Question for women: Why do women fall for jerks?

[001bh]

Wow caliguy those are some very wise words (earlier in the thread). So my question is where do we find well balanced people? Is it just hit or miss? I don't really feel comfortable in bars, one because I don't really like to drink a whole lot and most of the girls I meet there come off as very attractive yet lacking in substance. The problem is I've met women when I was in college who had lots of substance but they weren't really into trying relationships or they didn't like to drink at all. Not that we need to drink but I do apreciate get togethers where maybe there's some wine or a casual atsmosphere where people aren't going crazy and getting drunk.

[001bh]

So I'm stuck with boring or crazy, neither of which I like.

[stillafool]

No, actually Carhill has it spot-on. You're the one not getting it.

No, you're the one doing the demeaning. By subscribing to this nonsensical fantasy that, "Oh, it's LURVVE!!!" and "With my love I can change him!!" and "He's just a softie in his heart!!!" and all the rest, you're demeaning women and a woman's ability to make a rational, cogent decision based on good old-fashioned common sense. All your talk of the woman being the victim doesn't help either.

 

There's a prison close by where I live and guys get released from there pretty much every day. Want me to introduce you to some of them? Those are the true bad boys. The rest are just posers.

 

Hey, if you want to do the whole bad-boy routine, by all means go right ahead. Someone will be by in due time to pick up the pieces.

 

 

As a woman I absolutely agree Thaddeus! All of us have been hurt in one way or another in this life. That gives us no excuse to treat others badly. I am so sick of people using excuses for bad behavior. I think a single woman with no responsibilities staying with a guy who treats her bad should use some common sense and move on. These women are not victims they are masochists. I certainly wouldn't call a guy who treats women badly someone with "good genes" that I would want to mate with. I certainly wouldn't want a son to learn a man's behavior by someone who would treat women this way and is selfish. Women need to start thinking with their heads instead of what's between their legs.

[CaliGuy]

Wow caliguy those are some very wise words (earlier in the thread). So my question is where do we find well balanced people? Is it just hit or miss? I don't really feel comfortable in bars, one because I don't really like to drink a whole lot and most of the girls I meet there come off as very attractive yet lacking in substance. The problem is I've met women when I was in college who had lots of substance but they weren't really into trying relationships or they didn't like to drink at all. Not that we need to drink but I do apreciate get togethers where maybe there's some wine or a casual atsmosphere where people aren't going crazy and getting drunk.

 

Well, I tend to meet them at the gas station, grocery store, hanging at the beach, etc. I tend to NOT try to pick a potential date from a night club (I don't go that often anyway).

 

Well balance simply comes from healthy levels of confidence and self-esteem. I specify HEALTHY levels because you can have too much (arrogant and unfounded jerks/players) or too little (door mat nice guys).

 

It's not uncommon for me to start a conversation with the cute single woman pumping gas next to me

[amerikajin]

Synopsis of now-retracted diatribe confirms that my jerk idol, still alive and mostly well in Corcoran State Prison, does indeed have a heart and distinct personality, albeit trending to the schizophrenic.

 

A bigger question begs how women can so easily dismiss a non-jerk who pisses them off with (and I speak from experience here) placing a boundary on what behaviors he'll accept while the jerk can manipulate and threaten as much as the day is long and the woman will stick to him like glue and defend him to the death? I've seen such stories many times here on LS.

 

IMO, it really comes down to a sick attraction overruling logic and life experience. Seriously. Every time I see it I just think wow, glad I dodged that bullet. I'm also finding it makes the ladies who do appreciate and respond to non-jerk behaviors shine like lights (their aura) regardless of whether or not they are attracted to me. Beacons of hope in the darkness.

 

Great post, Carhill.

