At what point is education no longer beneficial ?

[MaxManwell]

No, my ex father in law owned a brick laying company and he was a millionare. Owned all types of properties. A young brick layer may not start off making alot of money but neither do most people with college degrees.

 

That doesn't make it a high paying profession that just means there is money in business.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

That doesn't make it a high paying profession that just means there is money in business.

 

He parlayed the skills he learned from the profession to create a successful business. The point is that learning a trade can become lucrative. In this case, it was. Getting a 4 year degree can be lucrative or not. It all depends on what you do with your skills.

[MaxManwell]

He parlayed the skills he learned from the profession to create a successful business. The point is that learning a trade can become lucrative. In this case, it was. Getting a 4 year degree can be lucrative or not. It all depends on what you do with your skills.

 

That is stating the obvious. The question is more related to what extent will each qualification facilitate you achieving that goal or using your skills, and past what point they become less useful.

[jerbear]

Well here is an idea.

 

When the marginal cost of your time (and thus money) exceeds the marginal cost of education, then education is losing it's value.

 

Adding a cost perspective on education versus using the time to earn income.

[MaxManwell]

Well here is an idea.

 

When the marginal cost of your time (and thus money) exceeds the marginal cost of education, then education is losing it's value.

 

Adding a cost perspective on education versus using the time to earn income.

 

Yeah ok so at what point does the marginal cost of your time (and thus money) exceeds the marginal cost of education.

[jerbear]

Yeah ok so at what point does the marginal cost of your time (and thus money) exceeds the marginal cost of education.

 

 

It really depends on what you value, college is a "safer" bet over the long term for many people. Over 14 years, the gross earnings in general for college grads is higher than high school graduates, all else being equal.

 

I'm using some quick numbers from the local private and public universities, median income as a start for the region. There is no Dept of Labor statistics with this as this is only a 5 minute quick estimate.

 

There is no annual bonus, no stipends, discounts, just basic earnings post high school and undergraduate education.

 

Here is a quick example:

 

Assumptions

$12 hourly wage as apprentice in a trade

2040 hours, NO Overtime

3% annual COLA, raise, etc…

 

4 Yr Priv $50,000.00 x4 $200000

4 Yr Pub $30,000.00 x4 $120000

1st yr Post HS $12.00 2040 24480

2nd yr Post HS $12.25 2040 24990

3rd yr Post HS $12.50 2040 25500

4th yr Post HS $13.00 2040 26520

 

 

Year 4 year public 4 Year private college High School

-4 $(30,000) $(50,000) $24,480

-3 $(30,000) $(50,000) $24,990

-2 $(30,000) $(50,000) $25,500

-1 $(30,000) $(50,000) $26,520

0 $50,000 $65,000 $27,316

1 $51,500 $66,950 $28,135

2 $53,045 $68,959 $28,979

3 $54,636 $71,027 $29,848

4 $56,275 $73,158 $30,744

5 $57,964 $75,353 $31,666

6 $59,703 $77,613 $32,616

7 $61,494 $79,942 $33,595

8 $63,339 $82,340 $34,603

9 $65,239 $84,810 $35,641

10 $67,196 $87,355 $36,710

$520,390 $632,507 $451,343

[jerbear]

Yeah ok so at what point does the marginal cost of your time (and thus money) exceeds the marginal cost of education.

 

This is a side point based on the book "Estimating Retirement Wealth" by Olivia Mitchell et al. I can't find the chapter.

 

The short one line version is this:

Those with an higher level of education, excluding professional schools (law, business, engineering), trends to meet their retirement objectives.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=llteQcSykLcC&pg=PA248&lpg=PA248&dq=estimating+retirement+wealth

[electric_sheep]

Well here is an idea.

 

When the marginal cost of your time (and thus money) exceeds the marginal cost of education, then education is losing it's value.

 

Adding a cost perspective on education versus using the time to earn income.

 

This assumes you place no intrinsic value on education itself, beyond it's ability to make you money.

 

Like most (all?) of economics, there is always the assumption that profit maximization is the sole intention. Esoteric things like quality of life, tradition, family and social structures, and happiness are not considered.

 

I don't blame economics for this, because it attempts to be an actual science, and it's difficult quantifying things such as the value of "tradition". The difficulty does not mean it isn't real though. Just talk to some tribal groups in the Amazon basin that are still hunter/gatherers, compared to their brothers that are working in local factories. The factory workers may be "richer" by our Western standards, but are they happier?

 

This is the single biggest mistake made by the Western world at the present... assuming that the entire world wants to put profit maximization at the top of it's priority list, and taking advantage of peoples misfortune to try and get them to adopt our values, instead of treating them as equals and recognizing the value of their own ideas, and recognizing that our ideas are not without fault either (for example, climate change, increasing social isolation, and nihilism resulting from being disconnected from tradition, religion, or anything else that gives our life meaning... which is probably why we are overweight, pill popping alcoholics, gamblers, and shopping addicts).

