Men and Women and Porn and Strip Clubs

[Jersey Shortie]

I really haven't seen that argument made very often, despite my participation in multiple threads on the subject. Regardless, my question/point still stands. You are accusing those who DO use this argument of being disingenuous because the truth is they really *do* want to incorporate things they've seen in porn into their reality. My question, then, is what things is it that, generally, they really do want to incorporate into their own reality despite their denials, and why is that bad.

 

You can rephrase your original question anyway you want but i am still going to give you the same response.

 

You speak of "porn" as though everything is Max Hardcore.

 

He's a scumbag, and his "work" is pathetic and unworthy of consumption, but mainstream porn is not Max Hardcore.

 

I think most porn today is hardcore and mainstream. I think most porn, if we are all honest with ourselves, can fully see the debasement of the female gender.

 

 

Sure it does. But that doesn't describe the average porn user, not even close.

 

How do you know it doesn't? We don't live in a time where men might be looking at Playboy once a month. We live in a time where men can look at it everyday, and see the wildest things they ever imagined. What is the average porn user now-a-days? A man that views porn once a day and that's considered "average". You forget to factor in how availibilty has greatly altered what is "average" today. You forget about all the young boys out there taking in images that their fathers before them never had access too.

 

 

 

 

Not from the (admitedlly limited) porn that I watch. You really, really need to define exactly what you mean by "porn".

 

I think we all have a general idea about what porn is.

 

 

 

That's a whole different conversation, as it is my belief that women ARE more like men when it comes to sex than our collective experience would tend to indicate...

 

In some ways, sure. Women like sex just as much as men. But in other ways, not so much. Women don't get off on seeing random 18 year old penises and fake pecks while the man is called over sexualized names.

 

 

..but that we as a society TEACH them to suppress that because "good girls don't". I'm happy to go down that road if you like, but as I said it's an entirely different train of thought.

 

And what is porn but that narrow ideal about what makes a "good girl" and what makes a "bad one". Since men themselves seperate the two. Porn is a perfect suppression of the point you just illustrated.

 

 

Given all this, I stay away from porn because it does make many women feel very jealous and insecure. I don't want to get into it now and then be stuck with a porn habit if/when I get married. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for my future spouse. I don't think I have a particularly addictive personality, but I know it's been quite difficult for me to stay away from porn. I challenge the men on this site who claim they could stop to do so for a while and prove to themselves they really can, if it's not such a big deal.

 

Scott, what lead you to the choices you made concerning porn and women?

 

It's really refreashing to see that there are guys like you out there.

[AAlike]

 

Given all this, I stay away from porn because it does make many women feel very jealous and insecure. I don't want to get into it now and then be stuck with a porn habit if/when I get married. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for my future spouse. I don't think I have a particularly addictive personality, but I know it's been quite difficult for me to stay away from porn. I challenge the men on this site who claim they could stop to do so for a while and prove to themselves they really can, if it's not such a big deal.

 

Scott

 

wow - maybe porn plays a bigger role in people's lives than it does mine.

 

I guess if I was so into it that I was worried about it wrecking my future marriage, then yeah, I'd probably chill with it as well! for me, it doesn't really play a role beyond "hey, I'm horny, I do not have actual sex available to me at the moment, therefore this might be a nice masturbation accelerator". and that's it. Now that I'm not single, I think that I've watched porn MAYBE three times in the last six months, and that was only when either me or my girl were on the road and she wasn't available for some phone sex. If I were choosing porn over her, then I can certainly see why that would be confidence-shaking - just as her choosing a vib over me would be for me. god I can't ever imagine doing that though...and I have a feeling that if your guy is choosing porn over you then your bad sex life was the cause and porn is simply the effect, but I could be totally off base here. if you'd had experiences like this, shortie, methinks your problem was the men, not the porn.

 

as for getting 'techniques' from porn - I don't really see what the problem is with that, or how it's any different from getting techniques from talking with friends, reading Cosmo or the sex forum on this site. as for men getting their perception of women from porn - I'm sorry, but I just don't really buy it. I think that most men understand that it is scripted and is simply tailored towards our visual sexuality, much like a suspense thriller is tailored to evoke a certain response, or a comedy is tailored towards a sense of humor.

 

Look, you don't have to convince me that the world is amazingly sexist and racist - it is...and the more that I dabble in the business world, the more that it astounds and sickens me. but women have been subjugated and discriminated against long before Vivid Video became popular. I'm not saying that porn is this thing that's "worth fighting for" - I'm saying that you're attributing all of this importance to it that I really don't think is there.

[mr.dream merchant]

I just got off to some porn. My GF's at work. Jeaaaaaaaaah.

