He's still having doubts.

[dreamergrl]

That's a good question dreamergrl.

 

It depends what kind of changes we are talking about. This is purely hypothetical. If he became angry, or beratting, or uncaring, or disrespectful in anyway, no I couldn't accept it. If he hit me, I'm out. If it started impacting his work, I would need to reevaluate a lot of things.

 

Sorry for all the questions Kamile! I get curious about situations that are similar but have such different aspects. I find it interesting how people can share a common issue such as drinking, and handle it in so many different ways. My dad ended up with a gambling problem when he was drinking, my first bf didn't get angry, but his personality changed in ways like he thought he wanted different things in life. My last ex placed all blame on others when he drank - none of his problems where his fault. He could get rather mean. You bf manages to stay the same. I wonder if I could have been as accepting if it was that way.

[Kamille]

Sorry for all the questions Kamile! I get curious about situations that are similar but have such different aspects. I find it interesting how people can share a common issue such as drinking, and handle it in so many different ways. My dad ended up with a gambling problem when he was drinking, my first bf didn't get angry, but his personality changed in ways like he thought he wanted different things in life. My last ex placed all blame on others when he drank - none of his problems where his fault. He could get rather mean. You bf manages to stay the same. I wonder if I could have been as accepting if it was that way.

 

Interesting. Now it's my turn to be intrigued. So, in all these relationships it was clear that it was the habit that was the issue? What I mean is, did you have a hard time accepting the drinking or the behaviours it provoked?

[Saxis]

So far I agree with the others who've said that his doubts stem from insecurity brought on by the recent break-up. It makes sense to me. He felt pressured into choosing you or the bottle. Your emotions made that decision for him over a fight. He felt rejected and insecure, sees it as an exercise of control perhaps, vulnerability; he knows you could walk away any time.

 

Now you canceled the date? I could only imagine the greater doubt he is feeling right now. For both of your sakes, I hope he doesn't turn this into resentment...

[dreamergrl]

Interesting. Now it's my turn to be intrigued. So, in all these relationships it was clear that it was the habit that was the issue? What I mean is, did you have a hard time accepting the drinking or the behaviours it provoked?

 

Yeah. Here's some examples:

My dad - went out drinking - joined a poker game - came home in the morning still drunk but had happened to win a sports car. Things like that only happened when he went out to drink. He also became much more serious when he sobered up. When he started drinking again (after many years of sobriety) his personality lightened up more. Although he gained control of how often and how much he drank.

 

My first bf - While I didn't realize it at the time because I was just 17 - does the same thing he does now. We got back into contact, and stay in touch via IM. When we talk when he's drinking - he wants a relationship and hates to be alone. When he's sober he feels best to be alone. When he's drunk he hates his life, when he's sober he feels content with how it is. He only drinks on the weekends but he takes it to an extreme.

 

My recent ex - Generally smart, caring, and clear headed when sober (as long as he wasn't trying to scrap up money for vodka - which I may add put his attitude ten times worse then beer). When he started drinking - if you were around him, you were at fault. Nasty words flying out of his mouth. I got compared to his ex ALL the time - and not in a good way. "You should take cooking lessons from her, you suck" so I don't cook, it turns into him throwing a potato at me saying "Cook me me some f'n food."

Then the next day he doesn't remember, because he put away a liter of vodka. One night I just poured it down the drain when he temp passed out. He didn't like that too much. Now this was at home drinking. If we were out drinking at a bar (yeah I know I shouldn't have contributed but I was at the point where I stopped caring) he was great to me, and a jerk to others. Worried about me, how I was, if guys hit on me ect ect. If he really needed to he could put on an act and act sober - but half the time he didn't care.

 

I wonder if these behaviors weren't there how much of a problem I would have had with it. Although regardless, the liter of vodka in a day - yeah that would have been a problem.

[Kamille]

So far I agree with the others who've said that his doubts stem from insecurity brought on by the recent break-up. It makes sense to me. He felt pressured into choosing you or the bottle. Your emotions made that decision for him over a fight. He felt rejected and insecure, sees it as an exercise of control perhaps, vulnerability; he knows you could walk away any time.

 

Now you canceled the date? I could only imagine the greater doubt he is feeling right now. For both of your sakes, I hope he doesn't turn this into resentment...

 

He knows how upset I was and I explained to him what I said here: that my emotions were a bit all over the place and that I thought it was just better if I took the day to get think a little.

 

He didn't sound resentful on the phone at all. Rather, he said he understood and for me not to worry about it.

