Male friends who are married.

[Chinook]

Well, actually it all went to hell in a hand basket for me too. *sigh*

 

Friday evening was a work related outing. A whole bunch of us went out to dinner and had a few drinks. My friend and a few others turned up later. Needless to say, alcohol flowing... my friend decided to drop his small nuclear bomb.

 

Basically it transpired that 'I was right' too and he has had feelings for me *sigh* and apparently this situation has been like this for nearly six months. I was pretty cross really because I wanted to say 'why now if it's been that long..?' not to mention thinking 'wtf has it achieved by making it explicit and telling me this..?' At least if it was 'just a feeling' I had, I could conveniently ignore it. Once something is said though, I can't unhear it can I..?!

 

I am not entirely sure how to handle this situation now. I like my friend alot, of course I do and we were pretty close. We shared some feelings and some issues that had made me feel not quite as lonely as I had regarding the cancer issue. As Carhill said, these are not casual friends though, these are people who are important to us. For whatever reason they are in our lives.

 

But I don't see any alternative option but to step back and remove myself from the situation now. I received a message from him this morning saying there was a problem and could I please not contact him today and he'll call me tomorrow. So it sounds to me like even if I'm not going there, he's already half way there. To say I'm unhappy about this situation is an understatement.

[Ronni_W]

Chinook and carhill,

I am so sorry to hear that!

 

I think they create their "transference feelings" in their own "vacuum", as it were -- I'm not too sure if what we did (or didn't) do played too great a role. And as Chinook says, likely also that, no matter what steps you take next, they are already there.

 

carhill, at the time, I was in a long-term relationship. My b/f was all along aware of the role I was playing in the guy's life -- as it appears your wife is -- and realized that it was NOT something that I had engineered or encouraged.

I hope your wife will reach same conclusion. Or perhaps you might have to give a "Transference101" overview?

 

Chinook, is there any comfort in the affirmation that your Intuition is working perfectly? <weak smile> Hopefully when he's ready to call, you'll both be able to access the positives of the friendship and he'll see a path that'll allow him to travel back towards "safe ground".

You mentioned his wife and family -- perhaps the best you'll be able to do is suggest individual counseling for him, and then marital once he has gotten his head straight about his crush on you.

 

Again, I feel for you, guys. I do hope that the respective friendships will evolve into something much stronger than ever before and, for carhill, that your wife will be even more understanding and compassionate than you can now even imagine .

 

Hugs to you both...and good wishes to ALL involved.

Ronni

[Ronni_W]

The really confusing part for me (nothing new) was that my wife was right there and didn't notice anything untoward.

I'm not really getting the confusion about your wife's lack of "intuition" over something in which you were (or appear to have been) primarily involved -- perhaps expanding can offer something useful to OP, as well(?) And, of course, only if you wish to expand upon it.

[Chinook]

Hi Ronni

 

I'm not entirely sure what I did or didn't do. I'm kinda disappointed because I thought I was only just at the 'if this is something, we can do something about it' stage. But it seems for him, he went beyond that a while ago. I don't know. I'm not entirely sure that I want to talk to him right now. I have some leave from work at the moment and I'm thinking I may just initiate NC during that time - to allow the dust to settle. It seems to me he's already way ahead with where his head is and he needs somehow to be brought back to earth. I've emailed him a pretty detailed re-run of what was said and in what context and my thoughts on it and I've laid it out specifically that I'm not going there and why. I've also suggested how we go forward and that although it doesn't need to change things with how friendly we are, I will need some time to get my head back on straight (and so does he).

 

Carhill - well, I don't think your wife picked up on things for two reasons. 1) It was happening to you and you had primary involvement. 2) She obviously trusts you. Why would she pick up on anything..?! Also, she may have picked up on it and just isn't saying anything!! :)

[carhill]

Ugh....

 

The "psychic network" connection stuff I can understand, but the hand holding and kissing are pretty obvious, no?

