Problems with fiance

[james123]

Soul Search, yes I've seen it around the net.

You people aren't being realistic. It's common sense that men and women hanging out together alone is very likely to lead to something.

There was a study on this. It was posted on some board here also. That cheating is on the rise because we have more 'close friends' of the opposite sex.

People saying they have friends of the opposite sex and something hasn't happened need to get real. It's virtually impossible to be close friends with someone of the opposite sex.

[norajane]

People saying they have friends of the opposite sex and something hasn't happened need to get real. It's virtually impossible to be close friends with someone of the opposite sex.

 

Get real in what way? The OP has had this business partnership for 6 years and nothing has happened between them. In fact, her fiance only came into the picture 2 years ago, so there was nothing stopping them from getting together prior to that if they had wanted to.

 

So how is that not "real"? It's very real, and very pertinent here.

 

Telling her to give up a lucrative business in this economy where it would be very difficult for her to get another job doesn't make a lot of sense, especially when there is ZERO evidence that there is anything more here than a friendship and successful business relationship.

[james123]

Get real in what way? The OP has had this business partnership for 6 years and nothing has happened between them. In fact, her fiance only came into the picture 2 years ago, so there was nothing stopping them from getting together prior to that if they had wanted to.

 

So how is that not "real"? It's very real, and very pertinent here.

 

Telling her to give up a lucrative business in this economy where it would be very difficult for her to get another job doesn't make a lot of sense, especially when there is ZERO evidence that there is anything more here than a friendship and successful business relationship.

I'm not saying that there is something going on between the OP and this friend.

But almost all "platonic" relationships don't really remain that way and become something more, so the fiance's problem is understandable. See it from his point of view.

[norajane]

I'm not saying that there is something going on between the OP and this friend.

But almost all "platonic" relationships don't really remain that way and become something more, so the fiance's problem is understandable. See it from his point of view.

 

His point of view is coming from a place of insecurity, since there has been no evidence of any romantic interest from either the OP or her business partner in each other for 6 years.

 

His point of view is not looking at what "is", but what he's afraid "might" happen, regardless of the reality of her situation.

 

His point of view is requiring her to dissolve a lucrative and successful partnership and business, which not only affects her and her business partner, but ALL of their employees as well, and only based on his insecurities without any actual substantiation.

[ella23]

well, it's true that platonic relationships don't always last, but that's not the point. it's unacceptable here because they are together all the time, the fiance will be worried.

[norajane]

well, it's true that platonic relationships don't always last, but that's not the point. it's unacceptable here because they are together all the time, the fiance will be worried.

 

They're not together ALL the time. They work together often, and often with other people around. Just as she would work with men at ANY consulting job.

[dnm]

What about you? Are you the kind of person to change your view on something you feel strongly about?

 

How do you feel? Is this an issue you feel strongly about? You haven't expressed a lot of emotion about this here.

 

Are you upset that your fiancee wants you to end this partnership? Are you upset that your fiancee has made this a condition of marriage? How do you feel about ending the friendship with your partner as well as the business? How would you feel if he carried this further and felt very strongly about you having ANY friendships, close or casual, with other men? How would you feel if you ended your partnership, found another job with a male boss, male colleagues, and your then-husband felt very strongly about you leaving the job because you are working too closely on projects with them, and traveling with them as well?

 

No, I don't change my views too easily either.

Of course I'm upset that he wants me to end the partnership and has made this a condition.

BTW I don't think he would ask me to end my friendships with other people.

I suppose he can't complain if I find another job and have to work with male co-workers. He probably won't, because he says that in this case I'm not necessarily going to be close friends with my colleagues.

 

----

[dnm]

Yesterday we had a bit of an argument over this. It ended with him saying that it's foolish to expect a man to put up with this, and that it's not right to be with some other man when you are in a committed relationship. That he loves me but I'm being unreasonable in wanting him to accept this. I think he sometimes feels that my not giving up my business means that I don't love him enough.

[Tomcat33]

Yesterday we had a bit of an argument over this. It ended with him saying that it's foolish to expect a man to put up with this, and that it's not right to be with some other man when you are in a committed relationship. That he loves me but I'm being unreasonable in wanting him to accept this. I think he sometimes feels that my not giving up my business means that I don't love him enough.