 

I think that a lot of drama queens simply live life not knowing what really makes them happy. Such women lack a core value system that enables them to define for themselves what is acceptable and unacceptable, so someone else has to come in and define things for them. Maybe it stems from the way they were raised. Maybe they lived in a messed up household growing up, and maybe the jerk is the person who comes in and laws down the law. Sometimes, despite the fact that a woman is dating a jerk, the jerk gives the woman what she is looking for: answers, structure, restrictions on her behavior to compensate for her sense of personal dysfunction and disorder. You won't see a jerk dating a woman who has inner-confidence because she's autonomous enough to take care of herself, and the jerk is nothing but an unwelcome pain in the derriere. The bad news is, I don't know what can be done to deal with a woman who depends on this kind of miniaturized tyrant to control her. So I guess my advice is, if a guy is dating a drama queen, he ought to exit stage right before he gets too involved.

[carhill]

"Why do you not feel worthy of my love, yet feel worthy of his abuse?"

 

Silence

 

I'm shaking a bit from crawling around in a 120 degree attic installing HVAC ducts, but I'll cough this out...

 

As long as women continue to choose such potentials, value such potentials, be with such potentials, bear children with such potentials, socialize children with such potentials, both boys and girls, this cycle will continue. It's often said here on LS that women are the gatekeepers of sex, the arbiters of relationships. That's a lot of power, IMO. With that power comes responsibility. It starts with each one of us. Make a difference. The good men of the world are trying. We need your help.

[001bh]

Damn we can't pump our own gas in NJ.......

 

Lately I've been trying to find women at my local airport (where I'm getting my private pilot's license) so far have not seen any under 40. (Keep in mind I'm 22.) I do get to pump my own avgas though.

[carhill]

I've met a lot of young female pilots flying for the regionals (Skywest, GoJet, Mesa, TransStates). Most have been in their 20's and 30's. Most of the older female pilots (my age) fly widebodies for the majors. The also fly general aviation in their spare time. I can't think of one female pilot I've met so far who was arrogant or a biotch. All have been friendly, knowlegable, and love to talk aviation to a hobbyist (me). So, keep pumping the avgas. The right one will show up.

[sally4sara]

"Why do you not feel worthy of my love, yet feel worthy of his abuse?"

 

Silence

 

I'm shaking a bit from crawling around in a 120 degree attic installing HVAC ducts, but I'll cough this out...

 

As long as women continue to choose such potentials, value such potentials, be with such potentials, bear children with such potentials, socialize children with such potentials, both boys and girls, this cycle will continue. It's often said here on LS that women are the gatekeepers of sex, the arbiters of relationships. That's a lot of power, IMO. With that power comes responsibility. It starts with each one of us. Make a difference. The good men of the world are trying. We need your help.

 

That can be a tall order in a world where people will still raise their daughters to be passive pink piles of receptive giggles for men with the right wallet size. And to put all the responsibility of sex on women while we still raise our boys to put girls in categories of "worthy" and "unworthy but still good for sex" is counter productive to your request.

Men who want their daughter to be sweet feminine wifey material but can't even be faithful to their mother......

Women who act appalled about misogyny but can't see how they instill in it their son's who see them treat their fathers like a bank accounts.....

 

These two examples are not even the entirety of the contradictions we wear everyday. If I suggest teaching girls to go after their own money and not let themselves be bought - I get men telling me how they can't abide my feminist views nor will they risk butching out their daughters to emasculate men once she is a woman. They will still complain about gold diggers and unfair court ordered support. If I say it is unfair to push sex on a boy who is too young to properly field the potential messes being sexually promiscuous can bring them - I get looked at like I just grew a second head. What kind of father could fathom not encouraging their boy to score as often and with as many as possible? Mothers act like doing this risks "making their son gay". Its all a mess.

 

It starts at home and we do nothing beyond complaining once the boys and girls are grown and making messes like small yappy dogs in the park.

[Trialbyfire]

Once again, we're polarized by using examples of extreme behaviours to explain attraction.

 

Do we all have the same values in life? If we're all individuals, then individual dealbreakers will exist. While one person might consider cheating a dealbreaker, another might consider it not a big deal. One person might consider being cursed at on a regular basis a dealbreaker, while another shrugs and swears back.

 

And yes, I also struggle with understanding other people and their tolerance levels but this is my burden to bear. Life's really not that difficult.

[Isolde]

^ And I'll add that some women probably date these "jerks" because they may be predictable and a way to avoid investing emotions seriously... it's possible such a scenario wouldn't be due to insecurities alone.

