At what point is education no longer beneficial ?

[MaxManwell]

You know I openly despise humanities programs. I find them to be nothing but holding pens for women with mediocre intelligence. However I am torn on the issue because I do have great respect for the disciplines. I feel they should be much smaller programs and offered only to talented writers or deep fans of a topic who wish to explore it in depth, or offered at cheap institutions for teachers.

 

A humanities program seems to be used as a stepping stone to get women into office jobs while having fun in the process. I don't think they add a great deal of productivity to the nation. You learn how to follow instructions and do as you are told blindly well enough in high school. Isn't that enough training for a girl Friday ?

 

Young University graduates that go and get a job at a company in an office, for something silly like a wholesaler and work in administration. Processing invoices, tending to customer queries and making the owners (who never went to college) and the company accountant, coffee. A cute little girl of average intelligence ends up where should would have ended up 40 years ago (as a secretary) except with a debt and inflated sense of self worth. But we don't even call them that anymore, sorry, AA's.

 

You know what her education really did for her ? Made her feel inadequate and made her unhappy. Take college out of the equation and send her straight to that job after high school not only would she be feeling good about quitting her fast food job, but right now she would have 4-5 years of work experience that could be used to increase her salary. Along the way get married and have kids. Now we have 26 year olds with a masters degree in literature applying for jobs as a receptionist. With a bundle of debt a screwed up head and consequentially no partner, just to fuel further misery.

 

The only people with masters degrees in the humanities should be truly talented writers who can make something out of the degree.

 

Science or Engineering I tend to believe that any education is usually a good thing. However it is a more complicated issue in my opinion.

 

Education is a difficult issue as it is needed, but not really. You don't need a degree to get a job, but most employers won't look at you without one. You can start at the very bottom but then they'll ask why you started there and question your motivation for wanting to be at the top. A Difficult world. The old are feeding off the young.

[Trialbyfire]

In my case yes - I pretty much got my inspiration and, later on, knowledge from things I pursued outside school. I think a good library or bookstore is a more valuable educational resource than school or university. I agree with applying the theory, but IMO this is something you learn by doing "on the job", not by studying in a classroom.

 

I have a higher opinion of the more pragmatic, hands-on education like med school, law school, MBA courses etc. Because they actually have to turn out people who can competently perform an operation, defend or prosecute someone in a trial, or run a business, they can't afford to be so sloppy. Unfortunately the same does not apply for your typical 20 year old liberal arts graduate - as long as they have the piece of paper at the end of the final year, the job's done as far as student and university are concerned.

I partially agree with you but not completely. I feel education provides you with the ability to check out different paths through formalized education.

 

I won't put down anyone's degree. My degrees are in science, in finance and econ. It's served me well from both a sourcing point and has opened doors for me. Keep in mind that when you attend University, it's the perfect networking opportunity, gives you creds and also allows you to spend less time digging through bookstores for information readily available.

[stillafool]

Well I think education is very important. However, it doesn't make since to pay for 4 years of college, get a degree in history and then end up having to get a job in retail or something else (WTF). To me that's a waste of money and time.

 

Now we have 26 year olds with a masters degree in literature applying for jobs as a receptionist. With a bundle of debt a screwed up head and consequentially no partner, just to fuel further misery.

 

Yeah you're right this seems like a waste. Why don't people get degrees in fields where they can get a job? Also (the above situation) is taking a job away from another person who doesn't have a degree nor do they need one to do a receptionist's job. That alone is unfair.

[JohnnyBlaze]

Now we have 26 year olds with a masters degree in literature applying for jobs as a receptionist. With a bundle of debt a screwed up head and consequentially no partner, just to fuel further misery.

 

There's an old joke:

An Engineering major asks "how does it work?"

A Science major asks "why does it work?"

An Economics major asks "what does it cost?"

An Arts major asks "would you like fries with it?"

Sadly, more often than not, this has been proven true. I know a few Arts majors who studied painting history and sculpture, and are still all waiting tables, just like they did back in high school over ten years ago.

 

Admittedly, some have succeeded. They figured out what aspect of art they wanted and what would be useful in the real world. Example: one guy took graphic design in college and has been the graphics designer for the past ten years at the company I work for. Unfortunately, there are fewer of him, and more of the servers.

 

In response to your original question, I think that a scholastic education stops being beneficial (from a career standpoint) at various points, depending on the job. Learning, however, goes on forever.

[christian_gal]

I believe education is always beneficial. I think that learning never ends in life-- we should all strive to be life-long learners. Education is not solely about formal education, but day-to-day experiences (informal education). Attending college is great investment to one's future. No one can ever take back your education!