 

 

Wow there are so many levels of wrongness to what you just described but I digress...

 

Look there seems to be some hidden something going on here, there must be SOMETHING that he sees in your relationship with this man the he particularly finds offensive OR you are just too accomodating with this man and are already in a somewhat abusive type relationship with him.

 

Has he had this kind of pull on you in other situations before? Has he been dead against something you have had to change or give up for him? If this is a one time only deal then clearly there is something about your rel. with your business partner that is inapropriate, NO SOUND MINDED man would be this unreasonable to his fiance about a business rel. unless he saw something severly wrong or he was abusive and chauvenistic in nature.

 

Please take a long hard look. Like Norajane said, it seems you don't have much emotion when you post here so I am wondering what it is that you are holding back? Something doesn't sit right about this situation.

[norajane]

and that it's not right to be with some other man when you are in a committed relationship.

 

But you are not WITH some other man. You own a business with another person and have for a long time before you even started dating your bf, and for a long time WHILE you were dating your bf.

 

Being WITH a man and managing a business with a man are two very different things. Don't you think so?

 

And you could easily turn this around and tell your fiance HE doesn't love you enough since he wants you to give up a business you've built up from nothing into a successful and profitable business. But you won't do that, will you? Because you don't play unfair like that. Because you respect your bf more than he respects you.

[dnm]

Wow there are so many levels of wrongness to what you just described but I digress...

 

Look there seems to be some hidden something going on here, there must be SOMETHING that he sees in your relationship with this man the he particularly finds offensive OR you are just too accomodating with this man and are already in a somewhat abusive type relationship with him.

 

Has he had this kind of pull on you in other situations before? Has he been dead against something you have had to change or give up for him? If this is a one time only deal then clearly there is something about your rel. with your business partner that is inapropriate, NO SOUND MINDED man would be this unreasonable to his fiance about a business rel. unless he saw something severly wrong or he was abusive and chauvenistic in nature.

 

Please take a long hard look. Like Norajane said, it seems you don't have much emotion when you post here so I am wondering what it is that you are holding back? Something doesn't sit right about this situation.

 

I'm not hiding anything. There is no point in asking for help if you hide or lie. Yes, I'm not being very emotional in what I'm writing on the board, doesn't mean that I'm not feeling anything.

In the past? He's not and has never been abusive, but,well, he didn't like me hanging out with only male friends, so I only meet them when he's around, or when there are other female friends around, mostly at social events. I guess that's understandable to an extent. He's quite insecure and somewhat possessive.

He thinks that I must have been really close to my business partner if I started a business with him. I've told him several times that there is not and has never been anything more than friendship and a business relation between him and me.

[dnm]

But you are not WITH some other man. You own a business with another person and have for a long time before you even started dating your bf, and for a long time WHILE you were dating your bf.

 

Being WITH a man and managing a business with a man are two very different things. Don't you think so?

 

And you could easily turn this around and tell your fiance HE doesn't love you enough since he wants you to give up a business you've built up from nothing into a successful and profitable business. But you won't do that, will you? Because you don't play unfair like that. Because you respect your bf more than he respects you.

. By being together, he meant spending time alone with him at work.

[RecordProducer]

See the thing is that he doesn't believe that platonic relationships can exist, especially close ones.

But they certainly do exist to his great surprise and disbelief. This is a very backward mentality. I would understand him if this guy was just your close friend, but he is your business partner, which adds a lot of seriousness to the friendship. You go to work with this guy, you don't get together and drink on his sofa on Saturday night.

 

The difference between your relationship and a typical male-female close friendship is in the motive. The nature of your relationship is professional above all; you don't go to work just to see him and spend time with him. How often do you get together with him apart from work? Do you kiss him on the cheek every morning? Do you share intimate information with him? Why is your fiancé jealous of him? It seems like he imposed his stone-age demands on you just because he strongly believes in certain things and won't change his mind no matter what. Do you really think that this kind of person is good marriage material? You think he's worth you giving up your hard-earned career for him? And please spare me the "he has no problem with my business, just my partner," because it's bullsh*t. If you're ever put in a team with a couple other men, he'll tell you to quit the job. He'll tell you he has no problem with your work, only with men; so go find a place where only women work - and you will NEVER find a job like that. He is trying to crush you down and wipe out your identity. I really don't understand men who marry smart, free-spirited, educated women just to show them that their place is in the kitchen.

