1Yoyo Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 I agree, thanks supermom. Yo Link to post Share on other sites
InmannRoshi Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Babies are miracles in my opinion, no matter what circumstance. Not fair to you to predict her and her children, grandchildren's lives like that. All those men sitting on death row were once "God's little miracles" too. Hate to disrupt the Hallmark Sentiments, but the the only thing seperating "God's little miracles" from a "Menace to Society" is about 18 years of growing up with selfish, crappy parents who have kids for no other reason than they think their "clock is ticking" or "once I have the kid he'll change". No one is entitled to have children, and I could really care less about anyone's "clock" (whatever the hell that is). Population isn't a problem in this world. Children growing up in crappy environments for 18 years and filling our prisons with disfuntional people is. Link to post Share on other sites
supermom Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Babies ARE miracles. All those men sitting on death row were once "God's little miracles" too. Hate to disrupt the Hallmark Sentiments, but the the only thing seperating "God's little miracles" from a "Menace to Society" is about 18 years of growing up with selfish, crappy parents who have kids for no other reason than they think their "clock is ticking" or "once I have the kid he'll change" and they are somehow entitled to one. Yeah, they made the choice to break the law, not their parents. Everyone has a choice. I also believe that everyone are God's children. I'm not that religious but I do believe that. There are people who grow up in crappy lives and not repeat it in theirs. For example, I grew up with a Mom who [/i]was a drug addict (she has since been clean for about 15 years) I had abusive stepdads as well. I don't do drugs and I don't abuse my child. I made the choice to not repeat history. I MADE A CHOICE and so can others. People who blame their parents for their poor choices are just making excuses and not owning up to their own mistakes. My opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
supermom Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 How many children do you have? Link to post Share on other sites
InmannRoshi Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Throwing the exception to the rule in annecdotal evidence doesn't disprove the point. Surely you realize that statisically you are the exception. There are volumes upon volumes of studies that show that victims of abuse, addiction and broken homes are significantly more likely to raise abusers and victims of abuse .. and I'm sure they all thought they were going to be exceptions as well. You may consider bad parenting an "excuse" but I believe that 95% of our problems in society rise from people who have absolutely no business having kids, having kids. Link to post Share on other sites
supermom Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I don't think she is abusing her child, just had one from a MM. IMHO you are going way off the deap end with this. I do understand what you are saying, but I also think that your examples are too harsh for this subject. I say babies are miracles, because if you've never had one, it's hard to understand. When that little person that is a part of you is born, you momentarily forget all the problems you have and just stare into their little new eyes, see how they look like you, smell their baby smell..their coos. Oh I wish my 2 yr old was still a baby lol! Yeah, the situation for withbaby sucks, but there is a good thing out of it. Her baby. If the attitute sucks the baby will indeed suffer, but if you turn it around and raise that baby with the best intentions, attitude and love, whos to say the child won't grow up to do great things? Sometimes you just have to see the positives in things. Also, if you have never had children, I can understand how hard it is to agree with my posts. Having children is like no other experience I've ever had. Link to post Share on other sites
InmannRoshi Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Originally posted by supermom How many children do you have? None, does that disprove my point any? Its the ULTIMATE selfless act to choose to not have kids in a world with overpopulation, finite resources and a society where you have to take a test to drive a car but any idiot can have kids. Everyone thinks that they are "entitled" to have children, and usually its for pure selfish or ego driven reasons (Oh, I wonder what they'll look like. The baby will settle him down. I'll show my mother that I can be an adult). I'm not saying parenthood can't be a noble act, but here's a rule of thumb I follow .... if you couldn't pass a screening process for an adoption agency, then you really shouldn't be having kids. Not everyone should be procreating. I'm sure babies are cute and wonderful and amazing experience, and I'm sure 99% of bad parents probably felt the same way when their kids were born and their baby made gurgling noises and googly eyes. It doesn't change the fact that they turned out to be bad parents. I have 2 nephews and 3 nieces. I've been around them enough to know that kids have an amazing ability to read between the lines and look past whatever BS rhetoric you feed them. In this case, when the child says "Who's my daddy and where is he?", she's going to pick up on the fact that her daddy is out of the picture and doesn't want to anything do with her no matter how you try to sugarcoat it. When she grows up later and finds out that her daddy is a married man with another family and children of his own, she'll feel like the dirty little secret she was born into. I'm not expecting her to be the picture of self esteem from that point on. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I'm with supermom on this one-you're way off base Inman. The sins of the father (and the mother) aren't going to poison this child-there are many, many happy well adjusted children born out of wedlock, and out of affairs. Link to post Share on other sites
