"If you want sex, then you will have to get it somewhere else."

[Thaddeus]

Wow. Just wow.

 

James, I can really relate to your plight.

 

When I was married to wife #2 and living in a sexless relationship, despite the fact that I was doing all the things that I was apparently supposed to do (according to MC and her wishes), it became abundantly clear to me that she didn't see sex in the same way I saw it. For me, it was - and remains - a physical expression of commitment and acceptance between two people. Being constantly turned down damaged the relationship beyond repair.

 

I recall once "discussion" (which started as a discussion but she escalated it into an argument) in which I expressed the fact that sex, for me, was validation of the relationship, just like me providing her emotional support was her way of getting validation in the relationship. Sex had less to do with getting my stones off than it did with re-establishing that level of commitment I had made to her on our wedding day.

 

Alas, she was having none of it, and by having physical needs I was being "selfish" and all the rest. So I told her that if she was looking for emotional support, that too was "selfish."

 

Needless to say, it didn't end well.

 

Sad to say but I don't see your situation ending well either. If she keeps refusing, if she keeps disrespecting you and your marriage (which is exactly what she's doing) then I really don't see any alternative other than divorce.

 

I don't have any advice for you, my friend, other than to let you know that this is extremely common. For me personally, I wouldn't step outside the relationship for sex until the divorce is final for a whole host of reasons.

[JamesM]

Thank you for all of your comments, and especially the kind words. I chose some posts to respond directly to, but the ones I didn't still resonated with me.

 

 

other than sex how is your marriage?

 

Do you have young kids?

 

if it were me I would say I need to have sex I didn't get married to be celebate the rest of my life.

 

Either you provide that for me or I will get it elsewhere,

 

Other than sex, everything is good according to her. And since she isn't interested in sex, then I guess all is good for her. Her main interest is communication and sharing with me.

 

Yes, we have young kids.

 

And yes, I said those almost exact words to her more than once. April of 2006 is the time that it really made a difference for four months.

 

If you (meaning anyone) would like to see that post, see my second thread, I think it is.

 

That suggestion to go outside of the marriage pretty much sucks.

 

It does because I wonder why she would say that. I understand her lack of interest, but at least in the past, she knew it was a problem and seemed to wish it were better. This comment indicates differently.

 

If your wife is telling you to do this with all honesty and not just to get you off her back, then I can't believe she realises fully what 2sure has said here. Have you told her this?

 

No. I know she knows what this means. That is why I was kinda shocked when she said it.

 

Is it possible that her lack of sex drive or whatever (I know you had said she wont tell you what's wrong) do you think SHE has stepped out of the marriage at some point? Maybe she can't bring her self to have sex with you because she feels she wronged you. maybe she is telling you do look elsewhere because possibly she did? I know that might sound odd, but I was just wondering if you eve thought that might be what it is.

 

You do what you need to do, but IMO, I would vote NO on going outside of the marriage. End it first if you feel the need to do that.

 

I have often wondered this very thing.

 

If you read back into my threads, there was a day in January of 2006 (and yes, I can remember the place where we were, the time of day, and the look on her face.) when she came to me and said, "I have something to tell you." We were in the kitchen with the noise of our children and some nieces who were over, so I was surprised that she would bring up such an issue then. The look on her face was one of a worry of my response. She was scared, and I rarely see such a look. The only other times is when she fears she has a disease or something.

 

I waited with probably the same fear on my face, and my first thought was "She had an affair." My heart stopped and I had t hat dread in my stomach. She paused and then said that she spent over a thousand dollars of credit on clothes in the past month. But she then looked at me and said, "You thought I was going to say I had an affair." I said yes and she said that there was no one but me. The part that has bothered me is that before then and after then she has spent too much money on something (and yes, she did spend that thousand then), but she never has had that look on her face. And honestly, I have never given her so much grief that she needed to be scared over spending. Besides, when she spends too much, she usually gets defensive if anything.

 

And if you read some of my next thread, then you can see I gave her an ultimatum in April, and she became a changed person for four months. She suddenly did everything so that we would enjoy sex. And she acted like she fell in love with me all over again. What made her become that sexual woman? And then why did she lose it?

 

Four months later, things were more normal, and have remained since then.

 

However, ironically three years almost to the day after she became a changed woman, she made the comment that started THIS thread.

