He's still having doubts.

[Kamille]

First off.. Kamille is codependent so that is why she is willing to accept his behavior and drinking

 

Secondly.. She doesn't know how much he is really drinking right now.. they are broken up...

If he really is staying on a certain level it is because the spotlight is on him.. He will drink more...

 

Go back and read the quoted post from her earlier thread that I posted..

He can't control his drinking...

 

I hid the amount I drank from just about everyone..including a GF that I had lived with for 4 years...

I wuold suspect that he is hiding the amounts now that she has an issue with it.. With a functional Alcoholic the amount is almost never going to be able to be figured out unless you count their drinks.. Which Alanon will teach her not to do...

 

And counting his drinks isn't what I want to do anyways.

 

no he can't control his drinking, yes he has an issue. But right now, as it is, I can live with it.

 

I'm not sure what your point is AC, and what advice I can take from your post.

[Star Gazer]

See... I feel like we do have communication, trust and understanding. Well, at least I did until he started talking about doubts.

 

No. You didn't have it... otherwise he wouldn't have had doubts to begin with, and neither would you have when things got broken off the first time.

[TheFonz]

This guy is either insecure, not that into you, or is playing games. Or all 3.

[DanielMadr]

Kamille, read your post like its not your post and try to give an advice. You always give perfect no BS advices.

[Kamille]

Kamille, read your post like its not your post and try to give an advice. You always give perfect no BS advices.

 

If only it was that easy! And no, my advice is not always perfect. I try to keep the bs out though.

 

But I got a lot of good advice and definitely a lot of food for thought.

 

But it mostly helped me clarified that: he's allowed to have doubts. We have big decisions coming up.

 

I can be patient. Sure there's moving involved, but we haven't talked about it enough for me to actually have my mind made up yet.

 

I'm no longer feeling hurt, like I did last night or this morning. I'm not saying everything is just dandy, but at least I feel much better about the whole thing, no matter the outcome.

 

I trust that we will both be honest, that we each want what's best for the other and that we can communicate that. It doesn't mean we will agree, of have the same answer. He doesn't mean his doubts will evaporate. It only means I have faith, like some you mentionned (Jilly, Marlena) that however things work out, it will be for the better.

 

And the Fonz, I think both he and I can be insecure sometimes. But mostly, the guy is just a man trying to figure out this thing called love.

[TheFonz]

And the Fonz, I think both he and I can be insecure sometimes. But mostly, the guy is just a man trying to figure out this thing called love.

 

Well love isn't something you should really have to figure out you're either in love and a good lover or your not. That was my point in my "what I do" thread. But that doesn't mean you can't have doubts about a person and a relationship with the. And on the other hand, you seem to have the right attitude to wait and see if things workout without pointing a bunch of blame. Doing that would help a lot of girls IMO.

[dreamergrl]

I grew up with an alcoholic parent - I get the gist of it.

 

And in many cases, yes it does progress and get worse. In other cases it doesn't.

 

I had spoke of my father earlier and his drinking problem. He was bad - and you knew when he was drinking. After several years of complete sobriety - he started having a beer after work here and there. And that's all it stayed at. It's not something I'm stating just because he's my father, as we don't get along, but it's something I've observed. I also know that he's not willing to risk the company he had built when he got sober - by drinking his life away again.

 

With the other two men I've dealt with that abused alcohol, yes it kept progressing and getting worse. They weren't able to control it.

 

I think if something stays at the same level, and someone is willing to accept it, and is ready for what could happen - it's there choice.

[shadowplay]

Hi Kamille,

 

I can relate to your stress as I am going through a more pronounced version of what you are. My boyfriend and I are trying to rebuild after I broke his trust -- in a far worse way, as you know.

 

You may feel that you are riding an emotional rollercoaster at times. You may find it hard to resist the temptation to ask for reassurance, even when you know pressuring him will only make things worse.

 

My boyfriend told me that a week ago he had pronounced our relationship as dead. After letting go, it has been very hard for him to get out of the break-up mentality and reinvest. Perhaps your bf is going through something similar. What you saw as a "break" he may have interpreted as "break-up." He may have already taken steps to get over you when you reemerged in his life.

 

Men seem to have trouble changing their mind when they've made it up. When a man makes a decision he means it. Once he pushes the mental switch, it is hard for him to snap back.

