why is the love less valued?

[OWoman]

I get what you are saying....I see the benefits of being the OW in a realtionship - if that is truly what someone wants to be. Don't get me wrong here, I am not condoning, just in understanding. Besides, the OW never has to do the WS's laundry or handle the stress of finances or the stress of raising a family. The BS is left with those responsibilities...obviously alone since the WS is spending time with the OW when he or she could be contributing to their family and making things easier at home, thereby aliviating the stress on the marriage and making the OW obsolete.

 

That's probably true in many cases, but in mine it was the MM that did all that stuff, while his BW just swanned around shopping all day. The house is a complete tip since he left, since she doesn't even know how to operate the appliances...

[frannie]

this is not a criticism, just an observation... Why is it that when two people meet, fall in love and get married everyone says it's so lovely/wonderful etc(even if both people have had many previous relationships) and yet when two people meet and have an affair then then even though they love each other the relationship is less valued on this site? Eg, usual comments are, the relationship is not real/the individuals must be lacking something within themselves...

 

Well there are a lot of people who try to reconcile after infidelity on this site. If they're going to have to look at the love between the affair partners as 'real' then that's going to make reconciling a much harder job. Far easier to call those feelings 'a fog' or temporary insanity or something to do with chemicals, and therefore negate it.

 

Of course the 'real' love that people who aren't already legally committed to another experience is completely different to this. Nothing to do with chemicals or temporary insanity, because it's open and above board and worthy as you say of celebration [/sarcasm]

[Owl]

Well there are a lot of people who try to reconcile after infidelity on this site. If they're going to have to look at the love between the affair partners as 'real' then that's going to make reconciling a much harder job. Far easier to call those feelings 'a fog' or temporary insanity or something to do with chemicals, and therefore negate it.

 

Of course the 'real' love that people who aren't already legally committed to another experience is completely different to this. Nothing to do with chemicals or temporary insanity, because it's open and above board and worthy as you say of celebration [/sarcasm]

 

I find the /sarcasm pretty funny, actually.

 

Frannie, as a kid or teen, did you ever do something really illicit? Illegal? Dangerous? Or even as an adult...

 

Another great example...remember your very "first time"?

 

Remember how you were happy/excited/scared/pumped up/scared, especially at the very start of it all?

 

That's a large part of what made it so memorable.

 

Ever notice how you feel those same feelings...albeit on a smaller scale...whenever your 'with' someone new for the very first time?

 

That's intensified WAY more when its combined with the "danger/illicit/etc..." adrenaline rush as well.

 

To the point where its really hard to seperate what emotion is causing what response.

 

And THAT is a large part of why people say that the "love" felt during an affair is NOT "love"...but more of a combination of all those responses lumped together into one big chemical high.

 

I get that you don't agree...fair enough. But take the time to actually read some of the research done on the subject when you get the chance. Its interesting stuff.

[Reggie]

As an OW, I've certainly never lacked self-esteem!! Being an OW, IME, if anything affirms that - having someone at your beck 'n call, willing to drop everything to run to be at your side when you snap your fingers, having them there as much or as little as you want, having it all on your terms, and being able to say "vanish" when you want me-time... the OW has so much power, without the need to compromise that full-time Rs bring.

 

As for shadow life - there was none of that. We dazzled. We shone. As we still do now. The only one in the shadows is the BW, through her own doing.

 

I've never needed a man - I have a very fulfilling life, complete and happy. It's like being full after a good meal, but having a little ice cream just for the yummy. So sorry, your self-esteem comment falls nowhere near its mark with me...

I think the need to have someone at your beck and call, as well as the need to proclaim how great this "power" is, is a sign of insecurity and lack of self esteem. Seems that folks that need to puff themselves up this way are, really, the least confident people.

[Owl]

I was just thinking about the title of this thread...and the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" came to mind...

 

...and I think it really applies to this situation exceptionally well.

 

Its NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE for someone who's been emotionally traumatized and devestated by an affair to see the "value" in one afterwards...

 

Its FAR EASIER for someone who is currently involved in a affair of their own, or having been through ones that somehow ended well (for that person) to see the "value" in the affair.