 

The way she phrased it basically leaves the impression that she has checked out of the marriage - after all you've tried, and after clearly explaining what sex means in the context of a relationship, to tell you basically take it or leave it - I personally percieve as disrespectful. If there are true problems underlying the lack of sex, her obligation as a wife is to disclose them and see if you can work them out.

 

I agree, and well said for someone who has not been married.

 

JamesM darling...

 

Get a F* friend.. or anything you want .. you can't live like that.. and trust me.. this won't be cheating .. since she wants you to leave her alone.. she's cheating cause she is not respecting her part of the 'deal' why should you respect yours.. + she says she wants you to get it somewhere..

 

Why are you even asking? If I was closer..

 

Lizzie, I know your opinion and still appreciate hearing it. The problem with a FB is hat I fear it will become emotional for me, and still I face the fact...my wife has rejected me.

 

But still...I wonder if my feelings would be for the better without the feeling that I lack control.

 

And you know I reciprocate the sentiment. Closer would be better.

 

She blames it on menopause. Having not been there yet myself, I can't really speak to that situation. James, do you think that may be part of the problem? Is your wife in that stage yet?

 

Sorry - forget your ages.

 

We are mid 40s. And I don't think it is menopause because it has been a problem since about 40. Ironically, when she was 39, she said how sexy she felt and thought that 40 sounded sexier than 39. Funny thing is...our sex life then already did not reflect her feeling.

 

Perhaps she felt sexy because of someone else?

 

My response would be, "Ok," and then I would quietly file for divorce. If you're not interested in divorcing, then either deal with the marriage on her terms, or have an affair.

 

If you're not happy with the terms she has laid out, then you need to leave her. This is the dealbreaker and it makes the two of you highly incompatible.

 

Divorce is not an option for many reasons, and one is because this is not a dealbreaker in that sense. And while this is not a good reason in many eyes, staying for the children is a good enough reason for me. Five years ago, I may not have felt so strongly, but now, I cannot imagine doing that to them especially since overall, our family is getting along great. For those with children, I think they can better understand.

 

We do not argue any more than most. We still kiss. We still have a fun time talking with each other. We still are great friends. I would still rather go out with her (or by myself) than with anyone else.

 

There are more positives than negatives.

 

Emotionally, I don't think I could handle an affair. It would be too much fun, and my energies would be directed to it. I also do not have the time.

 

I almost wish I could find out that there was someone else, because then I would have a reason. Then we could decide...fix this, or leave. And I think we both would try to fix it. Quite possibly there was no on else, but I guess I have no way of knowing.

 

JamesM~

 

You have been a rock through all of this, and have given your wife the benefit of the doubt many times through all of your research.

 

I would have a very frank and honest conversation with your wife asking her if she truly understands by saying the words "get it from someplace else" and you do, what this could potentially mean to the dynamics of your marriage and family.

 

I'm sure you know, but does she?

 

Truth be told, I would also be a little afraid of what her answer could be.....

 

Thank you for your kind words. I am also afraid of what her answer would be. The other thing is that she may back out of that statement and still not "want sex." But Lizzie asked a question that relates, so read below.

 

Let's say, James, that you propose divorce. You don,t want a divorce and chances are she doesn't either.. then she might 'force' herself to have sex.. when deep down.. she absolutely hates it..

 

Would you be satisfy with this.. knowing it's a sacrifice for her..

 

No, and that is part of the problem. If she had sex with me out of love, then that is okay, but if it was a duty, then after awhile, this would get old, too.

 

For those of you who know her background, forced sex is similar to the sexual abuse she endured as a child. Incest goes deep, and that I think is part of the issue even though she has had extensive counseling over it. To her forced sex is akin to rape. And that is why I think she also made her comment.

 

I think if the subject never came up again, then she would be happy. As she also said at the time, "If you were impotent, then you would look at this marriage differently." And she is right.

 

For the past two months, I have done exactly that. It is funny how we can actually turn off the sex drive when we try harder enough. Or rather, divert it so that it is not focused on her. Then I do think differently of her. She is no longer as sexy. I see her extra curves or rolls. I don't try as hard to please her, and I don't care as much about her. No, I don't like it.

 

James, what do you want to do since sex within the marriage is such a struggle? Has your wife ever explained why she's not interested in sex, in direct terms?

