I didn't get a transfer

[Star Gazer]

Cherry: yes, she is young, but the kind of mistakes you dismiss from staff are when they get too drunk at the office holiday party. Beyond that, age is not an excuse for a lack of professionalism. Understand that this wasn't a situation in which she was dressing inappropriately or had a personal hygiene issue that needed to addressed and can improve. This was something for more damaging.

 

I have to respectfully agree with this.

 

How is it damaging, though? She was honest and said it affected her productivity.

 

Do you understand that employers care about their employee's productivity? And that if they're not productive, they aren't worth keeping around?

 

Like TBF said, employers are human, and will allow some room for personal issues. However, that allowance is narrow, and is usually limited to personal issues going on at home (i.e., a sick parent, a divorce, etc.), not personal issues the employee is creating for herself at the workplace.

 

Spookie isn't only affecting her productivity, but the productivity of others as well.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I'm seeing implications that "emotional censorship" is OK, and that's really disturbing to me.

 

On the one hand people say that confessing her crush which hampered her work was a bad thing. On the other people say that just having the crush at all was wrong.

 

I'm not defending Spookie without qualification, but this is just unfair.

 

I don't think anyone's saying having a crush is wrong.

 

But communicating it - under these circumstaces - was unprofessional and far from wise.

[Isolde]

 

 

Do you understand that employers care about their employee's productivity? And that if they're not productive, they aren't worth keeping around?

 

Yes, I do understand that is a serious problem. However, no one knows how productive Spookie has actually been. It sounds like she's been putting in a lot of overtime, from her posts. So if she isn't in fact being unproductive then it becomes an issue of principle--a weak one in my opinion, having a crush is far from lying, cheating, helping the competition etc. In which case I don't think there would be grounds to fire.

[OpenBook]

I'm just pissed at Jack for opening his big fat mouth in the first place. B*stard.

 

I feel for you, Spookie. I'm your age, and I'm also struggling to transition from the intensity of the college years into the "real world." Sometimes I feel like I am expected to be a robot. I haven't done anything inappropriate but sometimes I feel like I just plain show more emotion than everyone else! I've also had a major dry spell. I am not crushing on anyone though... at least not on anyone I see around on a daily basis. And I've become good at hiding my crushes if only because I fear rejection from most guys.

 

Actually, this story has taught me never to mix work and romance, barring extraordinary circumstances, I guess. It's a lesson for all of us--not just you. I don't think anyone means to single you out or make you look stupid.

 

And who among us hasn't been there...

 

You're right though, Isolde, it's better not to wear your heart on your sleeve at work. If you develop a crush at work, DON'T TELL ANYBODY about it!!! At least, not anybody at work. It's none of anyone's business anyway.

[Star Gazer]

In which case I don't think there would be grounds to fire.

 

You have a lot to learn about the working world, Isolde.

 

Unless she's working for the government or union (which require "cause"), simply not liking someone's attitude is adequate grounds to terminate.

 

So admitting that you've been unproductive as a result of unprofessional behavior... do you honestly think there's no basis to let an employee like that go, if a professional, productive replacement exists?

 

This "boo boo" would be enough for me to want to terminate my own assistant.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

 

Cherry: yes, she is young, but the kind of mistakes you dismiss from staff are when they get too drunk at the office holiday party. Beyond that, age is not an excuse for a lack of professionalism. Understand that this wasn't a situation in which she was dressing inappropriately or had a personal hygiene issue that needed to addressed and can improve. This was something for more damaging.

 

My point in saying this was not to dismiss her actions, or to say that she should not be expected to act professionally.

 

My point was to show Spookie that life is LONG and this will be a minor footnote in her history when you look at life in the long run. Right now she is depressed (she started a thread on it) and since this is her only professional job she's had, it is easy to make this experience into a mountain, when in the long run it will only be a molehill. Honestly, many, many of us have made slip-ups in the professional world and we recovered. I graduated college in the mid-90's, during a recession, and I made a big boo-boo at a temp job. I thought that was the end of me. I was seriously depressed about it. Turns out my boss at the job (not the temp agency) said she really valued my work and would be happy to be a reference if I needed it.

 

Does this make sense?

[Star Gazer]

My point in saying this was not to dismiss her actions, or to say that she should not be expected to act professionally.

