Question for women: Why do women fall for jerks?

[Yamaha]

What I love is how the good guy is supposed to wait until the girl grows up and is finished dating the bad boy. Then she will come looking for the good guy with HIS baby in arm and he's supposed to be so happy helping her raise a family.

 

Good guys need to pass on these girls because they believe the nice guy will be around after she has had her fun chasing the jerk. Wake up good guys and look for someone who wants you the way you are, now.

[Hkizzle]

What I love is how the good guy is supposed to wait until the girl grows up and is finished dating the bad boy. Then she will come looking for the good guy with HIS baby in arm and he's supposed to be so happy helping her raise a family.

 

Good guys need to pass on these girls because they believe the nice guy will be around after she has had her fun chasing the jerk. Wake up good guys and look for someone who wants you the way you are, now.

 

That's classic "cuckoo" effect in evolutionary biology theory. Mate with the guy with the good genes, then get a more steady partner to look after the family.

[CaliGuy]

That's classic "cuckoo" effect in evolutionary biology theory. Mate with the guy with the good genes, then get a more steady partner to look after the family.

 

When men wise up, this will stop happening

 

(I for one am not picking up the pieces a bad boy leaves behind...)

[carhill]

And just exactly how do these losers have 'good' genes? I'm still quite unclear how they contribute to human evolution in any meaningful way. Look around at the people who make a true difference in the world, who nurture 'man'kind's evolution and growth; there's your 'genes'. The others are just slaves to biology. How boring...

[Yamaha]

Mate with the guy with the good genes, then get a more steady partner to look after the family.

 

How good can his genes be if he's willing to leave the nest and find her replacement? Genes are more than just physical and environmental factors. They are personality, honor, integrity, kindness, ETC.........

I guess all the things the good genes guy lacks.

[Chicago_Guy]

What I love is how the good guy is supposed to wait until the girl grows up and is finished dating the bad boy. Then she will come looking for the good guy with HIS baby in arm and he's supposed to be so happy helping her raise a family.

 

Good guys need to pass on these girls because they believe the nice guy will be around after she has had her fun chasing the jerk. Wake up good guys and look for someone who wants you the way you are, now.

 

Why on earth would a "good guy" want to raise an ex-party girl's illegitimate children? Only a fool would marry a woman like that.

[EarthGirl]

Honestly I fell for his eyes, his voice, the way he walked, then later his heart, his humor...

 

The problem is the "bad boys" DO have hearts...The problem is that women love to love people with hearts.

 

And you know the worst part of it for me...was that, how do I explain this...his mind was such that he did have a heart and he also was a very very broken soul. lots and lots of really horrible stuff had happened to him in his life. And the thing was he used not only his REAL hurts, but also his REAL affection and love for the world and for me, etc....

 

except that...even though PART of it was real..part of it was completely manufactured and it was complete manipulation. It was almost like he kind of remembered what it was like to feel ...you know like things like compassion and empathy...he remembered and he used his memories to ACT and to pretend that he was feeling it at the time he was with me, but he really wasn't. But the acting was so completely flawless, that for a while there was no way for me to know. And then by the time I found out I was in so deep that ...you know love is just hard to let go....everybody here knows that.

 

And I think a lot of it is about power. Some people really need power in order to feel they are worth something. Those would be the bad boys. And other people like me don't need any power at all, only to be respected and noticed.

 

Actually I'm throwing out an entirely new theory here...I think yes sometimes women who have a past history of abuse or whatever tend to be drawn to "bad boys"..or maybe some women even if they had a really happy childhood may be attracted to the danger and mystery for their own reasons. But I also think that women who, like me, just don't have an instinctual understanding of power dynamics like some people..and essentially believe that love is never about power...we really get the raw end of the deal.

 

In a way it's really a sign of a healthier soul I think that a person does not go into any relationships expecting to play games and to protect themselves. And no offense to the men, I am not a misandrist, I love men I promise,but there are a LOT of bad boys out there (in the arena of romantic love, that does not mean they are criminals and they do not love their grandma, and they would not give their life saving a child in trouble, you know), and to say that some women who are consistently attracted to them because the women are defective in some way, does not account to the prevalence of them. Really it's no surprise a woman would run into them multiple times in her dating life.