 

She has given many reasons and no reason. IMO any reason that keeps me quiet or researching is good enough. But as has been said, the part that is most saddening is the rejection completely. Even if she does not like it, the fact that she does not love ME enough to at least try to make me happy hurts.

 

What are the reasons? Health, headaches, her past, stress now, no time....and more. And usually, it is "I don't know why." Or "It is me, not you." IMO both are cop outs.

 

I agree... I think the only thing she hates is the sex.. I was in her shoes many many years ago.. but we had continuous arguments.. I just hated sex with him... but everything else was fine..

 

And honestly, I think this truly is the case. We do not have continuous arguments about it, because I simply don't bring it up. And when I get it off my mind and focus on other things, then life is not that bad.

 

That is why as has been said, if I get it out of my system, then life may be a lot better.

[seibert253]

This is a touchy subject. A couple of years ago I brought up the subject of only having sex once a month or so, one occasion went 4 months without anything. Wife said basically the same thing, she could go without sex from now on, never feels like it, yada yada.

 

She said the exact thing, if you want sex, go find a girlfriend. Guess what, I did, well not exactly let me explain:

I had two women, one I worked with, and another who was actually a friend of my wife's. I became close friend's with both, we would talk, see each other at the gym, nothing inappropriate. My wife would actually refer to them as my "girlfriends". My wife knew what things were, and I never keep anything from her as far as activities or conversations with my "girlfriends". I started working out hard, lost 30lbs of fat, trimmed up. Everyone, especially my wife's female friends would comment on how good her husband looked, how they wish their husband's concentrated on self improvment, yada, yada. The capper was when one of my "girlfriends" told my wife that if she, (wife), didn't take care of her husband, someone else would.

 

Well, eventually jealously crept in. Guess what, the sex bug returned. Not as much as I would have liked, but more than what was happening before.

 

I guess the light went off in my wife's head and she decided she needed to do something to keep her man happy. Even though later on down the road she almost threw it all away. But, that's another story for another day.

[JamesM]

Jamesm, not sure if you got my PM about this.

 

There is a lot of good advice here but ultimately it will come down to what you feel you should do. What you can tolerate and what you can't.

 

 

But personally, if she has given you permission to go outside your marriage and she sticks to this conviction even through numerous discussions, your wife has released you from the fideility portion of your vows.

 

BTDT, my friend.

 

I have your PM and promise to respond. I kinda forgot that I didn't. I really appreciate your advice and I have been thinking about much of it.

 

You are right. I know what I can tolerate. I know that I don't "need" alot of sex. An occasional affirmation does the trick. I do know that a complete rejection simply cuts it all off, and that hurts. And I know that our relationship has suffered. In her mind if I simply move on off of sex, then everything can be great. As I think you said, sex is the enemy.

 

The problem is that if she backs of the sex out of marriage comment but still refuse sex in marriage, then we still have a problem.

 

She has made the "If I had my druthers, then we would have no sex" a couple more times. But puzzling to me is that the few times we have had sex, she has not acted repulsed but enjoyed it to a degree.

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

James, I can really relate to your plight.

 

Sad to say but I don't see your situation ending well either. If she keeps refusing, if she keeps disrespecting you and your marriage (which is exactly what she's doing) then I really don't see any alternative other than divorce.

 

I don't have any advice for you, my friend, other than to let you know that this is extremely common. For me personally, I wouldn't step outside the relationship for sex until the divorce is final for a whole host of reasons.

 

Thank you for your kind words. I have followed your posts and appreciate your insights. Your advice on other threads has been helpful to me as well.

 

If stepping out of the marriage means an affair, I agree wholeheartedly. Beyond that, I am not sure.

[carhill]

James, I think you know you're burning up some of the most valuable years of your life 'researching' and 'figuring' and 'communicating' and 'negotiating' this.

 

End the marriage in a healthy way (MC helped me do that) and continue to be the great father to your children that you are. Those children, seeing their father authentically happy and not pre-occupied (which is what all this is doing to you psychologically) will provide them with a great role model. A man who tried, and wasn't afraid to accept failure and move beyond it in a positive way.

 

I wish you well

[EnigmasMuse]

James, Since you have wondered as well what I had originally asked you, then maybe, that's what you need to demand of her. You had asked if you should demand sex...NO, demand to know why it is she continues to refuse you of what you both once had.

