desertmoon Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 What does lack of respect have to do with bitterness? :confused:And they aren't angry any longer, they just don't want to be around him. As you said it is their choice. Do you really think that their choice to not be around him is because they do not have residual feelings of anger and bitterness? Strange, most people who have truly forgiven and are truly over the anger and bitterness will grab the chance of reconciliation because life can be short and fleeting....but hey... they are your children.. and it is your life... Link to post Share on other sites
65tr6 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 ..and calling your wife ignorant, stupid and immature in my world is "bad-mouthing" her I am not saying that out of bitterness... Ignorant...lack of knowledge...wisdom on her part.... while she committted adultery. Immature...in her understanding relationships....having an illicit relationship while married to me....Stupid or foolish....her foolish act of adultery All those words I used were related to the act of adultery...Not otherwise. Hope that clarifies. Guess what...I am no saint myself. I was immature...probably still....Working on it though.....Impatient...Was....Improving though. Stupid or foolish...Yes for blindly trusting my wife. Thinking that she was the last person on this planet to have an affair. Scratch that. The thought of her having an affair did not even occur to me. What a stupid idiot I was. Does that change the facts ? ....No it doesnt. Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Wait a minute.... TRAUMA is TRAUMA.....remember YOU have made the statement that there are no gray areas....only black and white...What does it matter then that if a child is traumatized by one act of an adult and not by the another? it Is still TRAUMA. Clearly, being a black and white thinker does not blind one to making distinctions as to the severity of different types of trauma. It is pretty well accepted that certain traumatic events do not cause as much damage as others. I think we know this.:bunny: Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 It doesn't matter what the critics think or the time they take time to post on here... I'm sitting here typing , typing this with 100% belief that Love will find a way! Interested in some oceanfront in AZ, or the Brooklyn Bridge? I can get you a deal.:bunny: Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 well of course, it is easier to love someone perfect....but to love someone utterly flawed...now there's a test. To love someone so deserving is nothing lofty, but to love someone undeserving is sublime , even divine... Isn't the Christian-like? Yeah, but being married to them is no picnic. I'll love from afar( safer). Goebels was , a lovely guy, though.:bunny: Link to post Share on other sites
desertmoon Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Interested in some oceanfront in AZ, or the Brooklyn Bridge? I can get you a deal.:bunny: LOL!!!!!! you are too much...! Link to post Share on other sites
desertmoon Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Clearly, being a black and white thinker does not blind one to making distinctions as to the severity of different types of trauma. It is pretty well accepted that certain traumatic events do not cause as much damage as others. I think we know this.:bunny: I know , I know this. But, if one is a black and white thinker....one has to be consistent...why would it matter to define the blackness and the whiteness of things- or the extenuating or aggravating circumstances? black is black and white is white...those are absolutes.... Link to post Share on other sites
desertmoon Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I am not saying that out of bitterness... Ignorant...lack of knowledge...wisdom on her part.... while she committted adultery. Immature...in her understanding relationships....having an illicit relationship while married to me....Stupid or foolish....her foolish act of adultery All those words I used were related to the act of adultery...Not otherwise. Hope that clarifies. I did not say you were saying those lovely description of your wife out of bitterness. My bitterness comment was in response to what you said about still being bitter to the OM...or something to that effect. Guess what...I am no saint myself. I was immature...probably still....Working on it though.....Impatient...Was....Improving though. Stupid or foolish...Yes for blindly trusting my wife. Thinking that she was the last person on this planet to have an affair. Scratch that. The thought of her having an affair did not even occur to me. What a stupid idiot I was. Oh god....beat yourself up more, will you? Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Not really, DM. Some stuff is just way more wrong than other stuff, it causes more damage. Yet, one is still able to see the minor stuff as wrong. As one of my favorite criminal defense attorneys(Louie T) used to frequently say to judges "your Honor, there are misdemeanors and then there are misdemeanors." Catholic school, right(me ,too. Had two Aunts that were evil nuns((they were , actually, the coolest aunts.) Venial vs mortal. Infidelity is right up there toward the top of the chart. Is there any empirical evidence that True love conquers all? Link to post Share on other sites
desertmoon Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Not really, DM. Some stuff is just way more wrong than other stuff, it causes more damage. Yet, one is still able to see the minor stuff as wrong. As one of my favorite criminal defense attorneys(Louie T) used to frequently say to judges "your Honor, there are misdemeanors and then there are misdemeanors." Catholic school, right(me ,too. Had two Aunts that were evil nuns((they were , actually, the coolest aunts.) Venial vs mortal. Infidelity is right up there toward the top of the chart. Is there any empirical evidence that True love conquers all? Reggie, I am not a black and white thinker. I think some things are gray. Some things are bad and some things are worst...So of course I understand what you are saying. But for those who are "black and white thinkers"---there shoudn't be a need to describe a situation as light black or darker black or light white or darker white---that's a ridiculous notion. Black and white-represent the presence and absence of things...absolutes. Love conquers all?(isn't that a song?) LOL...I don't know. I do not trust emotions. I enjoy some of them but ... I am a pragmatic person. Link to post Share on other sites