 

Had you posted this question on a site like gloryb or such...you'd have had nothing but support for your viewpoint.

 

Posting here, where the makeup is predominately people trying to recover a marriage from the damages done by a cheating spouse....not so much.

 

The audience determines their own "value" that they place on something that they see.

[Mr. Lucky]

As an OW, I've certainly never lacked self-esteem!! Being an OW, IME, if anything affirms that - having someone at your beck 'n call, willing to drop everything to run to be at your side when you snap your fingers, having them there as much or as little as you want, having it all on your terms, and being able to say "vanish" when you want me-time... the OW has so much power, without the need to compromise that full-time Rs bring.

So an affair is really just a well-defined, structured booty call with set rules. Thanks, it's much clearer now...

 

Mr. Lucky

[mental_traveller]

this is not a criticism, just an observation... Why is it that when two people meet, fall in love and get married everyone says it's so lovely/wonderful etc(even if both people have had many previous relationships) and yet when two people meet and have an affair then then even though they love each other the relationship is less valued on this site? Eg, usual comments are, the relationship is not real/the individuals must be lacking something within themselves/ the people involved are 'terrible' to have fallen in love etc. You would not dream of saying this normally when people fall inlove. I realise the pain and deveststion it can cause but most of us cannot help the fact we have fallen in love with someone who is not our husband/wife. Maybe the marriage wasn't right or the people in in grew apart. Why are we punished for our feelings? Has anyone out there left their husband or wife for their lover and are now happily together?

 

Because the affair lovers totally disrespected their marital partners, marriage vows, and "love" they pretended to have with them. If their love for their husband/wife turned to dust, why should anyone think this new "love" (i.e. lust) for their affair partner shouldbe any better?

 

Affairs are one way. It's not love, it's just hot sex, endorphins, and animal lust. Morons who say it's about love, rather than just passionate bonking, are retarded beyond belief.

[woe_is_me]

You've gotten much feedback on the relationship values you brought up but I wanted to specifically address this as I do believe that an OM/OW lacks, at the minimum, self-esteem. Why else would they feel that the shadow life they're forced to live is what they deserve? Why would they put up with watching their lover walk out the door and into the home and bed of another? Why would they deprive themselves of the affirmation of friends and family?

 

An emotionally grounded person would not put themselves in that position. Just my opinion...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

i was going to reply to this post the other day ..that is one of the truest things i have ever read in here Mr.Lucky .. im not saying it applies to all the ladies here who somehow became OW, but im thinking it does to me ..

 

im back here because ive heard from my xMM again!!

this has been going on seven years almost .. i re read one of my posts the other day where i said i was sure i hadn't heard the last of him.. each time i get stronger, im nowhere near as fallen in a heap and pathetic as i was last time .. im just indifferent now .. and back here for the much appreciated and valued advice so many of you have to give ..

 

i know that its something in me that sought out men who behaved like this and i know that something in me has to change to accept that his behaviour was and is unacceptable ..im possibly a commitment phobe myself ..i lost my father at a very young age and ive never really spoken to anybody about that.. im not blaming myself or beating myself up or anything but i do feel that you made a VERY valid point Mr Lucky ..

[woe_is_me]

- having someone at your beck 'n call, willing to drop everything to run to be at your side when you snap your fingers, having them there as much or as little as you want, having it all on your terms, and being able to say "vanish" when you want me-time... the OW has so much power,

 

the OW has so much power!!!??? ummm.. don't you mean the wife?

 

he does all that for her!

 

I happen to think all that an OW does is give the H the physical intimacy he so desires and is (apparently) missing from his wife..and if its not that..then.. he's just a greedy dishonorable so n so that you wouldnt want anything to do with anyway right?

[Mr. Lucky]

i know that its something in me that sought out men who behaved like this and i know that something in me has to change to accept that his behaviour was and is unacceptable ..im possibly a commitment phobe myself ..i lost my father at a very young age and ive never really spoken to anybody about that.. im not blaming myself or beating myself up or anything but i do feel that you made a VERY valid point Mr Lucky ..