 

I thought this person was "safe" - long time friends, very conservative, pretty distant emotionally (except for the "strange" vibe), and never flirtatious in any way. As part of my detaching process in NC, I chose to dissipate my emotional energy through this person (she was not involved nor was/is aware of anything, including our MC, AFAIK). I figured no signal I would send out would affect her and I figured my signals didn't get out much anyway so I was just doing internal work. I guess I f*cked up

 

OP, I'm sorry to hear of the conflict you now face. I think you can resolve this if you're clear with your friend. He needs to get to the bottom of his feelings. He's likely experienced a form of transference and, if he is in an otherwise healthy marriage, can recover both his feelings and your friendship to their proper level.

 

My issues are a bit different and likely not relevant to the thread outside of the emotional processes and how we view friendships.

 

I want to reiterate that I believe honesty is the best policy and that people are not wrong for how they feel. Your friend has likely behaved properly and not embarrassed you in any way. IMO, he should be commended for his actions (if I'm assuming them correctly) but reminded that he is married and that you, in any event, do not share his feelings (again, I am assuming). This, IMO, would be very helpful to him.

 

You could end the friendship or take a hiatus, but, again, be honest with him. Leaving on a positive note, IMO, will help him recover, as well as leave the door open for a healthy platonic friendship in the future.

 

These are my thoughts. Now back to my mess It'll all work out....

[Ronni_W]

Chinook,

I have reconciled that what I consciously "did" was to show caring, concern, compassion and understanding. And what he (subconsciously) did, in his weakened emotional state, was misinterpret those.

 

I think when one feels scared, despairing and 'alone', it is easy enough for the psyche to grab hold of anything that even vaguely hints that it may offer a return to feeling safe, understood and accepted.

Sort of, it is not specifically 'Chinook' but the environment that Chinook was capable of creating and willing to offer to him. (Something like that.) Not sure if it helps to get your head straight...but it likely was going to happen to him, no matter who was his 'survivor support' woman.

 

Maybe he is in your life BECAUSE of everyone on the planet, you had the perfect type and amount of whatever he needed(?) And, further, that you also have the perfect type and amount of whatever is needed to facilitate this new development to a wonderful, positive conclusion(?)

 

Just throwing out a couple of other things, that came into my head:

Caution about what you put in an email and/or which email address you use -- could be the start of a (misleading) trail of "evidence", should it fall into wrong hands.

 

I do understanding your disappointment, confusion and upset. But also feel to suggest trying to resolve this problem as you would any problem in any platonic relationship -- for example, would you choose NC as "first resort" if your g/f borrowed you brand new silk blouse and never returned it?

I know there are much deeper emotions here, but perhaps the same thing is at stake...the important, platonic relationship.

 

I'm not sure at all. Perhaps it is also about educating him on transference -- help him gain an intellectual understanding of what's going on for him? He likely isn't feeling too pleased with, or proud of, himself, right now, either.

Then maybe I'd try to bring in some appreciation and humour: "Thank you so much for recognizing my compassion, et al. Do you want to see if we can get back to being how we were MINUS anything that will destroy that? You are as cute as a schoolboy...ain't it a shame we're not in high school?" type of stuff.

Maybe even, sorry that you weren't more aware/in tune...joke that maybe you're not such a "veteran survivor" as you both once believed.

 

Again, just throwing stuff out with hope that some tiny thing may be useful.

 

In the meantime, do also make the time to enjoy your vacation from work.

Sending Guidance and Wisdom, more than enough to fulfill your needs and desires.

Ronni

[Lizzie60]

I don't think you're reading too much in this.. I think he wants more than you are willing to give him... Men and women are very much wired differently when it comes to 'friendship'..

 

It takes a 'special kind of guy' to allow platonic friendship in their lives.. most men can't IMO.

