Apart and shaken

[Gunny376]

Your doing better then I am man, keep it up. Her friend, might be able to give you some insight into what your wife is up to. I just wouldn't let it look like thats what your after, and I wouldn't give anything in return. The less known the better.

TOJAZ

 

That's my Boy! That's my man!

 

He's learning and growing every freaking day! He's getting his 'game' on!

 

That's what I'm talking about!

[lupa]

Ok, so we just got off the phone. I was all "Hey! How's it going?!" Blah blah blah happy. She is really taken aback by this...we BS'ed for two seconds and that I asked (before I had read gunny's recommendation for a neutral place):

 

"Come on over at like 7:00 and I'll have some sushi at the house. We can sit out on the porch and talk in private."

 

response was something like, "Ohh...ummm...I...uh..."

 

So I said, "Ok, would that make you uncomfortable? I can see how."

 

"I..."

 

I then asked her to think about another location, restaurant, park, whatever, and let me know. I did say that I didn't want someone sitting like directly behind my head in the next booth, you know?

 

Then I said, "Well, think about it, and I'll talk to you later. See ya!"

 

I feel like a commando doing surgical strikes now. Come in one direction, hit the target, get the hell out. I still stand by my claim that this is all ridiculous and people should just be able to be forthcoming, but I'm starting to understand how I got us here (with her help, of course) and that it isn't as easy as saying, "oh. ok. Well, I most certainly can change" and having her believe it.

 

Either way, I then sent a text about 20 minutes later recommending another place...haven't heard a response yet. I'm kinda stressed out right now.

 

...and I'm kinda afraid that I'm putting too much emphasis on tonight. I just don't even know who I'm dealing with any more. I want to call her friend to ask what's up, but I don't want anyone to think I'm meddling. I just want the information.

 

I have a terrible feeling she is going to say awful things to me tonight, but then I think she felt vulnerable at home, or at least weak, and maybe she is just a lost soul right now.

 

I keep holding out hope, I really do. Each day is getting easier to do other things...start working on myself, that sort of thing...but I still keep holding out hope.

 

And I'm afraid I'm setting myself up for a fall.

 

 

I just don't know how she could be this hateful towards me. We have a good life together. We let the relationship suffer, and she thinks it is dead, but I think it can be revived. I guess tonight I'll know what she thinks.

 

I'm not going to pressure her, I'm not going to recommend counseling (though if it comes up I'll say something like, "that is a good idea, let's work together to find one that focuses on what we had happen"), I'm only going to talk about what I've learned, and listen twice as much as I talk to how she feels.

 

I hope. I'm the first to admit that I'm weak in a lot of ways, but I didn't hit her, I didn't yell. I neglected her, sometimes, and went off on my own to avoid conflict. Maybe that is cowardly, I don't know, but women are so irrational and men are so locked in the rational that sometimes it is just easier that way.

 

I want to show her how much I care, without actually showing her or telling her. She needs to get out of this fog. Maybe she won't...that would really be sad. I am, however, ready to accept that as a possibility.

 

Get strong.

 

Stay strong.

 

Hoorah!

 

HOORAH!

[LisaUk]

Lupa, you are doing well.

 

BUT DON'T KEEP TEXTING. You are playing into her hands, you have suggested a place now leave it. If you keep texting she knows you are stressed, you are playing into her hands. You want her to think you're cool, happy, unconcerned.

 

I agree with you totally, I can't be doing with playing games, but unfortunatley you are in a situation where you have no option and so you must make your game plan and play it out.

 

As for the meet tonight, don't talk to much, take Gunnys advice on this. Just say I see, I understand a lot. Tell her you want to work on it because you love her, you understand how your behaviour has made her feel blah blah. Just give of the impression that you CAN live without her, but you would prefer not to. Remember what you are trying to achieve, you want her to desire you again, people want what they can't have, people don't want someone who is desperate or needy.

 

Try not to stress, tonight isn't the be all and end all I'm sure, it's just the start of the game, with many more tactics to come!