 

It's sort of like the loss of innocence for a relationship. Once trust has been compromised or a break has occurred, the love is no longer innocent or pure. Your relationship is no longer virgin; it has been violated. Sorry for the graphic analogy, but I believe it apt.

 

Being in love involves an element of idealization and deception. Love is blind, as they say. Before your boyfriend was enamored with your good qualities and ignored your human flaws. His rose-colored glasses have fallen off and cracked. Now he sees you in a more objective light. He sees you as a full person with both positive and negative traits. It is hard for him to return to the giddy, "in love" place with that knowledge. Think of being in love as the trance-like suspension of disbelief you slip into watching a movie. If you were to see a documentary about the "making of" before watching a movie, it would be much harder to view it with fresh, believing eyes.

 

Can someone return to the "virgin" state over time with patience? I don't know the answer to that question. I think it depends on the person and the circumstances of the breach.

 

From the way you've described your boyfiend, it sounds like he has a bit of an ego and his pride was severely bruised when you left him. He resents you for doing that to him. On the other hand, I believe there to be hope because you had a legimitate reason to break up with him. He realizes this on some level, but won't admit it to himself because it would mean recognizing his alcoholism. But the fact that he knows it deep down will make it easier for him to trust you again.

 

What can you do? I can tell you what I've noticed has and hasn't worked on my bf this past week.

 

1) Actions speak louder than words. I wrote my bf a long letter, but it didn't seem to have much effect. He was much more touched by me cooking him his favorite meal.

 

2) He feels closest to me when we're laughing together or doing something fun like going to a concert or movie. Whenever the relationship comes up, it puts a damper on his feelings. Go on mini adventures to take the focus off the relationship.

 

3) Displaying strong emotions like crying or telling him how much I love him seems to push him away. I think he sees it as pressure. My advice is to minimize the pressure as best you can. Tell him you love him, but don't overdo it. Display some independence and keep the mood lighthearted. He'll make things more serious and intimate when HE feels ready to do so.

 

Hope that helps. I really have a lot of hope for you guys.

Edited April 3, 2008 by shadowplay

[DanielMadr]

I think Kamille, that you had some bumps on the road, and you -because you are not that "its others fault" person - called time out to think things trough to erase your possible faults. And you came back expecting LALA land from now on. But what a shock...no LALA land. Well, maybe it is because it wasnt entirely your fault that bump. Maybe he has some thinking to do about himself too.

 

And his alchol problem. ts ts

 

Kamille, be aware that good people like you are bad enders. They want to be everything OK all the time, despite the circumstances. And try and try and try.....but they can do jack shayt, really.

 

Your call

[DanielMadr]

I grew up with an alcoholic parent - I get the gist of it.

 

And in many cases, yes it does progress and get worse. In other cases it doesn't.

 

I had spoke of my father earlier and his drinking problem. He was bad - and you knew when he was drinking. After several years of complete sobriety - he started having a beer after work here and there. And that's all it stayed at. It's not something I'm stating just because he's my father, as we don't get along, but it's something I've observed. I also know that he's not willing to risk the company he had built when he got sober - by drinking his life away again.

 

With the other two men I've dealt with that abused alcohol, yes it kept progressing and getting worse. They weren't able to control it.

 

I think if something stays at the same level, and someone is willing to accept it, and is ready for what could happen - it's there choice.

 

Excessive use of Alcohol is Man's Valium. When the road gets bumpy....gulp....another happy pill of oblivion. Not a good character trait.

[dreamergrl]

Excessive use of Alcohol is Man's Valium. When the road gets bumpy....gulp....another happy pill of oblivion. Not a good character trait.

 

Just being curious..

So what if a person needs to take a pill for depression, or to keep emotion in check? Is that a bad character trait?

 

Obviously it's not the same as a drinking problem - but many people who end up on a form of anti-depressant have problems going off it - and continue to "need" it.

[Nevermind]

It may be a bit off-topic, but Art_Critic is absolutely right. Your boyfriend is an alcoholic, Kamille.

 

I don't know the translation in English, but what he does is referred to as Spiegeltrinker (level drinker?) in German.

Some people do not need to drink higher and higher doses to get drunk, they don't intend to get drunk anyway. They need to keep up a certain level of alcohol to feel good. Many of them drink exactly the same every night. And everything is okay unless they are forced to stop, or circumstances prevent them from it. It does become a severe issue in relationships and it is often not taken seriously.