 

He knows I love him. But you're right. I think we need to tackle the issue that he might feel vulnerable because I was able to throw him away like an old dish rag, something he kept repeating yesterday as something he could never do to me. Which, once I got over being compared to an old dig rash (), made me realize that this is how he must feel about the whole thing.

 

I am still glad I took the day for myself. I feel much calmer. And we made plans to see each other tomorow.

[melodymatters]

Hi Kamille,

 

I've been following your threads, but haven't had anything of worth to post. Perhaps I still don't, lol, but I can talk about drinking in my life and in my relationships.

 

I, am like your boyfriend. I tend to have 2-4 drinks an evening. usually I'll get home and open a beer or pour a glass of wine while I'm cooking. If I'm home alone, I prob stop at 2 , if I'm socializing, it's get closer to 5 max.

 

It seems to me, like an adult, slow, unwinding way of drinking, one an hour say, then food, then maybe another. I never get "drunk" and my personality certainly doesn't change.

 

So, while that is very common in Europe and many other places, it's not here, so I tend to date other "drinkers". NOW, some have been like me or your BF, but some have had work problems, personality changes etc. The former, no problem, the latter, no way. My late husband, my daughters father was an INSANE, abusive, personality chnager when he drank, so after that I was always careful to find the people who like to drink, but aren't overy affected by it. The first step of AA's twelve steps is : " Is drinking making your life unmanageable ?".Personally I have always taken THAT as the truest test.

 

I even had a serious relationship with a recovering alcoholic, he was sober 17 yrs by that time and very comfortable with his sobriety, and he never had a problem with my drinking or, thought that I had a problem with drinking. He was a very driven business man who like to smoke a joint before bedtime. I didn't have a problem with that.

 

I can't speak for any of the other issues you two may be having, but I thought drawing a picture of another persons experience with alcohol and relationships couldn't hurt.

 

Good luck to you my dear friend, I know you will thrive no matter what life throws in your path !

[Kamille]

I wonder if these behaviors weren't there how much of a problem I would have had with it. Although regardless, the liter of vodka in a day - yeah that would have been a problem.

 

You last ex sounds like he really had a huge problem.

 

I have an uncle who struggles with alcoholism who sounds a bit like a mix of your first bf and your dad: he'll do grand gestures and kind of have an insane zest for life when he's on a good binge - that is, until he passes out somewhere. When he's not drinking, you have to walk on eggshells around him.

 

For now, I will focus on the fact that he treats me well and seems to be able to manage his life and his habits. I was really trying to figure out how to accept it in Feb, at the time when we had the fight, but I realized that he wasn't going to be able to make me accept it, I needed to do that myself.

[TheFonz]

Seriously, though, why did you cancel the date? Couldn't you have gone out and enjoyed eachother's company without any relationship talk?

 

I know, I know it's hard to do when you are bursting at the seams just wanting to have your questions answered and your fears allayed.

 

 

That's what I suggested for her to do. She wants to see him anyway. Now she's pulled back in a predictable maneuver. He's going to, if he plays it right, not react and pull back too. How does all this help his doubts? Now it's become a battle of wills. If you don't stay constant how are you going to test the dependent variable?? Oh well, I'm only on post #49 so far so I don't know what the other replies say.

[Saxis]

He didn't sound resentful on the phone at all. Rather, he said he understood and for me not to worry about it.

 

He knows I love him. But you're right. I think we need to tackle the issue that he might feel vulnerable because I was able to throw him away like an old dish rag, something he kept repeating yesterday as something he could never do to me. Which, once I got over being compared to an old dig rash (), made me realize that this is how he must feel about the whole thing.

 

I am still glad I took the day for myself. I feel much calmer. And we made plans to see each other tomorow.

 

If the assumption that he's feeling vulnerable is correct (which is most plausible and probable) it's probably a good idea you rescheduled for tomorrow. Those feelings are hard to break once they start, and a simple rejection like that can be disastrous. I've had my fair share of experience with that. It was met by more neglect and I definitely went into resentment mode. Insecurity sucks...

 

How predictable are his reactions? If you give it to him straight and lay it all on the line, would he be one to take it as rejection or opportunity?

[dreamergrl]

You last ex sounds like he really had a huge problem.

 

I have an uncle who struggles with alcoholism who sounds a bit like a mix of your first bf and your dad: he'll do grand gestures and kind of have an insane zest for life when he's on a good binge - that is, until he passes out somewhere. When he's not drinking, you have to walk on eggshells around him.

 

For now, I will focus on the fact that he treats me well and seems to be able to manage his life and his habits. I was really trying to figure out how to accept it in Feb, at the time when we had the fight, but I realized that he wasn't going to be able to make me accept it, I needed to do that myself.

