Athiests, where do you get your moral values?

[FleshNBones]

The reason people didn't lock their doors was not down to religion.

It was down to the fact that the Law considered the victim more than the criminal.

Sometyhing sadly lacking in our societies nowadays, when the punishment does not fit the crime, and the victim is uncompensated and ignored, once the arrests are made......

And you still have not explained why my statement was hypocritical.

It's ok, I can wait......

Athiest morality has given us gangstas, and unruly unchurched people. We appear to have developed a collective stupidity as a result of the widespread dechurchification. Maybe American society has peaked, and all we have is a future of decadence.

 

I see, drugs are the answer. We need to mass produce some chill pills to go with the happy pills. We can have one to go with every mood, and come in a variety of colors.

[dobler33]

Athiest morality has given us gangstas, and unruly unchurched people. We appear to have developed a collective stupidity as a result of the widespread dechurchification. Maybe American society has peaked, and all we have is a future of decadence.

 

I see, drugs are the answer. We need to mass produce some chill pills to go with the happy pills. We can have one to go with every mood, and come in a variety of colors.

 

 

ha! sorry, i just stumbled on this thread and this is making me laugh my arse off. do you know any gangstas? i do. i work as a therapist in schools and in the criminal justice system. every single gangsta i know - from the corner boys to the OG killers - are religious. some quite devoutly so. put that in your crack pipe and smoke it.

[FleshNBones]

every single gangsta i know - from the corner boys to the OG killers - are religious. some quite devoutly so.

How many were inspired by Jesus to commit a crime? How many said "hallelujah" before pulling the trigger, or spraying some graffiti? I'm not buying it.

 

Ever hear of something called a facade? People seem to become religious when they get caught.

[FleshNBones]

put that in your crack pipe and smoke it.

I made that crack because most of the athiests here seem to be proponents of legalizing (presently illicit) drug use.

[dobler33]

How many were inspired by Jesus to commit a crime? How many said "hallelujah" before pulling the trigger, or spraying some graffiti? I'm not buying it.

 

Ever hear of something called a facade? People seem to become religious when they get caught.

 

i don't only work w folks who get caught. and people can justify their actions in all sorts of ways. i work w people who sell crack so they can feed their kids. they pray to god to help them make ends meet. it is totally counterintuitive to me, but that's how they explain the world to themselves. and i'm not even going to start w how many people are "inspired by jesus" to commit a crime. many crimes over the history of christianity have been supposedly inspired by jesus. that is an inarguable fact.

[dobler33]

I made that crack because most of the athiests here seem to be proponents of legalizing (presently illicit) drug use.

 

i'm still on the fence about this (though i am an atheist) because i don't think there's enough evidence yet - although it's looking better and better. portugal is now beginning to get back data from its legalization of drugs and crime, substance consumption and drug-related violence is down, while numbers of people beginning recovery are up. hard to dismiss this kind of data. that has nothing to do with atheist morality, though. being an atheist does not mean you automatically support drug use. there is this strange idea among religious people that if you remove god the whole ship goes down, madmen run naked through thre streets eating children and raping grannies. i just have no idea where this comes from - it has always confounded me.

[FleshNBones]

i don't only work w folks who get caught. and people can justify their actions in all sorts of ways. i work w people who sell crack so they can feed their kids. they pray to god to help them make ends meet. it is totally counterintuitive to me, but that's how they explain the world to themselves. and i'm not even going to start w how many people are "inspired by jesus" to commit a crime. many crimes over the history of christianity have been supposedly inspired by jesus. that is an inarguable fact.

Nice, selling crack to other kids to feed their own.

Of these people who were "supposedly inspired by jesus", how many would you say were mentally ill? I just wonder how many had problems like a violent temper, problems with bed wetting, or hatred in general.

 

The idea floating here is that you can take an athiest, inject him with some religious (presumably Christian) faith, and then he will become more violent. Do you hold this belief?

[dobler33]

Nice, selling crack to other kids to feed their own.

Of these people who were "supposedly inspired by jesus", how many would you say were mentally ill? I just wonder how many had problems like a violent temper, problems with bed wetting, or hatred in general.

 

The idea floating here is that you can take an athiest, inject him with some religious (presumably Christian) faith, and then he will become more violent. Do you hold this belief?

 

 

yeah, it sucks. i'm out there every day trying to find better solutions.

 

and actually, i wasn't talking about serial killers. i was talking about the many wars, rapes, murders, lynchings, thefts of land and property, genocides and forms of oppression that take place under the aegis of religiosity. quite a few of them have been done in the name of the christian god, "inspired by jesus". the mental status of the people directing such atrocities is a matter for another conversation, although an incredibly interesting one i'll grant you. it's always been my opinion that fundamentalist religiosity is a form of mental illness, as many of the founders of my profession seemed to agree.

