Athiests, where do you get your moral values?

[Trialbyfire]

I'm not sure what you mean by "barking down the wrong alley"

 

Nonetheless, great insight.

 

I've came across a situation where some family and friends have asked me to join a business.

 

I don't agree with some of the practices in the business, however, everything is legal, I just believe that some of the methods to make sales are misleading and predatory.

 

Maybe I should find a business ethics forum eh?

 

I've heard "business ethics" is an oxy moron.

There's a business section on LS. That's where I would have posted something more specific. Reliant on the degree of predatory practices, it's unlikely religion falls into play. If the degree is high enough, then I guess greed would factor into it. On the otherhand, if the degree is high enough, then fair practice law should be the primary driver.

 

Both religion and law are social constructs.

[dunstable]

I've came across a situation where some family and friends have asked me to join a business.

 

I don't agree with some of the practices in the business, however, everything is legal, I just believe that some of the methods to make sales are misleading and predatory.

A further point to consider (apart from your own ethical comfort) is if they are predatory to customers, how do they treat each other (their business partners)? If the business becomes very successful (or gets into financial trouble), I'll bet they will turn on each other, each wanting to cheat their way into the biggest profit (or the smallest loss).

[LucreziaBorgia]

I'm not religious at all and I don't believe in any particular god. I see all gods as reflections of the human need to believe in a higher power. All are equal in my eyes. So... religious? No. Spiritual-yes. I have read and researched a lot of belief systems over my lifetime and have been able to form my own.

[dunstable]

I'm not religious at all and I don't believe in any particular god. I see all gods as reflections of the human need to believe in a higher power.

 

I wonder what you (personally) mean by a higher power?

[alphamale]

anyway, Atheists, where do you get your moral values/judgements and how do you decipher whats "wrong"?

we get them from our parents, our upbringing and from educating ourselves

[LucreziaBorgia]

I wonder what you (personally) mean by a higher power?

 

I meant it in the general sense of Jean Paul Sartre's "God- shaped hole” - the need for humans in general to look to something higher than themselves to make sense of their world.

 

Me personally? I see a higher power as the thing inside myself (the super-ego, I guess) that I can sense but can't rationalize: the direction that I send entreaties, etc. Some would call it 'praying' but I see it as more of a guided meditation to make the things that I want to happen in my life happen for me. The first step to getting what you want out of life is to convince yourself to do the necessary things in order to get them - and that means you have to get right down to the subconscious and start from there.

[Trialbyfire]

I meant it in the general sense of Jean Paul Sartre's "God- shaped hole” - the need for humans in general to look to something higher than themselves to make sense of their world.

 

Me personally? I see a higher power as the thing inside myself (the super-ego, I guess) that I can sense but can't rationalize: the direction that I send entreaties, etc. Some would call it 'praying' but I see it as more of a guided meditation to make the things that I want to happen in my life happen for me. The first step to getting what you want out of life is to convince yourself to do the necessary things in order to get them - and that means you have to get right down to the subconscious and start from there.

Hahaha...your post just made me laugh at myself!!!

 

By rote living based on organized religion is no different than by rote living by your personal code, albeit one is more genuine to self.

[dunstable]

I meant it in the general sense of Jean Paul Sartre's "God- shaped hole” - the need for humans in general to look to something higher than themselves to make sense of their world.

 

Me personally? I see a higher power as the thing inside myself (the super-ego, I guess) that I can sense but can't rationalize: the direction that I send entreaties, etc. Some would call it 'praying' but I see it as more of a guided meditation to make the things that I want to happen in my life happen for me. The first step to getting what you want out of life is to convince yourself to do the necessary things in order to get them - and that means you have to get right down to the subconscious and start from there.

I totally respect that. Your view is personal and private and whether it coincides or not with my view, or anyone else's view, does not matter at all, IMO. You are exercising autonomy of thought - I think that is admirable.

[dunstable]

By rote living based on organized religion is no different than by rote living by your personal code, albeit one is more genuine to self.

I think there is a huge difference - one is subservience and the other is autonomy.

[Trialbyfire]

I think there is a huge difference - one is subservience and the other is autonomy.

Living by dogmata is just that, living by dogmata. Neither you, or spiritual leaders, are infallible.

[dunstable]

Living by dogmata is just that, living by dogmata. Neither you, or spiritual leaders, are infallible.

Agreed. But it seems you are accusing LB of living by dogmata whereas it seems to me that LB is living on the basis of personal analysis - total opposite of dogmata.

[Trialbyfire]

Agreed. But it seems you are accusing LB of living by dogmata whereas it seems to me that LB is living on the basis of personal analysis - total opposite of dogmata.

Reread what I wrote. I was laughing at myself...

 

But...I will generalize the following, to all of us "free thinkers".

