Affair sex

[tami-chan]

TC, read my post again. Clearly you have either misunderstood the words or have ascribed a different meaning and intention. Stop injecting venom where none exists and stop trying to portray others as disingenuous. It really ticks me off.

 

To summarize for you... SHE DESERVES THE WHOLE DEAL. She is worth it in my opinion.

 

How can you think "she deserves the whole deal" when you said that what she has "honestly" comes across as just "getting laid" and something to do for the time being...It would make sense to claim you want/wish her the "whole deal" IF you truly believe she loves her MM, but you don't. I stand by my original post.

[jennie-jennie]

How can you think "she deserves the whole deal" when you said that what she has "honestly" comes across as just "getting laid" and something to do for the time being...It would make sense to claim you want/wish her the "whole deal" IF you truly believe she loves her MM, but you don't. I stand by my original post.

 

I read it like Tami does. That was one h@ll of a 180, Gamine.

[foreal]

I'm sure the day will come when I have anger towards my xOW...I hear it is part of the process of moving on.

 

I'm glad that you get something from my posts...I really just try to be as honest as I can...I thik it is the only way...and besides, you people don't know me...so no harm, right.

 

I'm sure your MM had many qualities that make him a fine man...just not some biggies...like availibility. I know it hurts. As I read what OWs write it tears me up a little inside each time...because I put my xOW through this same hell...she is such a beautiful and strong woman, and I know her integrity took such a hit by playing second fiddle to my marriage...for that I will never forgive myself fully. So in a way...being called a cake eater helps me feel like I am getting punished by xOWs...maybe in some crazy round about way it's the universes way of maintaining balance.

 

I hope you one day feel less angry and more balanced. You deserve serenity..we all do.

 

Playing second fiddle most likely damaged her self esteem, not integrity.

[Devil Inside]

Playing second fiddle most likely damaged her self esteem, not integrity.

 

True. It did both. I say integrity because she told me in the aftermath that she was so upset with herself by allowing herself to be in the position of the OW for so long. That she allowed herself to be second choice to any man was a blow to her integrity.

[MistyK]

I'm sure the day will come when I have anger towards my xOW...I hear it is part of the process of moving on.

 

DI, I'm curious...what do you suppose you would be angry at her for?

[foreal]

True. It did both. I say integrity because she told me in the aftermath that she was so upset with herself by allowing herself to be in the position of the OW for so long. That she allowed herself to be second choice to any man was a blow to her integrity.

 

I am not sure if the length of time being an OW is what damaged her integrity as much as the second she chose to become involved with you did- I guess what i am saying is that YOU are not responsible for her integrity anymore than she is for yours... I am suggesting you at least relieve yourself of that responsibility (you said you may not forgive yourself for this)...but it is not something YOU did to her anymore than SHE did to you...she did it to herself...not saying it makes it any easier..again, just trying to offer you an alternative to beating yourself up over what you did, and did not, do to her. Your last sentence says it best:

"That she allowed herself to be second choice to any man was a blow to her integrity"...SHE, not YOU, is responsible for her integrity. Just as SHE is not responsible for yours...

[Devil Inside]

DI, I'm curious...what do you suppose you would be angry at her for?

 

Right now I have no idea. I'm sure there may be a cognitive distortion around the fact that she ended it too early...and that I would have changed my mind and left my marriage in time.

 

I know she did the right thing. For her, me, and our families...but the grief process has a way of distorting reality.

 

Hopefully, for me, it will never happen like that.

[Devil Inside]

I am not sure if the length of time being an OW is what damaged her integrity as much as the second she chose to become involved with you did- I guess what i am saying is that YOU are not responsible for her integrity anymore than she is for yours... I am suggesting you at least relieve yourself of that responsibility (you said you may not forgive yourself for this)...but it is not something YOU did to her anymore than SHE did to you...she did it to herself...not saying it makes it any easier..again, just trying to offer you an alternative to beating yourself up over what you did, and did not, do to her. Your last sentence says it best:

"That she allowed herself to be second choice to any man was a blow to her integrity"...SHE, not YOU, is responsible for her integrity. Just as SHE is not responsible for yours...

 

Great point. She actually told me the same thing. I asked if she hated me...she said that she hated that she allowed herself to have an A...but not me.

 

I think beating myself up is also a way to not take responsibility for what I have done to my wife. So I do need to move on. Thanks for the perspective.

[MistyK]

Right now I have no idea. I'm sure there may be a cognitive distortion around the fact that she ended it too early...and that I would have changed my mind and left my marriage in time.

 

I know she did the right thing. For her, me, and our families...but the grief process has a way of distorting reality.

 

Hopefully, for me, it will never happen like that.