 

You know what? He's demanding that you do something against your will, so don't do it. Just tell him NO. He won't marry you? Fine. If that's how much he cares about you and trusts you, then you don't need him. If he doesn't marry you because of your business partnership, won't that show you that his spite is stronger than his love for you? Not because his love is not strong enough, but because sometimes people's character flaws are stronger than any good feelings.

 

By the way, what does he do for a living?

[Tomcat33]

I'm not hiding anything. There is no point in asking for help if you hide or lie. Yes, I'm not being very emotional in what I'm writing on the board, doesn't mean that I'm not feeling anything.

In the past? He's not and has never been abusive, but,well, he didn't like me hanging out with only male friends, so I only meet them when he's around, or when there are other female friends around, mostly at social events. I guess that's understandable to an extent. He's quite insecure and somewhat possessive.

He thinks that I must have been really close to my business partner if I started a business with him. I've told him several times that there is not and has never been anything more than friendship and a business relation between him and me.

 

 

Ok fair enough and I apologize if my questions made you feel uncomfortable in any way.

 

This makes more sense what you just wrote out, it is that he has ALWAYS been insecure of all your male friends. This is something that will not stop here Dnm, this will follow you to every situation that involves you and another man. It could be your doctor, your new boss if you quit your business and start working for a man, and god forbid you like working for another man. I really think you should consider this relationship with your man. His insecurities will not subside by you adjusting your life to conform to his demands, they will only compound with time. You are only feeding the beast.

 

I could understand a man's stance if there is an inapropriate relationship developing between you and another man, I am dead against initiating frienships of the opposite sex once you are already with someone and I am hyper aware not to ever cross lines that would create any sort of jealousy in a man I am with. I have a few very good male friends, friends whom I have had for 10plus years who are platonic, like they are my older brothers. I would never give them up for any man, and any man who cannot trust me with those friendships essentially does not trust ME. So I want nothing to do with a man who can't trust me. But on the same token I would never go out of my way to befriend a new male, being in a relationship with someone already. That to me seems not only disrespectful to my mate but it seems like I am looking for trouble. There is no need.

 

In my last relationship with a man I met while he was married but started dating him once he was seperated, he lied to his ex about us being together and coincidentally he was the most jealous and possesive man I have ever been with. He was insecure, and I had started working for a job that I really liked and my boss was really cool and his first question to me was "do you fancy him?" It hurt me so much that he would ask me such a dumb question given how in love I was with this man and how blind his insecurities were. As it happens he was the only man that projected his actions on to my persona, HE was the one who lied and HE was the one who was easily lead by the nose by others NOT ME.

We worked together on a side project and every single time a man would come into the scene he would make a big deal about every guy that paid any sort of professional attention to me. He was convinced they were trying to pick me up and would throw incredible jealousy fits and tell me it was because he was so in love with me. He would end up making ME feel guilty for his lack of trust when I did NOTHING to deserve this. The best line of all was "I trust you I just don't trust other men" That is the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard. He didn't trust ME, if you trust me it doesn't matter what other men want it is ME who is going to say yay or nay. But that was his underhanded way of saying that. But ultimately the bottom line is he didn't trust himself, he could not make up his mind about anything and he really had 0 trust in his abilities which he projected on to me.

 

Be very careful with that type of man, it will only bring you heartache.

[RecordProducer]

he didn't trust himself

Some of the very jealous and possessive men are notorious cheaters.

 

 

I've told him several times that there is not and has never been anything more than friendship and a business relation between him and me.

And he doesn't believe you, right?

 

Does he also encourage you to dress modestly and NOT wear makeup? If he hasn't yet, that will come, too. He is insecure and unless you're sitting at home without any contact to the outside world, he will not leave you alone. NOW he is saying that it's only your business partner; tomorrow he'll say "It's only this particular job because of your boss" then he will say "It's just this client,"... until you find yourself in a voluntary prison; but by that time, you will have children and your professional skills will lose marketability.