bentnotbroken Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Do you really think that their choice to not be around him is because they do not have residual feelings of anger and bitterness? Strange, most people who have truly forgiven and are truly over the anger and bitterness will grab the chance of reconciliation because life can be short and fleeting....but hey... they are your children.. and it is your life... No I don't. I think the lack of respect is the issue. He demands it, they don't think he has earned it. Forgiveness doesn't require that we engage the people who are forgiven. It requires we hold no ill will, no thoughts of revenge, no actions of punishment. That's all. If you can show me where in the Bible that forgiveness requires interaction if a relationship has ended, I would be glad to read it. But there is a scripture( I have to look up the exact one)about shaking the dust off your feet as you leave the village if their actions are contrary to the Word of God. It seems my kids have moved on as I have from the relationship that was killed by Mr. Messy's actions. Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 The thing that strikes me about the different positions on this true love issue , is that those folks that have feelings that acting on attractions(love or whatever) while committed to another, are, actually, the true romantics. They seem to have a greater belief in "true love", the willingness to stick by someone after the initial excitement dies down, a willingness to overcome real obstacles(like mortgages, boredom, bills, fewer opportunities for sex, etc). than those that bolt when the going gets tough. It just seems to me that the folks that cheat have a lower capacity for commitment and that is what defines true love for me. Same with being hurt or bitter. The folks that have been affected so deeply by this, are so affected because of their belief that love is pure. Seems the cheating folks look on love as a much more casual emotion, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites
jwi71 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 bent, i know you are being nice. But this is my fight. I know I am all alone. I can draw strength from others but when all said and done, it is me against everyone else. That is how I see it today. It hurts like hell to be fighting alone. It is even more painful knowing that I cant let my dear and near know what I am going through. I put a false facade in front of them. When I talk to them. 65, this give me GREAT concern. YOU cannot repair your M on your own. Its impossible. You MUST have your W's support. You MUST have the support of your friends. You MUST have the support of your family. And I will say it for the umpteenth time...you "MUST" get professional help. A counselor will expedite recovery of the M or its dissolution, whichever is "appropriate". You CANNOT shoulder this burden on your own and be happy. It leads ultimately to resentment and the "final" breakdown of the M. You need to work on you and the M. Your W needs to work on herself AND the M. A M supported by ONE is NOT a M. I dont like it. Unfortunately that is the path I choose. Last four months have been excruciatingly painful. Sometimes I think it is getting better only to be dragged down for the next several days. There is no question my life has changed forever. Normal ups and downs. For my W and I, it took about 5 or 6 months to see any real progress. I would say if at that time you two are little moved, then you should consider other steps. I do NOT believe in staying in a M that is not happy. I cannot afford to let my friends and family down (yep that is me...thinking about others all the time). There are way too many people who look up to me as their hero. This includes my adorable son. I have to lead my normal life and at the same time recover my marriage. Not an easy task by any means. Then you are setting yourself up to fail. You cannot shoulder the burden alone. It leads to hurt, which becomes anger, which becomes resentment which becomes bitterness. Not a happy path...for you, your W, your friends, your family, your son or anyone else. You NEED your W now more than ever. And true to form...you guys ever start MC? Link to post Share on other sites
jwi71 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 sdc... So, you and your MM are married now? Care to expand on your happy ending and how you two got there? Link to post Share on other sites
2sure Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 True Love...finds a way. I cant argue with that. And I am aware and experienced enough to know that True Love often begins with a divorce. Its true. I have no real issue with that as it is a fact of life. The problem is that when the path to True Love means that other people get sh*t on for a length of time, as in an affair... True love is a beautiful thing that does not encompass two people laying waste to others, while all the time saying it is for the sake of the children, finances, to not hurt others etc. Like I said, true love often begins with a divorce. Its the relentless pain a long term affair inflicts that tarnishes and ruins the concept of true love. You cant plant a rose in garbage. Link to post Share on other sites
65tr6 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 And I am aware and experienced enough to know that True Love often begins with a divorce. . So most of the folks who are not divorced have not found true love ? Or once you know that you dont have true love then do everything you can to find it....meaning divorce and find it ? The problem is you dont know you are looking for true love...you stumble on it while being married to someone else. Usually results in an affair. I dont think people wake up thinking....It is time for me to look for true love. Oh, by the way, let me divorce my spouse first....(dont worry about the kids, finances, family...they dont mean sh*t because when you are looking for true love everything else pales into insignificance). Like I said, true love often begins with a divorce. I guess when we take our vows (the first one) may be we should put a clause in there....."If this marriage does not result in true love then we should agree on a divorce and seek true love no matter what" Link to post Share on other sites