 

I also think that although everyone will tell you you need to have confidence and "love yourself" before anyone can love you. That by you loving yourself, that will magically make others love you too...well there may be some truth to that (although I think it is a pretty sick cliche and does not say much about humanity). But I also think that if you are a woman who is dating a man that maybe has "bad boy tendencies" and perhaps you just don't know it yet...If a woman in a situation like that shows too much strength and confidence in herself, that can piss him off and make him more likely to either insult you, withdraw emotionally..anything to keep you down and keep him in the power. It may also piss him off if you are too emotional and clingy, so you really just can't win unless you are just a little unsure of yourself and insecure so he does not get scared but you don't rock the boat by being too proud of yourself....and that can only last so long.

 

But anyway I was saying..I am proposing a new theory which is that some women (maybe not all) who tend to end up with bad boys, are actually a group that is healthier emotionally and personality wise than your average women because they are people who do not meet a person and assess and look for signs of manipulation because being people who do not manipulate, they would not know what to look for. When they see a man they are attracted to, and they get to know him and they like the way he seems to think and they find themselves laughing at his jokes, they call that like. And if they feel they have bonded with his soul in some way, they call that love.

 

I'm really tired of people saying things like "love does not hurt" and women fall for bad boys because they like the mystery and they want him to change for her so she can feel special that she was the only woman he would do it for. The reality is love is about finding someone who you like in PARTICULAR as opposed to the billions of other people on this planet.

 

Being that "bad boys" do have hearts and do have distinct personalities beyond their manipulative and evil ways, it's not surprising that women will fall for them, just like they would any other guy.

[EarthGirl]

p.s. Caliguy- guys calling women "arm candy" and using terms like "wife potential"...major "red flags" in my mind.

 

warning to all women, some "bad boys" will get crew cuts and wear khakis and claim they they are the nice boys, lure you in, hurt you, and then blame all us women for being too stupid to notice red flags and/or for being so weak and slutty and shallow to be seduced by the bad boys' mysterious ways.

 

I think something really has to change about putting the blame where it really should be. When you shake someone's hand in a friendly gesture thinking they're just a friendly person and they squeeze it so hard as to break your hand..do you blame the person who extending their hand in friendship or do you blame the person who perpetrated the act of violence?

 

Bad boys are just like what they say about pedophiles, some of them look like just what you'd expect and some of them look just like normal people (NOT saying bad boys tend to be pedophiles or that these crimes are on the same level at ALL, in my mind doing that to a child is about one of the most evil things that could exist, that is just my opinion). This idea that women should just KNOW somehow is just putting the blame on women for doing nothing wrong except daring to love. And saying that women should not get to choose to love certain people, is just degrading women further.

 

Now as for after you find out what you're really dealing with, that is another matter. Part of the reason some of us keep coming back may actually be past trauma that has caused us to not fully realize our self worth. Part of it may actually be true love, as much as that may be hard for other people to understand, and even if that pisses you off.

 

Some guys that claim to be the "nice guys" and tend to rant about this subject may have been rejected by a woman they really liked in favor of a "bad boy". And she may have rejected him not only because she was more in love with someone else but because he did not treat her any better than the bad boy anyway. But then like I said ANY guy can be a bad boy in matters of the heart. The ONLY thing it's really about is respect. You can be monogomous with a woman and not cheat and have good hygene, but that says nothing of wether you are one of the bad boys or the good guys, you could still be treating her like **** in other ways. Only if a man respects women in general and the woman he loves in particular can he be one of the good guys, not only that but show it in his actions and words. A man does NOT have to worship a woman, only to see her as an equal. It's really simple, you'd think it would be easy, but it's amazing how hard it is to find.

 

(note- I'm kind of using you as an example Caliguy..I did mean to point out the phrases which I thought were a little crass, but I do not really mean that this whole rant/story is true to you, I don't even know you, I have no reason to believe it is so, so don't be offended and please excuse my manners that I used you as a jumping off point)

[Hkizzle]

Honestly I fell for his eyes, his voice, the way he walked, then later his heart, his humor...

 

The problem is the "bad boys" DO have hearts...The problem is that women love to love people with hearts.

 

And you know the worst part of it for me...was that, how do I explain this...his mind was such that he did have a heart and he also was a very very broken soul. lots and lots of really horrible stuff had happened to him in his life. And the thing was he used not only his REAL hurts, but also his REAL affection and love for the world and for me, etc....