[carhill]

LOL, I went NC with my Usenet subscription. Giving myself two months to detox on all those great fetishes. Gotta remain irritated so the D proceeds in an amicable fashion

 

Still no interest in strip clubs. Check with me again in the next life...

[You'reasian]

When you are young the various activities of the opposite sex are an endless sort of wonderment, you hang on everything they say or do, totally spell bound..Then you get older and realize that,lol, you just don't give a fsck as long as whatever they do doesn't cost you or negatively impact on your life..

 

You are advocating 'settling' in this message. Why give in so easily? I'm not saying you have to have a hundred boxes to check - but why not a few?

 

I'm not young, but I'm not old either - so sharing a living space with a woman ain't my first rodeo

 

I'm not interested in another so called monogamous relationship, I think it's not natural and just leads to a ton of BS and lies.

 

Cool. Good luck to you.

[burning 4 revenge]

Strip clubs are a very negative thing over all. They promote mutual exploitation and highlight the lonlieness in the world more than anything else. Society would be better off without them

[sxyNYCcpl]

You can rephrase your original question anyway you want but i am still going to give you the same response.

 

Indeed. The same non-response.

 

I think most porn today is hardcore and mainstream.

 

To be clear, "Max Hardcore" is not a description, it's a brand, and he is indeed guilty of the negative things you ascribe to all porn. Very misogynistic. His product is disgusting, I watched 30 seconds of a single film and had seen more than enough for a lifetime. If you have managed to never see it, consider yourself lucky.

 

To me the word "hardcore" used as a description means the subject of the picture or video has actual visible sex going on.

 

All porn is not hardcore.

 

I think most porn, if we are all honest with ourselves, can fully see the debasement of the female gender.

 

Clearly you think that. You've never presented a shred of evidence to that effect, but clearly you think it.

 

How do you know it doesn't?

 

Because I know a LOT of porn users, both male and female, and your description doesn't suit a single solitary one of them.

 

We don't live in a time where men might be looking at Playboy once a month.

 

Irrelevant. Is Playboy porn, or is it not?

 

We live in a time where men can look at it everyday, and see the wildest things they ever imagined. What is the average porn user now-a-days? A man that views porn once a day and that's considered "average".

 

Got any links to back that up, or are you just inventing statistics?

 

You forget to factor in how availibilty has greatly altered what is "average" today. You forget about all the young boys out there taking in images that their fathers before them never had access too.

 

And that is germane to this discussion how?

 

I think we all have a general idea about what porn is.

 

Clearly not. When you don't differentiate from Max Hardcore, to Vivid Girls, to amateur home videos to nude, artistic stills, you are lumping a lot of very disparate material into a single category and generalizing about the whole lot.

 

But in other ways, not so much.

 

I disagree for the most part, but it's off topic. If you want to start a thread I'll be happy to discuss. Suffice it to say that women have it drilled into their heads almost since birth that "good girls" don't, "bad girls" do and only sluts actually like it. Which is, of course, hogwash, but which causes all kinds of negative problems by the time we reach adulthood.

[soserious1]

You are advocating 'settling' in this message. Why give in so easily? I'm not saying you have to have a hundred boxes to check - but why not a few?

 

I'm not young, but I'm not old either - so sharing a living space with a woman ain't my first rodeo

 

 

I'm not "settling" for anything. I can't think of anything worthwhile to be gained

from living together with somebody.. for either sex. I'm currently preparing to go abroad for 3 months to work, I was able to accept the project without having to check in with anybody at home and ask permission. Not having to worry about another person's needs certainly has it's advantages

[Scottdmw]

wow - maybe porn plays a bigger role in people's lives than it does mine.

 

I guess if I was so into it that I was worried about it wrecking my future marriage, then yeah, I'd probably chill with it as well! for me, it doesn't really play a role beyond "hey, I'm horny, I do not have actual sex available to me at the moment, therefore this might be a nice masturbation accelerator". and that's it.

 

Well, perhaps for you it isn't such a big deal, at least not now. Of course, with alcoholism for example there are well recognized stages of addiction. It is possible that while you can stop now, later it may not be so easy.

 

Here is a link worth looking at:

 

http://www.blogcatalog.com/blogs/quit-porn-addiction/posts/tag/true+stories/

 

There are links to quite a few personal accounts written by men with porn addictions, who feel it significantly negatively impacted their lives. Search for “porn addiction” or anything like that and you'll get thousands more.

 

Then there is this link:

 

http://www.no-porn.com/

 

It's a porn recovery forum, quite similar in format to Loveshack. The very existence of something like this tells me there are a lot of people who consider this a real problem in their lives.