 

let me also point out that even though i'm an atheist i am involved with charitable religious organizations that adhere to foundations of justice and community activism. i sing in the choir of one such in my city - a church that has fought for freedom to marry, gay rights, racial equality and the advancement of women. they fight against homophobia, misogyny, racism, classism and political oppression of all sorts, and when i sing with them, even though the words of the songs are about a god i don't believe in, i know that the power of a gathering of people committed to bring strength and freedom to all people is a scientifically observable phenomenon, therefore it doesn't conflict with my atheism. i don't reject the idea of religiosity, i just reject the belief that atheism precludes morality.

[wuggle]

Athiest morality has given us gangstas, and unruly unchurched people.

 

This is cr*p.

[dunstable]

Athiest morality has given us gangstas, and unruly unchurched people. We appear to have developed a collective stupidity as a result of the widespread dechurchification.

 

FNB, take a look at the 1997 statistics from the FBI on religious affiliations of convicted persons in prison (see http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm).

 

I have made an evaluation of the FBI statistics. Since there is no category for "no religious affiliation" and no category for "agnostic", I assumed those convicts with no religious affilation and agnostics were included in those described as "unknown/no answer".

 

The categories of convicts can then be summarized as religious 80.1%, unknown/no answer/no affiliation/agnostic 19.7%, atheists 0.2%.

 

From a 2001 demographic survey http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf, the corresponding figures for the entire US population are religious 80.4%, unknown/no answer/no affiliation/agnostic 19.2%, atheist 0.4%.

 

I chose the 2001 demographics as the closest year to the year of the FBI statistics.

 

It can be seen that there is no significant difference between the affiliations of convicts and those of the population at large. There do appear to be only half as many atheists in jail as would be expected from their prevalence in the population but the percentage of atheists is very small so I would not like to draw any firm conclusions from that observation.

 

In summary, the percentages of religious and non-religious people in jail in the USA in 1997 was almost exactly as in the population as a whole -- so no apparent difference between the religious and the non-religious when it comes to criminal behavior.

 

Your claim that "Athiest morality has given us gangstas" is particularly absurd when one notes that atheists amount to only 0.4% of the US population.

[dunstable]

To add to my previous post (immediately above), although religious people as a whole do not seem to end up in prison in numbers disproportionate to their percentage in the US general population, there are some religions where the proportion in jail does appear to be disproportionate. Catholics were 30% of the general population but 39% of the prison population. Muslims were 1% of the general population but 7% of the jail population. Of course, correlation is not cause and effect - it may for example be that Catholics and Muslims tend to be more numerous in the more deprived sections of US society.

[dobler33]

that's what i'm looking for, dunstable. give me some NUMBERS, baby! thanks for bringing some empirical intelligence to the debate.

[FleshNBones]

To add to my previous post (immediately above), although religious people as a whole do not seem to end up in prison in numbers disproportionate to their percentage in the US general population, there are some religions where the proportion in jail does appear to be disproportionate. Catholics were 30% of the general population but 39% of the prison population. Muslims were 1% of the general population but 7% of the jail population. Of course, correlation is not cause and effect - it may for example be that Catholics and Muslims tend to be more numerous in the more deprived sections of US society.

I suspect the disproportion of Catholics has something to do with the Hispanic population, illegal immigration, and the border debacle in general. I do believe the disproportionate number of Catholics are actually illegal aliens.

 

I do believe Muslim preachers were given extra access (in the name of multiculturalism) to our prison population, and many of they are funded by outside Muslims from places like Saudi Arabia.

[FleshNBones]

that's what i'm looking for, dunstable. give me some NUMBERS, baby! thanks for bringing some empirical intelligence to the debate.

I don't bother with numbers because I doubt any of the people here were convinced with numbers in the first place. It is a waste of time and waste of effort. I can throw in some conditional probabilities for a more accurate representation, but most of you probably won't understand them anyway. What's the point?

[dunstable]

I suspect the disproportion of Catholics has something to do with the Hispanic population, illegal immigration, and the border debacle in general. I do believe the disproportionate number of Catholics are actually illegal aliens.

Do you have any data to support that or is it just a prejudice?

 

 

I do believe Muslim preachers were given extra access (in the name of multiculturalism) to our prison population, and many of they are funded by outside Muslims from places like Saudi Arabia.

That does not provide an explanation of the statistics I quoted.

[dunstable]

I don't bother with numbers ...

I am sure you don't want your preconceptions to be disturbed by facts!

 

I can throw in some conditional probabilities for a more accurate representation, but most of you probably won't understand them anyway.

How arrogant to say most of us are incapable of understanding conditional probability. A conditional probability P(A|B) is just the probability of event A given that event B has occurred. Try us and see whether we understand!

[dobler33]

I am sure you don't want your preconceptions to be disturbed by facts!

 

 

How arrogant to say most of us are incapable of understanding conditional probability. A conditional probability P(A|B) is just the probability of event A given that event B has occurred. Try us and see whether we understand!

