For the romantics

[whichwayisup]

So why do some of us do this when we know that it won't work?

 

That's called the "affair-fog" and not thinking clearly.

[KismetGirl]

So they have no blame of having pursued the relationship? of course, i am in love so what the heck, lets just forget the wife and kids. What it matters is that i an in love. Is that the thought?

dont give a beep to others and only about what i want?

 

 

Sure... sure.... read above.. same answer... as above

 

 

 

I think you are selfish, and doing judments on ppl that follow common moral conduct. wich makes you judjamental yourself.

What i find it funny, is that you not only break the common moral conducts, you also condemn who doesnt see that as a good, appropriate or even acceptable behaviour.

The funnier part is that you forget all the other ppl that are involved, because its not only about the OW and MM, its about the MM wife and in some cases, kids. If anyone doesnt want to be monogamous DONT MARRY, and if you do, then make sure your wife or husband knows that before the marriage and agress to it. BUT CHEATING?! its bad itself, and even trying to defend the act of CHEATING itself is even worse.

 

Keep this in mind, we are not irrational animals, we are persons.

 

With all due respect, you are just as judgemental as the OP. It's called "an opinion" or "your beliefs" when you say what you think about cheating, but it's called "judgemental" when the OP says her bit? Tht doesnt sound quite right now does it.

 

Im not agreeing with either of you necessarily, just saying everyone has their own opinion and is entiteled to it.

 

I think alot of people like to judge and make accusations and judgements without even thinking. To say that someone should just not get married if they're not going to be monogamous is ridiculous. Most people that get married don't plan to cheat on their spouses. YES, there ARE some people that have never been capable of monogamy, but most people that get married do so because , at the time, they think they are doing the right thing and intend to be faithful, but then things happen down the line and they find themselves doing something they'd never imagined, and many times, morality aside on whether they should have cheated to begin with, once the deed has been done, it's not just so easy to be all "well, lets go confess everything to my wife now so she can divorce me, take my kids, ruin me financially, and upset my whole life" It's irrelevant whether or not you think that the MM deserves it or not, they obviously don't want to disrupt the family life or else they wouldnt try an affair that they tried to keep secret.

 

I never imagined I would ever be an OW. One night, a man I had long had a crush on but resolved to never be involved with due to his being married, kissed me out of the blue after I drunkenly admitted to him I found him attractive and then immediately apolgoized for saying this to him. But after that kiss, forget it. The floodgates of emotion opened up and I found myself deper and deeper in a situation that was never going to end up anywhere good, but these things happen. No one plans it, no one dreams of it or wants it or hopes to be a part of an affair one day. Who they hell would rightfully WANT an affair? Who wants to have to lie and sneak around and feel guilty when they see their family? But people do it, because people are emotional creatures and you will never know how hard it is to change certain situations unless you are in that person's shoes. Never.

[grogster]

Wow - Grogster you are completely right. I never thought of A the way you put it -- but that is exactly the way that it is. So why do some of us do this when we know that it won't work?

 

Maybe instead of looking for something that is missing from the marriage from another, try to find it with your spouse??

 

Possibly. There's a new book out out that studies married men in affairs. Almost half explained that emotional disconnection with the wife, as opposed to a desire for sex, primarily drove the affair. In addition, these affairs started quite innocently with work colleagues--first as friends, then as lovers. The book is entitled, "The Truth About Cheating: Why Men Stray and What You Can Do To Prevent It."

 

Now before I get flamed for justifying affairs, I'm not. Emotional disconnection, not raging libido, is the reason many men gave for their infidelities. Emotional disconnection is not a license to cheat.

 

However, the second part was true in my case. My married woman began as a colleague, became a friend and we became lovers. Again, this is no defense, but she was the aggressor. In retrospect it was if she simply decided she wanted an affair and picked me. I didn't fight it.

 

Be very alert to workplace opposite sex relationships.

 

And as for affair fog, believe me when I tell you that exists, too.

 

Here's a link to the interview with the book's author:

 

http://www.newsweek.com/id/160910

[loveORlogic]

With all due respect, you are just as judgemental as the OP. It's called "an opinion" or "your beliefs" when you say what you think about cheating, but it's called "judgemental" when the OP says her bit? Tht doesnt sound quite right now does it.

