our education system has screwed up priorities!

[Tony T]

"People assume that bad parents are deliberately bad - that's just ridiculous."

 

Yes, it is ridiculous. They're just ignorant people with nothing better to do with their eggs and sperm. They are not bad by any means but that doesn't make the problem any easier to deal with.

[clia]

In my opinion, what we are seeing is the shift our society (speaking for the U.S., since I'm not familiar per se with how things are in Canada) away from taking responsibility for ourselves, and instead looking to someone else to place the blame on for anything and everything. The school system is only a piece of this shift.

 

I'm sure improvements could be made in the school system. I'm sure we could get better teachers. But all of that takes money, and like moimeme said, those same parents who will complain about the poor quality of teachers aren't willing to pay more taxes to enable providing teachers with higher salaries, which would in turn draw more talent toward that profession. Politicians won't lay blame on the parents because they want the parents' votes come election time. If they blame it on the schools/teachers, then the parents can say "Oh great! None of this is MY fault. My work is done." Which is ridiculous.

 

Parents' expectations of teachers are above and beyond what teachers should be doing, at least IMO, and part of this is the influence of politicians and the government who have laid blame on teachers/schools for so long. My mom's a high school teacher, as are some of my friends, and from what they've told me, some of the parents simply refuse to believe that their child is not doing homework or is not showing up for class or is failing every test. They expect my mom (who has 150 students total) to call them each and every time their kid does something unacceptable. (And she does make calls, but to expect her to play "mommy" to 150 students on a daily basis is ridiculous.) The parents can't see that they should be asking their kid "did you do your homework?" or "do you need help with your homework?" or whatever. (And yes, I'm making sweeping generalizations...of course there are parents out there who do this and do a great job.) Then the parents call the principal and complain, and the principal asks the teacher to give the kid a C instead of a D, and the kid passes. You could not pay me a million dollars a year to be a teacher, given what I've seen and heard from my mom and friends. You have no control once some of these parents decide that it is all your fault their kid didn't do his homework or show up for class.

 

The other problem is that the business relationship we see is different than in any other profession. The students aren't paying for the teachers to be there--the parents are. Yet the students are the client, or beneficiary of the services. So the parents have certain expectations of the teachers, since they are paying the taxes, but the students are the ones who in fact receive the services. The relationship between teachers and students is two way. The teachers teach, and the students must show up, do their homework, behave in class, and be willing to learn. Unfortunately, many students don't keep up their end of this bargain, and then the teachers then get the blame. The problem is, when you are the one paying for services, you are likely to be more compliant with what is expected of you. (i.e. if you hire and are paying for an attorney and that attorney needs to see your tax returns for the past 10 years, chances are you will produce them, keeping your end of the bargain. If you hire a consultant to redesign your computer system and the consultant needs the existing code to be able to do their job, chances are you will produce that code and any people within the business that consultant needs to do their job.) Since students aren't paying for the teachers to be there, it seems to be a free pass to be less compliant. (I mean, if you pay for your college education, I'd think the chances of you blowing it off and flunking out are a lot less than if the money is coming out of someone else's pocket.)

 

Anyway...back to the original point. We are turning into a blame shifting society, if we are not there already. I only expect it to get worse, optimist that I am. How to change that? No clue.

[Tony T]

"In my opinion, what we are seeing is the shift our society (speaking for the U.S., since I'm not familiar per se with how things are in Canada) away from taking responsibility for ourselves, and instead looking to someone else to place the blame on for anything and everything."

 

By George, you've got it too!!! Way to go!!! Just a few more people who can understand all this and we can end the discussion. A problem becomes very difficult to solve when the majority of the people seeking solutions are a major part of the problem itself and don't have a clue!

[BlockHead]

A problem becomes very difficult to solve when the majority of the people seeking solutions are a major part of the problem itself and don't have a clue!

A lot of it has to do with denial.

1. Some people believe that if they deny the existence of a problem, that the problem does not exist. This is just wishful thinking.

2. There are others that believe that they don’t have to deal with the problem if they deny its existence. They usually do that because they are too lazy to solve the problem.

 

The American government definitely does not want to deal with problems, especially ones that are long-term. This applies to both major political parties!!!

[Tony T]

"The American government definitely does not want to deal with problems, especially ones that are long-term. This applies to both major political parties!!!"

 

Well, I really don't want the American government raising our children. But it would be nice if prospective parents had to take a battery of tests and the ones who flunked three times would have to be sterilized and given some animals from the zoo to raise in their back yards. You are also quite correct about laziness. I have to think it's laziness that keeps a lot of parents from being more actively involved in the lives of their children. It's just way too easy to give the kids a twenty dollar bill and tell them to get lost.

[yes]

Regarding shifting the blame, I think one needs to keep a balance here. I feel that some of my schooling did me harm instead of good. Sure, it may be that I misused the resources, or I may be plain wrong and it was all great, but I cannot accept all the responsibility for being the way I am - certainly my school and my parents, as well as many other factors, had a huge influence. Similarly, every kid is very influenced by such factors until s/he's old enough to analyze these factors and take responsibility for him/herself.