 

With any addiction, there are always people that are more resistant. I don't doubt there are some people that can use cocaine and take it or leave it. But, the thing is you never know for sure which type you are going in. Are you going to be able to get out when you want to, or will your story be more like those I linked to?

 

Here is an article that says that brain imaging studies indicate porn affects the brain in a similar way to hard drugs:

 

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2004/11/65772

 

“Pornography addicts have a more difficult time recovering from their addiction than cocaine addicts, since coke users can get the drug out of their system, but pornographic images stay in the brain forever, Layden said.”

 

 

Issues like that are more of the reason I choose to stay clear.

 

Scott

[You'reasian]

I'm currently preparing to go abroad for 3 months to work, I was able to accept the project without having to check in with anybody at home and ask permission. Not having to worry about another person's needs certainly has it's advantages

 

True. Being single has its advantages

[Scottdmw]

Scott, what lead you to the choices you made concerning porn and women?

 

It's really refreashing to see that there are guys like you out there.

 

 

I think I mentioned most of the reasons above. It's worth saying that I'm a pretty serious Catholic. I'm sure many people will disagree with me on this one, but when the Catholic Church teaches something, I look at it as advice from a source that has helped me in the past. I don't automatically believe it, but I start looking into the issue until I feel like I have a reasonable grasp on all sides. That led me to a lot of the other reasons I went into above.

 

Scott

[Ruby Slippers]

Why isn't freedom enough for guys? If a wide variety of stimulation is important to you, why not avoid the sham of committed relationships?

I have often wondered the same thing. If one woman will never be enough for a man, why does he pretend it will? Why doesn't he just have multiple lovers openly? I think I got the answer from my last boyfriend.

 

When he and I first got together, we were both pretty jaded and burned from previous relationships. We had a history of open and honest conversations, so I brought up the idea of having an open relationship. It was not something I had ever wanted (loyalty comes easily and naturally to me -- I lose all sexual interest in other men when I love someone), but it seemed to me that monogamy was something he struggled with. He considered the idea briefly, then said, "No, I couldn't go for that." I asked why not, and he explained, "I don't want to share you." I think that's what it comes down to.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Then there is this link:

 

http://www.no-porn.com/

 

Really? Seriously?? You post that website as a valid reference?

 

Perhaps you should go read some of the posts available there. Women who can't even bring themselves to spell out the word "sex" instead opting for "s*x" or "s^x".

 

One who was PROUD that her husband of 12 years has NEVER seen her naked. Another that threatened, IMO meaning it, to literally gouge her husbands eyes out for looking at naked pictures. One who threatened to leave her husband because he suggested that she shave! Oh, the horror!

 

Another woman who proclaimed "who needs other sex positions other than missionary!" Women who have no problem whatsoever placing tracker programs on their husbands computers without their knowledge, or feel that they are so superior that they can demand their husbands only use a computer under their direct supervision.

 

Women who are proud of the fact that they are overweight, and don't fit into societies definition of "beautiful".

 

While there are likely exceptions, your average n-p.com user is a grossly overweight, asexual person who wants nothing more than a husband who is completely asexual, and does not request from her, and most certainly not from anyone else, any kind of sexual interaction at all.

 

That site is probably the single most sex-negative website available on the entire Internet, and that you give it credibility says much about you.

[Scottdmw]

Really? Seriously?? You post that website as a valid reference?

 

 

While there are likely exceptions, your average n-p.com user is a grossly overweight, asexual person who wants nothing more than a husband who is completely asexual, and does not request from her, and most certainly not from anyone else, any kind of sexual interaction at all.

 

That site is probably the single most sex-negative website available on the entire Internet, and that you give it credibility says much about you.

 

I will admit I didn't read any of the posts, and can't right now because ironically my work blocks it as porn. I will do so later and see if there is merit in what you say.

 

My point was that the mere existence of such a site says there are people who _really_ _really_ want to stop looking at porn, and _can't_. There are a lot of similar sites out there. Then there is the other site I posted--stories from men themselves that really wanted to stop and had problems. That is the point I was trying to make.

 

Do your own search on "porn addiction" sometime. There are an awful lot of people out there that really want to stop and simply can't.

 

Why are you attacking the people on no-porn, and me by association?

 

Scott

[sxyNYCcpl]

I will admit I didn't read any of the posts, and can't right now because ironically my work blocks it as porn. I will do so later and see if there is merit in what you say.

 

Have fun with that. I haven't gone there in months, but I have read it for it's humor factor from time to time. Most of the SO's are really, really over the top.

 

Do your own search on "porn addiction" sometime. There are an awful lot of people out there that really want to stop and simply can't.