 

Anyway, just my humble opinion.

[electric_sheep]

The other problem I see with high level university education is that while you are spending your time on very complex subjects, you are not spending it on practical life skills. You learn how to do double integrals and analyze the writings of Plato and Aristotle, but you may never be taught how balance a checkbook or anything about proper nutrition and exercise. I think debt and obesity are practical issues that affect almost everyone at some point in life, why not learn how to prevent them?

 

I agree with virtually everything you say.

 

I was on my way to a phD in physical chemistry, and I admit, as skilled as I was at calculating quantum mechanical states, I was pretty stupid when it came to "life" things like relationships, love, etc... Ultimately it was this lack of "balance" that kept me from finishing my phD.

 

I think particularly in the sciences, graduate school is an endeavor which just takes up so much of your time. There is little room for anything else.

 

Having said that, we need people to get phD's in physics and astronomy and biology, so they can figure out the world for us! We need medical doctors who can perform complicated surgeries. Surely none of us would accuse our surgeon of having spent too much time in Medical school. We also need artists and musicians who are willing to ignore the marginal costs of education to pursue their passion anyway.

 

Fortunately there are people willing to study string theory 7 days a week. My physics professor was one of them.... single still, in his 40's, completely obsessed, in his office doing theory on a Saturday night.

 

Some of these people will be highly rewarded too, no doubt, which is great.

 

I'm more like you though. I don't think I'm one of those people. At least, I don't think I'd be happy being one of those people. Still... I miss solving differential equations and the Schrodinger equation.

 

My current job just seems so stupid at times, and sadly, there are few positions for people with a Masters in theoretical quantum chemistry. For that kind of research, it's all or nothing.

[jerbear]

This assumes you place no intrinsic value on education itself, beyond it's ability to make you money.

 

Like most (all?) of economics, there is always the assumption that profit maximization is the sole intention. Esoteric things like quality of life, tradition, family and social structures, and happiness are not considered.

 

Education and money can go hand in hand, just like time and money. Trade your time for money, trade your time for education to get money. You can substitute money for whatever motivates you. Education is no longer beneficial for any number of reasons.

 

I don't blame economics for this, because it attempts to be an actual science, and it's difficult quantifying things such as the value of "tradition". The difficulty does not mean it isn't real though. Just talk to some tribal groups in the Amazon basin that are still hunter/gatherers, compared to their brothers that are working in local factories. The factory workers may be "richer" by our Western standards, but are they happier?

Give them some beer and they may be happier.

 

In regards to the Amazon basin and the newly discovered tribe(s). Most are living day by day. Based on happiness and economics, it seems to me that the factory workers traded living hunting/gatherer to hunting/gatherer; to living pay check to pay check.

 

If you're talking about happiness and how it relates to purpose then yeah it can be valid that education can be a factor to happiness with ones life.

 

In my views and opinions; education is another way to provide a means to increase ones happiness, move up in the world, accumulate wealth, provide intrinsic values or altruistic values. It is valuable and based on Western or markets in NYC, you need a BS degree to get job and to be considered a promotion. To top that off, not all BS degrees are the same. Some are more BS than others.

[MaxManwell]

This assumes you place no intrinsic value on education itself, beyond it's ability to make you money.

 

Like most (all?) of economics, there is always the assumption that profit maximization is the sole intention. Esoteric things like quality of life, tradition, family and social structures, and happiness are not considered.

 

I don't blame economics for this, because it attempts to be an actual science, and it's difficult quantifying things such as the value of "tradition". The difficulty does not mean it isn't real though. Just talk to some tribal groups in the Amazon basin that are still hunter/gatherers, compared to their brothers that are working in local factories. The factory workers may be "richer" by our Western standards, but are they happier?

 

This is the single biggest mistake made by the Western world at the present... assuming that the entire world wants to put profit maximization at the top of it's priority list, and taking advantage of peoples misfortune to try and get them to adopt our values, instead of treating them as equals and recognizing the value of their own ideas, and recognizing that our ideas are not without fault either (for example, climate change, increasing social isolation, and nihilism resulting from being disconnected from tradition, religion, or anything else that gives our life meaning... which is probably why we are overweight, pill popping alcoholics, gamblers, and shopping addicts).

 

Anyway, just my humble opinion.

 

Yeah economics is two dimensional the model is filled with mistakes and incorrect assumptions.

 

I don't see why she counts the negative income twice though...

 

and you can work during college and tuition is not always so expensive but it demonstrates a point, I think but does little to answer my question

 

I am well aware of opportunity cost but more interested in actual events on that line.