 

The reason I started this thread is that I wish I learned some things earlier in my life (whoever's fault it is I didn't), and I was trying to think of ways to teach these things to children who're growing up right now. At the same time, I was thinking of things I could've easily lived without. I guess all kids are different though, and what I think I would've liked isn't necessarily right for other kids.

 

-yes

[LadyX]

I've come into this conversation a little late....but I've had continous problems with the so-called "teachers" that my kids have had. Some of them act more immature than my kids do...rolling eyes, replying to the students with smart remarks, etc. Some teachers don't even know the material their teaching, so the students work out of the book, day after day, which is boring. And a few weeks ago, my 13 year old came home and told me that her teacher didn't know that Abe Lincoln wrote the Gettysburg Address! Needless to say, I moved her out of that class. I don't know the answer to the problem....but there is DEFINATELY a problem!

 

 

By the way...my 1st post!

[tabbico]

Gosh, I am an airline transport pilot and did buy my own plane....

 

If anyone is interested, you might enjoy reading works by Jean Lave. She compares our educational system with the "older" system of apprenticeship, where you would learn a skill or a job hands on rather than sitting in a classroom all day. She also talks about, for example, "street math" vs. school math and argues that people, even people who have gone through many years of school, do things like everyday math in ways that were never taught in school! In my opinion, she is a little too far the other way, but I like a lot of her arguments.

 

One of the things I really dislike about schools today are the high stakes testing. I live in Delaware and we have the DSTPs - the Delaware State Testing Program. Now, all the schools in Delaware are teaching the tests since a lot of "accountability" rests on passing these tests. So much for ANY kind of coherent curriculum.

[midori]

Originally posted by LadyX

I've had continous problems with the so-called "teachers" that my kids have had. Some of them act more immature than my kids do...rolling eyes, replying to the students with smart remarks, etc. Some teachers don't even know the material their teaching, so the students work out of the book, day after day, which is boring. And a few weeks ago, my 13 year old came home and told me that her teacher didn't know that Abe Lincoln wrote the Gettysburg Address! Needless to say, I moved her out of that class. I don't know the answer to the problem....but there is DEFINATELY a problem!

 

I agree that the situations you describe are inexcusable. But it's hard to convince an adequate number of intelligent, well-educated people to work for paltry wages, with minimal respect in the larger society, and with ever-increasing expectations from parents who don't feel obliged to raise their children to be well-mannered and respectful. There's no excuse for a bad teacher, but there's also no excuse for communities who expect teachers to be happily underpaid, over-worked, and disrespected.

 

When communities truly value education, they will prepare their children to be educated, and they will sufficiently respect and pay properly trained teachers, so that the field attracts good people who can really do the job. As long as you reside in a community that cannot, or will not, staff its schools with good teachers, you will have to fill the gaps in your child's education. C'est la vie.

[Heidi2]

Yes, I totally agree with all the you have 1st stated...

 

My personal experience between the two: grade school & secondary education is this.

 

Grade school is an institution where all given students, at least in the American society are obliged to go to school. And the reason is this: in order to gain a decent job, you need to have that high school diploma. However, the steps which lead up to earning that diploma.. are VASTLY different, no matter what location you're from. And, quite frankly those whom head off to secondary schooling, such as a college or university seem to suffer the most.. ( at least in my opinion.)

 

When I first started my freshman year @ RU, 2 years ago, and was faced upon many individuals' from all over the world, I will admit that I was quite overwhelmed. I thought.. these people are much smarter than I, what am I doing here?? But, what it all boiled down to was that I wasn't really prepared in my grade schooling for what the college experience would actually entail.

 

Difference between the two::

High school-- showing up is a huge plus; as well as proper behavior, throughout!!!

Colleges--- you don't show up, that's your loss of work, etc. And the work expectances, is much more demanding; along with no excuses permited, no matter what!!!!

 

^^^^^^^^ Above is just my experience between the two.. so don't anyone come on here.. and try thinking that I am for one & not the other, etc.

[Tamed Wildflower]

I haven't read all the posts here and don't have time at the moment, but I would like to post the title of a book I read a little over a year ago.

 

It's called Harmful to Minors: The Perils of Protecting Kids From Sex. It's by a woman named Judith Levine.

 

Mostly, a very reasonable book, and one that reflects the ideas about the ridiculousness of sex education in schools that the first poster in this thread expressed. Generally argues that sex is a positive thing, that people are sexual beings to some degree or another and in some way or another at ALL AGES. (Anyone whose seen their toddler play with his penis, or their grade-schooler express curiosity about bodies should know this.)

 

At some points though, I wanted to roll my eyes at the author's utter denial that pedophilia was a danger. I knew too many kids when I was growing up who were abused, and too many of my fellow young adults who were abused as kids/teens to think that its not at all a danger. But if we had had a culture that would acknowledge the positive side of sex, I think these kids would have had the cultural resources to understand that 1) their own sexual feelings were healthy and not shameful, and the fact that it feels good is no reason to lose your self-respect; and 2) they may have had someone to turn to who would have listened, respected them, and helped them.