We all think our MM is different from the others..

[OWoman]

I've read a number of your posts and noticed you ascribed to a policy of dating married men exclusively as single men were too needy and possessive. Up until the post I replied to I assumed that you never experienced a downside to this strategy. I'm only commenting on the inescapable truth that whether married or single, men come in many packages and most don't fit your bill. You've arrived to a relationship that seems to satisfy your current needs, however, you still had to deal with all the pitfalls and issues women dating single men endure... you learned your way to where you are through trial and error one man at a time! Thus, your maturity, gained through time and experience in the dating world, has caught up with your recent revelations of what you like and dislike in married men and thus, men in general.

 

No bashing intended... just my observation based on your previous comments about single men.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

My remark wasn't a diss on MMs - or wasn't intended as such - it was a diss on unequal relationships. The clingy, smothering SGs and the "lapdog" -type MMs are both unequal though they manifest slightly differently.

 

Having been in a R where equality and mutual respect is a sine qua non I guess everything else just pales by comparison, so it's easy to be dismissive of other types of Rs.

 

If I had to choose between being smothered by SGs who attempt to control and feel threatened by my independence, and want to wrest the power balance in their favour... and having way too much power in an OW-MM situation where I call all the shots and have it all my way... I guess I would still opt for the latter, even knowing they're all partial and ultimately ephemeral. In terms of Return on Investment, the returns are high and the investment low, whereas with the SG scenario the amount of energy you're required to invest to draw lines and maintain them starts making whatever returns the R does yield less and less attractive in a Cost-Benefit Analysis.

 

I guess it all depends on where you're at, life stage wise, and what suits your needs and circumstances at the time. For me, right now, what I have is perfect, and I wouldn't change it for the world.

[OWoman]

I know! It's crazy! Some MM really just want a fling and when the fling isn't fun anymore they move on like a boy in Jr. High school.

 

Ulp! I've had OpenBook and Tomcat telling me I'm a man, now you're telling me I'm a boy in Jr High School?

 

Time to get out the hormone supplement, I reckon...

[pelicanpreacher]

Thanks for clarifying.

 

My remark wasn't a diss on MMs - or wasn't intended as such - it was a diss on unequal relationships. The clingy, smothering SGs and the "lapdog" -type MMs are both unequal though they manifest slightly differently.

 

Having been in a R where equality and mutual respect is a sine qua non I guess everything else just pales by comparison, so it's easy to be dismissive of other types of Rs.

 

If I had to choose between being smothered by SGs who attempt to control and feel threatened by my independence, and want to wrest the power balance in their favour... and having way too much power in an OW-MM situation where I call all the shots and have it all my way... I guess I would still opt for the latter, even knowing they're all partial and ultimately ephemeral. In terms of Return on Investment, the returns are high and the investment low, whereas with the SG scenario the amount of energy you're required to invest to draw lines and maintain them starts making whatever returns the R does yield less and less attractive in a Cost-Benefit Analysis.

 

I guess it all depends on where you're at, life stage wise, and what suits your needs and circumstances at the time. For me, right now, what I have is perfect, and I wouldn't change it for the world.

 

Hmmmmm... I noticed you didn't include the single man who walks with confidence, security, strength, and independence within the repetoire of your dating world. Maybe there aren't any or maybe they represent too large a challenge to bend to your will. Your affinity in the type of men you seem to date, single or otherwise, translates into a weaker representation of the male genre to make your perfect man! If that's what works for you, "Sailor... sail on"!

 

You can be as eloquent and verbose in your argument as you want to be but you cannot escaped the logic of my conclusions. "Sine quo non"...LOL!

[pelicanpreacher]

Ya know there's alot of hoopla about the "single guy" on here...

 

In my experience, when a woman reaches a certain age (and I'm early 30's) there's usually a reason that they're single...

 

And none of them are good reasons...(I'm not a hermit either.)

 

Sorry...

 

*Disclaimer: I never made it a habit to pursue MM. It just sort of happened*

 

I suppose the same thing could have been said about you when you were "30's, Single, and Looking"! Also, few relationships just happen for we all covet what we see around us every day. "It happened" because you saw what you wanted and took the initiative to "make it happen"!

[OWoman]

Hmmmmm... I noticed you didn't include the single man who walks with confidence, security, strength, and independence within the repetoire of your dating world.

