a parent with young children and a husband I really like, I would not want sex to be the primary focus of the marriage. I don't understand most posters who advise divorce. Because, lets face it, what do these singers of doom and gloom advise will happen if the FWB goes sour?... that you will divorce! I think your wife likes you, likes living with you, makes a good parenting team with you. She just doesn't want sex with you. Financially, emotionally, parent wise you are far far better off IN the marriage. And dammit, so are your kids. It is assumed by all that if you have a FWB, you will fall madly in love and have to decide between the FWB and your wife. However, I strongly suggest you find a woman in a similar situation. Happy with her husband and family, looking for more/different intimacy, looking to help you live your life to the fullest and love your family too. THerefore if you fall in love with her, whoop de doop, now you love two women. Sweet. Honestly the presumption that all people behave the same bugs me. If I were your FWB I would not be looking to have you break up. I personally would be rooting for your relationship to continue and happy that you didn't define it solely on matching sex drives/roles but rather in compatibility, love and committment to stay together. I am quite certain that if you look for such a woman, you will find her. Poly is a good key word in dating sites. good luck Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 If it was a bad financial move for my future, I would just "purchase" it from a safe place. Since that can be a rapidly changing landscape, it's a little like telling someone to invest their money in a "safe" place. I'd hate for James' marriage to begin to resemble my 401K... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Poly barely works and when it does, it has all kinds of issues that have to be dealt with. As well, I doubt that James would be happy if his wife were to seek other amusements. Just food for thought... Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 James, you do understand that your wife can go through all these gyrations with you, causing you to spend all these countless hours agonizing both over your blue balls and your relationship and your children, and then, simply, as many women do, file for divorce and clean your clock. If you think she'd never do it; never disrupt the family life for herself and your children, think again. It happens every day. Hope it works out for you. You have a good soul, from my readings... Link to post Share on other sites
Thornton Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Did you ever feel bad for not having sex with your ex? So you feel out of love with him. Did you feel like you were using him? I am just curious because I can't understand why women do this. I didn't feel bad about not having sex with him, because I figured I had the right to choose not to have sex with him, just as he had the right to end the relationship if he didn't want to put up with that. He was getting exactly the same from me as I was getting from him - i.e. friendship and half of the bills paid - so I didn't feel like I was using him because he was getting back exactly what he was giving. I knew he wasn't happy with the lack of sex, but I figured he could choose to end the relationship if he wanted to - I certainly wasn't going to budge on the no-sex. I guess I just didn't see why I should do something I didn't want to do, and I didn't want to have sex with him. It was mostly because I didn't find him physically attractive - he was a great guy, a good friend and companion, and he fulfilled my emotional needs, I was happy to stay in this roommate-type relationship with him but I refused to have sex with him. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 James, you do understand that your wife can go through all these gyrations with you, causing you to spend all these countless hours agonizing both over your blue balls and your relationship and your children, and then, simply, as many women do, file for divorce and clean your clock. If you think she'd never do it; never disrupt the family life for herself and your children, think again. It happens every day. Hope it works out for you. You have a good soul, from my readings... So that you know, if I recall correctly, James' wife is in some form of senior management position, bringing home some decent bacon. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 1. Doesn't matter, with four children. She can still clean his clock. Or so my lawyer has told me. I dealt with this same issue, since my wife makes more than I do. HMMV 2. A financially independent woman is more likely to file for divorce, as the financial aspect doesn't limit her. This presumes she desires divorce. I'm not inferring that James' wife does. Rather, merely reminding him of the possibilities. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I agree with Holding-On.. The MM and the OW do not necessarily fall hard for each other.. especially if they are in the same position.. and neither wants to leave their partner.. they just want this romantic, sexual, soooo good feeling of kissing, cuddling.. having this hot and sometimes kinky sex.. fulfilling each other sexual needs.... Gosh it feels so good.. I cannot even imagine someone, like James living another 20+ years with someone who just don't want sex anymore.. it's insane.. not human.. There are plenty of sites for married people looking for outside sex.. Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 1. Doesn't matter, with four children. She can still clean his clock. Or so my lawyer has told me. I dealt with this same issue, since my wife makes more than I do. HMMV 2. A financially independent woman is more likely to file for divorce, as the financial aspect doesn't limit her. This presumes she desires divorce. I'm not inferring that James' wife does. Rather, merely reminding him of the possibilities. No doubt if they do get divorced and she gains full custody v. equal shared custody, he will have to pay child support. But...child support is a set amount per child, where payments are factored based on their individual incomes. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Their professions, marital and separate contributions to such, and marital asset and expenditure mixture are examined as well. The parties can agree in part, but, with children, even the non-support areas of the situation become potential hotbeds of contention. Combine that with James' propensity for falling on his sword and you have my cautions. I would opine that he will let her clean his clock for the children. Sacrifice himself, much as he's doing right now, except in a more far-reaching sense. James, the pragmatic approach is indeed that proffered by Lizzie and others. I don't know if you're up to that. If you took your wife up on her word and it got ugly (meaning she 'changed her mind' as women often do) I wouldn't want to be around for the results, sincerely. Best case, it could help you deal short-term. Link to post Share on other sites
Sam Spade Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I didn't feel bad about not having sex with him, because I figured I had the right to choose not to have sex with him, just as he had the right to end the relationship if he didn't want to put up with that. He was getting exactly the same from me as I was getting from him - i.e. friendship and half of the bills paid - so I didn't feel like I was using him because he was getting back exactly what he was giving. I knew he wasn't happy with the lack of sex, but I figured he could choose to end the relationship if he wanted to - I certainly wasn't going to budge on the no-sex. I guess I just didn't see why I should do something I didn't want to do, and I didn't want to have sex with him. It was mostly because I didn't find him physically attractive - he was a great guy, a good friend and companion, and he fulfilled my emotional needs, I was happy to stay in this roommate-type relationship with him but I refused to have sex with him. So if you didn't find him physically attractive, why were you in relationship with him to begin with?? I personally am shocked that so many men put up with this. And I'm not even such a huge fan of sex (at least compared to some of my friends, i could easily go a week or two without even thinking about it). But, in my mind it's a matter of principle ratger than getting off on a regular basis - I wouldn't be happy to be treated like a vessel, no matter the other 'perks' of the relationship. Yes, it's a matter of pride, not so much about the "other" comforts. I'm sure it is possible, but still incredibly difficult to retain any form of pride and dignity when you're not wanted intimately. I know that it is not an option for James, and I respect it, but the only way I could envision myself surviving in this situation would be to resort to a Don Drapper style behavior (go through through a bunch of women, or perhaps hookers, for nothing but amusement), except more discreet. Talk about reasons not to put all of your trust and feelings into one person. I imagine there is no prenup in James's marriage, it would be beneficial for sure... Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Set up a post-nup, then hit the town. That's another option Link to post Share on other sites
Sam Spade Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 In cases like this, the refusal to acknowledge that something wrong is the most infuriating things. For any of the self-exploration efforts to work there needs to be at least some level of desire to resolve it, rather than get entrenched in a "that's the way it's gona be" position, which is what she's doing. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 "that's the way it's gonna be" I experienced this as well, even during and after MC. I call it the dead zone. Which is exactly how I came to feel. I applaud James for finding light in the darkness. Link to post Share on other sites
Chrome Barracuda Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 could she have been abused??? I mean ever since I got here on this site james marriage always had this problem. WTF is he gonna do about it??? Link to post Share on other sites
D-Lish Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I don't know what I'd do if I were you. It's an impossible situation. You're in love with your spouse, and the one thing that would make things better is to re-ignite a sexual relationship~ but that isn't going to happen. Do you want to live the rest of your life without sex? I don't think you should have to. How you reconcile between loving your wife and denying yourself is beyond me. If you stay and cheat, you're a bastard- if you leave, you're giving up great companionship. I know if I were in your situation I would be vulnerable to temptation. What do you think you want to do? What are you leaning towards? Link to post Share on other sites
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