[Lizzie60]

I haven't read the thread.. but to answer your question I think women are attracted to jerks.. like men are attracted to 'biotches'..

 

Jerks and biotches don't take crap.. I think that's what makes them attractive..

[001bh]

Dude carhill you're my new best friend! So far all the chicks I talk to are either terrified of of the 3rd dimension, or they aren't really all that interested. I'm trying to convince one girl that I'm falling for right now to go on a short hop (20nm) to a little strip that happens to have a restaurant that you can taxi up to. So far she thinks it's cool but wants me to get more miles (I would say hours) but I've been at this for almost a year now. Just need to pass the written and then the 150nm solo xc and then the checkride.

[Hkizzle]

I still feel the tendency for parents to push seeking sex as a test of masculinity and co-dependency the test for femininity to be the biggest and longest standing cause of human folly. .

 

This is probably the biggest BS theory sociology has ever come up with. There are natural differences in men and women that exist because of the when the human species evolved.

 

Getting into those differences will require a new thread. But let's just say you can switch on the discovery channel and see that every species has natural differences between male and female of the species and that's not down to social conditioning.

 

Whilst societies like Afghanistan create huge differences between men and women, I would argue that in the US because of the feminist movement, natural behavioral differences in sex between men and women have actually decreased and not increased.

[sally4sara]

This is probably the biggest BS theory sociology has ever come up with. There are natural differences in men and women that exist because of the when the human species evolved.

 

Yup, last time I checked, I had two ovaries a uterus, and a vagina along with the ability to grow a child within - as evidenced by my son. If I didn't have these things from birth, I'd probably have a penis and more testosterone resulting in a larger likelihood of being larger than I am now as an adult female.

Beyond that - till we have a society accepting all actions by both genders no matter how much they differ from commonality - differences being natural can only be guessed and theorized.

 

 

Whilst societies like Afghanistan create huge differences between men and women, I would argue that in the US because of the feminist movement, natural behavioral differences in sex between men and women have actually decreased and not increased.

 

And yet you say its a large accumulation of BS to think our differences could be simple plumbing?

[Hkizzle]

Yup, last time I checked, I had two ovaries a uterus, and a vagina along with the ability to grow a child within - as evidenced by my son. If I didn't have these things from birth, I'd probably have a penis and more testosterone resulting in a larger likelihood of being larger than I am now as an adult female.

Beyond that - till we have a society accepting all actions by both genders no matter how much they differ from commonality - differences being natural can only be guessed and theorized.

 

 

And yet you say its a large accumulation of BS to think our differences could be simple plumbing?

 

No of course I'm not talking about natural physical differences but natural behavioural differences.

 

There's been plenty of books that've been written on the subject. The most famous being Men are from MArs, Women are from Venus. Whilst that is a crap book there's many more that correctly point out that male and female brains are simply differenet. That's not new news in the Neroscience world.

 

Just use one of many examples. Porn and prostitution, why is it wahy more men pay for sex? Prostitution is the oldest profession in the World, and can be found in EVERY country in the world even if illegal, that's how much demand there is for it.

 

Any product and service is not supply driven. You don't create the product then tell people they must by it. There has to be the demand or the product doesn't sell.

 

There are clear behavioral differences between men and women when it comes to relationships and sex. In America it's been almost politically incorrect to point that out for some reason.

[Meaplus3]

This is one for the ladies. Your input welcome.

 

Why is it even with women's ability to sniff out bull****, so many women still fall for jerks? Just want to see your view on the subject.

 

Well, I'm still looking for the anwers to this question! Especially after I fell for one online..that vanished on me. After about 13 months contact was made and now the guy claims he got married. I'm not buying that. I think all along he was married or engaged.. and did not tell me. I should have smelled the BS a mile away, and realized that things just did not add up. But, I let my trust.. and gullable ways take over on this one. I really need to learn to STOP falling for these types of jerks. And Jerk is a good word for men like this!!

 

Mea:)

[stillafool]

In America it's been almost politically incorrect to point that out for some reason.

 

Why do you say that?