 

Let's take "thou shalt not kill". How many free thinkers believe this? And where did it originally come from? It came from...law...which came from organized religion!

 

As well, most of us are omnivorous. So what's so special about mankind?

 

That's just one example of the irony. An irony within myself I can laugh at. Can you?

[LucreziaBorgia]

I live by a personal code, but I by no means lock myself into it to the point where I am compelled to follow it for the sake of following it. Every experience in my life brings with it something unique that calls for different actions and reactions.

[Trialbyfire]

I live by a personal code, but I by no means lock myself into it to the point where I am compelled to follow it for the sake of following it. Every experience in my life brings with it something unique that calls for different actions and reactions.

Is there a constant at the core of all the different actions and reactions?

[dunstable]

Let's take "thou shalt not kill". How many free thinkers believe this? And where did it originally come from? It came from...law...which came from organized religion!

What is your point? Are you saying that without organized religion, we would have a license to kill? If so, I totally disagree. I would argue that restraint in this respect is instinctive - bred into us over hundreds of thousands or millions of years of evolution, because unrestrained killing is bad for the propagation of the genes of the individual.

[westernxer]

Is there a constant at the core of all the different actions and reactions?

 

Memory, conscious and subconscious.

[Trialbyfire]

What is your point? Are you saying that without organized religion, we would have a license to kill? If so, I totally disagree. I would argue that restraint in this respect is instinctive - bred into us over hundreds of thousands or millions of years of evolution, because unrestrained killing is bad for the propagation of the genes of the individual.

Since the gene pool is over 6 billion, do you still believe that it drives you not to kill? Even without foreknowledge of the global population, do you believe that's the sole reason why you don't kill?

[LucreziaBorgia]

Memory, conscious and subconscious.

 

What he said.

[Trialbyfire]

Memory, conscious and subconscious.

Go deeper than that.

[westernxer]

Go deeper than that.

 

Force majeure? LOL

[dunstable]

As well, most of us are omnivorous. So what's so special about mankind?

It's a fact that mankind is capable of digesting flesh as well as vegetable matter. But one special characteristic of mankind is the ability to debate whether consumption of flesh is ethical. Also, with advances in technology, we are not forced to eat flesh to survive but can manage very well on a vegan diet (at least in the more affluent parts of the world). So nowadays, in more affluent places at least, people can make a personal ethical decision over whether consumption of flesh is right or wrong.

[Trialbyfire]

Force majeure? LOL

Haha...nope!

 

How about self-interest? So...what makes "us" so special, that our decisions are driven by self-preservation and interest?

 

You have to admit that self-preservation and self-interest, are a form of self-created dogma...thus, we're ALL living by rote.

[Trialbyfire]

It's a fact that mankind is capable of digesting flesh as well as vegetable matter. But one special characteristic of mankind is the ability to debate whether consumption of flesh is ethical. Also, with advances in technology, we are not forced to eat flesh to survive but can manage very well on a vegan diet (at least in the more affluent parts of the world). So nowadays, in more affluent places at least, people can make a personal ethical decision over whether consumption of flesh is right or wrong.

I'm not talking about cannabalism since spread of disease is the originating reason for not partaking. I'm talking about "thou shalt not kill" other men. What is so very special about mankind, that we shouldn't be weeded out, allowing evolution of the brightest and strongest, to continue?

[dunstable]

Since the gene pool is over 6 billion, do you still believe that it drives you not to kill? Even without foreknowledge of the global population, do you believe that's the sole reason why you don't kill?

I think restraint over killing other human beings is instinctive - if we all went about killing each other at every opportunity, our species would have died out.

 

Not sure what your point is about the size of the gene pool. Do you mean it is so large there must be fundamental differences? Remember that every person alive today has common ancestry round about 60,000 -200,000 years back as shown by lineage studies of the Y-chromosome and the mitochondrial DNA.

 

We don't have the same restraint over killing non-human animals because they cannot retaliate. Hence restraint in that respect is probably mainly an ethical decision rather than an instinct.

[Trialbyfire]

I think restraint over killing other human beings is instinctive - if we all went about killing each other at every opportunity, our species would have died out.

 

Not sure what your point is about the size of the gene pool. Do you mean it is so large there must be fundamental differences? Remember that every person alive today has common ancestry round about 60,000 -200,000 years back as shown by lineage studies of the Y-chromosome and the mitochondrial DNA.

 

We don't have the same restraint over killing non-human animals because they cannot retaliate. Hence restraint in that respect is probably mainly an ethical decision rather than an instinct.

Okay, I'm calling you out for the bolded phrase. Prove it.

 

You've managed to avoid answering all my direct questions. They were specifically targeted to you, not the entire human species. In essence, what drives you. Now go back and answer my questions.