moimeme Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 a morally deficient poster has morally deficient views This is the essence of 'the sin equals the sinner'. It is not a view I hold. I do believe this is worth a thread. Link to post Share on other sites
jenny Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 actually, i'm out too. some of us have been discussing the moral authoritarianism problem here, and i think i hit my breaking point with actual name-calling. <btw, i only use "jenny (giggles)" when i'm entrapping Bond> <final giggle.> it's possible i just don't understand the mandate, i think, and am unwilling to try anymore. so, cheers, sweet shackers! thank you all very very *VERY* much for the help you have given me and viewpoints you have helped me to understand. i expect it would be more graceful to slink out quietly, but i really do feel the need to express my immense gratitude for what you guys have made here. this is an amazing and loving idea, truly. thank you. paul, is there a way you can officially close my account to help with the space problem? i'll clean it out today, but i imagine every little byte helps. , , and further , j Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 moral authoritarianism [color=red]?[/color] In another thread, LS was accused of being overly morally liberal. I have been so accused myself when I have spoken with empathy about how it is that people find themselves in affairs. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 This 'taking it personally' business gets to me bigtime. I suppose the only solution is to just never have a disagreeing opinion since people insist on taking offense where no offense was intended. What can one say to someone after one says "I was not talking to you personally"? They don't believe you - essentially call you a liar. What defense is there for that? Any ideas, Lexi? Link to post Share on other sites
cindy0039 Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 Jenny and Bark - If you read this I just want you to know that you will be sorely missed. I got a lot from your posts and enjoyed reading what you had to say. I think it is a damn shame that it has come to this! Why do people find it necessary to argue with the opinions others give in response to posts? Why do some people have to come across as so judgmental? Isn't there room for all of us on this forum, even those who do things you may find distasteful or wrong? Why does there have to be such a competitive nature amongst some posters? There's no right and wrong when it comes to opinions. They're just opinions. We all have them. But I will address one point that Jenny and Bark made. I agree with this statement: "I believe that morally dissonant voices are suppressed in many threads in the name of a moral authoritarianism that frequently expresses itself, in Jenny's memorable words, as "textual bullying." Also, "People won't seek counsel if all they hear is how worthless or selfish or defective they are..." Personally, I will admit now that there have been times when I have had a problem of my own that I didn't feel comfortable discussing on this forum for fear of being judged. And I'm not too proud to admit that I might also have been guilty of being too harsh and judgmental on some ocassions. I will try my best not to do it anymore. I think we want opinions here from those who have them to give, those who may have had personal experience with the issue at hand. Sometimes what we have is people who respond to nearly every post, whether they have any opinion to offer or not. Link to post Share on other sites
Author rainbow Posted November 9, 2003 Author Share Posted November 9, 2003 Well, I did manage to accomplish quite diverse and interesting dicussions on this thread. I admitt that I was curious to see what the "public" views were on my behavior. I am struggling with this, I appreciate everyone's views. Even the ones I did not want to hear or were hard for me to read. I needed to open my mind to other ways of thinking and I am glad I posted the original thread. I am faced with many agonizing thoughts each and every day about where I am in my life right now. I have a lot of sadness and anger within me (at this stage) I have been through many stages in the 3 mos I have left my marriage, but I never imagined it would be this exhausting. I have a new view regardding relationships that I am not proud of. I have noticed myself become drastically cynical on views of marriage, relationships and love. Maybe b/c as my friend tells me I had a dream of the way my life was supposed to be and I did not manage to accomplish that task I wanted to complete so badly. I hate feeling cynical and it scares me that I have become that without seeing it. I feel like I woke up that way one day and I want to get back to believing in what everyone one is living around me. Guilt is starting to consume me. What kind of person could I be in order to committ adultery. It's definately not something I feel proud of. But I put myself here and must get myself out. My main goal is to heal from all of this and figure out what it all means. I do not wish to find anyone's support of what I do just their thoughts. The one judgment I will make about the original poster is that she should not be interfering in another person's marriage - period. Even though this one statement from one person seems like pretty obvious advice to me, notice how the poster would like you to believe that it is opinion when actually it IS judgement whether they see it or not. And that kind of "advice" can be found anywhere. But still respected and it did hit home. I know I am a good person not in a good place b/c I can feel the pit at the bottom of my stomach.... Thanks to all who contributed. Best of luck to you Bark. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 I have a new view regardding relationships that I am not proud of. I have noticed myself become drastically cynical on views of marriage, relationships and love. Maybe b/c as my friend tells me I had a dream of the way my life was supposed to be and I did not manage to accomplish that task I wanted to complete so badly. I hate feeling cynical and it scares me that I have become that without seeing it. I feel like I woke up that way one day and I want to get back to believing in what everyone one is living around me. It is a huge struggle to fight the urge to fall into cynicism and bitterness. That you are aware that these feelings may be overtaking you is great; you are armed to keep them at bay. I'm more surprised that people, after the things that have happened to them, are not bitter than that they are. It's mighty hard to make it through stuff like that unscathed. Link to post Share on other sites
lipglossboost Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 Originally posted by rainbow My main goal is to heal from all of this and figure out what it all means. I do not wish to find anyone's support of what I do just their thoughts. I think this is a healthy outlook to have. You know you've made some mistakes, you're taking responsibility and doing what you need to do to feel good inside again. Like you have said, you can feel it in the pit of your stomach. We all find in life that we've put ourselves where we realize we don't want to, (or shouldn't,) be ... the strong can pull themselves out, and you sound like you are a strong person. Good luck~ Link to post Share on other sites
amerikajin Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Originally posted by rainbow Even though this one statement from one person seems like pretty obvious advice to me, notice how the poster would like you to believe that it is opinion when actually it IS judgement whether they see it or not. And that kind of "advice" can be found anywhere. But still respected and it did hit home. Actually, I meant exactly what I said. I quite specifically used the word "judgment." The fact is, people judge. It is the capacity to judge the abstract that separates us from other creatures on the planet. I'm no different, nor do I make any effort to be. I judge...I just make sure that I judge carefully. I never forget the fact that I've made decisions in my life that were against my own better judgment and offensive to other people, and in each case there were consequences for my behavior. Being an offender, being human, doesn't disqualify you from having the capacity and the duty to make judgments about what you see happening around you. It simply means that you always have to temper justice with mercy. The thing I think that you and Bark are trying to point out is that sometimes people sit high atop an ivory tower and cast stones upon the supposed unruly few as if they are somehow puritans themselves, beyond reproach...only later to be exposed as hypocrites. I, too, share your disdain for these characters, and I don't hesitate to expose them. But no, I clearly meant what I said. I wasn't judging YOU, I was judging your behavior in this situation, and I was pointing out that I thought it was wrong. Nothing more, nothing less. As for the blowup between Bark and moimeme, I can't really find anything that moimeme said that was really out of bounds. I don't think she was chastizing you or disparaging your character, Bark. As I recall, you made a rather vague comment about people who supposedly had a tendency to go too far in their capacity as moral arbiters, and she was simply rebutting those remarks and attempting to provide some clarification or another angle that perhaps hadn't been considered - albeit a bit bluntly. She was a bit direct in her initial response, but part of the appeal of being on a messageboard is one's ability to be candid and say what one really thinks. I find that messageboards, while sometimes a bit hostile and confrontational, are often very effective at providing a springboard for honest discussion. Posters on this forum have to be prepared for that, and in the words of Harry Truman, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Post your indiscretions at your own risk. Link to post Share on other sites