 

As GEL stated, it has to do with life stage. I'm not looking for some fresh-faced kid just out of college, I want a man with life experience, preferably a decade or more older than myself. Men of that age are either:

 

* currently married (happily or otherwise)

* divorced (recently or chronically)

* never married.

 

Taking them in reverse order:

 

Guys who've never married are usually single for a reason. Either they're gay, or they're R-phobic, or they're toxic, or they're standards are so impossibly high no woman would ever be good enough. All of those are deal breakers for me - so no one in this category would fit.

 

Divorced guys are either recently divorced - still smarting, drowning in their issues, needing a shrink rather than a lover. I'm nobody's social worker and nobody's rebound. Deal breaker - or chronically divorced, frothing with issues about women, life in general (like some of the posters at LS) and Rs in particular. (Or worse - someone dumped them for a reason!) These guys have been scared off and are waiting for the right woman to wean them back into trusting, to teach them that not all women are the same, etc etc. It's not me. I don't do emotional laundry and I'm not a social worker. Deal breaker.

 

So, that leaves the Married guys...

 

(or maybe, some guy who's been marooned on a desert island for the last 30 years. Hey, let's not rule out a miracle!)

 

Seriously, if there are "single men who walk with confidence, security, strength, and independence" out there in the age group I'm interested in (who are also not axe murderers, narcissists or Scientologists) I've never met them and would be very grateful if you'd tag them with a transponder so that their movements can be tracked and their existence verified, their Red Book status modified and hunting licenses issued, because I'm sure many other women would also be interested!

[pelicanpreacher]

Ding! Round 1 to OWoman. I'll have to think a a bit harder on this I see.

 

Ah, but wait a minute...You had to do some serious rehab work on your current beau in light of the baggage he's endured, yes?! If he's worth it then you'll endure his emotional laundry and much more,yes?!

(and round 2 goes to the pelican)

[OWoman]

Ding! Round 1 to OWoman. I'll have to think a a bit harder on this I see.

 

Ah, but wait a minute...You had to do some serious rehab work on your current beau in light of the baggage he's endured, yes?! If he's worth it then you'll endure his emotional laundry and much more,yes?!

(and round 2 goes to the pelican)

 

Rehab work? Me??? You have the wrong OWoman! All I did was point him at his counsellor and say, "go!"

 

He's doing the work. I would never have gotten involved with him if I had to do the work! Nonononononono! If he'd been walking around wounded, I wouldn't have looked twice. I am so not going to waste my time on someone I feel sorry for. I want a man I feel lust for, not pity!

[pelicanpreacher]

Hmmmmm.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

 

So you can say with all candor that you've never made one suggestion, provided any encouragement, or had any input whatsoever on the dramatic turmoils he's faced during the process of his divorce?!

Come on now...the dominant woman I've preceived in all of your posts would have to find this scenario too tempting for words not to get knee deep and bloody on this one!

 

Its time to "Come to Jesus" and bare your soul!

Oh we gather at the river..the beautiful, the beautiful river...

 

(Just setting the mood!)

[White Flower]

Ulp! I've had OpenBook and Tomcat telling me I'm a man, now you're telling me I'm a boy in Jr High School?

 

Time to get out the hormone supplement, I reckon...

LOL, too funny. I suppose I shouldn't be gender specific. Hmm. Rephrase: Some MM really just want a fling and when the fling isn't fun anymore they move on like a KID in Jr. High school.

 

 

I suppose now you'll accuse me of calling you a kid.

[pelicanpreacher]

Divorced guys are either recently divorced - still smarting, drowning in their issues, needing a shrink rather than a lover. I'm nobody's social worker and nobody's rebound. Deal breaker

 

These emboldened excerpts were some of the same sentiments I expressed when replying to another poster who came fresh out of divorce, married another woman who was fresh out of divorce, and ended up losing his new wife to her ex-husband because she was still in love with her X and had unresolved issues in her former marriage.

 

Reflecting on the situation you have with your MM aren't you in some ways dealing with some of the exact same issues you've espoused to be as a "Deal Breaker" in this post?