 

except that...even though PART of it was real..part of it was completely manufactured and it was complete manipulation. It was almost like he kind of remembered what it was like to feel ...you know like things like compassion and empathy...he remembered and he used his memories to ACT and to pretend that he was feeling it at the time he was with me, but he really wasn't. But the acting was so completely flawless, that for a while there was no way for me to know. And then by the time I found out I was in so deep that ...you know love is just hard to let go....everybody here knows that.

 

And I think a lot of it is about power. Some people really need power in order to feel they are worth something. Those would be the bad boys. And other people like me don't need any power at all, only to be respected and noticed.

 

Actually I'm throwing out an entirely new theory here...I think yes sometimes women who have a past history of abuse or whatever tend to be drawn to "bad boys"..or maybe some women even if they had a really happy childhood may be attracted to the danger and mystery for their own reasons. But I also think that women who, like me, just don't have an instinctual understanding of power dynamics like some people..and essentially believe that love is never about power...we really get the raw end of the deal.

 

In a way it's really a sign of a healthier soul I think that a person does not go into any relationships expecting to play games and to protect themselves. And no offense to the men, I am not a misandrist, I love men I promise,but there are a LOT of bad boys out there (in the arena of romantic love, that does not mean they are criminals and they do not love their grandma, and they would not give their life saving a child in trouble, you know), and to say that some women who are consistently attracted to them because the women are defective in some way, does not account to the prevalence of them. Really it's no surprise a woman would run into them multiple times in her dating life.

 

I also think that although everyone will tell you you need to have confidence and "love yourself" before anyone can love you. That by you loving yourself, that will magically make others love you too...well there may be some truth to that (although I think it is a pretty sick cliche and does not say much about humanity). But I also think that if you are a woman who is dating a man that maybe has "bad boy tendencies" and perhaps you just don't know it yet...If a woman in a situation like that shows too much strength and confidence in herself, that can piss him off and make him more likely to either insult you, withdraw emotionally..anything to keep you down and keep him in the power. It may also piss him off if you are too emotional and clingy, so you really just can't win unless you are just a little unsure of yourself and insecure so he does not get scared but you don't rock the boat by being too proud of yourself....and that can only last so long.

 

But anyway I was saying..I am proposing a new theory which is that some women (maybe not all) who tend to end up with bad boys, are actually a group that is healthier emotionally and personality wise than your average women because they are people who do not meet a person and assess and look for signs of manipulation because being people who do not manipulate, they would not know what to look for. When they see a man they are attracted to, and they get to know him and they like the way he seems to think and they find themselves laughing at his jokes, they call that like. And if they feel they have bonded with his soul in some way, they call that love.

 

I'm really tired of people saying things like "love does not hurt" and women fall for bad boys because they like the mystery and they want him to change for her so she can feel special that she was the only woman he would do it for. The reality is love is about finding someone who you like in PARTICULAR as opposed to the billions of other people on this planet.

 

Being that "bad boys" do have hearts and do have distinct personalities beyond their manipulative and evil ways, it's not surprising that women will fall for them, just like they would any other guy.

 

Wait, you said women like us that don't understand that love is about power. Even by saying it, it shows that you do understand the concept.

[EarthGirl]

Wait, you said women like us that don't understand that love is about power. Even by saying it, it shows that you do understand the concept.

 

yeah I understand it, I just don't want it to be that way.

[Hkizzle]

yeah I understand it, I just don't want it to be that way.

 

I don't want to work but I still have to.

 

I also want world peace but people like blowing each other up.

 

The World is a cruel place, because we're animals competing for limited resources. We should be glad we aren't starving to death in some camp in Africa.

 

Ok, having said all that. What you said does make sense with regards to women that don't want to play games etc and just love.

 

Fine..........

 

Don't play games, but just love someone that doesn't have player characteristics then. See the point?

[carhill]

Synopsis of now-retracted diatribe confirms that my jerk idol, still alive and mostly well in Corcoran State Prison, does indeed have a heart and distinct personality, albeit trending to the schizophrenic.

