our education system has screwed up priorities!

[moimeme]

Parents who wait until their children learn that stuff in public schools ought to have their children taken by social services and placed in decent foster homes with people who are capable of parenting.

 

And these would be? You seem to be living in some dream world where there are thousands of ideal wonderful parents and those who are bad at parenting are few and far between; where there is no mental illness, addictions, or other issues among humans so that bad parenting is an exception rather than a rule.

 

This wasn't even a question when I was in school. Parents taught the basics

 

Oh really? So that must mean that when you were in school, there were no unwanted pregnancies, no bad kids, no arrests, no jailings, no abuse of children or women because ideal parents were bringing up ideal children. I put it to you that you were too young to comprehend what was going on in the world around you; aided by the fact that these issues were hidden. The world wasn't better then at all; parents were definitely not better. My dad had to leave home when he was a boy because his stepmother was beating all the children. Just because people didn't hear about this junk didn't mean it wasn't happening. Some people who do not critically examine their childhood assmptions still gleefully believe that there was some sort of golden age where family life was everything a Norman Rockwell painting portrayed.

 

 

I think Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ted Bundy got their moral training in public schools, by the way.

 

In all of those issues, morality was not a question. Research is showing that people who carry out violent acts are usually brain-damaged and have been abused badly BY THEIR PARENTS.

 

I have said before that I think parents should be licensed but the fact is that people, all people no matter how ill-equipped they may be to conduct their own lives, believe it is their 'right' to procreate and that's how the world will always be.

 

Tony, maybe parents should be perfect. Maybe we all should love each other. Maybe there should be a chicken in every pot. However, that's not how the world is and you, of all people, should know it. I don't know how many people you know grew up with ideal parents and turned out to be ideal human beings. My suspicion is that you are not taking your own assumptions and holding them up to the reality you've experienced. If you did, I think you'd realize that your expectations are far, far, far too unrealistic. The parents you are talking about who are so perfect and ideal and who train their children in all the skills of life are few and far between and they are the exception rather than the rule.

[clia]

There's a lot more to math than just memorizing formulas - there's a world of problem solving, of ways of approaching problems - things that cannot be memorized, but need to be understood.

 

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this for me? Thanks.

 

So i guess my point is - if you're going to teach math, do more than formula monkeying, and since some people don't need it at all, it shouldn't be mandatory.

 

I'm assuming (I hope rightly) that you don't mean to not teach any math at all, ever. After all, adding, subtracting, dividing, and multiplying are skills you need in everyday life. So then at what point do you stop? At my high school only two years of math was required. Some people took pre-algebra and algebra and that was as far as they got. Others went all the way up to calculus. It just depended on their ability and interest. Is that what you mean?

 

I'm struggling a bit with your hatred for "formula monkeying." I remember learning differential equations and we first had to learn the "long way" to do it, and then they taught us the short cut. Is that your preferred method for everything? (Or is that even what you are talking about?) It's hard for me to get, because if you want to know the area of a circle you just need to know PiR squared. It's like that for a lot of things math/science related--you need to at some point memorize the formula. You need to memorize that K is Potassium. Etc... Are you more concerned with the "why" are we doing this?

 

Also, being a teen, it's very hard to consciously work on developing your mind, come on. But if your mind is constantly challenged at school (ATTN: mind NOT memory), you're more likely to developing it.

 

I'd argue that memorization is a good skill to have also. Remember driver's ed? I pretty much started out by memorizing that book to pass the test and figure out what I had to do. Over the years, it's ingrained. I had to memorize all the multiplication tables through 15 in third grade. That's turned out to be a very useful thing to have memorized. I also had to memorize all the countries on all the continents in eighth grade. That, too, has proven useful. I think there are some things that simply have to be memorized. There is no other way. I agree that cramming can be a bad thing because you forget everything. But again, that's the student's fault, not the teacher's.

 

But, given the current memorization-based teaching we have, i feel like memorizing more practical things like nutrition is more useful than chem equations.

 

I think you can memorize this stuff at home, in your spare time. (Of course, I guess the same could be said for chem equations.)

[moimeme]

kids are always running around, even the overweight ones. We don't have to convince them to enjoy playtime....they do it spontaneously. Besides, you can't really teach young kids what exercise is

 

By the time you're twelve, you're not a 'young kid' anymore and certainly not when you're in high school. Yes is talking about high school education and you will never convince me that high school kids are out 'running around' just for fun. However, eating habits and activity habits do become more ingrained through high school; this is the time to keep kids moving. And, IMHO, fitness comes before diet. I think a lot more people are motivated to change their diets because they begin fitness activities than adopt fitness because they are dieting.

[clia]

You say yourself that it falls on deaf ears. So perhaps instead of dropping tons of information on these deaf ears that won't be heard, we should drop things that WILL be heard - sure it's not ideal, but it may be more useful!