 

Im not agreeing with either of you necessarily, just saying everyone has their own opinion and is entiteled to it.

 

Agreed but i am not the one not follwoing common moral conducts or the one asking for other not to be judgemental.

 

I think alot of people like to judge and make accusations and judgements without even thinking. To say that someone should just not get married if they're not going to be monogamous is ridiculous.

I said not to marry or atleast to warn their partner, its about honesty.

 

Most people that get married don't plan to cheat on their spouses. YES, there ARE some people that have never been capable of monogamy, but most people that get married do so because , at the time, they think they are doing the right thing and intend to be faithful, but then things happen down the line and they find themselves doing something they'd never imagined, and many times, morality aside on whether they should have cheated to begin with, once the deed has been done, it's not just so easy to be all "well, lets go confess everything to my wife now so she can divorce me, take my kids, ruin me financially, and upset my whole life" It's irrelevant whether or not you think that the MM deserves it or not, they obviously don't want to disrupt the family life or else they wouldnt try an affair that they tried to keep secret.

 

Remember when you said ppl should think before they talk? that applies to to their actions. There is just no excuse, they knew the commitment when they were about to marry, now they must abide to their decition or decide to leave, but cheating? theres just no excuse, i believe ppl can and will do mistakes along their lifes, but when i am refering to cheating in this context i am refering to Affairs, that not the same than a one night thing that happened when someone was stonned, drunk, and allucinating, or whatever, and Affair is a constant cheating on a daily basis, this as no excuse at all, this forces ppl to life a lie, this shows lack of respect, honestly, if my wife would confess to me that she cheated me on this or that occation i would be able to forgive her... (considering the situation of the marriage at the time) but an Affair? that means i would have been cheated in all fronts, emotionaly and physicaly on a daily basis, theres no excuse for that.

 

I never imagined I would ever be an OW. One night, a man I had long had a crush on but resolved to never be involved with due to his being married, kissed me out of the blue after I drunkenly admitted to him I found him attractive and then immediately apolgoized for saying this to him. But after that kiss, forget it. The floodgates of emotion opened up and I found myself deper and deeper in a situation that was never going to end up anywhere good, but these things happen. No one plans it, no one dreams of it or wants it or hopes to be a part of an affair one day. Who they hell would rightfully WANT an affair? Who wants to have to lie and sneak around and feel guilty when they see their family? But people do it, because people are emotional creatures and you will never know how hard it is to change certain situations unless you are in that person's shoes. Never.

 

Actually let me share a history with you, i once fall in love with a woman friend, she admitted she had fallen in love for me as well, she was willing to be the OW, wanna know what i decided? i decided not to turn her into my OW, because i actually loved her, and for me, this would be lack of respect for her and my wife. I decided i would not have anything with her until i left home, it was 9 months of suffering. But you know what? i feel good with my decision, i feel i respected everyone including myself, can you say the same?

[Reggie]

With all due respect, you are just as judgemental as the OP. It's called "an opinion" or "your beliefs" when you say what you think about cheating, but it's called "judgemental" when the OP says her bit? Tht doesnt sound quite right now does it.

 

Im not agreeing with either of you necessarily, just saying everyone has their own opinion and is entiteled to it.

 

I think alot of people like to judge and make accusations and judgements without even thinking. To say that someone should just not get married if they're not going to be monogamous is ridiculous. Most people that get married don't plan to cheat on their spouses. YES, there ARE some people that have never been capable of monogamy, but most people that get married do so because , at the time, they think they are doing the right thing and intend to be faithful, but then things happen down the line and they find themselves doing something they'd never imagined, and many times, morality aside on whether they should have cheated to begin with, once the deed has been done, it's not just so easy to be all "well, lets go confess everything to my wife now so she can divorce me, take my kids, ruin me financially, and upset my whole life" It's irrelevant whether or not you think that the MM deserves it or not, they obviously don't want to disrupt the family life or else they wouldnt try an affair that they tried to keep secret.