[MrsHellnofires]

Well I think education is very important. However, it doesn't make since to pay for 4 years of college, get a degree in history and then end up having to get a job in retail or something else (WTF). To me that's a waste of money and time.

 

 

 

Yeah you're right this seems like a waste. Why don't people get degrees in fields where they can get a job? Also (the above situation) is taking a job away from another person who doesn't have a degree nor do they need one to do a receptionist's job. That alone is unfair.

 

 

i guess it's pretty bad when you're waiter is more educated than you are

 

people change their minds.. they realize they are not cut out for that particular field or not good enough to get the right job. i remember a student teacher than taught for one day, was sweating like a pig, so nervous, he never came back. i bet he realized that he was never going to make it being a teacher so he changed majors. honestly, most high schools dont have the wide ranges of classes that they should which would be a good base for learning what you are good at and what you'd like to pursue in life. most people out of high school have no direction and it carries over into college too. i missed out a chance going to a great high school that had so many opportunities and different courses that I could have taken in automotive, aeronautics for examples etc and my parents didnt allow me to go there. instead i went to a catholic school in which the most extra it offered was nothing actually... just the basics as any school, not even a cooking class for women or anything extraordinary. i missed out on a lot.

[MaxManwell]

Yeah but waiters make a packet and its probably a life style thing choice anyway. I'll bet those girls could get office jobs if they really wanted.

[Kenyth]

You know what a degree is? Proof on paper that you can finish something that requires a lot of money, time, work, and commitment. There have to be requirements when hiring, and a 4 year degree is an easy one to use. The fact that less than a fourth of the general population has one should say something for it's worth.

 

 

I'll tell you what people should start looking into again, is the trades. Every High School has completely abandoned their shop classes. The equipment is too expensive, and the work is too dangerous. There is a shortage of skilled tradesman. Everyone want's a college degree. It's a shame, because the trades pay well.

 

 

I'm going back to finish my four year degree. You know why? Because I simply can't progress any further without one.

[HabitualDelirium]

Education is kind of a broad term. Learning is always a great thing, because knowledge is truly liberating.

 

However, as a hard-working student all my life and a current undergraduate at UCLA, I feel that education via school is overrated.

 

There are an abundance of ways to gain experience and learn skills that do not require constant book-reading and academia. Some of my most valuable skills (communication skills, personal skills, how to deal with others in varying times, music, etc.) are those I learned outside of the classroom.

 

That little piece of paper I feel can equally destroy a person's personality as it can grow it. I've met many stressed out students that hate learning but feel forced to.... It's all about your outlook in life and goals.

[MaxManwell]

What about technical qualifications ?

 

Engineering, mathematics, statisitics, accounting, science, laboratory courses, drafting and CAD courses, programming, networking ect.

[Kenyth]

What about technical qualifications ?

 

Engineering, mathematics, statisitics, accounting, science, laboratory courses, drafting and CAD courses, programming, networking ect.

 

 

Certifications by themselves are generally considered equivalent to a two year degree. They are best left for professional development in addition to, and after getting, a degree.

 

You're just never going to progress into a management or executive position without a degree. Too many people who have one are competing with you. That's not to say you can't succeed without one, only that you're limiting your opportunities.

[stillafool]

 

I'll tell you what people should start looking into again, is the trades. Every High School has completely abandoned their shop classes. The equipment is too expensive, and the work is too dangerous. There is a shortage of skilled tradesman. Everyone want's a college degree. It's a shame, because the trades pay well.

 

This is the true as I've been shopping for someone who lays brick and have been told no one wants to do this type of work anymore. The pay is high and one could have their own business but no one wants to do it anymore. I don't understand why.

[electric_sheep]

The question actually is a good one. By "useful" I assume you mean professionally. In my opinion, education is always useful on the personal level.

 

In some fields, and for some jobs, too much education can actually be a detriment. Often times employers are required to pay according to the education level of the prospective employee, because of some company policy, and hence they will not consider people that are "over" educated.

 

I've also found that some employees will simply assume you are not serious about the job if you are over-educated. They will just assume you must be planning on using it as a stepping stone.

 

As an example of this, I got a temporary job waiting tables after I got my B.S. in chemistry, and I eventually ended up lying on my application (or rather, leaving out info about my degree) because no seemed to be interested in me at first.

 

So, in this way, education actually CLOSES some doors, even though it may open others. The reason people get an education is because the doors it opens are usually better than the ones it closes.