 

I don't deny that, but that's not the type of person this thread has been about.

 

First, the AMA does not recognize "porn addition" as a legitimate illness. Second, and while I DO concede the fact that some people are indeed compulsive about it, to the point of neglecting their spouses, and other responsibilities in life, as I have pointed out before ANY activity done compulsively can end up being a problem. Third, I am of the opinion that many, if not most men who *self-identify* as porn addicts are not, rather they have been labeled as such by their porn-hating spouses and have for one reason or another bought into the fantasy.

 

It's kind of like seeing a guy who goes to the sports bar with his friends a couple of times a month and has a few beers and declaring him an alcoholic because of it. The SO's of NP are as militant (if not more so) about the topic as JS, and will label their husbands as addicts for but a single incident.

 

For those who have genuine problems, they have my sympathy and well wishes.

 

Why are you attacking the people on no-porn, and me by association?

 

Because I think that site is so over the top sex-negative that it should have no credibility as an outlet for discussion on the topic. When women are proud their husbands have never seen them naked, when they admit to being glad they're overweight so strangers won't "ogle" them, when they threaten divorce over a request for a little grooming, and when they threaten actual violence over pictures their credibility is strained to the breaking point. That group does not deserve credibility, rather they deserve mockery. Especially the "SO's".

 

For God's sake, the fact that many of them can't even bring themselves to type the word "sex" should be enough in and of itself to see where they stand.

 

I didn't consider my words an attack on you, more like the incredulity you would rightly have towards the credibility of someone who linked to a whitepaper written by Max Hardcore about the joys of porn.

 

Sometimes the "problem" isn't really the "problem", sometimes it lies in one's attitude about it.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Oh, just one more example of the mind-set that you'll see over at n-p that I just remembered.

 

A woman won a trip to Hawaii, and left her husband at home, opting to take a friend instead. Her reason? She did not want her husband exposed to the women in bikinis that such a trip would no doubt include. Good, healthy, sex-positive attitudes from them!

[Scottdmw]

It's kind of like seeing a guy who goes to the sports bar with his friends a couple of times a month and has a few beers and declaring him an alcoholic because of it. The SO's of NP are as militant (if not more so) about the topic as JS, and will label their husbands as addicts for but a single incident.

 

For those who have genuine problems, they have my sympathy and well wishes.

 

I think our main disagreement is how many men have a real problem versus how many whose only problem is their SO is very upset. It seems like you think the latter is much more prevalent. I'm not so sure but it's really hard to prove conclusively one way or the other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because I think that site is so over the top sex-negative that it should have no credibility as an outlet for discussion on the topic. When women are proud their husbands have never seen them naked, when they admit to being glad they're overweight so strangers won't "ogle" them, when they threaten divorce over a request for a little grooming, and when they threaten actual violence over pictures their credibility is strained to the breaking point. That group does not deserve credibility, rather they deserve mockery. Especially the "SO's".

 

For God's sake, the fact that many of them can't even bring themselves to type the word "sex" should be enough in and of itself to see where they stand.

 

I spent more time looking through the no-porn forum, and I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of it. I looked at a couple of dozen posts, and I didn't find a single one along the lines of what you're talking about. I found a bunch of guys that seemed like they really wanted to stop looking at porn and couldn't, and a bunch of women who were really upset about their guys looking at porn but who didn't seem to have the kind of issues you describe. Maybe you could provide some direct links.

 

I mean, if you search enough you can find wackos in any forum. It doesn't mean that the majority of people in the forum are the same way.

 

 

This guy for example sounds like he has a lot of sex with his girlfriend, when he can stay away from the porn anyway.

 

http://npsupport.net/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9058

 

“The woman I'm with now is the woman I have ALWAYS dreamed about, and in the beginning, the love, passion, and sex was really amazing. But of course, as I gradually got back into looking at porn, the desire to be with my wonderful woman physically tapered off to nothing, and now we never have sex.”

 

 

This guy sounds like he is in a pretty bad way:

 

http://npsupport.net/community/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8973

 

“The WORST moments are when I actively try to STOP looking at porn and masturbating. I become EXTEMELY preoccupied with thoughts about the behavior and feel an EXTREME anxiety and despair about it.”

 

 

This woman sure sounds like she's trying to solve the sex problem:

 

http://npsupport.net/community/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8851

 

“I'd like to get back to a healthy sex life but I seem to be making this difficult as I'm constantly paranoid that he doesn't find me attractive. I will start arguements if we haven't been to bed for a few days even if there is valid reason. As a result I think I'm making the problem worse. It feels so awkward when we are in bed and even when he tries I end up getting angry and blaming him if he struggles to get an erection.”