felice Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by rainbow "I am the other woman." How did I get here? I ask myself this question often. I was(will be) married 4 yrs in Jan. I left my husband 3 mos ago - agonized over the decision for about 2years. Stepped outside the marriage once, went to marriage counseling for 9 mos and it still fell apart despite my efforts. I realize now through therapy, I never loved my husband, I loved the "picture frame" around my life...nice job, nice house, comfort security. I started trying to have a baby while going through marriage couns. In heinsight, which is always the best sight, I was just trying to be happy. Through extremely supportive friends, family and individual therapy, I know now my husband and I are just extremely different people who look at everything differently. He lacked self esteem, which in turn led to mistrust, posession, jealousy, and no support of what I wanted to accomplish in my life. To top it off he was a drinker. During the last mos of our therapy I became involved with a second person. This person is still in my life and he is married. The first person I believe kept me in a state of "deadlock" because I was scared that I was leaving for him. I did not want to leave for another person. I wanted to go on my own terms and be sure the love was gone. It is. I moved out, got my own apt and now I am deeply in love with a married man. this person is also very unhappy and has been in his own personal silent hell of deciding on whether to end it, even before me. The person who initiates divorce typically has complempated it for a year or more and stepping outside of the marriage is a way to know that there is something else out there. That you are desirable and you self esteem resurfaces. But me leaving has made our relationship easier on him. He can call me now whenever HE wants and stop by whenever HE wants. Of course I never say no, b/c I love him. We both know that even if he did leave it would be a long process... divorce , healing, getting settled, etc. but I do dream of a life with him. I know there are problems he has and she has problems with him. But that is not for me to try and figure out w/o driving myself crazy. A person must be ready to make the move on their own for the right reasons. We have "broken up" over a dozen times knowing that it is best. but then an email comes and the a phone call then a meeting. It's a vicious circle. I know he loves me. But I also know what we BOTH are doing is wrong. It is complete limbo and not fair to anyone involved. We have been somewhat caught so now she does not trust him but at the same time will not confront him. She is obviouslly in denial. If he tells me that he is going to stay and go to marriage counseling that will feel like an answer and I will be able to walk away. I think he is avoiding the confrontation with his wife b/c he is scared of not talking to me anymore and probably already came to the conclusion that his marriage of 20+ yrs is not going to change - at least not without years of hard work through counseling on both sides. I guess I don't have any questions, b/c I know none of you could possible have an answer. He is everything my husband wasn't. But how can it be real. At least not in this lifetime. Divorce is not an easy thing and getting over a broken heart in the midst of it is even more excruciating. I talked to him earlier today and he thinks she wants to talk tonight. I pray he calls tomorrow to end it. I am not strong enough yet...... Link to post Share on other sites
Felice Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I am the other woman too.There.I said it.And,yes,I am ashamed.Ashamed of myself,ashamed of it all.Guilty of all charges.I did not ask to be placed into this "postion",but was lied to for months and months before I found out the truth that he really is married.Now that I know,what do I do?I love this man,I crave this man,but how can I look in the mirror day after day and contnue on with this lie.I know all the stories,hgow he'll never leave her and I am just being used,and that he'll always go back to his wife no matter what the situation is,and I never ever would place myself willingly in such a situation,but now that I am here I find myself doubting all that I know to be true.And I am not a stupid,needy person who condones such relationships,but like you,I am having a hard time walking away.....help me please...someone.....confusion doesn't begin to cover what I am feeling Link to post Share on other sites
Author rainbow Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 Felice It is agonizing to be where we are. It must be even more excruiating to have found out you were lied to. My lover and I walked into this nightmare with our eyes open. Knowing that it could not go anywhere besides our feelings becoming more intense. But I just put it out of my mind. I shouldn't have. People say men are weak, but so are women. You need to find out what his intentions are. have you asked him why he led you to believe he was single? how long before you knew. It is true that most men do not leave. It is also true that you can not influence anyone to make the decision to leave their spouse. It is like I had an ephipany that day I left my husband, my friends and family knew I was miserable. but until I could admitt I was in an unhappy marriage (which is so hard to do) I stayed. I suffered in my own personal silent hell keeping up a front that "we" were happy. In my own time, I decided to end it. So if your thinking about an ultimatum with this guy. ...forget it. 1) he lied 2) he's married and the longer it keeps up the harder it is. I am hurting bad, deeply, very deeply. but I am keeping myself very busy. I just got a second job tonight that I am very excited about in a nice upscale restaurant. I didn't know what to do with myself, but keeping busy and meeting new people is what you need to do to keep your mind active. A therapist once told me when I was depressed. "the world is so big, so vast. There are so many interesting people to meet and things to do." It became my mantra. Keep saying it and move on... Good luck and come back whenever for support from me. Rainbow Insanity= Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result. The young have their dreams, the old their regrets, but only the middle-aged know how to live. Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Alright, Felice, take a deep breath and exhale slowly. Now, here we go. First, you're not the "other woman." You're a sane, intelligent and normal woman who fell in love with a man after believing his lies that he was single. You're not the "other woman." Instead, you're your boyfriend's "other victim." His wife being victim no.1. My guess is you found out about his marriage when you were in the early, intense infatuation part of the romantic relationship-- when hormones are raging and love feelings are strongest. This is when it's very difficult to jump off the love train. But jump off you must. Jump off for the sake of your sanity, dignity and self-respect. Jump off for his wife's sake. I'm not a believer of total honesty in relationships . Sometimes the truth hurts so much that nothing of value accrues from telling it. But no meaningful long term relationship can survive when it has originated, as here, from a total lie. I recommend that you go into counseling immediately, involve yourself with friends and other projects and exit this abortion of a relationship, now. Your goal, Felice, is to heal so that you can love and trust again. And I know you will do just that. Link to post Share on other sites
Author rainbow Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 Hey Bark Giving out awesome advice again? First of all, attorney? are you sure. You are such a nice guy. and believe me Felice if you take Barks advice you will start to feel better. BTW after you jump off the train Bark is talking about, leave the guilt onboard. !!! Rainbow Link to post Share on other sites
Felice Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 First and formost,Thank you,Thank you for listening and Thank you for caring,and also Thank you for your kind words of support. To answer your questions,we have been "dating" for 8 months now,and I just now found out about the wife,and it's killing me.He lied to me,he says,because he knew of my values and knew that I would never put up with such a situation and he simply did not want to loose me.I can kinda understand that,but what I cannot understand or forgive is the fact that he is married.I don't even know his wife,but I just can't do this to her,much less me.But I don't suppose either one of us expected this to happen,but now that it has,it seem s that I am the one left to suffer.How could I ever trust him now.Never,ever.I feel sorry for her.Men get away with this **** because they can and I don't see how they do it and live with themselves.It hurts,and it hurts bad.He'll never leave her,and would I really want him if he did?Doubtful. Link to post Share on other sites
Author rainbow Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 Wow YOu are find. Kick him to the curb~ Yeah he obviously knows that you are a wonderful, intelligent and loving woman that would have never accepted the true situation. and his situation is he is stuck in a miserable marriage and he lost you. I feel sorry for him. You are so strong. Keep busy and keep walking. rainbow Link to post Share on other sites
Felice Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Now if I can just put these things into action.Normally I would have never given someone like him a second chance and I still won't,BUT it does'nt make it any easier now,does it?And now that I know about the wife and I also now know her name and what she looks like,I wonder....does she know the same.What do I do if I accidently run into her?Take the ass kickin'n that I so deserve? Or just TRY to explain and apologize for what I now know to be a lie,and would I be so forgiving if I were her?Would she even believe me?I seem to be more on her side now than his.He nows it's over between us and that I can't deal with it,but he continues to call and come by,which does not help.After all,I am only human,and I am weak at that,especially when it comes to him.i just want to run and hide. Link to post Share on other sites
Author rainbow Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 Hello, who are you, please bring Felice back. Felice, stop contact completely, get a good bottle of wine and the sappiest love story you can find on DVD. "love is a many splendored thing" with audrey hepburn and cary grant. tear jerker! get out the best cry you have and write him a letter and then burn it. There is no easy receipe. but "I would rather have 5 minutes of something wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special" Steal Magnolias and if we never had bad days then how would we know that we were having a good day (do not know who said that ) Link to post Share on other sites
Felice Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I know,I go back in forth.Boucing back in forth somewhere between strength and weakness.Plus he JUST called.Don't worry,I let it go to voice mail,but that could do more harm than good,it will just prompt him to come by uninvited because he knows that I am here avoiding him.How could his wife NOT know he's out screwing around.He never goes home until late.late at night claiming that he's working alllllll the time.And I don't know too many women who don't know when their man ius cheating.We all can tell sooner or later,can't we?But again,sometimes denial is better than reality. Link to post Share on other sites