[Kenyth]

The question actually is a good one. By "useful" I assume you mean professionally. In my opinion, education is always useful on the personal level.

 

In some fields, and for some jobs, too much education can actually be a detriment. Often times employers are required to pay according to the education level of the prospective employee, because of some company policy, and hence they will not consider people that are "over" educated.

 

I've also found that some employees will simply assume you are not serious about the job if you are over-educated. They will just assume you must be planning on using it as a stepping stone.

 

As an example of this, I got a temporary job waiting tables after I got my B.S. in chemistry, and I eventually ended up lying on my application (or rather, leaving out info about my degree) because no seemed to be interested in me at first.

 

So, in this way, education actually CLOSES some doors, even though it may open others. The reason people get an education is because the doors it opens are usually better than the ones it closes.

 

 

Of course low end employers don't want to hire someone with a degree. They know as well as anyone else that better opportunities exist for such an individual. Chances are high that they will not stay employed with them long, and are therefore a waste of time to hire and train. A job history in an unrelated and higher paying field will get this reaction as well.

[Trialbyfire]

Education is kind of a broad term. Learning is always a great thing, because knowledge is truly liberating.

 

However, as a hard-working student all my life and a current undergraduate at UCLA, I feel that education via school is overrated.

 

There are an abundance of ways to gain experience and learn skills that do not require constant book-reading and academia. Some of my most valuable skills (communication skills, personal skills, how to deal with others in varying times, music, etc.) are those I learned outside of the classroom.

 

That little piece of paper I feel can equally destroy a person's personality as it can grow it. I've met many stressed out students that hate learning but feel forced to.... It's all about your outlook in life and goals.

Not everyone has to have education to succeed in life. If anyone is doing it, who doesn't enjoy straight-up learning, they're going to school for all the wrong reasons. There are no guarantees of payback, in life.

 

I've seen people with degrees upon degrees who can't apply anything towards real life because real life isn't the perfect theory that's taught to them.

 

I've seen people who have no degrees, barely highschool, who have applied their own brand of intelligence towards succeeding at something they love doing.

 

Having said all this, the more you learn, the more you're capable of learning, be it institutional based or simply life experience or personal research.

[MaxManwell]

This is the true as I've been shopping for someone who lays brick and have been told no one wants to do this type of work anymore. The pay is high and one could have their own business but no one wants to do it anymore. I don't understand why.

 

The pay probably isn't all that high and what happens once the shortage is over ? No point in targeting youngsters college simply has a better prospective pay off and a more comfortable life.Target older people who have already failed. I know there is a lot of money to be made in the trades but they're still a vastly inferior career choice overall. Brick laying is a terrible job too, ruin your back roll around in the mud all day. You'd want to be paying very well before I'd think about doing that.

 

Yeah the pay might be 'good' for someone without a degree as they say.

[fral945]

I believe in too much of a good thing, and education falls into this category. You can definitely be too formally educated (i.e. college). I'd say formal education is a bad idea for anyone young (i.e., in their 20s) above a Bachelor's degree, because once you get into Master's and Ph.D's you are pretty much pigeonholed into the field you're in. You may be an exception but most people I know change jobs and careers several times before they figure out what they like (and some never do). I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering and have been working in the field for 4 yrs., but I still don't think it's something I'll do for 20-30 yrs. At least it is a practical degree, though, with transferable skills.

 

There are lots of people who should just find a trade (like another poster noted) or find a job and start making money and figure it out along the way. I probably should have done that myself. I'm 28 and in that phase now, trying to figure out what I want to do with myself.

 

The other problem I see with high level university education is that while you are spending your time on very complex subjects, you are not spending it on practical life skills. You learn how to do double integrals and analyze the writings of Plato and Aristotle, but you may never be taught how balance a checkbook or anything about proper nutrition and exercise. I think debt and obesity are practical issues that affect almost everyone at some point in life, why not learn how to prevent them?

 

I also think the trend toward more specialized education has made people less well rounded. People may be smarter today, but they are dumber in a general sense. I know several people than couldn't change their oil or a flat tire if they had to (one being by Master's degree brother ). I myself would rather be knowledgeable about many things than an expert at one thing (the "jack of all trades, master of nothing" mentality).

 

As far as learning in general, that should never end until you die. If the mind goes to waste the body will soon follow. I'm not saying you should try to be Einstein, but don't quit learning, even if it is something small.

[Kenyth]

The pay probably isn't all that high and what happens once the shortage is over ? No point in targeting youngsters college simply has a better prospective pay off and a more comfortable life.Target older people who have already failed. I know there is a lot of money to be made in the trades but they're still a vastly inferior career choice overall. Brick laying is a terrible job too, ruin your back roll around in the mud all day. You'd want to be paying very well before I'd think about doing that.