 

A bigger question begs how women can so easily dismiss a non-jerk who pisses them off with (and I speak from experience here) placing a boundary on what behaviors he'll accept while the jerk can manipulate and threaten as much as the day is long and the woman will stick to him like glue and defend him to the death? I've seen such stories many times here on LS.

 

IMO, it really comes down to a sick attraction overruling logic and life experience. Seriously. Every time I see it I just think wow, glad I dodged that bullet. I'm also finding it makes the ladies who do appreciate and respond to non-jerk behaviors shine like lights (their aura) regardless of whether or not they are attracted to me. Beacons of hope in the darkness.

[EarthGirl]

Synopsis of now-retracted diatribe confirms that my jerk idol, still alive and mostly well in Corcoran State Prison, does indeed have a heart and distinct personality, albeit trending to the schizophrenic.

 

A bigger question begs how women can so easily dismiss a non-jerk who pisses them off with (and I speak from experience here) placing a boundary on what behaviors he'll accept while the jerk can manipulate and threaten as much as the day is long and the woman will stick to him like glue and defend him to the death? I've seen such stories many times here on LS.

 

IMO, it really comes down to a sick attraction overruling logic and life experience. Seriously. Every time I see it I just think wow, glad I dodged that bullet. I'm also finding it makes the ladies who do appreciate and respond to non-jerk behaviors shine like lights (their aura) regardless of whether or not they are attracted to me. Beacons of hope in the darkness.

 

I can only speak for myself....I have no idea what goes through other womens' minds. I don't dismiss non-jerks, I give them a chance (not that I have ever come across that many), see if I like them, if I do I spend more time with them, if I don't, I then dismiss them. Same as I do with "jerks". I give them a chance, see if I like them, if I do I spend more time with them, if I don't, I dismiss them.

 

But when I find a man I like a whole lot, so much that I love him...it's kinda like having a child (not implying that I ever thought of any guy I dated as a child or was motherly in a gross way), a mother ...most mothers at least, will defend their children to the death. No matter what they do, no matter how bad. They may turn them into the police, but they are still going to visit them every week in jail, even if their child is a serial killer. Even if their child hurt them themselves. Being that most "bad boys" are NOT serial killers, and have a heart somewhere in there, albeit maybe it's wandering or buried and maybe they are pretty sick and twisted and evil and merciless when it comes to attempting to love women (I say attempting cause it's not like they really accomplish it) and also perhaps somewhat emotionally abusive to other friends and family as well...it's likely to follow that as mothers are women and women are mothers (even if they don't have kids yet), they are capable of loving a man in a romantic and unconditional way, if he is really the right fit.

 

That may piss you off like hell, and I am not saying that the "bullet" you dodged was right for him and not you. Girls can have psychological problems too and it may send them in the direction of the wrong person. I don't know any of you as people, nor do I know the situation. But it's also possible someone else is really right for you, and even if you are not a bad boy and you treat women with respect (THANK YOU for that, by the way, a round of applause for Carhill)...there may come a day when you find her and there may later come a day when you are more than grateful for the ability of women to love so unconditionally.

 

It's admirable that so many people want to talk about emotional abuse (which is really what "bad boyism" is)...on the net, on Oprah, on Tyra...etc. etc.

 

And I am not a psychologist, but I do not think we will ever BEGIN to understand it without adding into the equation one word: love.

 

I know it sounds mushy and silly and love is not supposed to hurt, but the fact is that love DOES hurt sometimes. And if we talk about this issue without this obvious part of the equation (at least to me it's obvious) and only assume that because a man cheats, lies, degrades, or even beats up a woman he is with...that there must be no true love involved on either side (on the man's side because no one that "bad" is capable of love, and on the woman's because she is just allured by the "bad boy image")..

 

Then we are missing an essential part to understanding the whole thing. Yes, sometimes there ISN'T love involved. Sometimes a woman may stay because she is attracted by the bad boy image and may continue to stay later because that which attracted her is now scaring the **** out of her and she doesn't know how to get out. She may not even love him as a person at all.

 

But one size never fits all. Every situation is different, and more often than not, I think when a woman is asked on a talk show, "why did you stay?"...and she doesn't know what to say it's because what she really wants to say and really means is that "I love him".

 

That should be an answer that anyone with a heart could understand, even while encourage all women in a situation like that to get away, as they should. But yet, most women will stay silent rather than speak that answer out loud because they believe they will be looked down upon as stupid, and they would be.