 

Oh, I wish I was in your postion, my ex wouldn't even meet with me. All I can do is NC, if he comes back, great, if not I will have moved on

[intrepid father]

I just read through this entire thread. Lisa, Gunney, Chrome, Tojaz....all of your advice and openness has helped me throughout a very trying time. Although it has been only 3 weeks, it has been rough at times. Thank you!

 

Lupa, the constant change in your tide of emotions is something I am going through also....I miss my wife dearly..I have envoked LC and it seems to have helped as far as her curiosity goes about me. Our convos are only about our kids and finances. If she asks about me...all she gets is a smile and an "I'm good".

I have been practicing this little gem lately. "Keep your shoulders back and your chin up." and boy...without even knowing it my day seems better. Whatever may happen, just do you! Everyone here has been a great help to fellows like us that are lost in our own darkness...We can get to that place of warmth and light again..whether on our own or reconciled. Believe that......and Quit texting so much.

[lupa]

Lol...in my defense, I stopped the "inquiry" texts about a week ago. Today's was just to suggest a place to meet. Nice, new restaurant...the food is phenomenal, and it isn't the quietest place in the world, so we may get privacy in public. Watch it be a ghost town tonight...ha. Oh geez it might not even be open on monday.

 

She sent me a response text, I didn't respond, then she sent another asking if the time was good.

 

I wrote back, "Yeah, gives me time to take care of the house a little."

 

Instant response, confirming the time and place...way more info than was needed.

 

Why do I have to feel like I'm playing a game?

 

Also, and I'm 100% serious here -- I'm very afraid of what is about to happen tonight. I think the face-to-face is a risk I have to take because I need to gain some control over myself and this experience...if it goes badly, I will start to mentally prepare for the end of the marriage. If it goes well, I will only miss her more and more as I'm out of town.

 

The outcome I fear is if I leave just as confused as when I get there...no closure or sign of anything in any direction. I don't know how I can handle that at all.

 

I think I'm going to imagine Gunny sitting there next to her, kicking me in the shins under the table every time I'm about to do something stupid like open up about my feelings, interrupt her, talk about the future...in other words, be the me of the last few months, and not the me of the last two weeks (ok, week and a half).

 

No ultimatums tonight, agree with a lot, and smile a ton.

 

I wonder who is more scared of this meeting..?

 

Also -- if she says she wants a divorce, my response will be, "Yes, I feel it is for the best, as I see now you and I could never be compatible." I wonder what would happen then..?

 

I hope I don't have to say that.

[LisaUk]

 

Also -- if she says she wants a divorce, my response will be, "Yes, I feel it is for the best, as I see now you and I could never be compatible." I wonder what would happen then..?

 

I hope I don't have to say that.

 

Why would you say this?

[tojaz]

Why would you say this?

Agreed, be honest. How about "If you think thats whats best for you, but I feel that our marriage can be better and stronger with a little effort now that we have uncovered all these issues" She might bite, and she might not, but be honest with her the whole way. Theres enough mixed messages flying around as it is. Good luck Lupa!

TOJAZ

[LisaUk]

Agreed, be honest. How about "If you think thats whats best for you, but I feel that our marriage can be better and stronger with a little effort now that we have uncovered all these issues" She might bite, and she might not, but be honest with her the whole way. Theres enough mixed messages flying around as it is. Good luck Lupa!

TOJAZ

 

Totally!!!!!!!!

[lupa]

Why would you say this?

Honestly? Because that is the last thing she wants to hear.

 

 

 

 

...ok, so I'm back. What a whirlwind of an experience. I'll try to summarize, without playing out the whole thing line for line:

 

She is hanging on to the small things now, to make them bigger than they are, make them more of a fight than they need to be. I argued one time, one, when she said something about my family that I could just not let go. They may not show how much they love in the best way, but they feel it and would do anything for anyone the care about. I was not about to hear her say they are manipulative. Everything else I diffused and "understood" because, really, now I can understand her perspective. I never had true empathy before, because I had never been hurt before.