 

It sounded like you were fairly certain that you would not have left your M, but sometimes the absence of the OW making the M bearable for the MM changes the dynamic in the M. It seems to me that on the extremely rare occasion that R's that start as A's work out, it is only after the OW exits stage left for a long period of time. I wonder if you will be one of those guys that seeks her out in a year or two.

[Devil Inside]

It sounded like you were fairly certain that you would not have left your M, but sometimes the absence of the OW making the M bearable for the MM changes the dynamic in the M. It seems to me that on the extremely rare occasion that R's that start as A's work out, it is only after the OW exits stage left for a long period of time. I wonder if you will be one of those guys that seeks her out in a year or two.

 

Time will tell. For now my focus is on my M and making that work. More importantly than that my focus is on myself...why I had the A, and what it means about me and my ability to be in the M I'm in, or any R. An honest self reflection is not easy...but just starting it has been very enlightening and empowering thus far.

[jennie-jennie]

True. It did both. I say integrity because she told me in the aftermath that she was so upset with herself by allowing herself to be in the position of the OW for so long. That she allowed herself to be second choice to any man was a blow to her integrity.

 

I am wondering about this. I do not feel that I am second choice to my MM. I am his first choice when it comes to emotional bond and sexuality, to romance and discussions. It is just that he is married. That does not make me his second choice.

 

Truthfully, DI, was xOW really your second choice? Or was it just that you were not prepared to, at least not yet, give up the lifestyle you knew?

[MistyK]

Sex is a big deal for me I am learning. I told my xOW "before you I lived in black and white, and now my world is in color." It wasn't only the sex...it was the connection...the relationship. You know when you look someone in the eyes and you "know" them. Like finally finding the one person I've been with in all my past lives or something. However, she is not who I made a committment to. She is not the mother of my children. She is not an option.

 

Wow. This the exact phrase I used with xMM when I was engaged in my EA with him (I was M when it started and left my H and am since D). When things were good with xMM they were great, they were like what you describe. I think that's why it was so hard for me to give it up (and still is). He of course was also not who I made a commitment to or had kids with, but he opened my eyes to the kind of love I could have with someone else other than my H, and that my H could have with someone else. (Our M wasn't great and even prior to getting M, our 7 year pre-M relationship wasn't that great.) It's hard to shut your eyes again once you see something like that. Was it all an illusion? If I believe that, than I should have stayed miserable in my M (because he wasn't going to change). I can't believe that.

[Devil Inside]

I am wondering about this. I do not feel that I am second choice to my MM. I am his first choice when it comes to emotional bond and sexuality, to romance and discussions. It is just that he is married. That does not make me his second choice.

 

Truthfully, DI, was xOW really your second choice? Or was it just that you were not prepared to, at least not yet, give up the lifestyle you knew?

 

I am going to try to answer from what she has told me. She said that she wanted to be my wife. She wanted to be the one who held me in bed every night. The one to make breakfast with. The one to raise kids with. She wanted to build a life with me.

 

Was she the first one I though of when I had good news or bad...yes. Was she the one that came to my mind in any situation...yes. Did this mean she was first...no, I agreed with her...if she were first I would have made the sacrifices necessary to build a life with her.

 

So, if I had met her before I was married and I was choosing between her and my wife would I have chosen her...of course. However, that is not how it went down. I am married. I do have children. I did have doubt about whether the aftermath of my D and custody battles would destroy our R. So I didn't leave.

 

Look, for some women and men being first doesn't need to come along with a ring or cohabitation or exclusivity. However for my xOW, and for me it does. We are all different. I think one thing that is difficult for APs is not being able to share your love with the world. My xOW and I wanted our kids to know the other. To become family. To many...that is so necessary. I hope that what your MM gives you is enough.

 

You know I'm not judging...I've thought from day one that you are an intelligent and independent woman choosing to be in the R you are in...but I hope it's enough...because you deserve to be first.

[Devil Inside]

Wow. This the exact phrase I used with xMM when I was engaged in my EA with him (I was M when it started and left my H and am since D). When things were good with xMM they were great, they were like what you describe. I think that's why it was so hard for me to give it up (and still is). He of course was also not who I made a commitment to or had kids with, but he opened my eyes to the kind of love I could have with someone else other than my H, and that my H could have with someone else. (Our M wasn't great and even prior to getting M, our 7 year pre-M relationship wasn't that great.) It's hard to shut your eyes again once you see something like that. Was it all an illusion? If I believe that, than I should have stayed miserable in my M (because he wasn't going to change). I can't believe that.

 

 

This is something I struggle with. Is love like that really attainable and sustainable...or is it the result of the fantasy situation created by the A.

 

Unlike you my W is willing to change. We do communicate well and this has brought us closer. One thing I am trying not to do, however, is close my eyes to how I feel. There may come a time when I realize it is not fair to either of us to stay in this M. I'm not at a point where I can decide that...only time will tell.