 

 

---------

 

I found a reference to it, a delta drinker:

Delta alcoholics

 

Level drunkard without control losses. For the avoidance of physical withdrawal syndromes, a permanent blood alcohol level must be kept upright.

 

(source: http://www.alcohol-encyclopedia.eu/AL_EN/alcoholism.shtml) This is not a very reliable source, I guess. But the german word did show many good sites. So maybe I just used the wrong translation.)

[DanielMadr]

Just being curious..

So what if a person needs to take a pill for depression, or to keep emotion in check? Is that a bad character trait?

 

Obviously it's not the same as a drinking problem - but many people who end up on a form of anti-depressant have problems going off it - and continue to "need" it.

 

No need to fall back in depression because you take a pill which should help to get out of depression

 

I believe that most people wouldnt have any need for a pill or booze if they just stopped pitty themselves and were honest with themselves. They try to escape themselves. They should find the time to learn to love themselves, to forgive themselves, to stop fear themselves and to start living as opposed to surviving.

 

The pill can help you to slow down your thoughts and to show you how the happy spot looks like - its the place(state of mind) you should achive. If you cant get enough motivation in you to start the process, well, you end up hitting the booze pretty often.

 

Most people I know, who are continually depressed, have no reason to be depressed - and that maybe depresses them even more. They are just lazy and full of themselves. And of course nothing really forces them to change. Try living in 3rd world country you pussies!

 

Actually people who know the hell of depression can be the best people - they lived in hell and survived- They can appreciate little things in life now.

 

Use pills as crutches. But dont forget you have to train your legs too, more and more. Slowly but with persistance.

 

Are you suffering of depression dremgrl?

[dreamergrl]

 

Are you suffering of depression dremgrl?

 

No, but I have been prescribed in the past for anxiety/ panic attack disorder - although I've gotten control over it without the need for meds. I didn't like how I felt when on them. If I took one when having one - I'd end up tired for the rest of the day. It was mostly stress induced so I just learned different ways to deal with the stress.

[Kamille]

For the record, I do think my boyfriend is an alcohol abuser, which is a form of dependency to alcohol, and which, if I understand AC's point correctly, could be part of the reason bf is having doubts about the relationship.

 

But, I am finding out that there is nothing fondamentally wrong with loving someone who has alcohol issues. Would I prefer him to not have a problem with alcohol? Yes. But the fact is alcohol does play a big role in his life, and right now I feel like it is something I can handle.

 

I just don't really understand how the big debate about whether or not he is an alcoholic is relevant to the situation right now. The question isn't: should I break up with him because alcohol plays a central role in his life; the question is, what do his doubts mean?

 

I understand that the place of alcohol is something I need to take into consideration in the upcoming decisions we will be making, but as I said, I feel armed enough to be able to accept it.

[Kamille]

So today we had planned a lunch date. It went well. We had fun. We didn't talk at all about his doubts, but I think we will definitely need to plan a big talk soon.

 

I don't know what to say other then I'm starting to realize that you guys were right and I was idealizing the relationship and pushing too hard for one perticular outcome.

 

I want us to make the right decision and that means asking ourselves some tough questions. I'm now more willing to discuss it with him, then push an agenda on him.

 

If we work out as a couple we do, if we don't, we don't.

 

My point is, I think both he and I deserve to be in a relationship where there is no doubts that we are loved.

[StartingOver07]

For the record, I do think my boyfriend is an alcohol abuser, which is a form of dependency to alcohol, and which, if I understand AC's point correctly, could be part of the reason bf is having doubts about the relationship.

 

But, I am finding out that there is nothing fondamentally wrong with loving someone who has alcohol issues. Would I prefer him to not have a problem with alcohol? Yes. But the fact is alcohol does play a big role in his life, and right now I feel like it is something I can handle.

 

I just don't really understand how the big debate about whether or not he is an alcoholic is relevant to the situation right now. The question isn't: should I break up with him because alcohol plays a central role in his life; the question is, what do his doubts mean?

 

I understand that the place of alcohol is something I need to take into consideration in the upcoming decisions we will be making, but as I said, I feel armed enough to be able to accept it.

 

Kamille, I have not read all of the replies here but my take is that the issue is not whether he is actually an alcoholic but whether he perceives that he has to curtail his drinking in order to be with you. He may be doubting whether he can commit to a life of less alcohol, which is what he may think you'd expect if/when you move in together.