 

I never imagined I would ever be an OW. One night, a man I had long had a crush on but resolved to never be involved with due to his being married, kissed me out of the blue after I drunkenly admitted to him I found him attractive and then immediately apolgoized for saying this to him. But after that kiss, forget it. The floodgates of emotion opened up and I found myself deper and deeper in a situation that was never going to end up anywhere good, but these things happen. No one plans it, no one dreams of it or wants it or hopes to be a part of an affair one day. Who they hell would rightfully WANT an affair? Who wants to have to lie and sneak around and feel guilty when they see their family? But people do it, because people are emotional creatures and you will never know how hard it is to change certain situations unless you are in that person's shoes. Never.

Wow, must be tough to be so powerless. Just like a leaf blown around by the wind. You could not help it. Sad(that's a judgement, BTW).

[GreenEyedLady]

Reading the posts in this forum always depresses me. It seems like most of the responses are practical, socially-acceptable reprimands for people struggling with their feelings for someone who happens to already be attached.

 

I don't get why we can't be more open-minded and consider the fact that these people may actually be finding a meaningful connection with another person (regardless of whether they are already in a relationship). There are a lot of cool people in the world, and confining yourself to a strict 1-lover existence might mean you're missing out on what life has to offer.

 

Who says that humans are even supposed to be monogamous? Many societies aren't. I'm just tired of judgmental people who try to make others feel guilty for natural, human instincts and feelings they are having towards someone else. I don't think these strong feelings should be suppressed, and I don't think they are anything to feel guilty for. Just my 2 cents.

 

I'm new here, and just opening a discussion.. what does everyone think?

 

I think that people shouldn't judge period.

 

But I think that people should try their best to do the right thing too.

 

Life is complicated. To balance both is not always easy.

[infatuationoftheday]

I apologize if this was insensitive for people who have been on the other side of infidelity. Thank you everyone for your insight, I enjoyed reading all of it and I definitely learned a lot from the different viewpoints. I appreciate you all taking the time to answer.

 

<3

[Reggie]

I don't think it's a matter of being open-minded or not.. I just think it's impossible for 2 people to be faithful all their life to the same person.. if they are.. then one of them have long settled for a monotonous, routine life and they're OK with it.. it's that simple in my mind.

 

It doesn't make sense to me. I think that it's about the same percentage for humans to be monogamous as for the animals.. (extremely rare).

 

A lot of women/men out there THINK that their partner has never cheated .. they just never CAUGHT them..

Well, Liz, which is it , impossible or able to settle? I would love a monotonous, stable lovelife. Life is full of tradeoffs.

[Island Girl]

I've decided that the kids across the street are much more respectable, responsible, easy going, and productive than my own. Infact the more time I spend with them the less attatched to my own kids I become. I've spent alot of time wondering what it would be like if those kids were mine. I've changed my mind about being the mother of my children, certainly NO ONE should fault me, and I have no reason to feel guilty for my feelings.

 

If you wanted respectable, responsible, productive children you should have raised them to be.

 

Now that you have screwed up you still refuse to address the problem which is obviously how you parent. You have an 11 year old that is living with a mother that does not want to put in the effort. That is sad.

 

And you should feel guilty for holding your children accountable for your own mistakes. You are the one responsible so you ARE at fault.

 

Now instead of taking the reigns and figuring out what YOU need to be doing differently as a parent (obviously you aren't happy with the results of what you have been doing) you are daydreaming about how you wish they would be.

 

Sorry OP -- off topic

[Lookingforward]

If you wanted respectable, responsible, productive children you should have raised them to be.

 

Now that you have screwed up you still refuse to address the problem which is obviously how you parent. You have an 11 year old that is living with a mother that does not want to put in the effort. That is sad.

 

And you should feel guilty for holding your children accountable for your own mistakes. You are the one responsible so you ARE at fault.

 

Now instead of taking the reigns and figuring out what YOU need to be doing differently as a parent (obviously you aren't happy with the results of what you have been doing) you are daydreaming about how you wish they would be.

 

Sorry OP -- off topic

 

Apparently you don't recognise sarcasm when it's posted

[infatuationoftheday]

I think Ifwishes' post was metaphorical. I understand where she was coming from, but I'm not so sure it applies. Love for your children is different than the love you feel for another adult.. right? I have to agree with Lizzie on this.. I think we are just fighting against natural instincts when we force ourselves to be monogamous.