 

I'm sure kids would rather take Video Games 101, Make-up 101, Experimental Sex 101, and Beers of the World 101, but I don't think that's the answer to get their attention and force them to learn things in school. We can't start tailoring the cirriculum to more interesting subjects because kids are "bored" with math and science.

[yes]

First of all, I was talking about everything past elementary school - so grade 4 to the end I guess.

 

 

Regarding math, Clia:

Maybe it was bad luck for me, but the way it was taught in my highschool was: you take the exponent, put it in front, subtract one from it and leave that as the new exponent (this to get from 3x^2 to 6x) - i.e. basically symbol manipulation. Nobody talked about what a derivative IS, why we care to calculate it, etc. Same with bio - go memorize all that info about blood. Well - why should I care?

 

What I see as the more valuable side of math is I guess logic. Learning to reason by contradition, for example. Logic isn't domain-specific, but can be applied to nearly any field, and that's why i think it's more valuable and should be taught in schools.

 

Oh, and like I mentioned above, i'm not pushing for extremees - i know SOME memorization is good, but not TOO much of it!

 

 

By the way, everybody: I never claimed to have in mind an ideal schooling system. My original post was trying to point out some problems of the current system, and to suggest some improvements.

 

-yes

[Ryan]

However, eating habits and activity habits do become more ingrained through high school; this is the time to keep kids moving.

 

And that's when it gets a lot harder....damn pig-headed teeny boppers.

 

And, IMHO, fitness comes before diet.

 

?

Dietary habits are part of fitness. Perhaps you meant exercise?

 

In the context of obesity, which is the largest epidemic in the US, proper dietary habits with no exercise can easily prevent it. Even the best exercise program will not be able to counteract a poor diet.

[yes]

Exactly - kids care about video games, beer, etc. so why not tie the academic "boring" subjects to the stuff they care about?? i think studying rollercoasters in physics class is great, for e.g.

 

You can tie video games to art, computer science, math. Chem can be tied to fireworks, I think - heheh, don't remember much chem. The point is to motivate kids, to show what they can do with that knowledge, - instead of simply mumbling something about derivaties.

 

When I look back at all my chem classes, btw, what i remmeber the best is the day my teacher showed us an explosion and explained how it happened - I was amazed!

 

-yes

[yes]

I think highschool is way too late to start talking about proper eating. Look at all these terribly overweight 10 year olds! They have no clue what McD food is doing to their bodies - if the science teacher took the time to explain what happens to food once it's in you and how it affects you, that'd be both practical and informative.

 

-yes

[Ryan]

Exactly - kids care about video games, beer, etc. so why not tie the academic "boring" subjects to the stuff they care about??

 

This I can agree with....a good teacher will make the subject come alive for the students in a relevant way.

[moimeme]

Dietary habits are part of fitness. Perhaps you meant exercise?

 

I usually equate fitness = exercise but point taken.

 

In the context of obesity, which is the largest epidemic in the US, proper dietary habits with no exercise can easily prevent it. Even the best exercise program will not be able to counteract a poor diet.

 

True but my contention is that once people adopt exercise, they become interested in diet. I don't think it works as well the other way though I'd be fascinated to know. Wonder if anybody's done a study?

[moimeme]

why not tie the academic "boring" subjects to the stuff they care about??

 

What is 'boring' to you may not be 'boring' to someone else. Math bored me. I have friends who did their degrees in math. I love theories and abstraction and hate detail and dates/times stuff. My spouse loved history and hated theorizing. You have a panoply of tastes in school and you can't make it fun for everyone.

 

Yes, not all teachers are terrific just as not all bosses are terrific and not all people are terrific. You have to enjoy the good ones you have and try to learn the best you can from the others. Again, the thing that schools should perhaps do more is train people to be independent about learning. What you are complaining about is that people don't hand you the information you want. You should have been trained to go get the information you want.

[yes]

when i say "boring", moimeme, i don't mean what bored me (i have odd tastes), but what seemed to go into one ear and out of the other ear for most people around me in highschool.

 

as for complaining that info isn't being handed to me - quite the opposite, i'm complaining that too much raw info is being handed to students. indeed, i'd much rather kids learn methods of getting information, filtering it, analyzing it, etc.

 

-yes

[midori]

Originally posted by yes

Exactly - kids care about video games, beer, etc. so why not tie the academic "boring" subjects to the stuff they care about?? i think studying rollercoasters in physics class is great, for e.g.

 

-yes

 

Alternatively, we could try to convey to kids in high school that a) they don't know everything and should perhaps consider the fact that there might be some value in their studies that simply hasn't occurred to them yet; and b) there is a world, a big world, beyond video games and physical appearance. Perhaps what high school kids need to have impressed upon them is the fact that they will soon be entering that world, and their video game skills and categorical knowledge of caloric and fat contents of all the food groups is not going to be enough to make it.