Woe, I hope that you have the resources and take the time to pursue this in counseling. Many of us spend large parts of our adult life looking for those things that were missing from our childhood, often with disastrous results. No one intentionally sets themself up to fail, but that's often what happens when we don't understand the reasons why we do what we do. I'm hoping you avoid falling back into that trap so stay strong!!!

 

Mr. Lucky

[OWoman]

the OW has so much power!!!??? ummm.. don't you mean the wife?

 

he does all that for her!

 

Errrrr - not IME. As the OW, that's what I got - and, I guess, those were my terms so it was that or no dice. IME the wives got short shrift, and little else (aside from the Gold Card to do the shopping - which in most cases seemed all they really wanted anyway.)

 

I happen to think all that an OW does is give the H the physical intimacy he so desires and is (apparently) missing from his wife..and if its not that..then.. he's just a greedy dishonorable so n so that you wouldnt want anything to do with anyway right?

 

It seems our experiences are pretty different....

[woe_is_me]

Errrrr - not IME. As the OW, that's what I got - and, I guess, those were my terms so it was that or no dice. IME the wives got short shrift, and little else (aside from the Gold Card to do the shopping - which in most cases seemed all they really wanted anyway.)

 

 

 

It seems our experiences are pretty different....

 

I only had one 'experience' ..and i dont doubt that at all ..different people, different dynamics.. this is straying off topic though..

[woe_is_me]

Many of us spend large parts of our adult life looking for those things that were missing from our childhood, often with disastrous results.

Mr. Lucky

 

or seeking to re-create them without even realising we are doing it .. with the same disastrous results ..

 

Thanks for your well wishes Mr.Lucky!

i know i can get counselling i just haven't ..yet..

[Walk]

yet when two people meet and have an affair then then even though they love each other the relationship is less valued on this site? Eg, usual comments are, the relationship is not real/the individuals must be lacking something within themselves/ the people involved are 'terrible' to have fallen in love etc.

Having had an affair, my view of the "love" while participating in an affair is this... I idealized the person I had an affair with. I never saw his bad sides. I saw only the personality that he wanted to show me, and because the time we spent together was umbrelled under a cloud of sneakiness and excitment then we weren't able to grow together as a united couple. We were individuals sneaking off to gain pleasure from each other.

 

The time we shared together was warped by guilt, infatuation, lust, and that stupid excitment you feel. Our feelings never progressed past what would normally occur for the first (maybe) month of a real relationship.. even though I was involved with teh guy for nearly a year, it was more like being stuck in the exact same moment in time with him. No progression, no growth, no unity (except in sneakiness).

 

Why are we punished for our feelings? Has anyone out there left their husband or wife for their lover and are now happily together?

 

I don't understand the idea of leaving a H for a lover. The reasons why the relationship failed in the first place were half your fault, so to jump from one relationshp to another without taking the time to discover where you went wrong and how to prevent it in the future... well, you're doomed to repeat your failures. To assume that all will some how be great because you've replaced one guy with another... the issue isn't with who you have in your life. The issues are with you. Any one (including me) who can so callously cheat on a spouse who they had made the most solemn of promises to needs to work on their own issues before jumping into a new relationship.

 

The ability to rationalize the situation in order to tell yourself that it was okay to cheat on the person you proclaimed to GOd and the world you loved... hmm... it says you aren't in a healthy mindset. Rational, logical thought says you need to either fix your marriage and don't cheat, or get out of it before beginning another relationship. If you can't think that through rationally, then you have to question if your thinking is any clearer then the drunk who drives while intoxicated.

[SoulStorm]

Having had an affair, my view of the "love" while participating in an affair is this... I idealized the person I had an affair with. I never saw his bad sides. I saw only the personality that he wanted to show me, and because the time we spent together was umbrelled under a cloud of sneakiness and excitment then we weren't able to grow together as a united couple. We were individuals sneaking off to gain pleasure from each other.

 

The time we shared together was warped by guilt, infatuation, lust, and that stupid excitment you feel. Our feelings never progressed past what would normally occur for the first (maybe) month of a real relationship.. even though I was involved with teh guy for nearly a year, it was more like being stuck in the exact same moment in time with him. No progression, no growth, no unity (except in sneakiness).