InmannRoshi Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Yeah, I’m way off base even though I have scientific research on my side. • 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census) • 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes • 85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes (Source: Center for Disease Control) • 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.) • 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.) • 75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes (Source: Rainbows for all God`s Children.) • 70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988) • 85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992) These statistics translate to mean that children from a fatherless home are: • 5 times more likely to commit suicide. • 32 times more likely to run away. • 20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders. • 14 times more likely to commit rape: This applies to boys of course. • 9 times more likely to drop out of high school. • 10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances. • 9 times more likely to end up in a state-operated institution. • 20 times more like to end up in prison. http://www.menweb.org/throop/nofather/dart.html And this is just the stuff we can quantify. We can't even get into less measurable claims like "% of girls who end up with a-hole guys grow up without a father". Girls without fathers reach puberty and menstruate earlier.. http://www.menstruation.com.au/periodpages/withoutdad.html Girls without fathers are more likely to become sexually active at an earlier age and have higher rates of teen pregnancy http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993724 http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20030719/fob2.asp Read the studies done by Judith Wallerstein. Google her, there are tons of articles about her studies0 shows that children of broken families are more likely to suffer from everything from substance abuse to an inability to resolve conflict. But perhaps the best way to sum it up is with the words of Chris Rock… Women always say "You don't need no man to help you raise your child, you don't need man" Shut the #%#* up with that bull#%#!. Yeah, you can do it but that doesn't mean that's the way its to be done. You can drive a car with your feet if you want to, but that don't make it a good #%@ing idea. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I don't have children either Inman (don't want them either) and I do agree with you about too many idiots producing too many children-but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Link to post Share on other sites
zarabeth1973 Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 And I thought I was a little research geek. Perhaps Inman with all that knowledge you can start a foundation for fatherless children. I know my life sucks all because I grew up with out a daddy. Damn it, I knew I should have blamed all the dumb ass things I did on him. Now I have a cope out when I **** up!! Did I mention my SINGLE mother a State Employee raised me very very well. No ooops sorry. But maybe she should have not kicked out the dumb bastard that raped me from the time I was an infant till I was seven. Are you a defense attorney????? Because WOW you should be you have quite the case for a downward departure I am sure we would love to have you defend our rapists when they had no daddy "well your honor he can't be blamed for raping half the city, it was his dads fault for not being there to tell his dumb ass it was wrong" I am sorry I am not trying to make fun of you but its just soooo easy. LMAO I am still laughing at you.....I can't even type I am laughing at my desk so hard. Well, I will let my baby girl know that when she gets to the age of doing bad things "its ok honey, blame it on you not having a daddy, you'll get off, don't listen to anyone mommy works with when it comes to the law, blame it on daddy not being there." I don't need a man to raise this beautiful child growing in me I need my God to help me thats it, I needed a man to assist me in getting pregnant thats it. And for anyone to tell me otherwise needs to go back sit down in front of their tv's and continue watching Leave it to ****ing beaver..... Get a clue. Woman are now liberated we don't need a man to help around the house and discipline the kiddies.... Just a little insight on the statistics you based this on. I work with convicted felons everyday I am actually an advocate for them as well let me tell you. If a person is in the Federal System they have a Federal Guideline for sentencing that a judge cannot depart from with out SERIOUS circumstances. Defense Attorneys will tell their clients to state that they have all types of things to base the reasons for their crime Drugs (say you are an addict you will get into a program that once you graduate you take time off your sentence, or say this or say that to get downward departure.....) Do you really think that a man goes out and rapes a woman because he didn't have a Dad???? Hell no. The Lord gave humans will, to use and exercise on our own, WE make our decisions good and bad anything else is a cop out and and the people I work with are more than happy to say it was someone else's fault besides theirs when explaining why they committed their crimes, which provides the people that compile this info for your precious statistics. Isn't it easier to say well I did this because I didn't have a daddy, than to face up and admit you did wrong on your own???? Very childish and immature actually, but I do respect your statistics God knows we don't have enough of them to go around... blah blah blah I am still laughing and I want to send this to my colleagues as they will get a hoot out of some person that actually believes in those statistics. Talk to a real criminal get the facts for real. On the suicide rates get some damn prozac every one has problems get over them or get medicated! Grow Up!!!! Stop blaming others and especially not having a dad. Link to post Share on other sites
ringo Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 But I don't condone for a second that it's right to create children out of wedlock.... I like the percentage table - however, what is it for children that grow up without mothers? There are a lot of situations, like divorce or even death where parents must raise there children ALONE. It's the choices they make that will mold their children to be the best they can become. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 But I don't condone for a second that it's right to create children out of wedlock.... Huh? Can you elaborate? Is this a religious belief? Link to post Share on other sites
1Yoyo Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 In the past I thought it was wrong too, to have a child out of wedlock. That was long before I realized I don't "need" a man to help me raise a child. I have seen MANY children raised (in my profession) without both the mother and father and these children are fine. Yes, in an ideal situation, a mother and father would be nice, but I have waited long enough, doing the "right" thing to have a child. If I wait any longer, my chances grow slim, each year. If it so happens that I am not able to have children, I will adopt. Adoption is a great idea as well. Is this wrong too?? I would be a single mom in this situation. The opinion of others matters not at this point, I have made up my mind and I am going with it. I think my point that this "might" be an option, was over looked. I did not say I would go through with it, the MM being the father of my child, I said maybe. He is willing to help me. become a mother, I think its a great thing for him to do. If, I/we go through with this, why is this any different from going to a sperm bank? Is it just because I know who the father is? Yo Link to post Share on other sites