 

If I were you I would be very honest about how you feel.. and that you don't want to compromise your friendship.. but IMO it could be a little late for that since he already has crossed the line..

 

But you can always try the 'platonic best friend' attitude... and if you think he can't deal with this.. then you need to drop him.. simple..

[Chinook]

Ugh....

 

The "psychic network" connection stuff I can understand, but the hand holding and kissing are pretty obvious, no?

Oh. Hmm. Well yeah, I would have thought she'd have picked up on that at least a little bit!

 

OP, I'm sorry to hear of the conflict you now face. I think you can resolve this if you're clear with your friend.

There is no conflict now. I'm not going down this path with him and if I can, I will help him resolve his feelings about me and recover his feelings for what he feels about his marriage. I've become acutely aware that we do share some common traumatic experiences, but for both of us they are in the past and that's where they should stay.

 

He needs to get to the bottom of his feelings. He's likely experienced a form of transference and, if he is in an otherwise healthy marriage, can recover both his feelings and your friendship to their proper level.

I think you're right about that but also, I think it will take time. I don't know whether it is transference or not. I have said in my mail to him clarifying things that I think if it weren't for cancer, there wouldn't have been as close a friendship and that's a defining issue in this. That said we're also the sum of our experiences and we can't take that away from each other. I'm not sure I would want to anyhow.

 

I want to reiterate that I believe honesty is the best policy and that people are not wrong for how they feel. Your friend has likely behaved properly and not embarrassed you in any way.

You're right, he did behave properly. The way he told me was a 'I just have to say this and throw it out there because it's messing with my head' thing. I do think maybe he's also looking for some way to resolve this too, not to necessarily take action on it. I hope this is the case as hopefully that will strengthen our bond rather than break it. As for honesty, yes... I have been entirely honest with him and I've made it clear in my note to him that I am committed to his friendship and I want a positive outcome from this - but that's all. It will not now, or ever, go further than that. I felt that it was important to ensure that I re-draw where that line is, so that we both know where it is and it doesn't get crossed again.

 

IMO, he should be commended for his actions (if I'm assuming them correctly) but reminded that he is married and that you, in any event, do not share his feelings (again, I am assuming). This, IMO, would be very helpful to him.

Like I said... hopefully my note will make it clear to him with the way ahead. But to answer your point, even if I did share how he feels, there is no way in this scenario I would act upon it and I would still be taking the same course of action in any case. I have a stronger moral code than I do emotional needs. I simply couldn't bring myself to go out with, sleep with or become emotionally involved with - a married man. Even if he didn't feel guilty or at odds with his feelings, I would do so and not just for me, or him... but for others involved too. I'm single so it would be very easy to get wrapped up in the ideas that single OW tell themselves about not needing to be with him all the time and if he's having the affair that's his business... but the friendship is very important to me and I don't want to change it and more importantly, I don't want my friendship to be the cause of other casualties along the way. I have a very unique viewpoint about cancer and to me, this would be one more facet of how it has inflicted itself upon other people and wrecked other people's lives... I would rather walk away from my friend than to see that happen.

 

You could end the friendship or take a hiatus, but, again, be honest with him. Leaving on a positive note, IMO, will help him recover, as well as leave the door open for a healthy platonic friendship in the future.

 

These are my thoughts. Now back to my mess It'll all work out....

I think to be honest, when he gets my note... the chances are that he will understand completely where I am coming from and he will hopefully see that I'm right. Taking a step back right now isn't just the best thing to do, it's the right thing to do. If he already has problems at home, that to me suggests he is either altering his moods, or actions already and someone has intuitively picked up on it. I'm simply not going to allow any more of that to happen. At the moment, I'm okay. A bit disappointed and I'm going to be trying to ensure that things work out okay - but I'm mindful that with another human being involved, I may not be able to control that outcome how I want.

[Chinook]

I don't think you're reading too much in this.. I think he wants more than you are willing to give him... Men and women are very much wired differently when it comes to 'friendship'..