Who hasn't thought of being with someone else, at some point in their relationship? I know it's terrible when an affair happens, since you become jealous and possessive over your lover and think you have complete control over their lives and thoughts, but if both people were content and satisfied, affairs wouldn't happen. I'm sure this is a belabored point, and I won't beat it to death. I will admit I was in a strange mindset when I wrote the original post, and was trying to prove a personal point. I won't tell anyone what is right for them, but for me, eternal monogamy seems like a fairy tale.

[pelicanpreacher]

Say your spouse or lover adopts the same attitude you have. How secure be making any level of commitment to a relationship with this person? You'd have to be comfortable living the remainder of your days like "Liz". Of course she has her reasons for doing so and its a lifestyle that works for her but the question that begs is...can you walk the walk and talk the talk?

[infatuationoftheday]

Say your spouse or lover adopts the same attitude you have. How secure be making any level of commitment to a relationship with this person? You'd have to be comfortable living the remainder of your days like "Liz". Of course she has her reasons for doing so and its a lifestyle that works for her but the question that begs is...can you walk the walk and talk the talk?

 

 

Yeah... I'm definitely a hypocrite, and would be hurt if my boyfriend thought or acted like I do. I'm just exploring other ideas here, maybe trying to justify my thoughts. Thanks for your opinion, every little bit helps to guilt me into the nunnery.

[Trimmer]

I think Ifwishes' post was metaphorical. I understand where she was coming from, but I'm not so sure it applies. Love for your children is different than the love you feel for another adult.. right? I have to agree with Lizzie on this.. I think we are just fighting against natural instincts when we force ourselves to be monogamous.

I can see this point, and I wouldn't even argue against it. After the last 4 years of my life, I see things very differently than I did before that time.

 

I know I'm just restating some of what has been said, but in my opinion, 'the inability to be monogamous' is a separate thing from 'justifying having an affair.' If you think you are unable to be monogamous, then I say the same thing I say to people who don't want to have kids: more power to you!

 

However, that doesn't translate directly to 'having an affair is justifiable,' and even if I grant Lizzie's point that maybe it's (nearly?) impossible - or at least immensely difficult - to commit to one person for life, I differ strongly with her in that I believe it is wrong to stand before someone and promise "I will be faithful" and then break that promise and lie to them about it.

 

So to summarize, having an affair, and then justifying it by saying "well, it's impossible to be monogamous anyway" is mixing issues. If you find it impossible to be monogamous, fine, but that does not preclude you from being honest, nor is it an excuse, after the fact, for being dishonest.

 

Someone who has an affair and then justifies it with 'humans can't be monogamous' is just covering up the pertinent truth, which is "I don't have the courage or honor to keep a promise and be honest with the person I made that promise to." I find nothing "romantic" in that.

 

I have immensely more respect for someone who recognizes they cannot be monogamous and leaves a committed relationship (or avoids getting into one in the first place) to pursue a different life, than I do for someone who has an affair behind a partner's back.

[agate]

I think one reason why people have such differing ideas and beliefs pertaining to this subject is because no two people come from the same place, same experiences, and often, the same religious beliefs. I have seen a lot of posts here that condem the people who have found themselves in a lifestyle that is different from the norm spout morality like it is a universal truth. It isn't. There are people here from so many walks of life and i find it sad that there isn't more respect shown.

[pelicanpreacher]

Yeah... I'm definitely a hypocrite, and would be hurt if my boyfriend thought or acted like I do. I'm just exploring other ideas here, maybe trying to justify my thoughts. Thanks for your opinion, every little bit helps to guilt me into the nunnery.

 

I'm not trying to guilt you into anything but just hoping you'll look deep before you leap. If you can accept taking exactly what you dish out then there is no problem with holding to your mindset. As long as you are perfectly satisfied living a superficial lifestyle by refraining from devoting your heart and soul to any one relationship that you're in you should be safe from harm. If not then then I think you might hurt yourself worse than you help yourself in the direction you're taking. That said, pay your money and take your chances!