 

My point was to show Spookie that life is LONG and this will be a minor footnote in her history when you look at life in the long run. Right now she is depressed (she started a thread on it) and since this is her only professional job she's had, it is easy to make this experience into a mountain, when in the long run it will only be a molehill. Honestly, many, many of us have made slip-ups in the professional world and we recovered. I graduated college in the mid-90's, during a recession, and I made a big boo-boo at a temp job. I thought that was the end of me. I was seriously depressed about it. Turns out my boss at the job (not the temp agency) said she really valued my work and would be happy to be a reference if I needed it.

 

Does this make sense?

 

 

I agree with this as well, so long as Spookie makes steps to repair this problem and her professional reputation NOW.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

Absolutly, Star. How she handles this will say a lot about her professionalism and ability to manage herself and difficult situations.

[Alpha Female]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm seeing implications that "emotional censorship" is OK, and that's really disturbing to me.

 

On the one hand people say that confessing her crush which hampered her work was a bad thing. On the other people say that just having the crush at all was wrong.

 

I'm not defending Spookie without qualification, but this is just unfair.

 

No, I think the issue is that many people encouraged her to tell Jack about her crush initially.

 

That was the humanistic/emotional approach, as people felt it would be healthier for her to unburden herself. I think in another situation, say, she felt this way about a friend's brother, etc., I would encourage her to do just this, as in that scenario, it would be the healthier option.

 

I think James and myself, as HR professionals, have provided the business angle, which is that it was not a prudent move. You just can't bring this type of behavior into a professional environment and not expect it be without repercussions and fall out for a career.

[Alpha Female]

This is absolutely not true in MOST jurisdictions in the US.

 

This is why most employers will not go any farther than answering, "Would you hire him/her again?"

 

No, this is true, Star Gazer. A company is well within legal limits to say, "Star Gazer was terminated for embezzlement". If, it were true. They could also say, "Spookie was terminated because of some emotional problems that prevented her from performing her responsibilities."

 

They cannot, however, say, "Star Gazer was terminated because some people thought she was stealing from petty cash, and we couldn't prove it, but she was kind of loud and bothersome anyhow."

 

They could not say, "Spookie was released because she had this unrequited obsessive crush on her boss and requested a transfer, but we thought it best to just remove her entirely because she was too unstable."

 

I said this the first time, and caught a lot of flack. I said that her actions and behavior would be viewed as being emotionally unstable, and this is exactly how her HR department responded.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

AlphaFemale, it's not always what you say, but how you say it. You seem to be quite proud of yourself in saying that you were right. Well, fantastic. But this is someone's life. James says some of the same things you do, but with a more positive, helpful tone towards the OP.

 

You seem to take delight in kicking this particular puppy. Just my opinion.

[Alpha Female]

My point in saying this was not to dismiss her actions, or to say that she should not be expected to act professionally.

 

My point was to show Spookie that life is LONG and this will be a minor footnote in her history when you look at life in the long run. Right now she is depressed (she started a thread on it) and since this is her only professional job she's had, it is easy to make this experience into a mountain, when in the long run it will only be a molehill. Honestly, many, many of us have made slip-ups in the professional world and we recovered. I graduated college in the mid-90's, during a recession, and I made a big boo-boo at a temp job. I thought that was the end of me. I was seriously depressed about it. Turns out my boss at the job (not the temp agency) said she really valued my work and would be happy to be a reference if I needed it.

 

Does this make sense?

 

Yes, I understand your point.

 

But we are in a very different job climate these day, Cherry, and these types of trangressions aren't easily forgotten. Daily I get resumes from people with MBA's who are willing to do entry-level clerical work. It's just so darn competitive and tough out there, that you just can't pull this kind of thing and think life will forgive you.

 

What is concerning is that Spookie has continued to say that she had no regrets for telling Jack, and that is where I'm not sure this will serve as a wake-up call or learning experience. If she works elsewhere, and still feels that her actions are always without consequence, then her professional career will be a very short-lived one. However, if she does feel that it was a mistake, and would do it differently next time, then I agree with you that this will be a molehill and she can have a very bright and productive future ahead.

[Isolde]

I think James and myself, as HR professionals, have provided the business angle, which is that it was not a prudent move. You just can't bring this type of behavior into a professional environment and not expect it be without repercussions and fall out for a career.

 

But many, many people date at work. Let me ask you something. If this were merely a CO-WORKER, would your opinion be different?