 

It takes a 'special kind of guy' to allow platonic friendship in their lives.. most men can't IMO.

 

If I were you I would be very honest about how you feel.. and that you don't want to compromise your friendship.. but IMO it could be a little late for that since he already has crossed the line..

 

But you can always try the 'platonic best friend' attitude... and if you think he can't deal with this.. then you need to drop him.. simple..

Hi Lizzie

 

I know, one part of me is like Ronni says and is trying to do the understanding and compassionate thing and another part of me is pretty cynical and thinking 'no, not going there'. I guess we'll see how it pans out now that I sent my note (which went to work - it's a password protected site access which he said he doesn't have access to at home). My plan was when he called to ask him to drop contact until I return to work, read the note and we'll take it from there.

 

I'm pretty sure he can deal with the platonic-best-friend attitude because this is what he's been doing for the last six months. I think a period of 'quiet' and letting the dust settle is needed to get him there though. If not... well, like you said. I would have to walk away. Simple as that. :-(

[Ronni_W]

carhill,

Well, yeah...the hand-holding and kissing SHOULDA been pretty obvious clues TO YOU . But, for what it's worth, I don't perceive it as you having effed up -- you just "did life". Stuff happens.

 

If I am reading what you did not write correctly, then your friend did accurately pick-up on your signals? (It's just a tad too faint to read if those were conscious or subconscious.)

 

If there is some accuracy in my interpretation, then perhaps it will benefit Chinook to hear your plans to "backtrack" to the former level of your friendship -- she may be able to offer similar strategies to her friend, for him to use in his own backtracking (if/when they get to stage of communicating about such matters, that is.)

 

Best o' luck with your "mess" -- believing it will work out is ALWAYS the first clue that it will...and thus, so it shall be .

[carhill]

Kudos to you for your approach, OP. Your friend will discover, if not already known, that he chose his friend well

 

Personally, it sounds like a lot of stuff has taken place in a short time. Affording him the opportunity to digest what has been shared as well as to reflect upon his circumstance and feelings would be very healthy for him. I've seen evidence of this wrt my NC with my old friend. Emotions are clarified; perspectives are established. It's good work. He'll do it

 

BTW, I'm not ignoring comments on my situation, but I'm trying to stay on-topic, and provided my experience as background information. Guess I need to start a few threads and get smacked around myself, eh?

[Ronni_W]

BTW, I'm not ignoring comments on my situation, but

No worries...we (women) intuit EXACTLY what you are doing .

 

But. I am myself very careful about staying OT -- thus far, I do not feel we have strayed. Er...OP, please do let us know when you feel that we are no longer contributing to the matter at hand.

 

Chinook, great job with the note that you sent! I actually do feel that much benefit can come from a 'cool down' period, and Trust that will be the case for you and your friend.

 

Happy Sunday to one and all.

[Chinook]

But. I am myself very careful about staying OT -- thus far, I do not feel we have strayed. Er...OP, please do let us know when you feel that we are no longer contributing to the matter at hand.

I don't have a problem with things straying OT. If the related experiences or words help, then I don't mind them being shared.

 

Chinook, great job with the note that you sent! I actually do feel that much benefit can come from a 'cool down' period, and Trust that will be the case for you and your friend.

Sadly I've spent most of the day thinking about this issue and what happened. I've reflected upon my words and my actions and I've been entirely honest with my friend in my note. But I have also taken a look at what I want for me. The sad fact is, I liked things how they were. I liked the easy banter and the friendly way we talked about some serious issues. But now those things will change and I'm not sure I can maintain the same easy-ness of friendship with someone that I know has/had romantic feelings for me. It's kinda like chatting with the big white elephant in the room which no one talks about. I will probably find that difficult. I think right now, I'm taking consolation that I have made my position clear at least.