[Trimmer]

I think one reason why people have such differing ideas and beliefs pertaining to this subject is because no two people come from the same place, same experiences, and often, the same religious beliefs. I have seen a lot of posts here that condem the people who have found themselves in a lifestyle that is different from the norm spout morality like it is a universal truth. It isn't. There are people here from so many walks of life and i find it sad that there isn't more respect shown.

So, just to be clear, are you equating an affair with "finding oneself in a lifestyle that is different from the norm?"

 

Again, I make no judgment about people who choose not to marry, people who would be considered promiscuous, people who openly engage in relationships with multiple partners, etc. My problem with an affair is THE LIE. That's the universal truth that I have a moral problem with.

 

Is there a "walk of life" that you know of in which it is morally OK to unambiguously and intimately pledge both your trust and your trustworthiness to another, then completely breach that trust and justify it by calling it a "lifestyle" choice? In what culture, in what "walk of life" is that considered not to be a big deal?

[OWoman]

So, just to be clear, are you equating an affair with "finding oneself in a lifestyle that is different from the norm?"

 

Again, I make no judgment about people who choose not to marry, people who would be considered promiscuous, people who openly engage in relationships with multiple partners, etc. My problem with an affair is THE LIE. That's the universal truth that I have a moral problem with.

 

Is there a "walk of life" that you know of in which it is morally OK to unambiguously and intimately pledge both your trust and your trustworthiness to another, then completely breach that trust and justify it by calling it a "lifestyle" choice? In what culture, in what "walk of life" is that considered not to be a big deal?

 

Trimmer, your argument assumes that Ms are founded on that "unambiguous and intimate pledge of both trust and trustworthiness to another". Many M vows - civil, rather than religious ones - make no mention of the "forsaking all others" bit and even in religious Ms wher both parties SAY those words, how many of them actually mean everythign they're saying at the time? And here I'm not talking about lying to your partner about your intentions; I'm talking about the routine hypocrisy that allows non-practicing, non-religious or outrightly atheist people to marry in churches or juma'a or shul, happily repeating pledges to a god they don't believe in in front of hundreds of friends and family members who know they don't believe, and a partner who knows of (and possibly shares in) their unbelief, simply because that's the "done thing". Everyone buys into that - even the priest / rabbi / imam in all likelihood knows that, just as he's never seen the couple before they arrived wanting to marry, he's likely never to see them again (unless for christening / baptism / funeral purposes down the track). Nobody beats them up for having "lied" about that - it's accepted that that's what one does. So how does one draw the line as to which "likes" in a religious wedding ceremony are acceptable, post hoc, and which are not? Why is "society" hard on some, but soft on others? Surely one shoudl be consistent, and either say anyone making any pledge should mean (and believe) every single word they utter, and not tolerate any lies of any shade, or accept that it's all just ritual and done to appease family expectations and none of it carries any meaning beyond that imbued by explicit agreement between the couple?

[agate]

The reason i called it a lifestyle is because being in an A Does change your lifestyle, at least for Some . An op cannot tell everyone they are in love, what they do with their spare time, that they are even SEEING anyone, often times even to those closest to them. At least this has been my experience. As for breaking a vow etc. I have not done so and what my mm chooses to do is up to him. My mm And i don't believe in the god the vow was made to and the W Is an athiest. I know, i'm a heathen.

[loveORlogic]

As for breaking a vow etc. I have not done so and what my mm chooses to do is up to him. My mm And i don't believe in the god the vow was made to and the W Is an athiest. I know, i'm a heathen.

 

So you actually believe you are not responsible in your MM choice? you actually believe you have no responsibility in the affair?

And is cheating and lies less important because your MM or you dont believe in Vow´s?

Thats BS. Incredible the justifications the human mind is able to find.

 

And this cumming from a person that some post above was venting about lack of respect showned by others, this is just amazing.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

I think Ifwishes' post was metaphorical. I understand where she was coming from, but I'm not so sure it applies. Love for your children is different than the love you feel for another adult..

 

My point isn't so much about love as it is about commitment. As far as love is concerned, that overwhelmed feeling of love and wonder in the first of any relationship is much like the feelings of love you have for an infant. In each stage of childhood and R's this love changes. Its not unexpected. I chose motherhood and marriage and commited to them.