 

Now, I know the abuse he's suffered in his marriage is a mitigating factor in your faith that your MM won't harbor latent loving or longing feelings for his current wife after the divorce and that his children and friends have well adjusted to you as his SO but I still cringe at the fact that he may not have had enough time to fully digest his feelings through this transition which might leave you vulnerable to getting hurt. Although you love him and he loves you I would still suggest slowing down the process of stitching your lives together until you're sure he's got his feet on the ground, head out of the clouds, and can assert, without hesitation, that you are the one he wants to grow old with once all the dust of his divorce has settled. From what you've disclosed thus far, he is in for a very bumpy ride in attempting to divorce his wife and will likely be reeling from the trauma of this "life event" for some time to come. From your own admission, you are no-ones social worker (a very healthy position to take) so maybe you need to take a step back, make a critical assesment of the future with him, and then make your determination on what kind of commitment you can realistically make under these circumstances.

 

Simply reflecting the advice I seen you offer others in a similar predicament!

[White Flower]

Rehab work? Me??? You have the wrong OWoman! All I did was point him at his counsellor and say, "go!"

 

He's doing the work. I would never have gotten involved with him if I had to do the work! Nonononononono! If he'd been walking around wounded, I wouldn't have looked twice. I am so not going to waste my time on someone I feel sorry for. I want a man I feel lust for, not pity!

I don't think you give yourself enough credit. Maybe you can 'waste your time' for someone you lust after?

[GreenEyedLady]

I suppose the same thing could have been said about you when you were "30's, Single, and Looking"! Also, few relationships just happen for we all covet what we see around us every day. "It happened" because you saw what you wanted and took the initiative to "make it happen"!

 

Are you jealous or something?

 

I never had to look, they came to me...

 

You presume alot...Sometimes things happen, without you knowing it...I would explain, but since you're so "new" and you're already trying to disrespect me, you're not worth the time...

 

GEL

[pelicanpreacher]

Are you jealous or something?

 

I never had to look, they came to me...

 

You presume alot...Sometimes things happen, without you knowing it...I would explain, but since you're so "new" and you're already trying to disrespect me, you're not worth the time...

 

GEL

 

No disrespect intended....I just know that in my life I get myself into what I got myself into. Maybe its different for you because you're of you're good looks, charm, and personality. But, as Billy Joel would say, "Any way it's okay you wake up with yourself"!

 

For the sake of reciprosity I'll adopt your attitude that since you're so "old" yet tried to disrespect me, you're not worth my time either...

[pelicanpreacher]

I don't think you give yourself enough credit. Maybe you can 'waste your time' for someone you lust after?

 

Touche...For I have certainly been guilty as charged from both sides of the fence on that issue

... a number of times in my lifetime!

[OWoman]

Reflecting on the situation you have with your MM aren't you in some ways dealing with some of the exact same issues you've espoused to be as a "Deal Breaker" in this post?

 

Now, I know the abuse he's suffered in his marriage is a mitigating factor in your faith that your MM won't harbor latent loving or longing feelings for his current wife after the divorce and that his children and friends have well adjusted to you as his SO but I still cringe at the fact that he may not have had enough time to fully digest his feelings through this transition which might leave you vulnerable to getting hurt. Although you love him and he loves you I would still suggest slowing down the process of stitching your lives together until you're sure he's got his feet on the ground, head out of the clouds, and can assert, without hesitation, that you are the one he wants to grow old with once all the dust of his divorce has settled. From what you've disclosed thus far, he is in for a very bumpy ride in attempting to divorce his wife and will likely be reeling from the trauma of this "life event" for some time to come. From your own admission, you are no-ones social worker (a very healthy position to take) so maybe you need to take a step back, make a critical assesment of the future with him, and then make your determination on what kind of commitment you can realistically make under these circumstances.

 

Simply reflecting the advice I seen you offer others in a similar predicament!

 

Very different in many ways! I've known him for years - I met him fairly soon after he allowed his W back after a separation (she agreed to MC - his stipulation for allowing her back - but reneged on that) and we got to know each other well in a professional and social context over a long time before I jumped him (for an intended brief fling). He has been in counselling - both IC and family counselling (without W who refused to join them) - sustainedly and has been given a clear bill of health from the counsellors.

 

We've "been together" for a long time - we're just doing the paperwork now to formalise it.

[OWoman]

I don't think you give yourself enough credit. Maybe you can 'waste your time' for someone you lust after?

 

I may be a counsellor, but I am not HIS counsellor and I would never engage in that way with him, as it would threaten the power dynamic of our R.