 

Your job and any business success, your friendships with sucessful people, your family, your savings, your education -these are all your weapons against him. Against him because he won't be happy until he turns you into an isolated, obedient girl - which means until you become completely miserable. And when you become miserable, you will want to leave him - and if you have a chain of support tools (money, friends, brain), you're strong. If he takes all that away from you, gradually, while you're still madly in love and believe it's all "cute," you won't be able to leave him. Can't you see that instead of looking after yourwellbeing and trying to make you happy, he's trying to destroy your strength and tie you down?

 

He sounds like one of those guys who murder their wife and themself when she wants to leave them.

 

Ella, you do realize how hypocritical you come across as?

I agree, and she called ME hypocritical. I have zero tolerance for men prevent women from being financially independent. I would take the same stance even if the business partner was an ex-lover. Being in a bad marriage is bad enough, but being in a bad marriage and depending on your husband is horrific. Been there, done that. Twice!

[dnm]

 

How often do you get together with him apart from work? Do you kiss him on the cheek every morning? Do you share intimate information with him? Why is your fiancé jealous of him?

We have common friends (my group of friends still largely comprises of my MBA classmates), so we are often at the same social events. Otherwise, I used to have coffee with him after work sometimes but hardly do that now. Intimate information? About my relationship and all? No. I guess my fiance is jealous because I get along well with him, he's a good friend, and I guess the fact that he is good looking also has something to do with it. No, I don't kiss his cheek.

 

Do you really think that this kind of person is good marriage material? You think he's worth you giving up your hard-earned career for him? And please spare me the "he has no problem with my business, just my partner," because it's bullsh*t. If you're ever put in a team with a couple other men, he'll tell you to quit the job. He'll tell you he has no problem with your work, only with men; so go find a place where only women work - and you will NEVER find a job like that. He is trying to crush you down and wipe out your identity. I really don't understand men who marry smart, free-spirited, educated women just to show them that their place is in the kitchen.

By the way, what does he do for a living?

 

He's very caring otherwise. We also have similar tastes and interests. I do think he's good marriage material. He specifically tells me that he doesn't have a problem with me working, whether it's the business(minus a male partner) or elsewhere. He's not as controlling as it apparently looks like.

He's an investment banker.

 

 

Ok fair enough and I apologize if my questions made you feel uncomfortable in any way.

 

This makes more sense what you just wrote out, it is that he has ALWAYS been insecure of all your male friends. This is something that will not stop here Dnm, this will follow you to every situation that involves you and another man. It could be your doctor, your new boss if you quit your business and start working for a man, and god forbid you like working for another man. I really think you should consider this relationship with your man. His insecurities will not subside by you adjusting your life to conform to his demands, they will only compound with time. You are only feeding the beast.

 

 

 

Be very careful with that type of man, it will only bring you heartache.

I don't know, what if I break up, and no other man puts up with this either? Maybe if I do what he wants this time, he won't be so demanding again, because this would be a huge sacrifice?

 

 

 

And he doesn't believe you, right?

 

Does he also encourage you to dress modestly and NOT wear makeup?

Your job and any business success, your friendships with sucessful people, your family, your savings, your education -these are all your weapons against him. Against him because he won't be happy until he turns you into an isolated, obedient girl - which means until you become completely miserable. And when you become miserable, you will want to leave him - and if you have a chain of support tools (money, friends, brain), you're strong. If he takes all that away from you, gradually, while you're still madly in love and believe it's all "cute," you won't be able to leave him. Can't you see that instead of looking after yourwellbeing and trying to make you happy, he's trying to destroy your strength and tie you down?

 

 

See, I know it kind of irks him that I make around the same money as him, more this year, but I don't think he wants me to sit at home or tie me down. No, he has never told me to not wear make up or dress modestly.

I won't be giving up everything for him, I don't think anyone could demand all that!?!

[norajane]

He's very caring otherwise. We also have similar tastes and interests. I do think he's good marriage material. He specifically tells me that he doesn't have a problem with me working, whether it's the business(minus a male partner) or elsewhere. He's not as controlling as it apparently looks like.

He's an investment banker.

 

That's only because you have given in to his wishes in the past, regarding all your male friends whom you don't see alone anymore. Right now, he is not considering that at whatever job you might take, you will develop friendships and working relationships with men, simply because you are in an industry with many men in it. He doesn't have a problem with you working...yet. He's never known you in any other job, so you don't know what he will or won't demand in the future should you find another job in this industry.