 

With marriage however you do have the option to leave when you can no longer honor that commitment. Choosing to manipulate another's life for your own purposes is WRONG! Especially when you know you would not like for it to be done to you. Nothing, absolutely nothing comes without a price. If you can no longer honor your commitment then man up, redefining your definition of the relationship is a cowards way out.

[The_411]

There are some intersting points being made.

 

I wonder why people bother getting married in the first place.

 

Humans aren't hard coded to be monogamous.

 

 

However, there's something to be said to making and honoring your commitments.

[White Flower]

I think that people shouldn't judge period.

 

But I think that people should try their best to do the right thing too.

 

Life is complicated. To balance both is not always easy.

Well said GEL.

 

I've always been open-minded and rarely, if ever, judge people for affairs or anything else. I do, however, judge irrationality.

 

Sometimes violence is caused by a bi-polar condition...an affair happens due to what Grogster pointed out as an emotional disconnection within the M. Whatever the 'problem' is, it is usually due to a symptom that led to that situation. People don't just 'cheat' because they are 'bad'.

 

When these situations happen people will often do or try a multitude of things before fixing it or 'doing the right thing'. Some will have 'the exit affair' while others will have a lifetime of affairs. Judging only keeps them in their secret world and prevents them from dealing with it.

 

Hope I'm not going off on a tangent here, but oftentimes I wonder if our society has just become too selfish; too big. So many times I hear that one or the other doesn't want to leave a bad marriage because of the fear of losing everything or half of everything. If we all just lived well below our means we would not have this fear. Perhaps in the back of our (married) minds one or both partners invests in the 'dream' and when it becomes too big the divorce also becomes too big. Men especially feel overly guilty that the housewife will lose her insurance and cannot get it on her own or his kids will make him feel guilty that she now has to live in a small condo as a divorced woman. Is he supposed to remain terribly unhappy just so his kids will be happy that their mother remains in a huge house? One that is much too big for her when her H dies and she has to downsize into a condo at that point anyway? None of this makes sense to me anymore.

 

And I have such a hard time with BSs who feel a commitment must be honored even after the other has fallen out of love. I could never insist my H stay with me if he did not love me. That is absolutely selfish and wrong. It is irrational.

[pelicanpreacher]

Well said GEL.

 

I've always been open-minded and rarely, if ever, judge people for affairs or anything else. I do, however, judge irrationality.

 

Sometimes violence is caused by a bi-polar condition...an affair happens due to what Grogster pointed out as an emotional disconnection within the M. Whatever the 'problem' is, it is usually due to a symptom that led to that situation. People don't just 'cheat' because they are 'bad'.

 

When these situations happen people will often do or try a multitude of things before fixing it or 'doing the right thing'. Some will have 'the exit affair' while others will have a lifetime of affairs. Judging only keeps them in their secret world and prevents them from dealing with it.

 

Hope I'm not going off on a tangent here, but oftentimes I wonder if our society has just become too selfish; too big. So many times I hear that one or the other doesn't want to leave a bad marriage because of the fear of losing everything or half of everything. If we all just lived well below our means we would not have this fear. Perhaps in the back of our (married) minds one or both partners invests in the 'dream' and when it becomes too big the divorce also becomes too big. Men especially feel overly guilty that the housewife will lose her insurance and cannot get it on her own or his kids will make him feel guilty that she now has to live in a small condo as a divorced woman. Is he supposed to remain terribly unhappy just so his kids will be happy that their mother remains in a huge house? One that is much too big for her when her H dies and she has to downsize into a condo at that point anyway? None of this makes sense to me anymore.

 

And I have such a hard time with BSs who feel a commitment must be honored even after the other has fallen out of love. I could never insist my H stay with me if he did not love me. That is absolutely selfish and wrong. It is irrational.

 

Although I agree with you on most points there have been some recent posters who've had an affair or wish to have an affair for no other reason than they'd like to see what it's like to be intimate with another man or have some sort of internal crisis of faith (ie, midlife crisis) that motivates them to seek validation outside the marriage. In these instances, though the marriage is sound on its face, infidelity cannot and should not be blamed on the commonly preconceived notion that something was missing in the marital relationship.