 

 

Scott

[sxyNYCcpl]

It seems like you think the latter is much more prevalent. I'm not so sure but it's really hard to prove conclusively one way or the other.

 

You are right, twice. I do in fact believe that most cases of "porn addiction" are merely overreactions by spouses with unrealistic expectations. You are also right that it's hard to prove one way or the other.

 

I found a bunch of guys that seemed like they really wanted to stop looking at porn and couldn't, and a bunch of women who were really upset about their guys looking at porn but who didn't seem to have the kind of issues you describe. Maybe you could provide some direct links.

 

As I said, I haven't been there in months, and no I do not have any links nor do I care to search them. Most of the comments I reported came from the SO forum, look there and you'll find what I'm talking about.

 

Here's a few choice dittys:

 

I shut the door when I change, I sleep in my clothes, I don't feel like shaving *there* anymore, I have trouble taking showers because I don't like to be naked for any extended period of time...you get the idea. I feel dirty and nasty and soiled.

Even throughout the p use, he has never rejected me in favor of p or anything like that. All I have to do is tell him and he's right there with me. That's not the issue. The issue is that I don't WANT to be with him in that way. I feel so gross and used.

My guy had more than one threesome before he met me. Granted, it was maybe 15-20 years ago, horny, drunk teenager things, I would assume, but it still makes me rather nauseated when I think about it. He's never asked it of me, probably knows better than to try. It's so gross. The whole concept of it turns sex from an intimate experience into...I don't know, something even less than animalistic. A crass perversion of biological functions.

Are you sensing a theme here? Dirty and nasty and soiled and gross and used and nauseated and gross (again) and a crass perversion. Real sex-positive attitudes amongst the inhabitants of that there message board.

 

This guy for example sounds like he has a lot of sex with his girlfriend, when he can stay away from the porn anyway.

 

As I have said, I fully recognize that some have compulsive issues with it. It is not germane to this discussion. This discussion is about "normal people".

 

“The WORST moments are when I actively try to STOP looking at porn and masturbating. I become EXTEMELY preoccupied with thoughts about the behavior and feel an EXTREME anxiety and despair about it.”

 

Might that say more about what he's been taught is SUPPOSED TO BE acceptable behavior than his own issues? Not sayin it is, just sayin.

 

“I'd like to get back to a healthy sex life but I seem to be making this difficult as I'm constantly paranoid that he doesn't find me attractive. I will start arguements if we haven't been to bed for a few days even if there is valid reason. As a result I think I'm making the problem worse. It feels so awkward when we are in bed and even when he tries I end up getting angry and blaming him if he struggles to get an erection.”

 

Interesting choice for a sample. We have here a woman who admits to severe insecurity, starting fights for no reason, and getting angry if her hubby can't get it up. Because anger is always conducive to getting Mr. Happy to come out to play.

 

All of that because he looks at pictures. Nice.

[Jersey Shortie]

Are you sensing a theme here? Dirty and nasty and soiled and gross and used and nauseated and gross (again) and a crass perversion. Real sex-positive attitudes amongst the inhabitants of that there message board.

 

I think they have issues and need to resolve them We all have issues, even yourself.

 

I don't think they are saying sex is dirty. I think they are saying they feel used and dirty because of the porn that is part of the partner's life. I know for me when I know that my partner looked at porn, I don't much feel like being with him. I end of feeling like I am just another *thing* to get off with. If he can so easily turn between me and the porn, that makes me just another thing for him to pleasure himself with. No self control, and little respect for women in a general sense. That's actually a very normal feeling for women that struggle with their partners porn use.

 

 

 

 

Interesting choice for a sample. We have here a woman who admits to severe insecurity, starting fights for no reason, and getting angry if her hubby can't get it up. Because anger is always conducive to getting Mr. Happy to come out to play.

 

All of that because he looks at pictures. Nice.

 

You clearly you lack any sympathy with what a woman can go through from her perspective. It's clearly not for *no* reason. Is she not just as an important part of the relationship as her partner? Don't her feelings count? Or should it only be the man's feelings and desires that count?Those have merit and hers don't?

 

Do you know what it's like as a woman to know that a man can get a boner quicker then a a 13 year old boy from looking at 18 year old girls with implants in school girl outfits but that YOU, his real life partner doesn't get that same kind of sexual resposne from him? It's a HUGE blow to the ego and confidence because the message is "those girls turn him on, you don't". How is a woman suppose to feel sexual and attractive and vunerable in that type of situation? If his "pictures" can get a response from him but his real life partner can't, that is a HUGE problem. You're lack of trying to understand where women are coming from, their own sexuality and needs is apparent.