 

i find that many people who want to insist upon the unsupportability of atheism have a hard time with numbers. actual data and empirical evidence do not taste good with metaphysical and dogmatic thinking. that seems unflinching w most folks of this mindset i've had conversations with. that's fine, i don't want to try and change your mind. but it would be cool if it could be accepted that atheism and morality are not mutually exclusive. really, it kind of bums me out how we underestimate ourselves. the human pysche is capable of the most amazing and seemingly miraculous feats. why must we give credit for the vast and incomprehensible beauty of the human experience to an imaginary friend?

 

that being said, keep the numbers coming, dunstable. i LOVE em.

[NoIDidn't]

To add to my previous post (immediately above), although religious people as a whole do not seem to end up in prison in numbers disproportionate to their percentage in the US general population, there are some religions where the proportion in jail does appear to be disproportionate. Catholics were 30% of the general population but 39% of the prison population. Muslims were 1% of the general population but 7% of the jail population. Of course, correlation is not cause and effect - it may for example be that Catholics and Muslims tend to be more numerous in the more deprived sections of US society.

 

I disagree with your interpretation of these stats (this post and the one above it). Many more muslims EXIT prison than went in as such. Same for the other religions.

 

Just because a person is religious (believes in a god, is usually the way the question is asked), does not mean they are impervious to criminal activity. Just like being completely logical and rational doesn't automatically follow on that's an atheist.

[dunstable]

I suspect the disproportion of Catholics has something to do with the Hispanic population, illegal immigration, and the border debacle in general. I do believe the disproportionate number of Catholics are actually illegal aliens.

FNB, you don't spell out your argument but I suppose what you are saying is:- Lots of people are in jail for immigration offenses, most of them are Hispanic, Hispanic people are often Catholic, illegal aliens are not counted in the general population statistics, therefore the percentage of Catholics in jail is higher than in the general population. That all may be true, but it doesn't support your original argument that lack of religion is the cause of crime. Having seen the statistics I presented, do you now admit you were mistaken on that?

[dobler33]

I disagree with your interpretation of these stats (this post and the one above it). Many more muslims EXIT prison than went in as such. Same for the other religions.

 

Just because a person is religious (believes in a god, is usually the way the question is asked), does not mean they are impervious to criminal activity. Just like being completely logical and rational doesn't automatically follow on that's an atheist.

 

 

i think, and perhaps i misunderstood this, that that was the point dunstable was making. someone in a previous post had linked atheism with criminality - the idea being that the "dechurchifying" the country is to blame for gangsters and substance abuse. what i took from dunstable's statement was a refutation of ANY covalence of religion and criminality, which is at least a good place to start.

[NoIDidn't]

i think, and perhaps i misunderstood this, that that was the point dunstable was making. someone in a previous post had linked atheism with criminality - the idea being that the "dechurchifying" the country is to blame for gangsters and substance abuse. what i took from dunstable's statement was a refutation of ANY covalence of religion and criminality, which is at least a good place to start.

 

While I agree with that, it is equally wrong to attempt to claim that religious belief is somehow relevant in actual criminals. Its not. For an atheist to make that claim is just as illogical as the assertion he seeks to refute.

[dunstable]

I disagree with your interpretation of these stats (this post and the one above it). Many more muslims EXIT prison than went in as such. Same for the other religions.

Are you saying that the Federal Bureau of Prisons took the poll of prisoners' religions as the prisoners were leaving the prison at the ends of their sentences rather than when they first arrived? If so, you may have a point, but I would have thought it more likely that prisoners were asked for their religion on arrival.

[NoIDidn't]

that lack of religion is the cause of crime.

 

I don't agree that lack of religion is the cause of crime. Ignorance, greed, and poverty are the main precursors to people becoming criminals. Not their belief or lack of belief in a diety.

[NoIDidn't]

Are you saying that the Federal Bureau of Prisons took the poll of prisoners' religions as the prisoners were leaving the prison at the ends of their sentences rather than when they first arrived? If so, you may have a point, but I would have thought it more likely that prisoners were asked for their religion on arrival.

 

I think its more likely that these surveys are done periodically - not just to new admissions - to ascertain the spiritual needs of the prisoners.

 

Prisoners switch religious affiliations frequently. One may have entered a Christian, but exitted a Muslim or an atheist and vice versa.

[dunstable]

While I agree with that' date=' it is equally wrong to attempt to claim that religious belief is somehow relevant in actual criminals. Its not. For an atheist to make that claim is just as illogical as the assertion he seeks to refute.[/quote']

NID, If you reread what I said, you will see that I did not claim that religion causes crime. The statistics I presented showed no correlation between religion (or lack of it) and crime. There is nothing in these data to prove the superiority of religious over non religious moral values -- it appears the religious and the non-religious are equally likely to commit crimes.