 

We can dissect ALL the other aspects of the psychology all we want...histories of abuse in childhood, past relationships, ...whatever. But the equation will never make sense, because it will never be complete. And therefore there is very little we can do about it until then.

[carhill]

Great post.

 

To boil it down and keep it in the first person, the first step on the road to healing that hurt I alluded to prior (the dismissing part) was to reflect upon my own unhealthiness in whom I was attracting and attracted to and the why's and wherefore's of what kept me in a relationship/marriage and/or 'in love'. Now I recognize, whenever I meet a new woman, whether as a friend or else, and I start to listen (and, god help me, they talk and talk to me) I see the signs right away; signs that they haven't really looked inward and examined themselves. Signs for me to stay away. Do not enter. The clearest signs are defense of unhealthy relationships (He's an azzhole but I love him) and biotching about everyone else but taking no personal responsibility for her circumstance.

 

there may later come a day when you are more than grateful for the ability of women to love so unconditionally.

 

LOL, seriously, I am more than grateful for those such women who exist in my world; in fact, one of them called me tonight. She's off on an adventure that I helped her plan and wanted to let me know she made it OK and was so thankful for my generosity and love. I laughed when I heard she got the order right. She called her husband, my best friend, first, when she got in. Whew!

 

So, no worries. I'm happy to hitch a ride on this amazing bus called life. Everything in its due time. I think I can safely say I've developed a bit of jerkiness myself. Very annoying

[V.Vixen]

Ah one of my favorite questions to answer! This is VERY easy to explain but hard for women to put into perspective.

 

You meet a guy. He says all the right things, seems cool and confident but a tad selfish at the same time. He usually gets you into the sack right off the bat. He doesn't call often but when he does he expects you to be at his beck and call

 

Soon into the relationship you realize it's all about him and what he wants. Little to no thought is given to your wants/needs. The relationship is very one-sided. You're doing all the giving, he's doing all the taking.

 

You threaten to leave, he vows to change. And he does, for a brief period. Once things settle down, he's back to his old ways. You threaten to leave again, he changes again briefly. And the cycle repeats itself until you find yourself deeply in love with a man who has the total opposite personality and character that you wanted in a man. And since you've showed that you can set a boundary but don't follow through, he knows you are never going to leave. That all your threats are weak.

 

Why does this happen? He's a JERK, right? Yes, he is. But the reason why women fall for them so often is that they SEEM confident and secure but nothing could be further from the truth. JERKS and DOOR MATS have the same issues. Both are deeply insecure but display it in different ways.

 

DOOR MATS try really hard to win people over by being overly nice.

JERKS have the "I don't give a f**k about you" attitude to protect themselves.

 

As I said, BOTH are deeply insecure. Both have major faults and neither makes a good life partner. Jerks are much harder to discern because at the beginning of the relationship they are usually on their best behavior. They tell little white lies, they're always on the prowl for someone better however they will keep you around (as long as they are getting laid) in the meantime.

 

It's the ILLUSION of confidence through selfishness that draws women to JERKS. "Wow, this guy isn't chasing me, he isn't kissing my a$$, he must be someone of real value!"

 

WRONG.

 

The ideal, confident man is a BALANCED man. I started a thread about what makes a balanced man (and clarified door mats and jerks) some time ago -- maybe a couple years.

 

The book "No More Mr Nice Guy" (Glover) explains what a confident, balanced man should look like. It explains why dating someone too far to one side of the spectrum (nice/jerk) is bad for you.

 

Ignoring red flags is one of the biggest problems with dating jerks. You see those red flags, especially in the beginning, you know they are there but that animalistic passion keeps you around. Initially the sex seems over the top but once the euphoria settles down, you realize it isn't all that great.

 

And one day, years later, you sit there and wonder how you ended up with a guy like this? You got played (fooled). Not your fault. Happens all the time.

 

The best thing you can do is respect yourself and walk away (and don't fall for the manipulation that follows -- because if he doesn't have someone else in the wings, he's going to use every TRICK in the book to get you to stay).

 

The only way to avoid dating a jerk is to HEED THE RED FLAGS. They are there. Pay attention to them and listen to your head and not your heart.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Very very well said.