 

As for the phrase...maybe we should start a line of Hallmark Cards for As...j/k...man I'll probably get killed for that one....just a little comic relief...this is a heavy topic.

[jennie-jennie]

I am going to try to answer from what she has told me. She said that she wanted to be my wife. She wanted to be the one who held me in bed every night. The one to make breakfast with. The one to raise kids with. She wanted to build a life with me.

 

Was she the first one I though of when I had good news or bad...yes. Was she the one that came to my mind in any situation...yes. Did this mean she was first...no, I agreed with her...if she were first I would have made the sacrifices necessary to build a life with her.

 

So, if I had met her before I was married and I was choosing between her and my wife would I have chosen her...of course. However, that is not how it went down. I am married. I do have children. I did have doubt about whether the aftermath of my D and custody battles would destroy our R. So I didn't leave.

 

Look, for some women and men being first doesn't need to come along with a ring or cohabitation or exclusivity. However for my xOW, and for me it does. We are all different. I think one thing that is difficult for APs is not being able to share your love with the world. My xOW and I wanted our kids to know the other. To become family. To many...that is so necessary. I hope that what your MM gives you is enough.

 

You know I'm not judging...I've thought from day one that you are an intelligent and independent woman choosing to be in the R you are in...but I hope it's enough...because you deserve to be first.

 

I want more, there is no denying that.

[Devil Inside]

I want more, there is no denying that.

 

Ohh JJ. You know I have a little bond with you. It's probably because our avatars are dating or something...but either way....we have a little connection. So listen to this...and know it comes as a friend.

 

Make sure that you will be true to yourself. If it comes to the point where you want more and he won't give more, then don't settle. Never settle. You've described yourself, and I know you don't have to settle. Not saying to leave the guy...just be true to yourself.

[NoIDidn't]

So, if I had met her before I was married and I was choosing between her and my wife would I have chosen her...of course. However, that is not how it went down. I am married. I do have children. I did have doubt about whether the aftermath of my D and custody battles would destroy our R. So I didn't leave.

 

DI

 

I really appreciate your honesty here. It is refreshing. Since you are new, I am sure you don't know much of my posting history, so I wanted to share my perspective with you along with some of my history.

 

I was the BS and my H was having an EA with a co-worker. I read the emails he sent to her and he told me of their conversations as we got further into our recovery. And everything you have said here, even the part about living in color (even though he only had an EA) - he said.

 

I really feel that you are still under the influence of the affair. The fantasy of it all. I don't think you would have chosen her over your W if you met her first. Your current experiences created the circumstances under which you even sought her. You couldn't have known what your marriage or yourself would be like at the moment of reaching her. And under normal circumstances, things may not have progressed as quickly for either you or her.

 

You really are here beating yourself up in a way that makes you more sympathetic to the hurt the OW may have experienced. I am not saying that you should be beating yourself up because of your W, but its like you are avoiding even thinking about the harm caused to her and your relationship with her.

 

This is not going to be a popular opinion since we are on the OW/OM Forum, but I will say it anyway. Posting here as a MM who seems to have more respect for his xOW than his W isn't helping your marriage.

 

It may well be, that at this moment, you have no respect for your W or marriage - and that you should be honest with yourself about that. But as it stands now, it seems that you aren't really reconciling your M so much as just occupying space in it.

[MistyK]

This is something I struggle with. Is love like that really attainable and sustainable...or is it the result of the fantasy situation created by the A.

 

Unlike you my W is willing to change. We do communicate well and this has brought us closer. One thing I am trying not to do, however, is close my eyes to how I feel. There may come a time when I realize it is not fair to either of us to stay in this M. I'm not at a point where I can decide that...only time will tell.

 

I don't know either, but I know that I wanted to find out. Life is too short, and I know it would have bothered me the rest of my life to have ignored that hunger in me.

 

It took me years to realize that things within my M were non-negotiable. And when it came right down to it, I realized that even if my H changed his ways, he still wouldn't have "done it" for me like xMM did. There were core incompatibility issues that he couldn't change no matter how hard he could have tried. (Intellectual disconnect, etc.) So, it didn't seem right to ask him to change anything for me when it still would make it only tolerable and not the kind of happiness I believe is out there.

 

I'm not making any recommendations here, just talking out loud.

[Devil Inside]

DI

 

You really are here beating yourself up in a way that makes you more sympathetic to the hurt the OW may have experienced. I am not saying that you should be beating yourself up because of your W, but its like you are avoiding even thinking about the harm caused to her and your relationship with her.

 

This is not going to be a popular opinion since we are on the OW/OM Forum, but I will say it anyway. Posting here as a MM who seems to have more respect for his xOW than his W isn't helping your marriage.

 

It may well be, that at this moment, you have no respect for your W or marriage - and that you should be honest with yourself about that. But as it stands now, it seems that you aren't really reconciling your M so much as just occupying space in it.