InmannRoshi Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 zarabeth Since you're in such a jovial mood, you'll get a kick out of this ... you just spent an unfathomable amount of your life typing out 654 words (in difficult to read, run-on-sentence form) to dispute a claim I didn't make. I never said people aren't responsible for their behavour as adults. I pointed out correalations between behavour of children who grew up without fathers and those who did. Whether they are responsible for what they do as adults is a completely seperate issue and can debated on its own. I didn't spend much time gathering those statistics ... it took 5 minutes of Google searching, because the research that suggests that children without fathers are more at risk for those behavours is well documented, overwhelming and easy to find. Laughter is contagious, and I must confess I got a giggle out of someone who claims to have a background in statistics and research, but comes to debate with nothing to back up their arguments other than anecdotal evidence. Please, bring your statistical bacground and arguments over to the Personal Fitness forum. We could use your scientific eye. Share with us how the Grapefruit Diet is a proven great way to lose weight because you lost 3 pounds. Link to post Share on other sites
ringo Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I should have said, MM/MW having children out of wedlock..... My H cheated and a child resulted from this "one night stand". His family, her family, friends - everyone has pity on this W for having to raise this child alone. HELLO!!! She spread her legs to a MM, and obviously w/o BC!!! She did this to herself (w/help from sperm donor) But I don't think this child will be unloved or end up messed up because "Daddy" isn't around. Like I said, it's the choices we make that mold our children... not the lack of this and that. In my case - I don't pity the birth mother, or the sperm donor (my H) - I pity that poor child whom is incident in all of this. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Please, bring your statistical bacground and arguments over to the Personal Fitness forum. We could use your scientific eye. Share with us how the Grapefruit Diet is a proven great way to lose weight because you lost 3 pounds Now now..... Truth is, one can easily find statistics and studies to back up their theory(not disputing yours) I find it interesting how you would refer to the act of impregnanting a women as "spreading her legs" Ringo when that's exactly what you did to get your babies. Does having a signed marriage contract with a deadbeat somehow make it more noble? I take offence to that, because I see personally nothing wrong with having a one night stand. Oh sure, it's foolish to not protect yourself-but it's completely anti-empowerment to refer to a woman allowing a man to engage in sexual intercourse with her for her benefit as "spreading her legs" Link to post Share on other sites
ringo Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Breathe Spock... breathe... it's just a statement... Indeed a woman MUST "spread her legs" to get pregnant... this is a scientific fact not my "personal opinion". I never said there was anything wrong with a one-night stand. Your not taking all this personal because you are the OW involved with a MM are you? Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Oh, I'm not perturbed in any way. To me, when you state things like that it implies a strong sense of resentment and bitterness towards the woman who had your husbands baby-I did manage to read your thread in the personal rant about how you weren't going to take his crap anymore, and it makes me worry that you are starting to feel sorry for him by placing your anger on her-when you need to kick his ass. Make sense? I'm tired of hearing people spout about the sanctity of marriage while they're either rutting like a bull in the countryside or their partner is using them as a doormat to wipe the turds off their feet-don't want it to happen to you anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
supermom Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Isn't this her thread? We are arguing about weather or not having kids w/o a daddy will turn them into convicts when we should be giving advise for withbaby right? Where did she go? Link to post Share on other sites
ringo Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Her post was done over a year ago this month. She has no other posts that I can tell from doing a search... Link to post Share on other sites
supermom Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Wow how did it get back on the boards? We've been arguing for nothing? Link to post Share on other sites
1Yoyo Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I don't think we are arguing for nothing. This is a great discussion. Many opinions here. Yo Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Spock Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Really? I don't look at dates when I post.... More than likely someone did a search, or was browsing and happened upon it. Link to post Share on other sites
guest Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Yo I Just had to reply to your post. I was reading and had had to. I don't mean to be down on you but let me rant. I was young when i had my baby my bf of almost 6 yrs took off and I am a single mother. I would never never had pick this I am happy. But it is soo hard. Let me tell you the nightly feeding having the energy to do everthing on like 2-3 hours sleep. going back to work after only 6 weeks maternity leave. Not to mention most infant care is at least $120 a week plus diapers clothes ect. not to mention all the other costs furniture ect. And just the work without having anyone there to help or give you a break when you're baby is up with colic at 3am and you have to go to work at 7. I have never never in my life heard of such a stupid selfish and irresponsible statement in myy life god you're going to f*** up like four lives to have a baby. If you want it so bad just go to a sperm donor. If he really loved you he'd be with you complety. watch him run when you get pregnant. You have no idea how hard it is to be a single mother. If you don't beleave me ask your mom how much she sacrificed to have and raise you guys. Link to post Share on other sites
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