 

 

I don't know, what if I break up, and no other man puts up with this either? Maybe if I do what he wants this time, he won't be so demanding again, because this would be a huge sacrifice?

Don't kid yourself. If you would make such a huge sacrifice, it will not stop. He will use it to his advantage. It will always be, "well, this sacrifice I'm asking of you now is much smaller so why is it so hard for you to make it? Don't you love me enough? Or is this [new friend guy] so much more important to you? You want him, don't you? If you didn't, you would do this for me."

 

See, I know it kind of irks him that I make around the same money as him, more this year, but I don't think he wants me to sit at home or tie me down. No, he has never told me to not wear make up or dress modestly.

I won't be giving up everything for him, I don't think anyone could demand all that!?!

Maybe this is really his issue. Or compounds it. Meaning, he'd be accepting of the partnership if you were not also quite so successful?

[Tomcat33]

I don't know, what if I break up, and no other man puts up with this either? Maybe if I do what he wants this time, he won't be so demanding again, because this would be a huge sacrifice?

 

 

 

Maybe being the operative word. Or maybe you let him walk and meet a man who is just as compatible and who is also secure enough in himself that he will support you in your professional endevours.

Maybe maybe maybe!

 

I know it's not an easy choice. I would never suggest you dump him. But it seems like there is no middle ground here. Have you wrapped your head around terminating your business? Have you seriously given indepth thought to quiting your business and finding work that does not interfere with the demands of your future husband? because that is what you are up against next. You need to sit down and visualize the entire process, and don't think for a second he won't feel a sense of entitlement to your next professional endevour choices, he will want to be 100% part of that process to ensure you do as he wants/needs.

 

Really think about that. If you can come to terms with how that will play out and feel that is less hurtful to you than letting him walk, then that is your answer right there, you know what to do.

[dnm]

Really think about that. If you can come to terms with how that will play out and feel that is less hurtful to you than letting him walk, then that is your answer right there, you know what to do.

I don't know. It would be painful for me, very painful, to let go of my business. But at the same time, I love him so much, I want to be with him, too.

In any case, the guys who posted here also said things like nobody will put up with this, which worries me, because I'd have difficulty finding someone again.

 

 

Don't kid yourself. If you would make such a huge sacrifice, it will not stop. He will use it to his advantage. It will always be, "well, this sacrifice I'm asking of you now is much smaller so why is it so hard for you to make it? Don't you love me enough? Or is this [new friend guy] so much more important to you? You want him, don't you? If you didn't, you would do this for me."

 

Maybe this is really his issue. Or compounds it. Meaning, he'd be accepting of the partnership if you were not also quite so successful?

Not with a guy, but he's fine with it, just not with a male business partner.

He can't go on demanding like that...

he didn't ask me to leave before we decided to marry, doesn't that mean he's at least a bit considerate about this thing?

[Tomcat33]

I don't know. It would be painful for me, very painful, to let go of my business. But at the same time, I love him so much, I want to be with him, too.

In any case, the guys who posted here also said things like nobody will put up with this, which worries me, because I'd have difficulty finding someone again.

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, but there were also guys who posted here who said they thought your boyfriend was being unreasonable.

 

Can I ask what kind of business it is that you are in?

[dnm]

Fair enough, but there were also guys who posted here who said they thought your boyfriend was being unreasonable.

 

Can I ask what kind of business it is that you are in?

It's a consultancy business.

I guess not that many men posted, but I was just inferring from the other thread in Infidelity, that most people are not okay with this.

[norajane]

In any case, the guys who posted here also said things like nobody will put up with this, which worries me, because I'd have difficulty finding someone again.

 

There are not many guys who would ask you to give up a successful business you started, no. Only the insecure ones.

 

 

Not with a guy, but he's fine with it, just not with a male business partner.

He can't go on demanding like that...

he didn't ask me to leave before we decided to marry, doesn't that mean he's at least a bit considerate about this thing?

What I meant was, is the fact that you ARE so successful at your business compounding his jealousy issue? Maybe if your business was not drawing in as much money and more than he makes, he'd have less of an issue.