 

I'm not saying what Spookie did was the most prudent move. I'm saying that romance in the workplace is pretty common.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

Alpha, it is possible that she says that she does not regret telling Jack in order to save face on this board. She may very well indeed regret telling him.

 

It is true that this is a tough job market and you can't very well walk around expecting the world to bend to you. Sometimes lessons are learned the hard way.

[Isolde]

But many, many people date at work. Let me ask you something. If this were merely a CO-WORKER, would your opinion be different?

 

I'm not saying what Spookie did was the most prudent move. I'm saying that romance in the workplace is pretty common.

 

I mean linear coworker dating, not coworker-to boss dating across the hierarchy. I know Spookie's story is a bit more dramatic than most but she seems to get more flak than other people who bring romance into the workplace on this board.

[Star Gazer]

No, this is true, Star Gazer. A company is well within legal limits to say, "Star Gazer was terminated for embezzlement". If, it were true. They could also say, "Spookie was terminated because of some emotional problems that prevented her from performing her responsibilities."

 

Have you passed the bar exam in your jurisdiction?

 

I'm an employment attorney (litigation, as well as advice and counsel, primarily on the defense/employer side) who defends claims like this every single day. You are, in fact, wrong.

[Star Gazer]

But many, many people date at work. Let me ask you something. If this were merely a CO-WORKER, would your opinion be different?

 

I'm not saying what Spookie did was the most prudent move. I'm saying that romance in the workplace is pretty common.

 

Mere commonality doesn't mean it's appropriate or should be tolerated. There are plenty of common behaviors that are wholly inappropriate in the workplace.

[OpenBook]

Isn't employment law different from state to state? (Why some states are known for attracting, or repelling, businesses from establishing there, for example.)

 

I don't know, I'm just asking. The laws may be different depending on which state you're in.

[Alpha Female]

But many, many people date at work. Let me ask you something. If this were merely a CO-WORKER, would your opinion be different?

 

I'm not saying what Spookie did was the most prudent move. I'm saying that romance in the workplace is pretty common.

 

Agreed, many people do date in the workplace and also agreed that romance in the office is very commonplace these days.

 

But this wasn't a situation of her dating anyone. It has to do with her revealing an unrequited obsession, and telling her Boss that she could no longer do her job effectively because of her crush on him.

 

Do you see the difference?

[Alpha Female]

Alpha, it is possible that she says that she does not regret telling Jack in order to save face on this board. She may very well indeed regret telling him.

 

It is true that this is a tough job market and you can't very well walk around expecting the world to bend to you. Sometimes lessons are learned the hard way.

 

I think most lessons are learned the hard way, unfortunately. But not learning from it is when it becomes problematic.

[Alpha Female]

Isn't employment law different from state to state? (Why some states are known for attracting, or repelling, businesses from establishing there, for example.)

 

I don't know, I'm just asking. The laws may be different depending on which state you're in.

 

They are, and I don't care to debate it with Star Gazer. She doesn't like to be wrong, so I will just let her think she is right and move on.

[Touche]

They are, and I don't care to debate it with Star Gazer. She doesn't like to be wrong, so I will just let her think she is right and move on.

 

Hilarious! Even the other "HR Professional" on here disagreed with you. And I've already told you my background.

 

Some of what you've said is off the mark...at least where I live. It's crazy. And you also keep forgetting that Spook had good reviews/evaluations from her superiors. They'd have zero reason to not give her a good reference.

 

You're disputing what another so-called HR Professional said, an employment lawyer, and someone (me) who has also worked in HR. We're all wrong, and you're right, is that what you're saying?

 

Again, even your fellow professional's experience was the same as mine.

 

Perhaps your company's policies are just unique and they don't practice the usual protocol? Could that be it?

[Alpha Female]

Hilarious! Even the other "HR Professional" on here disagreed with you. And I've already told you my background.

 

Some of what you've said is off the mark...at least where I live. It's crazy. And you also keep forgetting that Spook had good reviews/evaluations from her superiors. They'd have zero reason to not give her a good reference.

 

You're disputing what another so-called HR Professional said, an employment lawyer, and someone (me) who has also worked in HR. We're all wrong, and you're right, is that what you're saying?

 

Again, even your fellow professional's experience was the same as mine.

 

Perhaps your company's policies are just unique and they don't practice the usual protocol? Could that be it?