 

It does help to have a background in counselling battered women - I can recognise instantly the vestiges of the abuse in his responses when that happens (if, for example, I say something that reminds him of the way his W always used to humiliate him in public, and he recoils or withdraws), and not to get caught up in that cycle but simply to step back, flag it for later and move on without taking it personally. But I certainly don't get drawn into any of that - I might mull over it here, or elsewhere, but beyond ensuring that the way we treat each other is at all times respectful and caring, it's not something that belongs in our R discourse.

[pelicanpreacher]

Very different in many ways! I've known him for years - I met him fairly soon after he allowed his W back after a separation (she agreed to MC - his stipulation for allowing her back - but reneged on that) and we got to know each other well in a professional and social context over a long time before I jumped him (for an intended brief fling). He has been in counselling - both IC and family counselling (without W who refused to join them) - sustainedly and has been given a clear bill of health from the counsellors.

 

We've "been together" for a long time - we're just doing the paperwork now to formalise it.

 

Combining the info of your last 2 posts it is now much clearer as to why you have such a sharp insight to so many scenarios discussed on this board. And I also fully understand why you would purposely refrain from providing direct advice to your current beau. I'm still perplexed as to how you know so much about the governor system on high end Porsches! It would be interesting to get to know you Agent Starling!

[White Flower]

Combining the info of your last 2 posts it is now much clearer as to why you have such a sharp insight to so many scenarios discussed on this board. And I also fully understand why you would purposely refrain from providing direct advice to your current beau. I'm still perplexed as to how you know so much about the governor system on high end Porsches! It would be interesting to get to know you Agent Starling!

Aha! You've seen 'the governer system' posts. OWoman, the top secret stuff has been leaked...

[InvisibleGirl]

We had a big fight on Friday and I told him he needs to fess up at home, that he needs to tell the truth. He said I can't do that, do I want him to be thrown out of his own house and never be able to see his kids again.

 

So thats it the NC is on. (He has already been in touch twice texted me with "you dont need to reply but...") He said it is tearing his heart out. It will be harder to do come Monday when I'm back at work but this is what I need to do for my own sanity. He only cares about himself so I should only care about myself from here on out. I love him but I'm done with getting noting in return for it. He made his choice and I can't do anything to change his mind.

[OWoman]

We had a big fight on Friday and I told him he needs to fess up at home, that he needs to tell the truth. He said I can't do that, do I want him to be thrown out of his own house and never be able to see his kids again.

 

So thats it the NC is on. (He has already been in touch twice texted me with "you dont need to reply but...") He said it is tearing his heart out. It will be harder to do come Monday when I'm back at work but this is what I need to do for my own sanity. He only cares about himself so I should only care about myself from here on out. I love him but I'm done with getting noting in return for it. He made his choice and I can't do anything to change his mind.

 

 

IG - it sounds like you got yourself a drama queen! So it's down to you - do YOU want him to be thrown out of his own house... rather than him recognising that as a possible consequence of his own actions. So it's fine for him to do as he likes as long as he doesn't have to face the fall-out?

 

(Also interesting that he sees the natural consequences of his actions as being deprived of his property and "never" seeing his kids again. That says a lot for how he himself views his actions, even though he's choosing to repress that! Personally, I don't know of any W who's been physically strong enough to evict a H against his will, or any court who has ordered that a father have no further contact with his kids based on infidelity alone, but perhaps in the realms of his imagination this is what he deserves.)

 

I'm glad you're taking a stand and putting yourself first - he clearly is not looking out for your interests, so you need to be doing that. (((((hugs)))))

[White Flower]

IG - it sounds like you got yourself a drama queen! So it's down to you - do YOU want him to be thrown out of his own house... rather than him recognising that as a possible consequence of his own actions. So it's fine for him to do as he likes as long as he doesn't have to face the fall-out?

 

(Also interesting that he sees the natural consequences of his actions as being deprived of his property and "never" seeing his kids again. That says a lot for how he himself views his actions, even though he's choosing to repress that! Personally, I don't know of any W who's been physically strong enough to evict a H against his will, or any court who has ordered that a father have no further contact with his kids based on infidelity alone, but perhaps in the realms of his imagination this is what he deserves.)