 

But, no, that he didn't ask you to dissolve your business prior to marriage is not him being considerate. It's only with his conditional proposal that he felt he had enough of a bargaining chip to convince you to do it. Why would you EVER even consider it for a bf? But, now that marriage is on the table, he can hold that over your head and get you to do what he wants.

 

If he were at least a little bit considerate, he'd discuss his fears with you in a reasonable way without giving you an ultimatum in the form of a conditional marriage proposal. He's deliberately put you between a rock and a hard place.

 

You could put the shoe on the other foot and see how he likes it. Maybe then he'd see how controlling he's being. You could tell him YOU won't marry HIM unless he drops this preposterous demand. You could tell him that his demand has made you reconsider whether the two of you are really right for each other if, instead of supporting you, he wants you to give up a successful business relationship that you've worked really hard to build. That's probably what I would do.

[LavendarGirl]

dnm, if I am reading your posts correctly, you are saying that your fiancee is demanding that you give up the business you worked so hard to build. Because he demands it, it will happen. Otherwise, if it were up to you (or if there were no fiancee in the picture), you would continue your business and your partnership. No effort of asserting yourself on your end, no thought to finding a compromise.

 

You also said somewhere in your posts that if your fiancee feels strongly enough about an issue, he is not going to change his mind. Again, that does not sound like a happy setup for a marriage, do you think? A husband that isn't willing to compromise?

 

You discount the idea of PMC or pre-nup (though granted isn't legal in the UK per your earlier post). The world that you are living is according to your fiancee.

 

You will wake up one day and wonder where your self esteem went. Honestly. You are giving this guy complete control over you. Why?

[iamenough]

Obviously none of us can tell you what to give up in this situation. I will say though, I (personally) don't know a single _man_ (a secure & truly loving man) who would put you in this position in the first place. I'm actually disgusted on your behalf. It literally blows my mind that he's threatening to NOT marry you because your partner is a dude. Especially considering the fact that he KNEW what the situation was before proposing. It's just so ridiculous, that I'm actually irritated! I also agree with the other posters who have said he sounds controlling. I agree with them, because I've been with a controlling man myself -- your guy is certainly acting in ways I'd be quite wary of. Also, please don't talk yourself into believing there will never be another guy for you. There is a world full of men who would not have a problem with your business partner being a guy, just because they haven't posted in this thread doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Tomcat33]

It's a consultancy business.

I guess not that many men posted, but I was just inferring from the other thread in Infidelity, that most people are not okay with this.

 

 

Dnm you are comparing apples and oranges. The other thread is a very different situation than yours. In the infidelity thread the situation is

 

1. a man who has a friendship with a woman that his W dissaproves of they are not conducting a business together they work together but he chose to be friends with this woman and be close to her as friends against his W's wishes.

 

2. his W cheated on him with his best friend and since the man does not trust men and he says that he is not angered by what his W did to him that all of his energy is focused on hating the best friend whom his W kissed, he is ok with only befriending women. He stresses that he does not have male friends anymore since he lost trust in men, but not women? Afterall his W kissed his best friend so why not lose hope in humanity as a whole? Why single out men?

 

3. he refuses to make friends with other men because he does not trust men after what his W did

 

4. it is so GLAIRINGLY OBVIOUS that man is NOT over the fact his W did that to him and is using this friendship as a means to get at her for what she did to him. He clearly gets some sort of pleasure in keeping his W on her toes and making her feel insecure. He denies this but then again he might be in denial himself.

 

5. you will find that on boards such as these a great number of people tend to be quite one dimensional when it comes to looking at situations and giving advice. They see situations in general terms and for them x + y will always = Z not bothering to quantify what the value of x and y really are.

 

6. for me it's a no brainer if your spouse feels insecure about a specific friendship then you need to put your foot down and work on making that friend as non threatening as possible or cut it out. He made this friendship AFTER the fact, you had your business partner from before you met your fiance and there is no concrete reaason for him to mistrust you or your partner other than the fact you are opposite sex. BIG difference.

 

And in your case there was no infidelity, you are not befriending a man you are BUSINESS PARTNERS in your company.

What happens if you end up in a firm working with another team of guys? Have you asked your fiance what will happen then? Will he expect you to quit and transfer careers again?

Does he realise men are in the workplace?