 

 

 

I don't understand the idea of leaving a H for a lover. The reasons why the relationship failed in the first place were half your fault, so to jump from one relationshp to another without taking the time to discover where you went wrong and how to prevent it in the future... well, you're doomed to repeat your failures. To assume that all will some how be great because you've replaced one guy with another... the issue isn't with who you have in your life. The issues are with you. Any one (including me) who can so callously cheat on a spouse who they had made the most solemn of promises to needs to work on their own issues before jumping into a new relationship.

 

The ability to rationalize the situation in order to tell yourself that it was okay to cheat on the person you proclaimed to GOd and the world you loved... hmm... it says you aren't in a healthy mindset. Rational, logical thought says you need to either fix your marriage and don't cheat, or get out of it before beginning another relationship. If you can't think that through rationally, then you have to question if your thinking is any clearer then the drunk who drives while intoxicated.

 

umm..AMEN!!!

[Fearful Wife]

Ever notice how you feel those same feelings...albeit on a smaller scale...whenever your 'with' someone new for the very first time?

 

That's intensified WAY more when its combined with the "danger/illicit/etc..." adrenaline rush as well.

 

Owl, how would you know this since by your own words you have been married 20+ years and never cheated?

 

I disagree. My first time with someone new, I'm usually nervous. And imagine how much anxiety and fear is involved when cheating. When people cheat it is often because they are desperate for a change in their primary relationship.

[Mr. Lucky]

Errrrr - not IME. As the OW, that's what I got - and, I guess, those were my terms so it was that or no dice. IME the wives got short shrift, and little else (aside from the Gold Card to do the shopping - which in most cases seemed all they really wanted anyway.)

Only a sociopath disregards the damage done to others in the rush to satisfy their own needs. And the victims? Just getting, in your eyes, what they deserve. Unbelievable...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Curmudgeon]

It's simple, really. A relationship between two unencumbered individuals which results in a marriage gives to the parties involved.

 

A relationship between two encumbered people that results in an affair takes away from at least one, and possibly two, others.

[pelicanpreacher]

As an OW, I've certainly never lacked self-esteem!! Being an OW, IME, if anything affirms that - having someone at your beck 'n call, willing to drop everything to run to be at your side when you snap your fingers, having them there as much or as little as you want, having it all on your terms, and being able to say "vanish" when you want me-time... the OW has so much power, without the need to compromise that full-time Rs bring.

 

As for shadow life - there was none of that. We dazzled. We shone. As we still do now. The only one in the shadows is the BW, through her own doing.

 

I've never needed a man - I have a very fulfilling life, complete and happy. It's like being full after a good meal, but having a little ice cream just for the yummy. So sorry, your self-esteem comment falls nowhere near its mark with me...

 

But you have to admit OWoman, at the onset at least, it was the catty thrill of knowing that you usurped another woman's dream of a happy or, at least, faithful marriage by seducing her husband. Then there is the power trip high that comes from the fact that your MM scurried to you at the crooking of your finger especially knowing that his wife was waiting for him unbeknownst and oblivious to the growing danger of your presence. Then comes your coup de gras of being able to marginalize the BW by taking everything she ever had, has, or will ever have with the man you now have by your side which seems to give you immense satisfaction of accomplishment.

 

What I'm saying, is that without all the work, intrigue, excitement, guilt, rollercoaster emotions and other obstacles required by the AP's to be together to share those brief "memorable moments of intimacy" that are typically indemic specifically to an affair, the feelings ones emotes for one another might not be misconstrued as "soul mate" love having never have ascented to such heights had they met under the more mundane circumstances of two single individuals trying to make a connection in the usual ways. Unsurprisingly, after experiencing such intense euphoria, the WS will have their "AHA" moment to conclude that they may have never loved their spouse, that they've always been unhappy in their relationship due to often exaggerated deficiencies of their spouse, and are convinced that it is they who are being the "noble and honorable one" to make the bigger sacrifice in staying for their children in their "loveless" marriage or the "brave and romantic one" to leave it all behind to pursue their love.