 

I mean, you guys are great...you take a guy who never would have been able to listen, to understand, before all this happened, and you take him in off the street just like a stray. I don't think I had it in me before all of this...I'm not saying I would have judged this whole community...I just wouldn't have gotten it. I didn't have the tools, because I had never been weak in my whole life.

 

So, we sat there, dinner, couple of glasses of wine, and talked. It stayed superficial for a lot, then dove deep, then back to superficial...then back deeper. I stuck with the "I can see how you feel that way" and "I was so blind to this other side...I never meant malice." I stuck with that, by the way, because it is true. I'm not playing a game, and when this all ends (probably badly), I can sleep better at night knowing that I really tried.

 

She cried...a lot. I smiled and laughed a lot, but I have to admit, I teared up a time, talking about how great my friends have been. She kept harping about how I've "highjacked her friends, and now they just support YOU!" ...when the whole time I've talked to her friends it is out of a position of weakness and sorrow.

 

I mean, even her closest friend (other than Mr X, who I am now thoroughly convinced got roped into more than he could handle) is on my side, evidently, and my wife was very aggressive about this. I tried to explain that I called her when I had nobody else, and she called me when I said I didn't want to go into it...by the way, my wife knew every line item we talked about, but trust me when I say I knew what I was doing when I let that info out. I think she feels like people can see my side of this, and it drives everything closer to home.

 

We talked about my seeing the lawyer...I explained it was from a "defensive" position (which is actually true)...and she said she'd never 'screw' me in any of this. I wanted, I mean I really wanted to say, "Oh yeah, then why the f*ck did you move the f*ck out? What the f*ck was that????" but instead I said, "I can't screw in this state, I really can't, and I don't want it to end that way anyway. I was just afraid and looking out for the worst case scenario." I think that calmed her down.

 

Everything I "planted" amongst our friends in a moment of "playing the game" got back to her, and unfortunately, a lot of my weakness and insecurity got back, too. The two overlap each other, but I don't think it is an insurmountable obstacle.

 

As for the future...the cats are going to the kennel, she'll come by every other day to water the plants, get the mail. She cried here, too. She knows we have a good life, and she knows I am a good guy. She also knows that while we have problems, they are so much smaller than everyone else's.

 

Basically, this woman cried about 25 times during the conversation, and I cried once, when talking about how great my friend who came into town is. Never about us, never about our marriage.

 

I asked if I was going to be served papers in the 10 days I was gone...she asked, "Well, is that going to happen to me?" I was shocked, but not displeased, I'm not going to lie. She has no idea what she is doing in any of this. I told her I would not, and that I'd like to try talking a couple of times over the next week or so, just to see if there is a friendship. THAT's when she got a little...I dunno...defensive or something and said that it feels like we are heading for the big "D."

 

Yes, I know I shouldn't have proposed it, but I'm smarter than I look, and I know how to make her 'defensive' and I needed to test the waters.

 

I don't think she wants it, I really don't. I think she's worked herself into such a lather that she can't see any other way out, and is grasping for straws to hang onto to keep the anger and hate up.

 

I will give her time and space, and I can honestly say that I'm about to try to enjoy the next 10 days of getting the hell outta here.

 

...oh yeah, the cutie at work has been back for a couple of days, and has shown some major interest in getting together for drinks when I get back.

 

Ain't nothin like a strong ego to make this all go smoother (I promise I won't do anything stupid any time soon).

 

I'm going to bed somewhat relieved, but still anxious. We'll see.

 

 

Thanks for listening.

[tojaz]

Sounds like it went well lupa, keep us posted:D

TOJAZ

[lupa]

I'm such a fool...I shouldn't have met with her, because now I miss her again. I keep hoping this is going to work.

 

At whatever cost, I am not going to contact her today. If something needs to be discussed, it will be via email only.

 

I swear.

 

Pinky swear?

[LisaUk]

I'm such a fool...I shouldn't have met with her, because now I miss her again. I keep hoping this is going to work.

 

At whatever cost, I am not going to contact her today. If something needs to be discussed, it will be via email only.