[AAlike]

 

You clearly you lack any sympathy with what a woman can go through from her perspective. It's clearly not for *no* reason. Is she not just as an important part of the relationship as her partner? Don't her feelings count? Or should it only be the man's feelings and desires that count?Those have merit and hers don't?

 

 

it's difficult to "debate" with you when anytime anyone disagrees with you you slander them as cold-hearted and sexist. I will say it again - there is no gender battle going on in anyone's head but yours.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that the woman's feelings "don't matter" - rather they are trying to illustrate to you that the notion that just because, yes, I can get turned on at the mere sight of nudity or sex, just as I have been able to do for nearly 20 years, and well before I met my GF, does not put mean that she is on a "level playing field" with the rest of womanhood. that is such a ridiculous notion to the point where I can't even believe that I have to explain it to you.

 

Those of you who question man's ability to be monogamous because "anyone can turn them on" are completely and utterly missing the point. I am monogamous because sex with my GF, as well as everything else with my GF, is unlike sex with anyone else - and although plenty of other women could "give me a boner," they won't give me everything else that she gives me, sexually or otherwise.

 

the men on here have not argued that porn is so "vital" to them (other than the special "addict" cases that were being discussed - and as someone whose dad and brother are both addicts, I know that addict-related tales have no place in a rational discussion), rather they have just tried to explain that it shouldn't be so threatening to you. and anytime anyone tries to tell you that you should not be so threatened by porn, you seem to twist it into "porn is a fundamental part of male existence" - I just don't see it that way. The ability to be easily visually stimulated, however, IS a fundamental part of male sexuaility - and I feel as if this threatens you and that is why that I implied that your issues are issues with fundamental parts of the male sexuality.

 

Do you know what it's like as a woman to know that a man can get a boner quicker then a a 13 year old boy from looking at 18 year old girls with implants in school girl outfits but that YOU, his real life partner doesn't get that same kind of sexual resposne from him?

It's a HUGE blow to the ego and confidence because the message is "those girls turn him on, you don't". How is a woman suppose to feel sexual and attractive and vunerable in that type of situation? If his "pictures" can get a response from him but his real life partner can't, that is a HUGE problem. You're lack of trying to understand where women are coming from, their own sexuality and needs is apparent.

 

Look, I will be the first person to agree that A) that sucks and B) you are certainly correct that men do not as a general rule understand female sexuality very well either. It took me way too long to realize how much progress I could make in our relationship both sexually and overall by just taking time out every day to tell her she looked pretty, even if she looked the exact same as yesterday.

 

I definitely agree with you that in the situation described above you are being disrespected and would never imply that you should ignore it - and in fact I have said repeatedly in my posts that if it ever gets to the point where one partner is choosing strip clubs or porn over their SO then yes, that is a problematic situation and relationship and should not be tolerated.

 

However, and I hate to break this to you - I think that the cause in this scenario was most likely a subpar sexual connection, and that the porn was merely the effect. I mean, obviously if your partner is choosing anything over having sex with you, or "fantasy over reality" as it were, then I can completely see how that is confidence-shattering and should not be tolerated.

 

But it seems that you think that extremes here are the only two examples - that a guy must either abstain from porn, or he will be constantly streaming on a daily basis while his confidence-stripped girl cries herself to sleep - and I just don't think that's reality.

[sxyNYCcpl]

I don't think they are saying sex is dirty. I think they are saying they feel used and dirty because of the porn that is part of the partner's life.

 

How could you possibly draw that conclusion? You cannot possibly call any sexual experience dirty, nasty, gross, or a crass perversion unless somewhere, deep inside of you, you believe that sex itself is all of those things. It's understandable that many women feel like that, after all that is the message that their parents, teachers, peers, and society at large has been drumming into their heads since they were old enough to understand language, nonetheless it doesn't change the fact that those teachings are just plain wrong.

 

There is NOTHING that two lovers could do that should ever be labeled dirty or gross. And while I concede that the idea of sexuality involving more than 2 people isn't for everyone, it most certainly is NOT a crass perversion. For too many generations, we've taught people wrong, and those teachings are, for the most part, what lead to arguments such as this.

 

I know for me when I know that my partner looked at porn, I don't much feel like being with him. I end of feeling like I am just another *thing* to get off with. If he can so easily turn between me and the porn, that makes me just another thing for him to pleasure himself with.

 

YOU are the source of the problem. "I don't much feel..." "I end up feeling..." "that makes me..."

 

The problem isn't the problem, the problem is your attitude about the problem. Your reaction to outside stimuli, regardless of what it is, is your responsibility.

 

No self control, and little respect for women in a general sense. That's actually a very normal feeling for women that struggle with their partners porn use.