 

In my online profile I explain how important finding a well balanced man is to me. Balance is truly the key, as either end of the spectrum wears very quickly.

[V.Vixen]

Just curious, I keep seeing the phrase "party girl" mentioned here.

 

What is your definition of a "party girl"? I ask only because I enjoy going out with friends and having a good time. I have other things that matter to me too, but I have been known to "party". Is that considered a negative thing? this is a little off track, but it sparked my curiosity.

[CaliGuy]

Very very well said.

 

In my online profile I explain how important finding a well balanced man is to me. Balance is truly the key, as either end of the spectrum wears very quickly.

 

You're welcome.

 

Women fall for jerks.

Men ignore faults in hot chicks.

 

Same thing, different sexes....same results.

 

The problem is....we need to think with something other than our sex organs if we're to find ideal mates...

[Hkizzle]

Just curious, I keep seeing the phrase "party girl" mentioned here.

 

What is your definition of a "party girl"? I ask only because I enjoy going out with friends and having a good time. I have other things that matter to me too, but I have been known to "party". Is that considered a negative thing? this is a little off track, but it sparked my curiosity.

 

Going partying and having a good time once in a while is one thing. Party girls are slightly different.

 

They frequent bars and clubs a lot. They have a pretty superficial outlook on things, and fool around with guys. Thing is when they fall for the guys and the guys are just in it for the sex and not into them, they get all upset about it.

 

Makes me wonder what do they expect, especially since clubs are the training grounds for players.

 

It's hard to qualify what a party girl is though because everyone has their own definition. I'm friends with a lot of party girls. They're all pretty but as Caliguy says, deep down they have low self esteem, and superficial, I would only have sex with them and won't want a proper relationship with them.

[EarthGirl]

Great post.

 

To boil it down and keep it in the first person, the first step on the road to healing that hurt I alluded to prior (the dismissing part) was to reflect upon my own unhealthiness in whom I was attracting and attracted to and the why's and wherefore's of what kept me in a relationship/marriage and/or 'in love'. Now I recognize, whenever I meet a new woman, whether as a friend or else, and I start to listen (and, god help me, they talk and talk to me) I see the signs right away; signs that they haven't really looked inward and examined themselves. Signs for me to stay away. Do not enter. The clearest signs are defense of unhealthy relationships (He's an azzhole but I love him) and biotching about everyone else but taking no personal responsibility for her circumstance.

 

 

 

LOL, seriously, I am more than grateful for those such women who exist in my world; in fact, one of them called me tonight. She's off on an adventure that I helped her plan and wanted to let me know she made it OK and was so thankful for my generosity and love. I laughed when I heard she got the order right. She called her husband, my best friend, first, when she got in. Whew!

 

So, no worries. I'm happy to hitch a ride on this amazing bus called life. Everything in its due time. I think I can safely say I've developed a bit of jerkiness myself. Very annoying

 

Carhill, I did not defend the unhealthy relationship. I defended the love. there's a big difference. I know the relationship is unhealthy and twisted, but the love is just as perfect and alive and healthy as all love is.

 

You're not getting it.

 

And again, you can blame the victim for staying and putting up with it, but in the end they are still a victim, NOT a criminal, and they have their reasons it's difficult to get out and they did not and do not choose to be treated badly just for the heck of it.

 

It's very different I think when kids are involved. In those cases, (although when abuse is physical as well as emotional, I've heard it can be very very dangerous to try to leave, so it must be planned very carefully and very quietly), wether physical abuse or emotional, it is imperative that the woman leaves and gets the children out. Of course I cannot understand someone else's situation and have not been in their shoes. I know very well that sometimes in life, you just do not have a lot of options and it's a lot harder than it may seem to people on the outside. But even I get pretty pissed off when I hear of women staying for years and letting their children witness the abuse and even waiting so long that the abuse is turned on the children. Believe me my family is not the healthiest, at least my parents aren't. I am amazed really that my bro and sis and me ended up so normal and kind and loving, me being the one with the most problems, but still all in all a fairly sane person.

 

But when there are no kids involved, it's really a woman's own decision who she chooses to love, so why don't you just back off and stop pretending like it's any of your business. If you are so concerned about it then you should be encouraging, not further demeaning women by telling them they are not allowed to love who they love or that their love is not allowed to be called real love just because someone who doesn't even know them says so.