 

I think huge problem is yet an understatement. I ask myself everyday what the heck was I thinking. I used to drink quite a bit - but as I grew older - it phases out. I'll go out for a drink and what not and can control myself. I thought maybe the same would happen to him - and we could have the good times that we did have when he wasn't like that.

 

I hope everything works out for you Kamile!

[Star Gazer]

Well, I think somewhere in the back of each our mind, we believe that it's either moving to that other city together, or letting things go for good. If we don't move to the same city, we would be living 6 hours apart. Considering things are rocky now, I think the stakes are high for either distance or moving in.

 

Most of my friends are like: there's no rush, distance will be a good test on your R, etc. but I just don't get how. For me it is clear that distance would only complicate things further.

 

I agree with your friends.

 

In a LDR, all you have is communication, trust, and understanding to rely upon - the FOUNDATION of a healthy relationship. You come to learn reeeeeeeally quickly once distance is thrown into the mix whether you really have those things.

[Kamille]

Hi Kamille,

 

I've been following your threads, but haven't had anything of worth to post. Perhaps I still don't, lol, but I can talk about drinking in my life and in my relationships.

 

I, am like your boyfriend. I tend to have 2-4 drinks an evening. usually I'll get home and open a beer or pour a glass of wine while I'm cooking. If I'm home alone, I prob stop at 2 , if I'm socializing, it's get closer to 5 max.

 

It seems to me, like an adult, slow, unwinding way of drinking, one an hour say, then food, then maybe another. I never get "drunk" and my personality certainly doesn't change.

 

So, while that is very common in Europe and many other places, it's not here, so I tend to date other "drinkers". NOW, some have been like me or your BF, but some have had work problems, personality changes etc. The former, no problem, the latter, no way. My late husband, my daughters father was an INSANE, abusive, personality chnager when he drank, so after that I was always careful to find the people who like to drink, but aren't overy affected by it. The first step of AA's twelve steps is : " Is drinking making your life unmanageable ?".Personally I have always taken THAT as the truest test.

 

I even had a serious relationship with a recovering alcoholic, he was sober 17 yrs by that time and very comfortable with his sobriety, and he never had a problem with my drinking or, thought that I had a problem with drinking. He was a very driven business man who like to smoke a joint before bedtime. I didn't have a problem with that.

 

I can't speak for any of the other issues you two may be having, but I thought drawing a picture of another persons experience with alcohol and relationships couldn't hurt.

 

Good luck to you my dear friend, I know you will thrive no matter what life throws in your path !

 

Thank you so much MM. I am finding out that when it comes to alcohol, everyone, and especially me, as an opinion. Al Anon is also helping me understand that what you've go to go on is the present, and what you know. And, honestly, (don't flame me AC), I am starting to see that bf is managing his life.

 

People like to paint scary pictures of someone spinning out of control, and to be honest, that was the stereotype I struggled with. My parents don't drink much and basically raised my sister and I to believe that if you drank alone, you had a problem. So, obviously, when bf would get home a pour himself one, two, three, four, five drinks, it brought about a lot of fears for me. I was imagining myself getting involved with someone who, in 5, 10, 15 years would be a raging alcoholic.

 

I no longer believe that. Or rather, now I believe that I shouldn't base my current decisions on fears, but rather on the present and what I know now.

[marlena]

I think MM stated things better than I could. An adult nursing a few of drinks every evening just to unwind does not necessarily mean that he/she is an alcoholic. Like Melody, I, too, often have two to three drinks over a space of three hours let's say and it does not in any way affect my personality or behaviour nor does it put me out of control or influence my judgement. I, too, prefer to socialize with people who like to drink when out at bars or out dining and we are all far from alcoholics that's for sure. We are all responsible people with good careers and a level head on out shoulders.

 

Kamille, if your boyfriend drinks slowly and the alcohol does not affect his personality, this could just mean that he has a high tolerance for alcohol. Perhaps this is something you could learn to accept as long as it does not negatively impact your relationship or your life. As for the smoking, perhaps you could have a separate room where he can smoke whenver he feels like it.

 

If you love him, you will accept these things about him because of all other redeeming qualities he may have.

 

However, if all these two things are dealbreakers for you, then, you shouldn't change yourself for him either. You would just have to admit that your life-styles are so different that it would never work.

 

Kamille, answer me only if you want to. Could there be more to this than just the alcohol issue?

[Kamille]

If the assumption that he's feeling vulnerable is correct (which is most plausible and probable) it's probably a good idea you rescheduled for tomorrow. Those feelings are hard to break once they start, and a simple rejection like that can be disastrous. I've had my fair share of experience with that. It was met by more neglect and I definitely went into resentment mode. Insecurity sucks...