 

You keep returning to this theme of "self control" over and over. If only men could control their instincts, everything would be fine.

 

OK.

 

Why?

 

If you told a lover, "Honey, I don't like milk, and I demand that you never drink it, nor have it in the house." that would be ridiculous. Now, if you said, "Honey, look, I'm deathly allergic to milk, and even as little as kissing you 6 hours after you've had some could send me to the hospital, or worse.", well that's a whole different thing.

 

Likewise, if your (or anyone else's for that matter) objection to porn was "Honey, I believe in very strict sexual morality, and that includes severe restrictions on the sex acts I am willing to participate in and when, as well as complete abstinence from any kind of sexual imagery in my (and my partners) life.", well that's quite different than "Men should have self control because it bothers me."

 

IF that is the case, you have no business being with a person who doesn't share your moral code, because if you are, sooner or later porn is going to be the least of your concerns.

 

You clearly you lack any sympathy with what a woman can go through from her perspective.

 

For the most part, that is true. I view any woman who has problems with CASUAL porn use as either overly controlling, overly sensitive, lacking self confidence, or overly in favor of the "good girls don't" line of thinking. Often it's a combination of the above.

 

For truly compulsive users, whose use is causing problems in the relationship and beyond, that is a whole different story. Of course, even in this case it's possible that the compulsive use of porn (or anything else) is more of a symptom than a cause, but either way it's a problem.

 

It's clearly not for *no* reason. Is she not just as an important part of the relationship as her partner? Don't her feelings count? Or should it only be the man's feelings and desires that count?Those have merit and hers don't?

 

In a healthy relationship, both partners are equal, so of course her feelings count. They must be reasonable, however, and objecting to casual porn use, much like objecting to drinking milk JUST BECAUSE, is not.

 

Do you know what it's like as a woman to know that a man can get a boner quicker then a a 13 year old boy from looking at 18 year old girls with implants in school girl outfits but that YOU, his real life partner doesn't get that same kind of sexual resposne from him?

 

This scenario does not describe casual use, it describes a problem. The porn could be the problem, or it could be a symptom. Appearances do count, and if when Guy A married Girl B she was a 110 lb size 2, and has since ballooned to a 300 lb size 20, who hasn't shaved below the neck in a decade, showers but twice a week, and is losing her teeth methinks the porn is not the problem. Granted, a bit over the top of an example, but merely to point out that sometimes the porn is a symptom of other relationship issues.

 

Oh, and not all porn is 18 yo girls with implants in school girl outfits. I'd venture so far to say that most isn't.

 

It's a HUGE blow to the ego and confidence because the message is "those girls turn him on, you don't". How is a woman suppose to feel sexual and attractive and vunerable in that type of situation? If his "pictures" can get a response from him but his real life partner can't, that is a HUGE problem.

 

You are right! However, if someone's partner is not turned on by her, it doesn't matter if he looks at pictures or not. If you don't turn your partner on, you've got a problem, but it ain't his porn use that's causing it.

[sally4sara]

How could you possibly draw that conclusion? You cannot possibly call any sexual experience dirty, nasty, gross, or a crass perversion unless somewhere, deep inside of you, you believe that sex itself is all of those things.

 

No offense to you at all, but this is just as restricting of a standard as the belief that any viewing of porn at all is immoral.

I like sex and am plenty willing to experiment or try new thing, but some sexual acts are just off putting even without trying them. Hell, especially if your hassled untill you give in and try them! If I don't want to give BJs till I vomit or drink urine, it doesn't mean I'm a pent up prude. Different strokes dude. Some people just like what they like and dislike what they dislike.

 

Two girl and a cup ring a bell? Yeah......not all sex is magical, natural, or beautiful.

[sxyNYCcpl]

OK, I almost put a disclaimer in my earlier message that my comment did not apply to potty-play, but because I don't consider that sexual, ultimately I decided it was not necessary. Apparently I was wrong.

 

DISCLAIMER: My comment does not apply to potty-play.

 

Outside of that, I'm not suggesting that we don't all have likes and dislikes, things we love to do, things we'd love to try, and things we refuse. There's a far cry from saying "I don't want to do that" to labeling anyone who does (or the very concept itself) as dirty, nasty, gross, or crass[ly] perverted.

[sally4sara]

OK, I almost put a disclaimer in my earlier message that my comment did not apply to potty-play, but because I don't consider that sexual, ultimately I decided it was not necessary. Apparently I was wrong.

 

DISCLAIMER: My comment does not apply to potty-play.