 

I swear.

 

Pinky swear?

 

BUISNESS ONLY, make her think. Stay strong.

[lupa]

BUISNESS ONLY, make her think. Stay strong.

You know what, you're right. I am going to start the process of getting strong and staying strong.

 

I know she feels lonely, stuck, and lost, but she is hanging on to the feeling (I think) that this is my fault. I cannot keep offering support...don't get me wrong, I wasn't mean last night, but I only said a lot of "I understand" and "I really see how that must hurt"...but I mean more of the 'support of knowing that I'm there.' That is what has to go.

 

Oh man would I freaking LOVE to know what she is thinking right now.

[lupa]

I just rescanned the thread...geez I was (and still am, but less so) all over the place. This is like getting hit by a bus in slow motion for weeks.

 

The scary part is that you guys are right in pretty much everything you've said and told me to do. The 180 is probably the best advice I've gotten, and it is saving my life. It really is. I can almost function as a human being again, and your advice about "self-talk" and keeping the head up, smiling, living, trying...and most importantly, TIME...is all 100% correct.

 

If someone else makes it this far into the thread, someone new, I can say that, looking from the inside at first, and now being able to look at it from the outside (this thread is almost like my personal blog...ok, it is my personal blog) I have already changed so much.

 

I don't mean I'm a better person yet, not in the least. Instead, I mean that through the advice found here, the online research I've done, and with the support of my friends, I can admit some things about myself that I would have denied or brushed off in the past.

 

I can also tell you that the true you certainly comes shining through as this progresses...I think the true me is a dedicated, loyal, caring guy who buried the 'weaker' emotions to project strength and confidence. I was unaware how much that could hurt others, and how weak it actually made me in the long run.

 

Now we start the process of rebuilding. I've shown my wife as much love and caring as I can, and I do want her back, but not on my old terms. There are new terms now, and they aren't all about me "not losing" her; they are about "us" forging a new bond. If it doesn't happen I will be so very sad, but at the same time I (get this...this is true) no longer feel like the same old 16 yr old guy except that now I have money and can legally buy beer.

 

I think I'm starting to grow up.

 

...or as Gunny says, I'm now starting to be a man.

 

I want to thank, again, everyone who has posted in this thread, everyone who has offered advice (that I sucked at following at first), everyone who has read this and felt even a modicum of compassion for me. I see now that I'm a lot like many other men out there who just had no clue what we were doing in our relationships and lives.

 

I knew I was ready for marriage the day I met her, but now, after experiencing what I have just (and still am) going through, I'm ready to be a husband. I pray for two things: the strength to change these attributes about myself that I've just discovered, and the chance to try.

 

Maybe it won't be with my wife...but with the price I've just paid, I don't think this is a lesson I can forget.

 

Keep the faith, people, and for the guy who is in day 1 - 10 or so, it does hurt a little less each day. I haven't cried in a few...it does get better.

 

Keep the faith.

[tojaz]

Glad to hear it Lupa, to think, I used to be compelled to give YOU advice. I'm kind of stuck in a valley right now, waiting for the upswing. I guess the fact that I know it's coming is something learned in and of itself. Keep up the good fight Lupa, I'm pulling for you.

TOJAZ

[LisaUk]

You're doing great Lupa. The fact you have realised that even if things don't work out with your wife, you will have learnt a lot from this is fantastic. A 16yr old that has money and get buy beer! That made me laugh.

 

You sound such a great guy and you have a great talent for communicating your thoughts and feelings, your posts are always heart felt. Your wife is a very lucky women. Let's hope she realises this!

[lupa]

You're doing great Lupa. The fact you have realised that even if things don't work out with your wife, you will have learnt a lot from this is fantastic. A 16yr old that has money and get buy beer! That made me laugh.

 

You sound such a great guy and you have a great talent for communicating your thoughts and feelings, your posts are always heart felt. Your wife is a very lucky women. Let's hope she realises this!

You're making me blush.