 

And if they don't know that, the only people they can reasonably blame are a) themselves and b) their parents. Annual trips to Disneyworld might be fun but they don't do much to expand the horizons of overweight suburbanites.

 

I'm sorry yes, but I don't think there is a remedy for lazy parenting. You can't expect the schools to compensate when parents fall down on the job. If your kid is fat stop feeding him pizza and tacos and whatever other quick and easy crap you've been dishing up. Don't blame his gym teacher because, in a 40 minute period, he can't manage to get your kid's fat butt around the gym enough to burn off all the needless calories the kid has consumed.

 

Likewise you can't expect the schools to compensate for the intellectual laziness and complacency of students. I think it's good that you're questioning what's going on in schools yes, because there's an obvious disconnect for a lot of students. But perhaps the answer lies not in changing the way subjects are taught, but in changing the way students approach their time in school. It's not supposed to be fun and games. It's not supposed to be all easily digested fluff that doesn't require kids to stretch beyond their immediate comfort and interest zones.

[clia]

Exactly - kids care about video games, beer, etc. so why not tie the academic "boring" subjects to the stuff they care about??

 

I agree with this. The problem is that you can't tie everything to something fun. And even this still won't please everyone in the class.

 

i think studying rollercoasters in physics class is great, for e.g.

 

We did this and all other kinds of cool stuff in my physics class. I guess maybe I got a better education at my crappy public school than I thought!

[Tony T]

There are actually people writing in this thread who really think children thrown into a school system with hundreds of others, put in classes with 25-35 people, can actually get what they need in life that they don't get at home. That kind of thinking is obviously the result of the flawed system I'm talking about.

 

So we don't have great parents so we push their duties off to an overloaded, underfunded school system. OK, I will accept that reality. But I'll have nothing to do with it. I am extremely grateful for the people in this thread apprising me of what is really going on in this world. I had a hint but never any confirmation like this. And the attitude that it's OK and we should accept it, DUH! No, I'm not living in a fantasy. If I have kids, they will either be home schooled by me or put in the very best private schools where they will be educated in academic areas and matters of their privates, morals, character, etc. are learned at home.

 

And isn't it just great when the teachers make their moves on admiring students of the opposite sex. Sex isn't just for the clergy anymore.

[clia]

But perhaps the answer lies not in changing the way subjects are taught, but in changing the way students approach their time in school. It's not supposed to be fun and games. It's not supposed to be all easily digested fluff that doesn't require kids to stretch beyond their immediate comfort and interest zones.

 

I absolutely, 100% agree with this.

[yes]

OK, it's the parents fault. Parents should be different. NOW WHAT?! You can't change the parents, can you?

 

I started talking about the schooling system because it's more controlled than parents, and can be improved much more easily since it's certalized.

 

I'm not saying that a school CAN or SHOULD make up for bad parenting, but it can do a PART of that, so why not use that possibility. Seeing the obeisty problem, it's most logical to me to start educating kids about proper eating, because their parents don't and won't. And if you don't teach them, neither will they teach their kids, and so forth.

 

Regarding kids realizing that there's a bigger world out there - well, yes, teachers should aim to show that, shouldn't they? What's currently happening is that teachers speak to many deaf ears, and you're saying that because it's the students' and parents' fault, the teachers should just keep on doing their thing. This way, nothing's going to change.

 

Schooling shouldn't be too easy or too hard - but it should be interesting and engaging, as well as informative, otherwise we're back to talking to deaf ears.

 

Anyway, if i ever get my hands on the schooling system, BEWARE y'all But luckily for you I likely won't. I suppose all I can do is try to be a good parent myself when the time comes.

 

-yes

[Tony T]

I think we're making too many generalizations here. Some parents are excellent and teach their children well. Some don't. The original poster was suggesting we give more parenting roles to the schools. In the cases where kids get no guidance or moral education at home, school may be the only place they can get a morsel of anything.

 

There are great parents, mediocre ones and sorry ones. But the sorry excuses for humans that expect their parenting role to be assumed by schools should be shot, or at least sterilized.

[moimeme]

There are actually people writing in this thread who really think children thrown into a school system with hundreds of others, put in classes with 25-35 people, can actually get what they need in life that they don't get at home. That kind of thinking is obviously the result of the flawed system I'm talking about.

 

Ah, but Tony, it would mean raising taxes to put money towards truly excellent education and people want their money in their pockets. Politicians who cut taxes by promising tax refunds get elected. Politicians who say more cash is needed to provide better services are laughed at for their 'socialist' views. It's all about money and people who want money in their pockets for their three SUV's and their four colour TVs rather than hand it over to a school system.