 

I'm glad you're taking a stand and putting yourself first - he clearly is not looking out for your interests, so you need to be doing that. (((((hugs)))))

I couldn't have said it better so I bolded it.

 

Invisible Girl, I really feel for you. I often felt invisible, too, so when I first saw your username I kind of choked up. I hope you get what you truly deserve in life. Be strong.

 

((IG))

[OWoman]

I often felt invisible, too

 

I think that sucks! (((((hugs))))) IG and WF!

 

There seem to be two kind of dynamics with MMs and their OWs - sometimes with both at play in the same A.

 

Some MMs put the OW first - they lavish her with attention, are there whenever she snaps her fingers, wine her and dine her and spoil her and show her off, love her and worship her and lllive out their hopes and dreams with her - even if they're still chained to some other woman somewhere else, or to some kids or family responsibilities or some other structural unshiftable that keeps them trapped and unable to flee to the arms of their true beloved.

 

Some MMs use their OWs as a source to augment whatever they're not getting in their Ms or their lives, to make them feel better about themselves or to more closely approximate what they feel they deserve rather than what they've been dealt. It's all about them. These OWs are typically kept hidden away, some dark secret - the Elisabeth Fritzls of the MM's fevered mind but without him having to go to all the effort of digging a cellar.

 

The first kind of A can be enormously satisfying to the OW if that's all she wants; or else enormously frustrating, if not. The second kind of A just undermines and is destructive.

[InvisibleGirl]

IG - it sounds like you got yourself a drama queen! So it's down to you - do YOU want him to be thrown out of his own house... rather than him recognising that as a possible consequence of his own actions. So it's fine for him to do as he likes as long as he doesn't have to face the fall-out?

 

(Also interesting that he sees the natural consequences of his actions as being deprived of his property and "never" seeing his kids again. That says a lot for how he himself views his actions, even though he's choosing to repress that! Personally, I don't know of any W who's been physically strong enough to evict a H against his will, or any court who has ordered that a father have no further contact with his kids based on infidelity alone, but perhaps in the realms of his imagination this is what he deserves.)

 

I'm glad you're taking a stand and putting yourself first - he clearly is not looking out for your interests, so you need to be doing that. (((((hugs)))))

 

thanks we were out and both had a lot to drink and I guess I had a lot of things supressed that I needed to discuss with him. I asked him if the girl he kissed was a better kisser than me as an ice breaker of sorts :laugh:and that started it all. I actually made him cry like a baby.

 

He keeps sending me text messages here and there about you know I cant not worry about you the weather is going to be bad down there, etc.

 

I wouldnt want him thrown out of the house because of me because it will all be my fault then in his eyes but I do think he needs to stop cheating or learn to be happy with what he has at home.

 

Not sure why any man would think a woman would stay around him the way I did him, if they understood it as being 'temporary'. These guys will tell us what we want to hear as long as it benefits them.

[OWoman]

thanks we were out and both had a lot to drink and I guess I had a lot of things supressed that I needed to discuss with him. I asked him if the girl he kissed was a better kisser than me as an ice breaker of sorts :laugh:and that started it all. I actually made him cry like a baby.

 

You should go into party planning. With that kind of ice-breaking the polar ice caps won't last long :laugh:

 

He keeps sending me text messages here and there about you know I cant not worry about you the weather is going to be bad down there, etc.

 

I wouldnt want him thrown out of the house because of me because it will all be my fault then in his eyes but I do think he needs to stop cheating or learn to be happy with what he has at home.

 

Not sure why any man would think a woman would stay around him the way I did him, if they understood it as being 'temporary'. These guys will tell us what we want to hear as long as it benefits them.

 

He wouldn't be thrown out of the house because of you. He'd be thrown out of the house (if he agreed to go) because of WHAT HE DID. It was his choice, and the consequence he faced would be of his own making.

 

Nice that he's worrying about you. Perhaps he'll take it that step further and actually start caring enough to do something?

 

(((((hugs))))) Hang in there!

[porter218]

It sounds like you are just trying to disapear quietly. As someone from the other end of this type of story, I think you should tell his wife if he will not. I am forever gratefull to the one woman who finally confessed that she was seeing my husband. Women should stick together and not let men go unpunished for this level of betrayel. You would be shocked to find out how many of the complaints these men tell you about their wives are complete fabrication to make you feel OK with what they are doing.