 

This is why most believe that affairs are supported with false highs borne upon thoughts and behavior that revises and skews so many facts that when viewed with an objective eye most are wise not to put much stock in them.

[pelicanpreacher]

umm..AMEN!!!

 

And WOWZA too!

[Owl]

Owl, how would you know this since by your own words you have been married 20+ years and never cheated?

 

I disagree. My first time with someone new, I'm usually nervous. And imagine how much anxiety and fear is involved when cheating. When people cheat it is often because they are desperate for a change in their primary relationship.

 

Hmmm....well...a couple of ways, really.

 

While I've been married over 20 years, my memory of my youth still exists.

 

As far as if the feelings are the same or similar for those in an affair...well...let me ask YOU this...how many people involved in an affair (regardless of 'side', BS/WS/OP) have YOU discussed this with?

 

I've talked or exchanged posts with hundreds, at least.

 

When people cheat, its most often caused by a desperate need to change SOMETHING, I'll agree.

 

What you'll find after having had all these discussions is that SOMETIMES what needs to change is in the marriage...but very often, what needs to change is something in themselves.

[OWoman]

Only a sociopath disregards the damage done to others in the rush to satisfy their own needs. And the victims? Just getting, in your eyes, what they deserve. Unbelievable...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I owe/d the "victims" no loyalty - they were unknown to me, I had no contractual relationship with them of any kind. The only "contract" I had was the agreement I made with the MMs, putting it all upfront. If they chose to agree to that - fully informed of consequences and implications - that was THEIR choice and any "damage" was caused by their agentic choice to engage in an agreement that voided or denigrated any other contract which they may have agreed with any other party.

 

If I am a supermarket, and I approach a dairy farmer to supply my milk, I am not responsible for any breach of contract that dairy farmer sustains through supplying me in addition to any other supermarkets with which he may have signed a restraint of trade agreement. His terms of supplying me are all that I am concerned about. What he has agreed with anyone else is his, and theirs, to be concerned over.

[Geishawhelk]

I owe/d the "victims" no loyalty - they were unknown to me, I had no contractual relationship with them of any kind.

Ever heard of the Domino Effect?

 

If I am a supermarket, and I approach a dairy farmer to supply my milk, .....His terms of supplying me are all that I am concerned about. What he has agreed with anyone else is his, and theirs, to be concerned over.

 

But you're not - and neither's he.....You cannot possibly be comparing affairs of the heart and loins to a written legal contract between purchaser and supplier!

 

And actually, the above is not true.

If there is a conflict of interest, the contract may be rendered null and void and the supplier can be sued for failure to disclose, and breach of terms.

[OWoman]

But you have to admit OWoman, at the onset at least, it was the catty thrill of knowing that you usurped another woman's dream of a happy or, at least, faithful marriage by seducing her husband.

 

Not remotely. The BWs never featured in my decision. It was purely about the structural requirements of finding men who would be willing to engage on my terms without wanting to crowd me and take over my life, who would be interested in something genuinely part-time and no-strings and stripped of all the emotional clutter that SGs bring with them. I'm so not competitive in that way - I play to different rules, have different objectives and different goals and am certainly not going to dilute my focus by factoring in some arb woman's issues, if only to trounce her on them!

[Ariadne]

I owe/d the "victims" no loyalty - they were unknown to me, I had no contractual relationship with them of any kind. The only "contract" I had was the agreement I made with the MMs, putting it all upfront. If they chose to agree to that - fully informed of consequences and implications - that was THEIR choice and any "damage" was caused by their agentic choice to engage in an agreement that voided or denigrated any other contract which they may have agreed with any other party.

 

If I am a supermarket, and I approach a dairy farmer to supply my milk, I am not responsible for any breach of contract that dairy farmer sustains through supplying me in addition to any other supermarkets with which he may have signed a restraint of trade agreement. His terms of supplying me are all that I am concerned about. What he has agreed with anyone else is his, and theirs, to be concerned over.

 

But don't you care how much that woman is going to suffer because of you?

 

(j/k)