 

He also may be having a hard time regaining his footing after your break-up, especially since it appears you werer the one to initiate that.

 

But I do think there is a larger issue at play here -- He is a smoker and a drinker and you have made it clear that you are less than fully tolerant of these habits in the way that he prefers to indulge in them. So yes, I think he may be weighing whether he can modify their use in a way that will still be satisfying to him and allow him to have a relationship with you.

[dreamergrl]

 

I just don't really understand how the big debate about whether or not he is an alcoholic is relevant to the situation right now. The question isn't: should I break up with him because alcohol plays a central role in his life; the question is, what do his doubts mean?

 

I don't think it's a debate whether or not he is an alcoholic - I think it's a matter of how bad it is. I believe there's different severity levels. JMO.

 

Like I said earlier - it's your choice if you want to be with him regardless of the drinking issue, and I think if you feel you can handle it go for. As far as the doubts, I think that has be talked about. How do you feel about bringing this up right now and having that talk with him?

[Trialbyfire]

Kamille, I haven't read everything said in this thread so forgive me if I'm reiterating same old, same old advice.

 

Sometimes, battling your way up a slippery slope of a relationship, isn't worth it. Relationships shouldn't be impossible feats. Do the positives outweigh the negatives, to the point where there's no doubt you want to remain in it or are both of you battling for something that's already lost?

 

Even though two people can care a great deal about/for each other, sometimes differences can be insurmountable.

 

My personal take on this, is that it's a helluva' lot of work. What I can't possibly understand, is your emotional return for this. Only you know what you're getting from this relationship. Really, really review what it is you're battling for.

[Art_Critic]

If I understand AC's point correctly, could be part of the reason bf is having doubts about the relationship.

 

You are correct Kamille.. the doubts to me mean that you are competing with the bottle and in those cases the bottle will always win in the end...

 

There isn't anything wrong with loving someone who is an Alcoholic.. that is why you should go to Alanon..

In Alanon you learn to separate the person from the Alcohol and learn healthy choices for yourself so you are not enabling him and being codepndant on him and his Alcoholism.

You will also learn to not let your life revolve around his drinking... as it seems to have already started to do.

 

I do think a relationship with a drinking Alcoholic isn't a healthy choice for someone who has codependency issues that haven't been dealt with..

 

You going to Alanon is learning to deal with your issues and the reasons why you are attracted to someone who drinks to excess.

 

By the way.. I haven't mentioned that you should dump him.. I have only tried to get you to open your eyes to the fact that minimizing his drinking problems is an unhealthy thing to do..

 

I do hope you both win out and the relationship works... but I also do think that he is going to have to deal with his drinking in order for that to happen..

[datingmum]

So today we had planned a lunch date. It went well. We had fun. We didn't talk at all about his doubts, but I think we will definitely need to plan a big talk soon.

 

I don't know what to say other then I'm starting to realize that you guys were right and I was idealizing the relationship and pushing too hard for one perticular outcome.

 

I want us to make the right decision and that means asking ourselves some tough questions. I'm now more willing to discuss it with him, then push an agenda on him.

 

If we work out as a couple we do, if we don't, we don't.

 

My point is, I think both he and I deserve to be in a relationship where there is no doubts that we are loved.

 

I thought there was no doubt that love was in the equation?

 

Perhaps you could simply enjoy spending time with him for the next few weeks, as you did today, and see where it leads? He may come forth with more 'thinking/learning' and it may be great!

 

I don't believe a relationship is real until it is 'de-virginised' by the way, in reference to an earlier poster. You do not understand/see/really know someone until you work together or against one another in adversity. It is once the idealised mist burns away that you see with perfect focus exactly what kind of human being you are in a relationship with.

 

I think you're boyfriend is going to get through this with you and I hope you can allow it to be as smooth and kind and thoughtful of a process as you've allowed it to be so far. I only WISH I could be so reserved!!!

[Frieda]

it's time like these, when I see a sweet woman with a good heart that I wish the guy just turns around and hugs her close and says I love you, i love you, i love you and everythin will be fine. love is not supposed to be that hard, at all. oh well.

 

i think you are going to be fine OP. he loves you and he's just going through a rough time. your job is to continue to be loving, sweet, and caring - supportive. don't make it worse by frowning your face and your heart all day. he will be fine.

[Kamille]

I do think a relationship with a drinking Alcoholic isn't a healthy choice for someone who has codependency issues that haven't been dealt with..