65tr6 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Like I said, true love often begins with a divorce. . and truER love begins with a second divorce. (sarcasm end). PS: 2sure...i agree with lot of your posts but not on this one. Link to post Share on other sites
2sure Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I think I was not clear. Or ,maybe I truly see things differently. People are in love, get married. Grow apart, find themselves, find out they are not compatible, etc. Divorce. And I realize that when contemplating divorce, thoughts of what it would be like to live with a diferent partner are certainly there. But the divorce should happen FIRST. I think it hurts less and makes more sense to get a divorce and then be open to meeting a new partner. But realistically, sometimes people meet who they would like as their new partner before they are divorced. Right or wrong, it happens. To make the best of a terrible situation, I think the divorce should happen quickly and honestly. In a long term affair, its the back and forth, the secret betrayal, the excuses that tear down lives. People and families can move on after divorce - affairs inflict a special kind of pain. If you have met true love, leave your marriage, put the new relationship on hold, and be honest. Own it. Dont go back and forth, dont hide and lie, dont make a lie and fiasco out of the lives you had together. Its just such a cowardly way to behave. I really dont think something as good and beautiful as true love can be built or maintained on that kind of foundation. Link to post Share on other sites
Bleeve Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Yes, ideally. If we were perfect beings, living in a perfect world. You are right, no reason to strive to be a better person when you can always state that when doing something wrong. Yet there are millions of people that would never cheat and do the right thing and leave someone they are unhappy with before hooking up with someone new. I guess they are "perfect", or maybe they just would rather do the right thing, then make excuses why they do the wrong Link to post Share on other sites
65tr6 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I really dont think something as good and beautiful as true love can be built or maintained on that kind of foundation. nicely said. I agree with you there completely. What you are saying/suggesting is ideal but in reality it does not work that way. My opinion. I think there is something exciting conducting affairs behind someone's back, the lies, the deceit that makes them fall really HARD in love with someone else. Something that you cannot have. An affair filled with "breaksups" that bring them closer everytime they decide to call it "quits". Making them think it is really "true" love. A movie style romance. For them "true" love just happened, they were not looking for it. While on the other hand, folks who actually divorce first and then start looking. The dynamics are so different. Now you are under "pressure" to find someone. You are actually looking for true love. Trying to make it work under solid and legitimate foundation. You know how difficult that can get. Link to post Share on other sites
Bleeve Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 True Love...finds a way. I cant argue with that. And I am aware and experienced enough to know that True Love often begins with a divorce. Its true. I have no real issue with that as it is a fact of life. The problem is that when the path to True Love means that other people get sh*t on for a length of time, as in an affair... True love is a beautiful thing that does not encompass two people laying waste to others, while all the time saying it is for the sake of the children, finances, to not hurt others etc. Like I said, true love often begins with a divorce. Its the relentless pain a long term affair inflicts that tarnishes and ruins the concept of true love. You cant plant a rose in garbage. Agreed totally Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I think it is true, that cheating before divorcing inflicts a lot more pain. It leaves the BS hurt and bewildered. It makes co-parenting more difficult due to resentment. I've seen so many examples of folks thinking they've found true love outside a marriage, then waking up a few years down the road with similar dissatisfactions with their new partners/lives. It just makes more sense to exhaust eforts to fix the marriage and, failing that, divorce first. Then, no one feels cheated and the healing is faster. Link to post Share on other sites
65tr6 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 If you have met true love, . I dont think you should be looking for one to begin with if you are in committed relationship. That is where it gets tricky. Whether you work on your marriage first or just leave before you start looking for true love. Link to post Share on other sites
65tr6 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I've seen so many examples of folks thinking they've found true love outside a marriage, then waking up a few years . my point too reggie. I used the term truER to explain this. How many times have you seen folks go right back to their first ex-wife and marry them all over again ? I have seen a few. Link to post Share on other sites
bentnotbroken Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 my point too reggie. I used the term truER to explain this. How many times have you seen folks go right back to their first ex-wife and marry them all over again ? I have seen a few. Me too. A couple in my own family. I found it odd that they would remarry, but they are still together. Still makes me wonder...why they didn't get it the first time. ***shrugs*** Link to post Share on other sites
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