 

Yeah the pay might be 'good' for someone without a degree as they say.

 

The pay is comparable to a two or four year degreed individual. The trades have been adversely affected in some areas by the illegal immigrant population and contractors who take advantage of it, but certain specialized trades are still a good bet. Carpentry and cabinetry, air conditioning heating and ductwork, electrician, plumber, skilled mechanic, welding, machining and fabricating, certain technical jobs in fabricating that deal with metallurgy and making alloys. There are actually quite a few.

[Cherry Blossom 35]

The pay is comparable to a two or four year degreed individual. The trades have been adversely affected in some areas by the illegal immigrant population and contractors who take advantage of it, but certain specialized trades are still a good bet. Carpentry and cabinetry, air conditioning heating and ductwork, electrician, plumber, skilled mechanic, welding, machining and fabricating, certain technical jobs in fabricating that deal with metallurgy and making alloys. There are actually quite a few.

 

I agree with Kenyth on the trades issue. Not everyone is cut out for college. I know it's not PC to say that, but it is true and there is nothing wrong with that. You can make good money. These jobs are important, too. When your toilet overflows all over the bathroom floor, how much do you appreciate the plumber?

 

It takes all kinds to make the world function. Someone needs to build the houses, fit the pipes, lay the bricks. Otherwise we would all live in huts.

[MaxManwell]

A 25 year old electrician will have a 25 year old EE trumped, in total earnings and probably in current earnings. A 40 year old E.Engineer versus a 40 year old Electrician would be a different story. My friends Dad was an EE who lost his job and went into consulting earning 6 figures for sitting at home writing reports. An electrician would not have that option.

 

With a degree you get a lot of opportunities that can truly change your life. Your salary can jump to levels in space of time that would make you the envy of most trades people.

 

But I am trying to debate the worth of education past certain points in a persons life, and past a certain level of qualification. While I was in College at my job, I worked with a 35 year old engineering student. It did him a lot of good in the short term, but I wonder what sort of a chance he has of getting a return on that investment. If there wasn't a better way for him to get that same stimulation.

[Kenyth]

Four year degrees are too common these days to get you further up than middle management. You only start seeing a big difference at the Masters degree level and above, along with a resume of related job experience at the appropriate level. Such qualifications make you elegible for an executive job that can pay in the six digit range.

[Kenyth]

A 25 year old electrician will have a 25 year old EE trumped, in total earnings and probably in current earnings. A 40 year old E.Engineer versus a 40 year old Electrician would be a different story.

 

That depends. A tradesman has more to think about than just doing his work all his life. Once he reaches a certain level (master), he needs to start thinking of running a business and training apprentices rather than working jobs.

[MaxManwell]

That depends. A tradesman has more to think about than just doing his work all his life. Once he reaches a certain level (master), he needs to start thinking of running a business and training apprentices rather than working jobs.

 

When 1 or 2 contractors control all the major developments and most of the jobs are trumped by recruiters. A tradesman can quickly find himself stuck of $23 an hour as his skills are devalued. I could be wrong by my perception was that a small % of trades people do very, very well the rest just earn a normal wage.

[Kenyth]

When 1 or 2 contractors control all the major developments and most of the jobs are trumped by recruiters. A tradesman can quickly find himself stuck of $23 an hour as his skills are devalued. I could be wrong by my perception was that a small % of trades people do very, very well the rest just earn a normal wage.

 

 

Ah, I see. It's taken the route of mass production and fast food. More work of lesser quality for a cheaper price. I take it that the major contractors can use general unskilled labor to do most of the work, and then they can simply inspect it? Are the trade Unions not working well these days? That would be a shame, and explain much of the shoddy work seen these days.

 

 

That would also explain the shortage of skilled tradesman, and hopefully will right itself in time as less people choose the trades as a living.

[stillafool]

The pay probably isn't all that high and what happens once the shortage is over ? No point in targeting youngsters college simply has a better prospective pay off and a more comfortable life.Target older people who have already failed. I know there is a lot of money to be made in the trades but they're still a vastly inferior career choice overall. Brick laying is a terrible job too, ruin your back roll around in the mud all day. You'd want to be paying very well before I'd think about doing that.

 

Yeah the pay might be 'good' for someone without a degree as they say.

 

 

No, my ex father in law owned a brick laying company and he was a millionare. Owned all types of properties. A young brick layer may not start off making alot of money but neither do most people with college degrees.