 

I'm not saying be hateful to her about, but really demand to know why this is still going on. There has to be a reason. No one knows but her, but I do not buy the whole "I don't know why" thing that some people might give as an answer.

 

What do you have to lose by point blank asking her WHY things are the way they are. I truly believe that she DOES know why. After all these years and all this time of you wondering and beating your head against the wall, I really think she owes you to tell you WHY.

[Trialbyfire]

James, what are your marital dynamics like, in general? Beyond sex, who's the more dominant partner?

[Lizzie60]

James, I think you know you're burning up some of the most valuable years of your life 'researching' and 'figuring' and 'communicating' and 'negotiating' this.

 

End the marriage in a healthy way (MC helped me do that) and continue to be the great father to your children that you are. Those children, seeing their father authentically happy and not pre-occupied (which is what all this is doing to you psychologically) will provide them with a great role model. A man who tried, and wasn't afraid to accept failure and move beyond it in a positive way.

 

I wish you well

 

 

In the children's eyes.. there is no healthy way to end a marriage.. they just DON'T WANT their parents to divorce.. and from what I read.. James and her W is about the same as it was with me and my ex... we got along fine.. the kids had noooo idea I hated sex..

 

Kids don't know these things.. and if you are good parents.. they don't even know things are not going smoothly... they just don't... I will NEVER agree with that... especially when kids are younger..

 

I have to disagree that divorcing would be providing the kids a good role model.. in THIS case.

[carhill]

James is not a female and you are not a male role model. You will never be able to understand relationship dynamics from a man's perspective, no matter how many men you have. Sorry

[Mz. Pixie]

You know how I feel about this James.

 

You cannot go out and "get it elsewhere" because you've been starving so long if you let someone else meet that need- well you'll end up divorced anyway.

 

Forreal had a great post I thought. You need to really lay it down for her and let her know you expect these changes to be permanent- not just done for four months.

 

It's not fair to you to live like this- it's only fair for her. She gets all the benefits of you guys being married while you don't get your primary need met.

 

I'm sorry you're still experiencing this. You have tried so hard in this area only to continue to be rejected.

 

If sex is triggering her everytime then she needs to seek some counseling. Get some meds. Life is too short to be a martyr.

 

She needs to put on her big girl panties and deal. Why would it kill her to slap some enthusiastic sex on you a little more than she does? It's not like it would always be a 3-4 hour session.

[Lizzie60]

James is not a female and you are not a male role model. You will never be able to understand relationship dynamics from a man's perspective, no matter how many men you have. Sorry

 

I was not referring to any gender in particular.. it goes for both IMO.

[JackJack]

"Life is too short to be a martyr".

 

 

This is what I think every time I see or hear about someone staying in an unhappy situation. Sorry.

[carhill]

I was not referring to any gender in particular.. it goes for both IMO

Nope. I watched my father carefully as a child and knew when he and my mother were at odds, even though they had a long and healthy marriage. You may think you can hide things from children, and more power to you for thinking that, but it's simply not true. You can hide the facts, but the feelings and impressions are transparent to the mind and emotions of a child. Jame's children know something is up and it's not healthy. They don't know the penis/vagina stuff, which is appropriate, but that dynamic permeates the rest of the aura of the family.

 

What is James afraid of? Think about that James... fear is your enemy, not your wife.

[JamesM]

Thank you, carhill, I am not a female. Thanks for the laugh.

 

However, much as I respect your advice, at this point I do agree with Lizzie. Maybe someday if our marriage is different, then I will think differently.

 

However, now, she has the perspective that I would deem is correct. The kids have no clue what i am going through. Occasionally they may see us fighting (but usually not about sex), and since I am probably the main stable parental figure in their life, a divorce would do incredible damage. Irreversible.

 

It might achieve one thing....my wife would certainly take that as an ultimatum and do what she could to change but unless she figures out what is behind all of this (or at least tells me), then things will eventually return to normal like they did three years ago.

 

If I divorced over the lack of sex, then I have no doubt that I would be the bad guy for years to come, and that opinion may never change. This would have such an impact on them and their relationship to me that I think celibacy is a better option for me. And I am guessing my wife knows this.