 

By the way I never ever said that women should not get away from men that treat them like ****. By all means get away because you know most likely he will never change. I know the statistics...(even though there really ARE no statistics on "bad boys"..it's all rumor and urban legend as far as I know, but I've been through enough myself to know that the odds are rough). And if there is any chance of a miracle, believe me he won't change if you stay and let yourself keep being his convenient punching bag and don't give him a chance to see how much he misses you and how much he hurt you.\

 

So by all means leave...go far far away and don't even look back. ALL I'm saying is that no one has any right to tell me or any other woman what real love is or what it is not. Actually some women need to believe that it was not real love to heal, but many women NEED to believe that it WAS real love, because just maybe it was and it's hard enough to leave much less deal with memories that everybody is telling you aren't really true, or at least never really meant anything. Sometimes it's healthier to love from afar. And I am all for women doing what's right for them and not blaming others for their circumstances ; ) (at least those circumstances which are in their control).

 

I just think that it would be helpful to women, AND men and everybody involved in this issue to talk about these things openly.

[Yamaha]

I don't thinkanybody is saying if you feel love with a bad boy it isn't real or true. I know it's hard to leave someone when you feel love and who is to say if someone loves a person that treats them bad but if you really love yourself and know he isn't treating you the way you deserve then you need to have the power to walk away. That is what lots of women who get into unhealthy relationships lack. Love is not the only reason to say with somone, you need respect, trust, honor, or whatever else makes up a happy, healthy union, not just that you love them.

[Thaddeus]

You're not getting it.

No, actually Carhill has it spot-on. You're the one not getting it.

If you are so concerned about it then you should be encouraging, not further demeaning women by telling them they are not allowed to love who they love or that their love is not allowed to be called real love just because someone who doesn't even know them says so.

No, you're the one doing the demeaning. By subscribing to this nonsensical fantasy that, "Oh, it's LURVVE!!!" and "With my love I can change him!!" and "He's just a softie in his heart!!!" and all the rest, you're demeaning women and a woman's ability to make a rational, cogent decision based on good old-fashioned common sense. All your talk of the woman being the victim doesn't help either.

 

There's a prison close by where I live and guys get released from there pretty much every day. Want me to introduce you to some of them? Those are the true bad boys. The rest are just posers.

 

Hey, if you want to do the whole bad-boy routine, by all means go right ahead. Someone will be by in due time to pick up the pieces.

[CaliGuy]

but the love is just as perfect and alive and healthy as all love is.

 

You're not getting it.

 

I don't think YOU get it.

 

For love to be alive, perfect and healthy, BOTH people in the relationship have to have be capable of loving in a HEALTHY way.

 

Players, Bad Boys, Jerks and Door Mats are INCAPABLE of loving in a HEALTHY way therefore the love you are referring to is not healthy, alive or perfect in any way, shape or form.

 

It's women who think like you do (My love conquers all) who find themselves wondering 15-20 years later "WTF happened?!...."

 

Love does not conquer all.

Love does not fix all.

Love does not change all.

 

And love, no matter how much you feel it, is not perfect if both people involved do not have a healthy perspective.

 

In fact, if you do have a healthy understanding of love, you walk away from people who are bad for you....because you love and respect yourself.

[sally4sara]

Going partying and having a good time once in a while is one thing. Party girls are slightly different.

 

They frequent bars and clubs a lot. They have a pretty superficial outlook on things, and fool around with guys. Thing is when they fall for the guys and the guys are just in it for the sex and not into them, they get all upset about it.

 

Makes me wonder what do they expect, especially since clubs are the training grounds for players.

 

It's hard to qualify what a party girl is though because everyone has their own definition. I'm friends with a lot of party girls. They're all pretty but as Caliguy says, deep down they have low self esteem, and superficial, I would only have sex with them and won't want a proper relationship with them.

 

And this is where I don't understand why you would talk about the jerks women fall for and dissect these women with a "tsk tsk" tone. All while thinking you couldn't be included in the jerk category. Your statement above proves you will judge someone as unworthy of your time or respect but still be intimate with them! Who is the fool when an accidental pregnancy results or the unworthy chick psychos out on you at a party one night while you're trying to talk to some other worthier girl?