[moimeme]

I think we're making too many generalizations here

 

Does that include blaming the whole school system for Dahmer and Bundy and talking about the rare teacher who has sex with a student as though these were valid arguments for your points.

[moimeme]

But the sorry excuses for humans that expect their parenting role to be assumed by schools should be shot, or at least sterilized.

 

The 'sorry excuses for humans' were once children who didn't learn from their parents. It is not helpful to blame people for what they have become. It is more useful to figure out how to help the next generations of parents to become excellent parents and stop the chain of abuse that leads to people being unable to be functional humans/parents.

 

It makes me sick that people have huge amounts of empathy for abused children but once those children grow up, there is no mercy. You all know damn well that your interior life is formed when you are a child. People carry lifelong insecurities and fears from childhood and those cripple them sometimes. Yet an abused child who is badly scarred by his experiences is expected to grow up into full and functional adulthood on his own and is blamed if he does not. Oh yeah, that's fair. Take a person unequipped to function well and expect him to magically acquire the skills. Yes, some people do but not everyone does. Read up on 'resiliency' sometimes. Also read up on brain plasticity. Bad people are built, not created.

[Tony T]

"It is more useful to figure out how to help the next generations of parents to become excellent parents and stop the chain of abuse that leads to people being unable to be functional humans/parents."

 

Excellent idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now, please do it and get back with me.

 

FYI: If the next generation of parents is being subjected to what the last generation is pouring off onto them, your work is cut out for you. As long as thinking adults, no matter what their dysfunctional background, are intent on giving off their parental role to others.....well, I think the solution will be difficult and I only have answers for my own life and the people I'm in charge of.

 

Frankly, I don't have another word to say on this subject...and I won't until I can think of some solutions myself. It's the best thing I can do to just keep my rants to myself. Before the start of this thread, all I was thinking about was Sunday football.

[BlockHead]

And even math class - why make it so terribly boring. Problem solving is a great skill - and it can be developed in the shape of games. Laabels like "derivative" and all that make no difference to the process of thinking that should be developed in the class. And instead, most students simply memorize how to solve a few types of problems, and forget it right after the final.

Some people have no appreciation for higher level math or the sciences.

 

Well, why don't we just ship our babies off to public school right from the hospital, let the teachers nurse them, bottle feed them, change their diapers, and take them right on into adulthood? Let's take parents out of the equation entirely. Let's relieve parents of teaching children proper hygiene, to exercise, to eat properly. Hell, the parents went through all the trouble to have intercourse to bring them into the world...why should be expect them to take it any further? I'm with you. Parents shouldn't have any responsiblities whatsoever to their children because we pay our taxes and public schools ought to do it all.

There are so many lazy and incompetent parents, and I think that is contributing to the social decline of the United States. How prison inmates are the product of poor parenting? Maybe schools should be designed more like prisons. The kids will be forced to learn the basics like discipline, and they will learn to hate prison.

 

Yes, not all teachers are terrific just as not all bosses are terrific and not all people are terrific.

Everybody has a preferred method of learning. Some people like to learn through lecture, some like to learn from example, and some like to learn through reading. Catering to all of them is not easy.

 

What is 'boring' to you may not be 'boring' to someone else. Math bored me. I have friends who did their degrees in math. I love theories and abstraction and hate detail and dates/times stuff. My spouse loved history and hated theorizing. You have a panoply of tastes in school and you can't make it fun for everyone.

Excellent point!!! That is the difference between sensing and intuitive personality types.

 

Likewise you can't expect the schools to compensate for the intellectual laziness and complacency of students.

There is a whole culture to it.

 

I think that there are too many people who like to scapegoat the school system in order to excuse their poor parenting.

[Tony T]

"I think that there are too many people who like to scapegoat the school system in order to excuse their poor parenting."

 

By golly, I think you've got it!!! Your parents did an excellent job with you!!!

[moimeme]

well, I think the solution will be difficult .

 

and I won't until I can think of some solutions myself.

 

You are sooooooo right, friend. Not that you, personally, have to think of solutions but it is a thorny problem indeed.

 

No problem has a simple solution; and often people blame the wrong cause for a problem. You usually have to look deeper to find other causes. Yes complains that school was boring and the topics inutile to her. The solution is not simply 'teach more fun stuff better'. You have to start with paying for better schools, paying teachers better and improving their conditons so they'll not burn out, training some teachers better, etc. etc. etc.

 

People assume that bad parents are deliberately bad - that's just ridiculous. People do the best they know how - the issue lies with what they've been taught and by whom. If people aren't taught to be good parents and if they aren't good at learning for themselves (and I'm talking native intellect here), then they aren't to blame. It isn't helpful to blame. It is helpful to investigate the causes and aim for prevention.