 

If it makes my wife truly happy to never have sex, then believe it or not, I will do what I can do to make her happy. Getting it elsewhere may be a short term answer. But, I do not think it WILL make her happy. I just think she either has something she isn't telling me or she truly is confused as to what her feelings are.

 

The problem is....I am helpless without her help. Any conversations (as you can see) lead to nowhere.

 

What we need is a Bridge to Nowhere. (Sorry I couldn't resist. Sometimes humor does help._)

[Lizzie60]

Nope. I watched my father carefully as a child and knew when he and my mother were at odds, even though they had a long and healthy marriage. You may think you can hide things from children, and more power to you for thinking that, but it's simply not true. You can hide the facts, but the feelings and impressions are transparent to the mind and emotions of a child. Jame's children know something is up and it's not healthy. They don't know the penis/vagina stuff, which is appropriate, but that dynamic permeates the rest of the aura of the family.

 

What is James afraid of? Think about that James... fear is your enemy, not your wife.

 

How do you know James' children know? Maybe they don't.. I honestly doubt they do..

 

All parents have their ups and downs.. so it's normal... children get used to that ... but to know there is a deep issue with the marriage.. I disagree.. they don't... I'm sure that in most cases (I'm talking about good parents) the kids don,t know...

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.. Car..

[carhill]

I know people like you, people who have stayed. They must experience life on a totally different plane than I do. What you describe, to me, is like death, death of the soul. God have mercy. Good luck

[Lizzie60]

I should add.. my first ex and I rarely had 'fights' ... the kids had absolutely nooooo idea what was going on.. and when I left.. everyone fell out of their chair.. so to speak... no one saw this coming..

 

Good parents DO NOT fight in front of the children for those personal issues.. (especially about sex) 'hillbillies' do...

 

That's why I think that in most cases, children have NO idea that their parents have sex problems..

[blair08]

Thank you, carhill, I am not a female. Thanks for the laugh.

 

However, much as I respect your advice, at this point I do agree with Lizzie. Maybe someday if our marriage is different, then I will think differently.

 

However, now, she has the perspective that I would deem is correct. The kids have no clue what i am going through. Occasionally they may see us fighting (but usually not about sex), and since I am probably the main stable parental figure in their life, a divorce would do incredible damage. Irreversible.

 

It might achieve one thing....my wife would certainly take that as an ultimatum and do what she could to change but unless she figures out what is behind all of this (or at least tells me), then things will eventually return to normal like they did three years ago.

 

If I divorced over the lack of sex, then I have no doubt that I would be the bad guy for years to come, and that opinion may never change. This would have such an impact on them and their relationship to me that I think celibacy is a better option for me. And I am guessing my wife knows this.

 

If it makes my wife truly happy to never have sex, then believe it or not, I will do what I can do to make her happy. Getting it elsewhere may be a short term answer. But, I do not think it WILL make her happy. I just think she either has something she isn't telling me or she truly is confused as to what her feelings are.

 

The problem is....I am helpless without her help. Any conversations (as you can see) lead to nowhere.

 

What we need is a Bridge to Nowhere. (Sorry I couldn't resist. Sometimes humor does help._)

 

It sounds like you've made up your mind to stay regardless. So with that being said, I do not know what else to tell you James, since right many people here have already offered you some advice/suggestions.

 

I do believe you love and care for you wife regardless of the lack of sex etc. I also believe you are mainly choosing to stay not only for your kids, but for yourself as well. Obviously you are getting something from the marriage, far more so than that of how often you get sex etc.

 

I wish you well in whatever happens. Because right now, it looks as if whats been happening, is what is going to keep happening.

[Lizzie60]

Ops.. I couldn't edit my post.. I wanted to add:`

 

That's why I think that in most cases, children have NO idea that their parents have sex problems.. when every other aspects of the family life is great.

[Trialbyfire]

James, I hope you're not looking for validation to seek or have engaged in, sex outside the marriage.

[JamesM]

Thanks, Ms Pixie. I truly love it when you give me advice. If I followed it, then I may be better off. At this point getting a discussion going about sex is difficult at best and futile at worst.

 

 

 

Nope. I watched my father carefully as a child and knew when he and my mother were at odds, even though they had a long and healthy marriage.

 

What is James afraid of? Think about that James... fear is your enemy, not your wife.