[Hkizzle]

Why do you say that?

 

When I say this I am not saying this because I look down on America.

 

No am i saying this because I think I got some superior wisdom.

 

I call it the way it really is.

 

Every culture has it's way of viewing things, and each culture has valid reasons.

 

The Iraq war was a good example. You got loads of Muslim countries that hate America because they feel America intrudes on them (just imagine if Turkey, Saudi Arabia and a bunch of muslim countries had military bases in America). On the other hand America felt angry and scared and wanted to punish the people responsible for 9/11.

 

That seems very far from relationships, but really when it comes to different cultures, it's applicable because you see how different cultures polarize their views based on their opinions.

 

I live in Asia, and in terms of morals I find it the most politicallly incorrect society. People here cheat like crazy. What they do here is, they don't fight human nature. If men want to act like animals, they can get away with it without society looking down on them.

 

In America there's the opposite, for a long time people embraced human nature (up to the 1960's) and as a result there was racism and sexism. When it was evident racism and sexism was wrong they swung the other way, but swung to an extreme.

 

Human nature is always the same. Pretty brutal, from selfishness in relationships to terrorists killing people, to some pilot dropping a 500lb bomb on terrorists and killing some random civilans by accident.

 

Everyone justifies their own opinion. But human nature doesn't change, it's always selfish.

 

What's interesting is when you have lived in different cultures and you TRULY see the reasons for why that arrive at their opinions. Then you realize that a lot of cultures swing to extremes. In Asia a lot of culures don't fight against selfishness enough, and in America a lot of people try to be politically correct without even understanding why.

 

When you truly see the truth it's rather interesting.

 

Hope that's not too complex, if you want me to elaborate I will.

[Hkizzle]

Well, I'm still looking for the anwers to this question! Especially after I fell for one online..that vanished on me. After about 13 months contact was made and now the guy claims he got married. I'm not buying that. I think all along he was married or engaged.. and did not tell me. I should have smelled the BS a mile away, and realized that things just did not add up. But, I let my trust.. and gullable ways take over on this one. I really need to learn to STOP falling for these types of jerks. And Jerk is a good word for men like this!!

 

Mea:)

 

This is something I thought all women knew until I spoke to my ex-GF that was 26, slept with a guy and he disappeared on her, and she didn't know why.

 

Men and women differe in 1 aspect. Although women like sex and many women can have 1 night stands. Women don't spend a huge amount of money and time chasing after a man just for sex.

 

Men do that because the chase is a thrill and they can have sex without emotions linked to it. Just look at men paying for porn and sex.

 

Therefore in order to filter out the right guys, you need to know if a man is hitting on you because he truly likes you, or just hitting on you for sex.

 

That's the difference between decent guys and jerks. Most women however only realize the difference when it's too late. I'm writing a book to explain the way the "game" is played and how to spot insincere men early.

[Taramere]

This is one for the ladies. Your input welcome.

 

Why is it even with women's ability to sniff out bull****, so many women still fall for jerks? Just want to see your view on the subject.

 

I think that people look for challenges while they're developing, and that trying to make difficult relationships work is a challenge a lot of people will take up. Although relationships with "jerks" (or maybe in some cases, simply men who aren't all that into them) are unlikely to work, the woman might pick up some valuable learning and skills in the process of at least trying to make it work. Same goes with a man who's trying to make a difficult relationship work.

 

From the outside it might seem that the person is engaged in a futile and time-wasting venture - but for all the outsiders know, engaging in that venture might be something they need to go through to learn something important about themselves. What their boundaries and triggers are, what makes them feel happy and confident - and what poses a threat to their happiness and confidence. Not so different from going into a difficult work situation which might seem tremendously challenging, but that will give the person some important skills - if they survive it.

 

This site spends a lot of time either trying to protect people from, or berating them for, getting into relationships with the wrong people. But you have to question what real value there is in trying to protect people from or berate them for living their lives, making a few mistakes along the way and learning from them.

 

Most women however only realize the difference when it's too late. I'm writing a book to explain the way the "game" is played and how to spot insincere men early.