[whichwayisup]

You two bonded and shared something that was unfortunate, the cancer, and yes, you two 'were' friends, platonic respectful friends...Sadly, he ruined that completely and now you have to distance yourself from him - Tell him to talk to his wife, to other friends, but not to you anymore.

 

He has feelings for you and that isn't cool. If he is confused, then he needs therapy to help him figure it out, and he also needs to respect you enough to back off and get his feelings in check.

[Lizzie60]

although I agree that he probably has developed feelings for her.. I'm not sure he will not 'agree' to her terms.. then the 'platonic' friendship can last.. but only Chinook will 'know' (feel) if the 'frienship' can go on..

 

If she feels uncomfortable or feels that he's getting more and more emotionally involved.. then she needs to judge the situation and distance herself from him.

[whichwayisup]

IF his feelings take away from his wife, then the friendship has to end. If she feels uncomfortable now that the line has been crossed by him, she may never be able to trust him or get that innocence of the friendship back. I do agree, she has to judge it for herself.

 

A good start though would be for him to introduce her to his wife and family, this way she can bond abit with his wife and maybe that will put a stop to his feelings.

[Ronni_W]

and I'm not sure I can maintain the same easy-ness of friendship with someone that I know has/had romantic feelings for me.

Chinook,

I do understand the decision you're making about that. As I mentioned to carhill, what we believe about a situation usually is pretty accurate.

I'm sorry for the loss of your friendship. I suppose a small bright light is that you are on leave for the next two weeks - at least you'll be able to gain some emotional distance before you need to see him again.

All the best,

Ronni

[Chinook]

IF his feelings take away from his wife, then the friendship has to end.

I agree completely.

 

If she feels uncomfortable now that the line has been crossed by him, she may never be able to trust him or get that innocence of the friendship back. I do agree, she has to judge it for herself.

It's not that I don't trust him exactly. He's a nice guy and I sincerely doubt there is anything untoward in his mind. I don't think he even thought through the consequences of saying what he was saying, let alone thinking about acting on that. But like you said, I don't think I'm going to be able to recover the innocence of the friendship now. That's just me.

[soda]

I don't think you're reading too much in this.. I think he wants more than you are willing to give him... Men and women are very much wired differently when it comes to 'friendship'..

 

It takes a 'special kind of guy' to allow platonic friendship in their lives.. most men can't IMO.

..

 

Well stated.

 

There is truth to this. Men don't get emotionally invested in a friendship in order to maintain a friendship...they are usually looking for something more.

[Chinook]

Well stated.

 

There is truth to this. Men don't get emotionally invested in a friendship in order to maintain a friendship...they are usually looking for something more.

Yeah, I feel kinda stupid about this naivete now. But you live and learn.

[carhill]

Nah, no worries. Not all men are "that" way. You have no way of knowing unless you have experience with the man in everyday life. Your circumstances were special. Perhaps the outcome would've been different if the circumstances had been different. The path you both walked was/is one if an infinite quantity available.

 

A positive view would be that the man considered you enough to be honest with you; perhaps, in his prior emotional state (due to the disease) he did not have the strength. Once he regained his center, his respect for you won out. Human he is; human you are. No one is immune

[soda]

Yeah, I feel kinda stupid about this naivete now. But you live and learn.

 

No reason to feel stupid. It's not always the case. Besides, there's really no way of knowing a person's intentions until he makes them known.

 

In this case, you've been put in a tough situation, but I believe that you're handling very well.

[Chinook]

No reason to feel stupid. It's not always the case. Besides, there's really no way of knowing a person's intentions until he makes them known.

 

In this case, you've been put in a tough situation, but I believe that you're handling very well.

Hi Soda, thanks for the kind words. I saw your post earlier this morning and been thinking about it on and off all day. I know what you're saying. I didn't really know his true intentions until they became explicitly known to me last week. That said, I had a feeling of something (you know..?!) and I guess half the time I'm looking inside to find answers as to why I didn't do anything about it. I think we always look inside to see whether there was anything we could have done to change things, it's natural to reflect on actions/behaviour. The rest of the time, I guess I'm simply disappointed that this will have changed a friendship I valued and it's affected my own feelings about someone I actually liked and cared about.