 

I do not think they never know when we are fighting. I know they do. But they would never suspect that it would lead to divorce. And I do not think my wife nor I do either. But as I said just a bit ago, divorcing for a reason such as sex would not even be a half way good reason for children.

 

No, it is more than fear. It is a complete upheaval of everyone in my family. It is the damage that I will do to the children. To me this is an incredibly selfish reason to tear their lives completely apart.

 

Perhaps the threat of divorce would "heal" the marriage, but based on most everyone's stories, it would not. It may temporarily solve the problem, but I don't think it would create love for sex that wasn't there. Perhaps it would be a wakeup call, but I think that my wife would more be in denial and decide that I have left her inwardly already with such a statement. Her response would either be a desperate change to keep me until I settled back in or an angry retaliation so that everybody was affected.

 

And yes, it really hurts to think I would damage my wife...even if she is hurting me by withholding. While I feel hopeless in how to solve the problem, I still contain a small amount of hope inside that one day something will change. After a divorce is final, I will have lost everything for what? And just because you (or anyone reading this) has become happier, at this point, I know that losing my children, my life, and above all, my best friend would be devastating.

 

That is what hurts...the rejection physically by my best friend.

[Kasan]

What we need is a Bridge to Nowhere. (Sorry I couldn't resist. Sometimes humor does help._)

 

Perhaps what is needed instead is a line in the sand JamesM.

 

You have been here since 2005 patiently researching causes for a lack of libido.

 

Carhill makes some valid points (and I am not a man ) about more years with a lack of intimacy.

 

I think it might be time to ruffle some feathers, at the very least you might find out what the "real issue" is.

 

since I am probably the main stable parental figure in their life, a divorce would do incredible damage. Irreversible.

 

I find this statement a little disturbing I will admit.

[GorillaTheater]

If I divorced over the lack of sex, then I have no doubt that I would be the bad guy for years to come, and that opinion may never change. This would have such an impact on them and their relationship to me that I think celibacy is a better option for me. And I am guessing my wife knows this.

 

James, I understand your concern over your kids. But may I gently suggest that the above is your greatest fear over seeking a divorce? Don't get me wrong, for the sake of you and your marriage I dearly hope this gets resolved, but I also believe that divorce is a better option than going outside the marriage for sex.

 

You can't control your wife. You can't control what she'll say about the reasons for a divorce, regardless of what the reasons truly are. I would recommend not allowing your reputation to be as big of a factor in your decision-making process as it apparently is. I believe that you're a good man, and that's just from reading your posts. I have no doubt that those who really know you would think less of you based on the reasons for a divorce. I think they would be disappointed and sad to see the marriage end, but you would not become the villain.

[carhill]

Good parents DO NOT fight in front of the children for those personal issues.. (especially about sex) 'hillbillies' do...

 

My parents never disagreed in front of me. That was a great life lesson they taught me. Their marriage (and how they negotiated parenting me) was their private business. I still sensed things, as I'm doing right now. IMO, James has himself talked into this and he's going with it. I'll support that, but am advising him of a different path. His choice.

 

James, if you filed for divorce today, how would your life change? I've done it, so I know for me. What do you think?

 

I'm thinking that your thinking, if you did, you still wouldn't get any sexual intimacy and you'd also have all the other negative things that go along with divorce and a family. Painful things. And still no sex. Interesting, isn't it?

[Angel1111]

Divorce is not an option for many reasons, and one is because this is not a dealbreaker in that sense. And while this is not a good reason in many eyes, staying for the children is a good enough reason for me. Five years ago, I may not have felt so strongly, but now, I cannot imagine doing that to them especially since overall, our family is getting along great. For those with children, I think they can better understand.

 

We do not argue any more than most. We still kiss. We still have a fun time talking with each other. We still are great friends. I would still rather go out with her (or by myself) than with anyone else.

 

There are more positives than negatives.

 

Emotionally, I don't think I could handle an affair. It would be too much fun, and my energies would be directed to it. I also do not have the time.

 

I almost wish I could find out that there was someone else, because then I would have a reason. Then we could decide...fix this, or leave. And I think we both would try to fix it. Quite possibly there was no on else, but I guess I have no way of knowing.

 

Then she holds all the cards and you have no room to negotiate in this situation. And I'm sure she already knew that. I say, condition yourself to live a life without love-making and you'll both be fine.