 

As a side note, I find it somewhat callous for an individual to throw away a longterm relationship / marriage for a younger better looking individual after their partner has invested the most productive time of their life to help build the life both are living just because someone else can turn their head around. What's the point of doing all that heavy lifting if this is the inevitable end game to all that effort. JMO!

[Trimmer]

And I have such a hard time with BSs who feel a commitment must be honored even after the other has fallen out of love. I could never insist my H stay with me if he did not love me. That is absolutely selfish and wrong. It is irrational.

So if you assert that it's selfish and wrong for a BS to expect the MP to act in a way that is not genuine and honest, in order to satisfy the the BS' relationship needs, will you also grant that it is selfish and wrong of the MP to engage in an affair with an OP to meet the MP's relationship needs, and then act in a way that is not genuine and honest in hiding it from the BS?

 

My point is not that every "vow" is sacred to the letter - I don't believe any more than anyone else that you can promise to love someone forever. I grant you and OWoman that point. My point is that when you say to someone "I am with you only" - whether that is in a marriage or as BF/GF or whatever, everyone knows what that means. This whole squirming around and retroactively claiming that "Oh, but it was a civil ceremony, and I didn't specifically say that I would forsake all others, and even if I did, everyone knows that the vows are all BS and discardable anyway..." is such a fatuous argument, here again I need that 'astonished' emoticon...

 

It's basic human decency - connection at a human level. "I'm with you" means I'm not going to pursue anyone else. After losing my youthful innocence over the last few years, I no longer expect anyone to be able to realistically promise to love me forever. However, I do still expect (and I don't think this naive) that if I'm with a "committed" partner - whether we have spoken marriage "vows" or not - that neither of us is going to pursue others.

 

Trimmer, your argument assumes that Ms are founded on that "unambiguous and intimate pledge of both trust and trustworthiness to another". Many M vows - civil, rather than religious ones - make no mention of the "forsaking all others" bit and even in religious Ms wher both parties SAY those words, how many of them actually mean everythign they're saying at the time? And here I'm not talking about lying to your partner about your intentions; I'm talking about the routine hypocrisy that allows non-practicing, non-religious or outrightly atheist people....

Well, actually, I am talking specifically about lying to your partner about your intentions, so I don't have a lot to say about the relationship between non-religious people and vows taken in a church, etc. My argument doesn't even have to presuppose that I'm talking talking about marriages, specifically - my points apply to any committed relationship.

 

The pledge of trust and intimacy I'm talking about is simply the joining together of two people in a relationship, who decide - whether forever or "for now" - to commit to each other and only each other. Whether it's just having "the exclusivity talk" or whether it is vows in front of family and God, is there really any ambiguity about the idea that two people in a relationship means they intend to be faithful to each other?

 

Again, I'm talking about basic human decency and fundamental connection - am I really off-base to think that fidelity is inherently a part of a partner-relationship? Is it really the case that "none of it carries any meaning beyond that imbued by explicit agreement..." so I have to be sure I say "now, the fact that we have agreed to be exclusive BF&GF/committed partners/married/whatever - let's just be explicit about the ground rules... Do we agree that this means we are not going to f**k around with anyone else, or are we keeping that option open?"

 

And in your world where vows are meaningless, and everyone knows that, and a wedding is an empty, hollow ritual and facade for all involved, what good would that do? I still seems that you would claim that even given such a discussion, "who can every be held to such a promise?"

 

I'm not asking for a vow, I'm not trying to parse the wording of a promise, or mitigate the value of that promise because of where it was made or according to the religious belief (or not) of the person promising, or "what everyone believes." All I'm asking for is basic human decency from someone who claimed to care about me. Fall out of love with me? Fine, it will hurt, but I can understand it. Decide I'm not the person you want any more? Again, fine - maybe I have changed or maybe you have, or both. Leave me because you don't care any more, or you are numb? Again, I'll hurt, but eventually I can make sense of it.

 

Pursue a relationship with someone else and stay with me while lying to me about it? I just can't make sense of that.