I understand where you're coming from - I am no saint, but I sure as hell don't think of jerky people as the "others" I look down on nor do I think anyone I meet who is, at that moment, dating a person I wouldn't, a low self esteem having fool. It isn't always so cut and dry. We're all jerks baby! Long enough time line and you will act selfish and cause someone pain.

[Hkizzle]

And this is where I don't understand why you would talk about the jerks women fall for and dissect these women with a "tsk tsk" tone. All while thinking you couldn't be included in the jerk category. Your statement above proves you will judge someone as unworthy of your time or respect but still be intimate with them! Who is the fool when an accidental pregnancy results or the unworthy chick psychos out on you at a party one night while you're trying to talk to some other worthier girl?

I understand where you're coming from - I am no saint, but I sure as hell don't think of jerky people as the "others" I look down on nor do I think anyone I meet who is, at that moment, dating a person I wouldn't, a low self esteem having fool. It isn't always so cut and dry. We're all jerks baby! Long enough time line and you will act selfish and cause someone pain.

 

haha, I love how you tried to pre-empt my response.

 

1) If you look way near the front of this thread, I said myself I consider myself a jerk. The difference between me and most players, etc is:

 

2) I don't lead people on. If I'm in a proper relationship I'm in a proper relationship. If I'm looking for sex I let the girl know where I stand. In fact about 80% of the girls I date I walk away from even though I know I can have sex if I want, because I can tell they like me for real and don't want to lead them on.

 

3) I am not looking for a relationship at this stage in my life. If I am not ready and I wasn't in my last serious relationship, then I am not ready. I don't want to date like so many people who confuse the difference between pure sex and a relationship and end up in these stupid messy middle grounds, that's when people get hurt.

 

4) I can't cum when drunk and wearing a condom. You probably didn't want to know that but that removes the risk of pregnancy. But I play safe!

 

5) Yes I do look down on the girls, but I don't put myself on the pedestal, hence point 1). I agree with Caliguy fully, I'm just as dysfunctional and need to get my act together.

 

But you ever seen one of those movies where the main protagonist kills all the bad guys? He's probably just as bad, and he doesn't have to like the other killers in his profession.

 

The way I see it a lot of these girls are shallow and use and dump men. A lot of them in Asia are gold diggers who don't understand real love and wouldn't look at another man twice if he couldn't provide the lifestyle they want. They are playing the game and using other men, why should I respect them?

 

Hope that's complex enough for you, haha.

[sally4sara]

haha, I love how you tried to pre-empt my response.

 

1) If you look way near the front of this thread, I said myself I consider myself a jerk. The difference between me and most players, etc is:

 

2) I don't lead people on. If I'm in a proper relationship I'm in a proper relationship. If I'm looking for sex I let the girl know where I stand. In fact about 80% of the girls I date I walk away from even though I know I can have sex if I want, because I can tell they like me for real and don't want to lead them on.

 

3) I am not looking for a relationship at this stage in my life. If I am not ready and I wasn't in my last serious relationship, then I am not ready. I don't want to date like so many people who confuse the difference between pure sex and a relationship and end up in these stupid messy middle grounds, that's when people get hurt.

 

4) I can't cum when drunk and wearing a condom. You probably didn't want to know that but that removes the risk of pregnancy. But I play safe!

 

5) Yes I do look down on the girls, but I don't put myself on the pedestal, hence point 1). I agree with Caliguy fully, I'm just as dysfunctional and need to get my act together.

 

But you ever seen one of those movies where the main protagonist kills all the bad guys? He's probably just as bad, and he doesn't have to like the other killers in his profession.

 

The way I see it a lot of these girls are shallow and use and dump men. A lot of them in Asia are gold diggers who don't understand real love and wouldn't look at another man twice if he couldn't provide the lifestyle they want. They are playing the game and using other men, why should I respect them?

 

Hope that's complex enough for you, haha.

 

I still feel the tendency for parents to push seeking sex as a test of masculinity and co-dependency the test for femininity to be the biggest and longest standing cause of human folly. The whole "I don't respect them but I'll eff them" mindset is the biggest cause of interpersonal drama I see between men and women. I'm guilty of it too and it has always caused stupidity, for me and the people I see perpetuate it.