 

I just read up on co-dependency and while I do think there were traces of it at the time when we broke up (I was trying to control the situation), I don't see where else or how else I am actively being co-dependent. Maybe you could help me here.

 

It's easy to perceive any of my assessment of the impact his dependency has on his life as co-dependency, but the fact is that he is managing his habit - on his own. And that Al Anon is teaching me to not make his drinking my issue. Should I be saying he is throwing his life down the drain, when nothing in his life shows me that he is? He doesn't cancel appointments, always shows up on time at work, does all the work he is supposed to do, superbly so ever. Should I be saying that alcohol is impacting his work, when it isn't? That he has no control whatsoever over his drinking when he does to some extent?

 

I don't understand which position you are advocating I take on the issue. Yes he has a problem. It might or it might not get out of control. Not every alcoholic goes down the same road, and my albeit rumenditary understanding of the disease makes me feel that he is more on the side of alcohol abuser then full-fledge alcoholic. The difference being that for alcohol abusers, the addiction isn't degenerative (they don't need to drink more and more alcohol to get by). It doesn't mean I believe his dependency won't become degenerative, just that right now I don't have any reasons to believe that it absolutely definitely unavoidably will either.

 

You're right though. Alcohol is most likely part of the equation when he is considering what our life together might mean. I became quite controlling and I am not saying all the co-dependency issues are resolved for me, but I am seeing the personal benefits of working on them.

[datingmum]

Kamille,

 

I know this was an issue you pondered before, the alcohol, the AlAnon, is he or isn't he an alcoholic stuff.

 

May I just say that MOST people in the UK have a drink on a daily basis - usually 2 -3 glasses of wine or beer. Now, I'm not saying that it is the behaviour one should adopt if training for a marathon, but I think that others need to put his habit into some perspective. In France and Italy, they drink wine with lunch and a few glasses with dinner. Are there whole swaths of alcoholics swarming across continental Europe? No.

 

Stick to what you know and you're going to soar. His drinking is his deal. So long as your life isn't affected adversely, there is no need for you to monitor/think about it etc.

 

i'm slightly concerned you responded to those parts of the thread rather than the more positive messages. I know that's natural and that you were defending your bf and your own perspective though, so I guess I'm just being paranoid that you'll go off in a tailspin thinking about it again, getting the compulsion to control. I don't think you will though, you seem very grounded in it all.

 

Look at what he is/does in the relationship. You are happy with him. You love spending time with him. You are in love. Believe me, if someone had a drinking problem, you wouldn't be having these wonderful times, you'd be crying your eyes out wondering who this person beside you was. You'd have ALOT of Jeckyll and Hyde unpredictability and unreliability.

 

Stick with what you know. You're calm and at peace at the moment. Cherish that.

[Kamille]

Kamille,

 

I know this was an issue you pondered before, the alcohol, the AlAnon, is he or isn't he an alcoholic stuff.

 

May I just say that MOST people in the UK have a drink on a daily basis - usually 2 -3 glasses of wine or beer. Now, I'm not saying that it is the behaviour one should adopt if training for a marathon, but I think that others need to put his habit into some perspective. In France and Italy, they drink wine with lunch and a few glasses with dinner. Are there whole swaths of alcoholics swarming across continental Europe? No.

 

Stick to what you know and you're going to soar. His drinking is his deal. So long as your life isn't affected adversely, there is no need for you to monitor/think about it etc.

 

i'm slightly concerned you responded to those parts of the thread rather than the more positive messages. I know that's natural and that you were defending your bf and your own perspective though, so I guess I'm just being paranoid that you'll go off in a tailspin thinking about it again, getting the compulsion to control. I don't think you will though, you seem very grounded in it all.

 

Look at what he is/does in the relationship. You are happy with him. You love spending time with him. You are in love. Believe me, if someone had a drinking problem, you wouldn't be having these wonderful times, you'd be crying your eyes out wondering who this person beside you was. You'd have ALOT of Jeckyll and Hyde unpredictability and unreliability.

 

Stick with what you know. You're calm and at peace at the moment. Cherish that.

 

Thanks datingmum. I do get really confused about alcoholism and I was confused about it from the get go.

 

the dominant discourse about alcoholism around me had me not see that I was having control issues about it, and was certainly allowing me not to take responsibility for them.

 

But realizing I had control issues was incredibly liberating. I felt like I was discorvering a whole new side of myself.