Author rainbow Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 you need to go back and read the second response posted to me and then scroll down and read Barks first post it may give you insight of what was already said to me. about understanding it. but unfortunatley it never makes any sense. if he comes by tell him how you feel if he truly cares about you he will stay away knowing it's what is best for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Ahhh Felice and Rainbow....I was with a guy for almost TWO FRIGGIN YEARS and assumed he was legally separated...till he went to war.....and I kinda figured the hard way.... MY NAME wouldn't be on the Body Bag!!! I'm not taking responsibility for his disgressions. He LIED and was a complete ASSCLOWN. To me....not ALL mean who screw around are jerks. The one's who lie and misrepresent themselves are the jerks. I refuse to feel guilty for a situation I didn't cause. I know for a fact these guys schmooze thru life claiming you are their "soul mate" and all kinds of crap....but the bottom line is this...they are CAKEMEN. They want it all....at YOU and their WIVE'S expense. They are self serving only! Sure....You may miss what you THOUGHT you had with them.....but the truth is....you only played a role in their lie. I totally know how you feel...TRULY I do.....but several months after the fact....I can tell you .....you will not only move on....but you will end up HATING the SOB!!! All he did was waste your time and take advantage of your vulnerabilities. The only person in a worse predicament than YOU....is the WIFE who is stuck with him legally....and his children. Link to post Share on other sites
Felice Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Cakemen,hugh? I like it. Thank you for being brutally honest with me,it hurts,it makes me cry,but its true,and sometimes the truth hurts,and sometimes all we need is for someone to show it to us.Are ther any decent men left out there?Ones that will be honest and faithful?Sometimes I feel like I am the weird one.Everyone else is doing it.Think about it.....how many loyal,faithful marriages/relationships do you know of? What I do know is that I would rather continue to be single and alone than continue in this lie based relationship.Whats the difference anyway? Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Felice.....NOT ALL MEN are like that!! I don't even know if the ones who are realize how much they hurt everyone involved. You would think it would be OBVIOUS you don't play two women with "love games"....but...they seem to do it with so much conviction. To be honest...I think they MEAN it when they say it!!! They want the best of both worlds. They get 100% with the Wife and the Lover. BUT YOU.....youget the 50% of hell....not belonging to anyone. If a man can't offer you "his name".....then it's just a sex game. It's cruel as hell....if you think about it. Link to post Share on other sites
Felice Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I think men get away with this because,again,they can.If more women,like myself,would say "no" to these situations,maybe it would somehow,someday subside.Where are all our morals and values gone?And why do people get married and make the commitment of all commitments just to break their vows like it's meaningless?And why do people stay in loveless relationships?It just seems like hurt allllllll the way around for everybody involved,especially for the unsuspecting ones such as my self. He hid it so well too.I was living in Cozumel Mx for the past year and thats where we met for the 3rd time and sparks flew.He would come to the island once a month for a week for business each month so thats all we saw one another,except for DAILY contact via the internet and phone.So I guess it was easy for him to hide the fact that he had a wife until I moved back home where we both are from,and thats when I found out the truth.Sure lots and lots of people told me on the island that he was still married,but he kept insisting that he was divorced,and I suppose that I just wanted him so badly and so much that I overlooked it and chose to believe him.Now unfortunatley the truth is out,and its sad to know I have been so stupid and so blind over a lying,cheating,decieving man once again.So it's hard for me to believe that they aren't all like that because it is so previlant and common.One day someone out there will appreciate my loyality.But in the meantime it still hurts,and it hurts bad. Link to post Share on other sites
Arabess Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Any woman who's ever been in your position Felice....ended up feeling stupid and naive. It's hard not to believe someone when you want to believe them so badly. You keep thinking SURELY your situation is different than the rest of the "other women" in the world....SURELY he is isn't lying....SURELY he wouldn't use you for some self serving personal satisfaction. But the truth of the matter is....a man who plays two women....doesn't love or repect either one of them. You may hurt for a long time....but it's better to have a painful end....than a pain with no end. Link to post Share on other sites
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