 

For the record, I'm meeting that cute girl from work out for drinks in a half hour. We're going to a place that isn't always frequented by many folks around here, but actually is the same place as last week when all our friends saw me out (lol...this was her idea, not mine).

 

Nothing is going to happen that I would regret, but I'm wanting to get back out there. Not dating per se, but just back out in the world. I think I'm going to find it easier to go out with people I know that I'm semi-attracted to, and then work my way back out into the sea from there. If my wife makes any overtures, I'll welcome the opportunity for us to reconnect, but again, on new terms.

 

I think she is going to be too stubborn to do so, I think she is going to hang onto the bad things too long.

 

I can't live like that...not for long. I can only think of how my grandmother (deceased) would eventually just look at me with a raised eyebrow if I wallowed too long.

 

I've noticed I've started thinking about her more...little things like her saying, "if you clean up a little bit each day, it really takes no time at all" and how completely accepting she was of all of her family. I dunno...this whole thing is so eye opening that I guess you have to work through everything, past and present. I do miss her...and so I want to be a good person like she was.

 

I'm sure I'll still be the same selfish me, but I hope a little less so, and I'll still be the same caring me, but I hope a lot more so.

 

...and I won't stop coming here any time soon. It just is so helpful to get this stuff out, I never would have said it to anyone before.

 

 

...as a side note, there was an email exchange with the wife. While I'm out of town, we've agreed that she will come by on her way to the gym and let the cats in the house to get food. Then, she will come back through and let them back out (I don't want the two of them in here all day long, alone. They start breaking ****. They're fun, but rambunctious). I told her to feel free to spend as much time here as she wants.

 

That, of course, is a complete 180 from where I had been telling her I wanted to know when she arrived and when she left, and I didn't want her having anyone over. I didn't mention "anyone" because I'm starting to believe that the "anyone" was a lot in her head. Quite frankly, the less I care each day, the more I can see the real picture and the worse I feel about being so weak and insecure.

 

All of this must be confusing the hell out of her.

 

I'm going to take my gun to my parents' house, and lock up in a footlocker any possession I don't want people going through. I'll have my cash stash also hidden away (parents')...so really, what do I care? Everything I really cared about walked out on me, and the rest is just "stuff."

 

This isn't easy, and like I said, I'm going to miss her, but I'm starting to see that there is a world outside it all, and there is a me outside of us.

 

...I also notice that I can't stop writing about this, but I mentioned before this place is so cathartic for me. I never had feelings that I would admit, and it just feels good to get them out.

 

Keep working towards the end game, toj, lis, siebert, et al. we'll all get there eventually. It might take time, we might backslide, but we're all going to be better off for it.

 

HOORAH!

[tojaz]

Put that on a poster man, I'll take two. Enjoy your night out. Hoooraaaah!

TOJAZ

[lupa]

Ha ha ha...I'm back, baby.

 

This girl is 23...I'm 31! I had her undivided attention for three hours. We talked, we laughed, got serious, we had fun.

 

I had...fun.

 

I truly think nothing is going to come of it, but we already talked about going out downtown one night when I get back.

 

I miss my wife, but I don't miss myself anymore.

 

Each day a little bit comes back...this is like going through rehab after a major surgery or something.

 

I'm not saying the answer lies in other people, I'm not that naive anymore, I'm saying the answer lies in doing what you love. I love being out in a crowd, being around women, and laying down some smiles.

 

I'm going to keep trying...I'm going to keep getting better.

 

I wish we all could get together one night and just go out for some drinks and some laughs. I want to be able to help people like y'all have done for me in these few short weeks.

 

HOORAH!

[MrMayI]

wow. this thread needs to be archived for the ages.

[LisaUk]

23! Wow there's a whole set of other issues that could raise their head there!

 

Great for your ego though, enjoy!

 

Wish I could meet you, bit tricky as I'm in the UK though! It's weird I have a mental picture of you from your posts, and the others, yet I have no idea what you all really look like! LOL

[tojaz]

Ha ha ha...I'm back, baby.