 

Outside of that, I'm not suggesting that we don't all have likes and dislikes, things we love to do, things we'd love to try, and things we refuse. There's a far cry from saying "I don't want to do that" to labeling anyone who does (or the very concept itself) as dirty, nasty, gross, or crass[ly] perverted.

 

Normally, it wouldn't require a disclaimer. You've posted to the nature of you and your partner's lifestyle of choice and it is outside of the standard social norm. Who am I or anyone else to assume the extent you and your partner delve?

I could be wrong but, you do claim your partner and yourself participate in group sex and swapping. I don't look down on it because I am no saint, but even you must admit these acts are part of a higher risk lifestyle than your average sex life. It is also a life style that *can* lead to jealousy and commitment issues. That means not everyone will want to participate. Some might not even find it healthy for the potential risks and therefore, not even be interested in it. It doesn't mean YOU are wrong for doing it. But that also means others who don't find it appealing are not wrong for their preference either. There are lots of things we can do with our bodies, but it doesn't mean we have to do it all. And not doing it all doesn't mean we have issues about sex.

 

On the note of being able to see how having the swinger life style has its risks; risks that not everyone wishes to take, you must also see how your normal porn viewer can end up having problems. You don't know everyone's situation so you cannot pretend to know the root of the issues taken or refuted about porn viewing by either side of the argument. I don't care much about my partner's use of porn. That doesn't mean it can't become a problem.

Most of the problems I hear from *normal* women (yes it IS usually women who take issue) is after the lust buzz wears off in the relationship, the porn use steps up. Partners goes through some stress on the job or school and doesn't feel amorous; isn't initiating as often. They talk about it and he assures it is just the stress and not a dissatisfaction with her or the relationship. He just isn't up to it and probably won't be till the project, deadline, finals (whatever) is finished. Then two days later she wakes at 3 am to him rubbing one out to "Farmer's Daughters VI" or some such. It doesn't make sense to her cause he said his just wasn't feeling sexy due to stress so why is he self pleasuring? A complex is promptly born at 3:01am the same day.

This might not be something you've dealt with, but can you see how the whole thing can get sticky fast? No pun intended.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Who am I or anyone else to assume the extent you and your partner delve?

 

Well, OK, I guess. But seems a bit of a leap to me to go from consensual non-monogamy to scat play (for the record, EWW!), but whatever. Not to mention the topic du jour is porn in "typical" relationships.

 

I could be wrong but, you do claim your partner and yourself participate in group sex and swapping. I don't look down on it because I am no saint, but even you must admit these acts are part of a higher risk lifestyle than your average sex life.

 

You are not wrong, we do so. As to whether or not it's higher risk, I suppose that depends on how you define "average". If that's defined as long term, truly monogamous marriage (or equivalent) than probably so. If "average" is serial monogamy, going from partner to partner, ala the dating scene I'd say at worst they're roughly equal, at best "The Lifestyle" may be a tick safer as many participants come from former long-term monogamy, and safe-sex practices are pretty close to universal. Only total abstinence is completely risk-free, as many who thought they were in monogamous relationships have found out, unfortunately.

 

It is also a life style that *can* lead to jealousy and commitment issues. That means not everyone will want to participate.

 

ANY lifestyle *can* lead to jealousy and commitment issues. A friend of mine is staring down the barrel of divorce right now because his wife simply cannot stop accusing him of inappropriate behavior and relationships that are nothing more than figments of her imagination. We see irrational jealousy here all the time. For that matter most jealousy is irrational, and that which isn't is irrelevant. If your SO wants to be with someone other than you, the relationship is over anyway.

 

And not doing it all doesn't mean we have issues about sex.

 

I'm not saying they do. My original point that led to our exchange was to point out that women (or men for that matter) who routinely use terms such as gross, disgusting, or perverted to describe pretty mainstream sexual behaviors have a baseline issue with sexuality in general, nothing more.

 

On the note of being able to see how having the swinger life style has its risks; risks that not everyone wishes to take, you must also see how your normal porn viewer can end up having problems.

 

I really don't see it. That's akin to saying the average alcohol user can end up having problems. In a large enough population, for any given substance or activity that has addictive potential, a certain percentage will succumb. Doctors and shrinks have been arguing for decades if it's nature or nurture that leads any given individual down that road, but regardless it's a small percentage that do. If I choose not to drink because I'm worried I may become a drunk, that's my choice. For me to insist that my wife do the same is out of bounds, unless some evidence of past or present actual addiction exists.

 

A complex is promptly born at 3:01am the same day.

 

A single incident does not a trend make. And lets face it, sometimes when one is at a time of great stress or pressure, just being able to rub one out, while possibly selfish, can help deal with the situation. When it becomes a regular occurrence, then you have a problem.