Owl Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Well, he may or may not come back 'crawling'...but he DOES need to be willing to take whatever steps YOU deem needed to recover the marriage. And...you need to be willing to INSIST on those same things. There are a number of things. Marriage counseling with a counselor who has a good track record and plan for recovering marriages from infidelity. "Open book" transparency to allow you to verify his trustworthiness and let him rebuild your trust in him. Full disclosure of all information about the affair, the OW, etc... If he attempts to set ANY limitations on any of this...tell him he's free to leave. Don't negotiate. Link to post Share on other sites
Author broken hearted Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 Here's the thing Owl, we can't even speak to eachother about this situation or making a plan to move forward because we both have so much anger and hurt over it that it always ends up in an argument. I have to friggin go and spend another $150 in a counseling session for him to answer whether or not he's willing to do all of the things you've mentioned above bc we can't sit down and have a conversation without arguing. I want to know things and for him to answer my questions and gets angry with me asking bc he said it doesn't matter, he's already made the mistake and there's nothing he can do about it now. We are going to see a counselor that has many years of experience with infidelity and in fact offers monthly intensive marriage retreats designed around affairs. Link to post Share on other sites
Author broken hearted Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 To me, if he can't even sit and discuss to me whether or not he's willing to do everything it takes than it sends off red flags in my head. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Here's the thing Owl, we can't even speak to eachother about this situation or making a plan to move forward because we both have so much anger and hurt over it that it always ends up in an argument. I have to friggin go and spend another $150 in a counseling session for him to answer whether or not he's willing to do all of the things you've mentioned above bc we can't sit down and have a conversation without arguing. I want to know things and for him to answer my questions and gets angry with me asking bc he said it doesn't matter, he's already made the mistake and there's nothing he can do about it now. We are going to see a counselor that has many years of experience with infidelity and in fact offers monthly intensive marriage retreats designed around affairs. If you don't feel your H, or this marriage, is worth it...don't waste the time/money/effort. File for divorce. There is NO requirement for you to try to reconcile if you don't honestly feel that it can be done, or that it's not worth it at this point. Link to post Share on other sites
Author broken hearted Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 That's the problem, I can't figure it out at this point. I just don't understand why he can't tell me without a counselor being present whether or not he is willing to do EVERYTHING it takes to rebuild this marriage and my trust. If he's not willing to do that than this marriage won't survive and there's no point in seeing a counselor again. He just sent me a text that said, "I want you" but still won't answer my questions about doing what it takes to have me after what he's done to this marriage, our family, my family, his family. I'm sorry for rambling on and on but I know you have been through this Owl and I would really like this marriage to work, I really would, I'm just not sure what's normal behavior and anger on his part right now and what should be considered a red flag. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Then tell him...point blank...that you NEED him to step up and decide whether or not he's going to work on the marriage BEFORE you make any decisions going forward or seeking counseling. Again...INSIST on what you need. Don't let him set the pace/limits/boundaries. Link to post Share on other sites
Author broken hearted Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 I'm sorry, I feel like a rambling fool and I'm sure I sound incredibly confused and desperate for answers. He just called me and said, "what do you think I want, what do you think I'm willing to do, if you don't want me to contact her, i won't, if you want me to give you passwords to phones and emails, i will, if you want me to do whatever it takes, i will." Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Then sit down and write out a list of those things that we've talked about, as well as any other things that you can think of. Go to the library or book store and glance through a copy of "Surviving an Affair" for ideas of additional requirements. Put your list together, and give it to him. What have you got to lose? Link to post Share on other sites
PhoenixRise Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 That's the problem, I can't figure it out at this point. I just don't understand why he can't tell me without a counselor being present whether or not he is willing to do EVERYTHING it takes to rebuild this marriage and my trust. If he's not willing to do that than this marriage won't survive and there's no point in seeing a counselor again. He just sent me a text that said, "I want you" but still won't answer my questions about doing what it takes to have me after what he's done to this marriage, our family, my family, his family. I'm sorry for rambling on and on but I know you have been through this Owl and I would really like this marriage to work, I really would, I'm just not sure what's normal behavior and anger on his part right now and what should be considered a red flag. Your husband wants you to commit to staying in the marriage WITHOUT him actually doing anything to change himself or address the problems. AND He is totally trying to manipulate you with his suicide threats. I know you care for him and would not want to see anything happen to him. Your husband knows you feel this way too. He is trying to control your decision with his threats to harm himself. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I don't agree with Dex's description of a marriage that's recovered from infidelity, btw. I understand where he's coming from...he didn't want to/wasn't able to consider recovering his own marriage. Nor do I believe that his wife showed any remorse/regret or desire to try to do so either. In that case, he clearly did the right thing. But not having lived through recovering and rebuilding a marriage, he's just guessing at what it's like to live in one that has done so. I live there today. Yes, but you pretty much affirmed my analogy of the car wreck with the part about it looking nice, but still being a few things that bug you. I have no doubt you love your marriage, consider it recovered, but I think you have even admitted that not everything is the way you want it. Didn't you say once that the trust is no longer blind and that there is just a small inkling of suspicion from time to time? Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Yes, but you pretty much affirmed my analogy of the car wreck with the part about it looking nice, but still being a few things that bug you. I have no doubt you love your marriage, consider it recovered, but I think you have even admitted that not everything is the way you want it. Didn't you say once that the trust is no longer blind and that there is just a small inkling of suspicion from time to time? Not any longer...I've not "suspected her" of anything for years now. And you're right about the blind trust thing...however...as I've stated many, many times...that "blind trust" is destroyed no matter WHO I ended up with. I now know that ANYONE can cheat on me. Regardless if I was with my wife, or with someone new...I'd never "blindly trust" again. My marriage is as good a "vehicle" as any other one I'd be in right now...better than most, in fact! I know it runs, and it can make it through the "tough spots"! :) Link to post Share on other sites
Spark1111 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I agree. Here is what I did: Insisted he attend IC and go NC with the OW. Grant me full access to his email and cell phone. Demand answers to all my questions regarding affair and other woman. When he weaved or dodged or refused to answer my questions, I STOPPED PARTICIPATING IN ANY EFFORTS TO RECONCILE. The truth trickled out slowly and surely and here is why he weaved and dodged and avoided answering my questions: He was still lying! The affair was of much longer duration than he had led me to suspect. It was of greater intensity than he led me to suspect. He claimed he crashed into her when in fact he had been pursuing her, and yes, she him. He doesn't want to talk about it because perhaps, he has been lying to you for much longer than even he wants to admit. Perhaps before he even separated with you? Cheaters are known to create situations where they can find trememdous fault with the spouse to...separate. Do you know for sure he wasn't having the affair BEFORE he started to blame you for problems in the marriage so he could have a reason to move out and be freer to see her?????? Maybe THAT's WHY he doesn't want to talk about it. The scenario he NOW PAINTS OF THE RECENT PAST EVENTS ARE LIKELY A LIE. Link to post Share on other sites
Author broken hearted Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 Yeah, I have no idea. He told both me and the counselor that he did not leave because he was having an affair and that it had not started at that point. But at this point, I have no trust in what he is saying because I have been asking him for months if there was someone else and he said no no no. He even told his mother there was no one else when she asked. I have thought that maybe it started prior to him leaving so he could freely see her but there definitely were some issues within the marriage and that's why he left. We were both crying for eachother to change some behaviors and be more emotionally available to eachother but neither one of us heard the other person. I, however, chose not to find it in someone else while he did. Link to post Share on other sites
PhoenixRise Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Yeah, I have no idea. He told both me and the counselor that he did not leave because he was having an affair and that it had not started at that point. But at this point, I have no trust in what he is saying because I have been asking him for months if there was someone else and he said no no no. He even told his mother there was no one else when she asked. I have thought that maybe it started prior to him leaving so he could freely see her but there definitely were some issues within the marriage and that's why he left. We were both crying for eachother to change some behaviors and be more emotionally available to eachother but neither one of us heard the other person. I, however, chose not to find it in someone else while he did. Broken hearted If you suspected for months that there was someone else then there WAS someone else. Your H is lying to you, his mother, and the counselor about this. At this point, you need to trust YOUR gut more than you trust his word. Link to post Share on other sites
Author broken hearted Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 No, he has admitted that it had been going on for a couple months now...sexual for a couple months anyway. He said that she had nothing to do with the start of the separation 5 months ago and that this hadn't begun. Again, I have no idea what to believe as we are just in the beginning of this. Link to post Share on other sites
Snowflower Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 No, he has admitted that it had been going on for a couple months now...sexual for a couple months anyway. He said that she had nothing to do with the start of the separation 5 months ago and that this hadn't begun. Again, I have no idea what to believe as we are just in the beginning of this. And don't worry about what to believe...right now you probably shouldn't believe anything your husband tells you. He already has proven in multiple ways that he is capable of lying. The fact that his A happened is enough for you to deal with right now. If you decide to reconcile then you can begin to discern what details are truthful and which ones aren't. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 It's up to your husband to PROVE the truth, and PROVE his trustworthiness to you going forward. It's not your job to unilaterally forgive him before he's accomplished this. Link to post Share on other sites