 

Aren't you the one who encouraged Spookie to confess her crush, and agued with me that her HR department valued her and were going to make the transfer happen? That you said that I was wrong about everything I predicted and that I didnt have a clue? Well, whos prediction came to pass? Yep. I think you have a solid pulse of the industry. So, you can consider yourself correct as well. It's fine with me.

[Touche]

Aren't you the one who encouraged Spookie to confess her crush, and agued with me that her HR department valued her and were going to make the transfer happen? That you said that I was wrong about everything I predicted and that I didnt have a clue? Well, whos prediction came to pass? Yep. I think you have a solid pulse of the industry. So, you can consider yourself correct as well. It's fine with me.

 

I'd have to go back and read it all and I don't feel like doing that now but as I recall, didn't you say they'd fire her? Well that hasn't come to pass. I said they wouldn't fire her, if I recall correctly...and they haven't. So who called what right?

 

I don't think I said they'd give the transfer..spookie said they told her they were giving her the transfer. Maybe they didn't have a spot for her..I don't know.

 

I'd like to hear more about the conversation she had with HR and what Spookie said to them.

 

I still think you're wrong and don't have a clue. And yes, I'm right about what I said.

 

Talk about not admitting when you're wrong!

[spookie]

There is a tiny thing I did forget to mention in my first post, which may change people's reactions. I was incoherently angry and did not think it was important, but I think I should retell the story.

 

What happened with HR was this:

 

Rosa, my HR person, led me to a private room. For a couple of minutes she attempted to small-talk, going so far as to ask me about my apartment, and how I've been settling.

 

Then, she said, "The reason I brought you in here is what we talked about a few weeks ago."

 

I nodded eagerly.

 

"I spoke with (Jack's boss) and (Jack's boss' boss) about everything we talked about, and how you were feeling, and he (Jack's boss' boss) felt that he could not make accommodations right now. He said he was looking to change the structure of the whole business in May or June, and, it's not a guarantee, but he'll look at it again then... but for now, he felt it wasn't a high priority for the business for you to get transfered."

 

I launched into my little rant about how I understood, how I was dealing fine for the time being and didn't expect to be transfered asap but had wanted to let someone know...

 

But she wasn't listening. "And the other reason I wanted to see you, was to kind of give you some coaching. For later on in your career. On how to be more professional."

 

"Yah?" I said, my skin prickling with anticipation of anger.

 

"Think about how you handled this," Rosa said. "If you could go back, would you have done anything differently?"

 

"Nope," I said. "I've gone over this in my head 100 times and I know I made the right choice."

 

"We just feel that instead of going to Jack and letting him know about your feelings for him, if this situation was making you uncomfortable, you should have gone to (Jack's boss) or (Jack's boss' boss).

 

The anger was at the surface now. "Just to set this straight," I said, "I didn't approach Jack from the point of view of telling him my feelings. I approached him as my manager for information about a possible transfer."

 

"Right," she said, disliking me now. "And another thing we were talking about... You know, everyone has these crushes, attractions.... But what happens in a few months when you get over it?"

 

I looked her in the eye, not bothering to mask my hatred of this, my hurt at how they'd turned it around, at how there was no fairness after all. It didn't happen like she'd just told me. Even she knew that... the last time I was in there, she was practically lauding me at how "mature" I'd acted.

 

Which hurt even more. Knowing she wasn't just there to hurt my feelings, but to do her job, to relay (Jack's boss' boss') opinion. I really thought he'd thought higher of me.

 

"I know myself pretty well," I said. "And I know I'm not going to just get over this. But thanks. For the update."

 

Feeling the tears rushing, I got up.

 

"And now for some good news!" she said, showing me to the door.

 

I looked at her, my face impassive.

 

"Your friend Lauren, from the summer (I hated that bitch) is coming back! And she'll be up in your bay!"

 

That was the point at which I wanted to kill myself.

[Star Gazer]

Isn't employment law different from state to state? (Why some states are known for attracting, or repelling, businesses from establishing there, for example.)

 

I don't know, I'm just asking. The laws may be different depending on which state you're in.

 

There are minor differences, mostly related to wage-and-hour issues, not this situation. Most states model their labor and employment-related statutory schemes after Federal law (which obviously covers all 50 states). Thus, general principles involving harassment, discrimination, wrongful termination, contructive discharge, and retaliation apply regardless of what state you're in.

 

Besides, AF and I live in the same state.