 

Your notion of an insincere man might be someone who will make a relationship work well once he finds the right woman. Bar the odd psychopath, men are not machines. They are human beings who have all kinds of conflicts. Empathy versus anger/frustration and wanting power over others. Desiring the approval of other men versus wanting female approval. Wanting a hot woman to gain status, versus wanting a woman they feel happy and comfortable with.

 

What you term a jerk might simply be a man who hasn't made much progress in resolving conflicts like those. I'd question the validity and helpfulness of any book that purported to tell me how to spot "a jerk". It suggests that either the author thinks in very black and white (not to mention somewhat misandrist) terms, or that they're rather cynically exploiting the need vulnerable readers have to see the world in black and white in order to make it seem like a safer and more predictable place.

[sally4sara]

I think that people look for challenges while they're developing, and that trying to make difficult relationships work is a challenge a lot of people will take up. Although relationships with "jerks" (or maybe in some cases, simply men who aren't all that into them) are unlikely to work, the woman might pick up some valuable learning and skills in the process of at least trying to make it work. Same goes with a man who's trying to make a difficult relationship work.

 

From the outside it might seem that the person is engaged in a futile and time-wasting venture - but for all the outsiders know, engaging in that venture might be something they need to go through to learn something important about themselves. What their boundaries and triggers are, what makes them feel happy and confident - and what poses a threat to their happiness and confidence. Not so different from going into a difficult work situation which might seem tremendously challenging, but that will give the person some important skills - if they survive it.

 

This site spends a lot of time either trying to protect people from, or berating them for, getting into relationships with the wrong people. But you have to question what real value there is in trying to protect people from or berate them for living their lives, making a few mistakes along the way and learning from them.

 

 

 

Your notion of an insincere man might be someone who will make a relationship work well once he finds the right woman. Bar the odd psychopath, men are not machines. They are human beings who have all kinds of conflicts. Empathy versus anger/frustration and wanting power over others. Desiring the approval of other men versus wanting female approval. Wanting a hot woman to gain status, versus wanting a woman they feel happy and comfortable with.

 

What you term a jerk might simply be a man who hasn't made much progress in resolving conflicts like those. I'd question the validity and helpfulness of any book that purported to tell me how to spot "a jerk". It suggests that either the author thinks in very black and white (not to mention somewhat misandrist) terms, or that they're rather cynically exploiting the need vulnerable readers have to see the world in black and white in order to make it seem like a safer and more predictable place.

 

Exactly. You always say it better Taramere!

Being a "jerk" or "gullible fool" is often a matter of situational perception. I'm sure a person can be honorable in a relationship despite less honorable actions made years ago or in other unsuccessful relationships. A person can have an unhealthy relationship with one person but it doesn't mean they will forever have unhealthy relationships.

These thread themes have a tendency to be more about shaming and assigning blame rather than fostering a better understanding.

[Isolde]

Taramere makes some excellent points, but it's also all relative. I think most people on this board are capable of distinguishing between a relationship with a guy who is basically a decent person but makes some serious mistakes at a juncture in the relationship; and a relationship with a guy who's a serial cheater or ignores all of a woman's needs, emotional or physical.

 

Again it's all reliant on how you define a jerk. But I think there are definitely patterns of behavior that distinguish some men from others in how they handle relationships. I'd further argue there's a difference between acting like a jerk, and actually being one.

 

While there's no sense in insulating yourself from the world and its vagaries, there's also not much sense in undergoing rites of passage that may be avoidable if you learn to recognize signals that a guy isn't committed, whether he's type 1) or type 2) that I described in the first paragraph.

[sally4sara]

That's the difference between decent guys and jerks. Most women however only realize the difference when it's too late. I'm writing a book to explain the way the "game" is played and how to spot insincere men early.

 

It is neuro-linguistic programming and it is not an exclusive male ability effecting only women nor is it limited to dating. You're book will be as faulty as the book inspiring it because it suggests women are natural born victims and men are natural born victimizers. Who are you hoping to help really?

[Trialbyfire]

The only definitive way to spot insincere men is through time and exposure. Once you get a baseline pattern for behaviour, look to deviations. Consider it a form of trending analysis!