PhoenixRise Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 No, he has admitted that it had been going on for a couple months now...sexual for a couple months anyway. He said that she had nothing to do with the start of the separation 5 months ago and that this hadn't begun. Again, I have no idea what to believe as we are just in the beginning of this. BH I know that a marriage can recover after infidelity if both spouses are willing to put in the work to make it happen. Sometimes after dday it can take awhile for the wandering spouse to wake up and realize they need to put in the effort or they are going to lose the marriage. From what I have seen and experienced, they don't wake up until they are forced to face some real consequences. It seems to me that your H has not woken up yet. It sounds like he is still blaming, deflecting, and gaslighting. You have nothing to gain by indulging him in this. You need to protect yourself emotionally from his behavior. The advice you recieved to sit down and make a list of what you need him to do to recover the marriage and restore your trust is good advice. Do it today. Make your list and if talking about the affair without his anger is what you need, then put it on the list. Give him the list, then watch to see what he does. Then you will know what to do. Link to post Share on other sites
Author broken hearted Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 The list is very good advice...thanks! At this point, I am trying to figure out what's best for me! I know I deserve someone who won't do this to me but my husband and I have so many memories, so much history, and so many reasons to make this work. I would like to at least give it a try but am terrified that I will never be able to get these images out of my head and I am terrified that I will constantly be worrying everytime he walks out of the house, everytime his phone rings, everytime he goes to work (since this happened at work). I will admit that my husband has NEVER been good with communication or words as long as I've known him and he has always tried to keep things inside to avoid conflict and that's why I'm assuming he is keeping a lot of it in bc he knows how upset and hurt I am at the moment...no excuse though, if I want answers, he needs to be able to give me them and then deal with my being upset about what I hear. Link to post Share on other sites
NOTSURE7 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 hi there- i am not expert yet but i figured maybe i can help, i just recently on my own doing told my W about my past which included a current A that lasted a year, i can tell you that from minute one i was open and honest with her, and i answered even the most graphic intimate questions she had with brutal honesty, i didnt run from the conversations,dday was only thursday so i have a long road ahead of me, but what everyone is telling you is right beleive me i have been coming to everyone for support here and they are the ones who actually helped me break my cycle and start on the road to honesty. if your H truly loves you he will not do what you ask him to do but will make sure he comforts you and holds you and although he might have communication issues, now is not the time for that. My w is crushed and devastated and probably just like you shocked,she is running a full range of emotions but she knows that i am here, that i love her and that i will do what it take to make our marriage work.so at least she knows that when the dark times come. anyway as i said i am new to this but there is alot of good advice to be found here..good luck in your journey as we all need it. Link to post Share on other sites
Author broken hearted Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 What a coincidence NOTSURE7 Dday was Thursday for me as well. Although, I found a message on my husband's phone. I had a gut feeling for months but trusted his word so I never snooped. He told me for a week that it was not physical in any way shape or form. We had our first marriage counseling session this past Thursday that it was a full blown affair. We had been having some issues in the marriage and he had moved in with his parents 5 months earlier. He seemed to get really upset when I told him I went to speak with a lawyer and filled out the initial paperwork. I think it hit him then that he was going to lose everything but I haven't seen true remorse on a daily basis like what you are showing. He keeps saying that he's already done what he's done the details don't matter and he can't take it back. Link to post Share on other sites
NOTSURE7 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 What a coincidence NOTSURE7 Dday was Thursday for me as well. Although, I found a message on my husband's phone. I had a gut feeling for months but trusted his word so I never snooped. He told me for a week that it was not physical in any way shape or form. We had our first marriage counseling session this past Thursday that it was a full blown affair. We had been having some issues in the marriage and he had moved in with his parents 5 months earlier. He seemed to get really upset when I told him I went to speak with a lawyer and filled out the initial paperwork. I think it hit him then that he was going to lose everything but I haven't seen true remorse on a daily basis like what you are showing. He keeps saying that he's already done what he's done the details don't matter and he can't take it back. wow we are very similiar, i do want to compare notes and maybe help you from the other side as i am a wh and you can help me as the bw but i dont want to take over this thread.please post on my current thread and then i will answer and tell you what we are going through. Link to post Share on other sites
Author broken hearted Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 This is a list of things I want from my husband to show me is willing to do anything to save our marriage and attempt to right his wrong: passwords to emails and phones ABSOLUTE NC WITH OW sincere letter of apology to my parents sincere letter of apology to his parents sincere letter of apology to mine and his brothers sincere letter of apology to me reassuring me daily it will never happen again truth to any questions i may want to know the answer to NEW VOWS FROM HIM (he broke his vows we made on our wedding day and they can never be unbroken again so, therefore, I want new ones that aren't broken full disclosure of his daily schedule so I can check for accuracy I'm still working on this... If I were him, I would have already done all of these without being asked! Link to post Share on other sites
Author broken hearted Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 oh yes, and... a full test for all STD's before he is to come near me a visit with a psychiatrist (i do believe he needs some help and so does he) Link to post Share on other sites
hopesndreams Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Good list. There is something else you can add to that list. He should get tested for STD's. Link to post Share on other sites
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