 

This girl is 23...I'm 31! I had her undivided attention for three hours. We talked, we laughed, got serious, we had fun.

 

I had...fun.

 

I truly think nothing is going to come of it, but we already talked about going out downtown one night when I get back.

 

I miss my wife, but I don't miss myself anymore.

 

Each day a little bit comes back...this is like going through rehab after a major surgery or something.

 

I'm not saying the answer lies in other people, I'm not that naive anymore, I'm saying the answer lies in doing what you love. I love being out in a crowd, being around women, and laying down some smiles.

 

I'm going to keep trying...I'm going to keep getting better.

 

I wish we all could get together one night and just go out for some drinks and some laughs. I want to be able to help people like y'all have done for me in these few short weeks.

HOORAH!

23 huh, could be worse! Besides a cute younger woman will deffinitely get the misses thinking if she finds out! Then again with that on the hook, who knows .

 

I wish we could all meet somewhere too. Not just talk doom and gloom. I feel like I've known you all for a lot longer then a few months, be nice to put a face to the screen name. What the hell is a tojaz anyway?

TOJAZ

[lupa]

What the hell is a tojaz anyway?

TOJAZ

Don't know, but I always thought it sounded cool.

 

Also -- if we could pm...I have a couple of thoughts for you, not the least of which is you can't use your conscious mind to "turn off" the pain and hurt -- or at least I can't. You can't "will" yourself better, but you most certainly can will yourself to take a first step. Mine backfired...or not, depending how you look at it...when I started online communication with some random girl and sent pics, etc. We all knew that was going to end...weirdly...but in the end game, she and I talk on the phone and text. It shouldn't have been the first or second weekend into this, but I don't regret it because I learned a little from that, too. My buddy coming into to town is what saved me...not for any reason other than he freaking listened to me ramble on about this for 5 solid days. I wish I knew how to thank him. But then, he left, and I took my first baby step last night that had a positive impact...also, I slept through the night for the first time in 2 months without drugs. When I woke up I was actually disappointed because I usually have about 6 more hours to go...lol...it was 7:30 and I had to get a move on.

 

Maybe we all have insecurities that we don't even know about. Mine, I think, was not wanting to be alone, even though most people drive me nuts because I have no patience or self-discipline. I think people will still drive me nuts, but I'm starting to learn (starting...I'm still terrible) a little patience. We don't always have to go sprinting through life, but we do need to keep moving. Like I said, I don't quite feel like that young, impatient, overeager guy anymore...

 

The joke about the young bull and old bull comes to mind -- the young bull and the old bull are on top of a hill, looking over a herd of cows. The young bull, in his excitement, says to the old bull, "I'm going to run down this hill at top speed and **** the first one I can."

 

The old bull laughed. "What's so funny?" the young bull exclaimed.

 

"Son, I'm going to walk down this hill, and **** every one of them."

[LisaUk]

Any thoughts for me Lupa?

[lupa]

Any thoughts for me Lupa?

 

I don't think I can give advice at this point...I think the only thing we can do for you right now, lis, is listen. I think you need to keep talking through things, because you are going to see that the guy who left you...left. He walked out. You need to talk to us and get to the conclusion that hurting for your past life is fine, but starting the new life is most important.

 

We are all kind of starting our new lives together. Each day will suck a little less, I hope, but keep coming here and finding support from people who have been through it with you.

 

I know once I figured out that I had a hole in me as a person, it gave me a goal to work on. I literally practiced "listening" and being supportive last night. I think I was somewhat successful, but that is the goal now...become a little better each day as a person, and grow from this.

 

I'm not saying "make lemonade when life gives you lemons" because that is too...trite. I'm saying feel free to wing those lemons right back, and fire a couple of your own. Get out of the other side of this better as a person, and stronger in your heart. Grieve for your loss, remember the good times, and take comfort in knowing that you are different than you were yesterday...and yesterday you were a pretty good person. You're only going to get better as a person for this...and eventually the despair turns to pain turns to hurt turns to memories.

 

...or at least I think so.