 

Thanks for the words...and for delivering them in a kind manner.

 

I know that my words do not reflect the respect I should have for my M and W.

 

Reading things like this remind of that...and where my focus should be.

[NoIDidn't]

Thanks for the words...and for delivering them in a kind manner.

 

I know that my words do not reflect the respect I should have for my M and W.

 

Reading things like this remind of that...and where my focus should be.

 

I let some posters get to me, but I really am a concerned poster trying to help if I can.

 

My H went through a similar period. It was the reason that NC was broken so often (for about a two month period). I see a lot of him in your posts. So I understand some of the struggle that you are going through with your focus. My marriage was in limbo during this period. I was prepared to walk if it stayed that way for more than six to twelve months. Thankfully, it only lasted for two to three months.

 

You are in a tough spot. I think your posting here helps OW see that the MM does still think about them and the A, but I don't think its very healthy for you or them to dwell in this place if the A really is over.

[TogetherForever]

Just curious.

 

MM/MW was/is sex better with your OW/OM or your S?

 

OW/OM was/is sex with MM/MW better than sex with other partners or previous/current S?

 

Is it the A that makes the sex better or not?

 

 

 

Our sex is & has always been incredible.

[MistyK]

I

My H went through a similar period. It was the reason that NC was broken so often (for about a two month period). I see a lot of him in your posts. So I understand some of the struggle that you are going through with your focus. My marriage was in limbo during this period. I was prepared to walk if it stayed that way for more than six to twelve months. Thankfully, it only lasted for two to three months.

 

NID, How did you deal with that? As an OW, I felt better with the idea that xMM wasn't "in love" with his W like he was with me. I liked to think of it as different, less than what we had. (who knows what the truth is?)It would kill me to have a man I loved in love with someone else and have to live with that knowledge for months. You must really love him.

[Devil Inside]

I let some posters get to me, but I really am a concerned poster trying to help if I can.

 

My H went through a similar period. It was the reason that NC was broken so often (for about a two month period). I see a lot of him in your posts. So I understand some of the struggle that you are going through with your focus. My marriage was in limbo during this period. I was prepared to walk if it stayed that way for more than six to twelve months. Thankfully, it only lasted for two to three months.

 

You are in a tough spot. I think your posting here helps OW see that the MM does still think about them and the A, but I don't think its very healthy for you or them to dwell in this place if the A really is over.

 

What are some of the things that your husband did to help him move along in the process?

 

I also agree with Misty...you must really love him...he's lucky.

[NoIDidn't]

NID, How did you deal with that? As an OW, I felt better with the idea that xMM wasn't "in love" with his W like he was with me. I liked to think of it as different, less than what we had. (who knows what the truth is?)It would kill me to have a man I loved in love with someone else and have to live with that knowledge for months. You must really love him.

 

I DO really love him. It didn't kill me to think that he was in love with someone else. He had loved others before me and would likely love others after me. So him loving her was never my issue.

 

His breaking NC wasn't completely avoidable either. They worked for the same company. They were bound to see each other occasionally. That's how the whole thing started to begin with. She was Administrative Staff that he had to deal with to get certain things done.

 

I can say that he didn't initiate any contact by calling her or emailing her. So it wasn't that kind of *breaking* NC. I wanted no unnecessary conversations. They had unnecessary conversations. That broke *my* version of NC for two people that still worked together.

 

I dealt with it because he still worked with her and we were both trying to decide what to do concerning our marriage. Initially, I had to ask him if they broke NC because he didn't volunteer that information. Once he realized that I wasn't interested in arguing, only in seeing if I could trust him again, did he start telling me on his own.

 

It also helped that all of her initiating contact with him was to tell him how horrible I was for trying to protect my marriage by telling her boyfriend what she was up to, or how horrible he was for dreaming out loud with her. He spent his time apologizing to her for everything that happened and it seemed like he got tired of doing that. He was doing it at home every time he saw the hurt in my eyes. I guess he got tired of doing it whenever he went by her building too.

 

Believe me, it wasn't easy to deal with.

[NoIDidn't]

What are some of the things that your husband did to help him move along in the process?

 

Time away from me and her (between d-days! yes, we had two).

IC

And complete honesty with himself and me

Complete NC eventually

 

It was a very painful time. I cried alot. The EA wasn't nearly as painful as hearing that even though the EA was over, he still couldn't commit to the marriage yet. But out of this honesty, we learned to communicate better. HE learned to communicate period. He was a conflict avoider.

 

 

I also agree with Misty...you must really love him...he's lucky.

 

We are both lucky. We managed to remember the love and admiration that we married with, and to get it back and then some. But I don't know if I could go through it again and stay, unless I just stay for my kids and other practical reasons.