 

I suppose in some ways it's a loss I'm experiencing and I haven't spoken to my friend since it occurred. I don't know what his viewpoint is or how he's standing with it and to be perfectly honest, I'm not in any rush to find out. But for me I feel disappointed and whenever that happens, I always question whether there was anything I could have done and I don't see how there is.

 

I think at the moment, I'm also trying to take some positives from the fact that I have maintained my own sense of integrity and I have steered him away from at least feeling like he could act on how he was feeling. It was alarming to me that he felt he could act in so far as telling me, let alone anything else. I just feel a little stupid for being so far behind with it - and half of that I guess is a self-confidence issue (i.e. why on earth would anyone be interested in me) which is a whole different thread entirely.

[Chinook]

Nah, no worries. Not all men are "that" way. You have no way of knowing unless you have experience with the man in everyday life. Your circumstances were special. Perhaps the outcome would've been different if the circumstances had been different. The path you both walked was/is one if an infinite quantity available.

 

A positive view would be that the man considered you enough to be honest with you; perhaps, in his prior emotional state (due to the disease) he did not have the strength. Once he regained his center, his respect for you won out. Human he is; human you are. No one is immune

Hi Carhill, I know not all men are that way really. I don't really need to think about the different outcomes or paths that could have been taken (both positive and negative) mainly because the only path which matters, is the one I'm on. I guess as I've just posted to Soda just now, that I'm experiencing a sense of loss for the friend I had and not the friend I am now left with. I didn't see anything in either his words or behaviour up until the last week or so. The asking out for drinks was a major shift in his behaviour which threw the light on for me. It was only at that point I began to question the 'friend' investment and the time and energy given to the similar issues we had.

 

I have to be honest, I wanted to help him because I felt that he was struggling with a lot of issues which I have struggled with very badly over the years of my survivorship and one of the things from that is I tend to be very compassionate, if I can help prevent someone experiencing what I have, I'll do my utmost to do that. In this way it didn't enter my head until last week this may be more for him. I just didn't see it. That's why I feel clueless. I know what you're saying about the being human and yes, I am glad he could be honest ... because it has given me the opportunity to re-draw the boundaries where they should be.

[soda]

Hi Soda, thanks for the kind words. I saw your post earlier this morning and been thinking about it on and off all day. I know what you're saying. I didn't really know his true intentions until they became explicitly known to me last week. That said, I had a feeling of something (you know..?!) and I guess half the time I'm looking inside to find answers as to why I didn't do anything about it. I think we always look inside to see whether there was anything we could have done to change things, it's natural to reflect on actions/behaviour. The rest of the time, I guess I'm simply disappointed that this will have changed a friendship I valued and it's affected my own feelings about someone I actually liked and cared about.

 

I suppose in some ways it's a loss I'm experiencing and I haven't spoken to my friend since it occurred. I don't know what his viewpoint is or how he's standing with it and to be perfectly honest, I'm not in any rush to find out. But for me I feel disappointed and whenever that happens, I always question whether there was anything I could have done and I don't see how there is.

 

I think at the moment, I'm also trying to take some positives from the fact that I have maintained my own sense of integrity and I have steered him away from at least feeling like he could act on how he was feeling. It was alarming to me that he felt he could act in so far as telling me, let alone anything else. I just feel a little stupid for being so far behind with it - and half of that I guess is a self-confidence issue (i.e. why on earth would anyone be interested in me) which is a whole different thread entirely.

 

Sometimes, even with the best of intentions, you can't account for the unexpected. I know that you're disppointed in losing a friend and not being able to anticipate what happened...don't beat yourself up, though. You showed integrity...which is a great thing.