 

How predictable are his reactions? If you give it to him straight and lay it all on the line, would he be one to take it as rejection or opportunity?

 

Straight with him about what? I'm not sure I understand what he would take as rejections or opportunity.

 

One of the things that he knows about me is that I am always straight with him. I think this is why he didn't read my request for the resched as a threat but rather as something I really needed for myself.

 

To be honest, today has made me realize that I am still on the same page I was yesterday: I want to give us a chance. And I think this is what I will tell him tomorow. I think if I had seen him today, my actions might have still been fear based.

[Kamille]

I agree with your friends.

 

In a LDR, all you have is communication, trust, and understanding to rely upon - the FOUNDATION of a healthy relationship. You come to learn reeeeeeeally quickly once distance is thrown into the mix whether you really have those things.

 

See... I feel like we do have communication, trust and understanding. Well, at least I did until he started talking about doubts. I think there is something we aren't communicating well, and it is most likely linked to how vulnerable he now feels. I think we can communicate about what's going on rationnally right now, and make a sound decision about whether or not we should move together, and whether or not we should try a LDR for a bit.

 

I know the majority of people here most likely feel it is ridiculous to consider moving to another city with someone who just expressed doubts about the relationship. You have to realize that his doubts were expressed in the time-frame of 'ah ****, I have to figure out how I feel about you within the next months'. The doubts are directly related to the move. We haven't really talked about the whole issue of moving yet. We just said that we still had time to think about it. I guess he's feeling like time is running out.

[Kamille]

Kamille, answer me only if you want to. Could there be more to this than just the alcohol issue?

 

 

You've asked this before and he's asked this before:

 

The answer is yes, of course. I think for me it was also linked to feeling choked by the relationship. I have taken steps to take responsibility for my own well-being, and also for asserting my own boundaries better. this whole second chance thing has also helped me gain perspective on a lot of things.

 

One thing bother me though. I have been feeling like he was much better at listening to me and giving me the space I needed. I thought he was making an effort that way. All this time, maybe it wasn't that he was more attentative to my boundaries, maybe he was just having doubts. I will ask him when we talk through it all.

[melodymatters]

Right ! And, one of my dearest friends is a medical doctor. We have dated on and off for YEARS, it's always a timing/location issue, and we have a joke that we will end up growing old together once kids, location, and businesses are no longer an issue. He drinks like I drink, and we both drink the same way we did nearly 20 yrs ago when we first dated. So I DON"T believe that it is neccesarily a "progressive disease" if you are not suffering from the "disease" of alcoholism to begin with.

 

Then, you look at it as a potential medical issue, which my friend the doc, checks his liver enzyme levels once in a while, and they are always fine. Honestly, if we lived in Australia, this wouldn't even be a conversation !

 

So, no social, health, family or work problems : not a problem.

 

I know this is not the current thinking in western medicine, and perhaps some AA people will disagree, but I have never subscribed to a knee jerk way of thinking, and believe we all have a right to define things for ourselves and how they work in our lives.

[Saxis]

Straight with him about what? I'm not sure I understand what he would take as rejections or opportunity.

 

One of the things that he knows about me is that I am always straight with him. I think this is why he didn't read my request for the resched as a threat but rather as something I really needed for myself.

 

That pretty much answered my question. I wasn't asking about anything in particular, just an example of how he handles situations to get a read on his security. Isn't that really what doubt is?

 

I too wonder if the alcohol is only a small part of the issue. I like to have a drink or two, and some days more after work, with dinner or later in the evening. Not every day, but often enough that I have taken notice. I don't let it get far enough to start affecting my mood though. Then again, no one has spoken up and voiced any concern either...

[Saxis]

One thing bother me though. I have been feeling like he was much better at listening to me and giving me the space I needed. I thought he was making an effort that way. All this time, maybe it wasn't that he was more attentative to my boundaries, maybe he was just having doubts. I will ask him when we talk through it all.

 

I chalk that up to feeling insecure and vulnerable too. When things seem like they're slipping, it's natural to grab on tighter. Maybe that's it?

[Art_Critic]

I think you all are trying to talk yourselves into believing that the Alcohol isn't a problem..

 

It seems to me that he is a Functional Alcoholic..

 

5 drinks a day does equate to an Alcoholic if you throw in the fact that he can't/won't stop drinking and he won't get help while you go to Alanon meetings and there seems to be relationship problems stemming from his drinking..He drinks to escape.. he binge drinks..

 

There are health consequences to drinking 5 drinks a day.. it takes 20-30 years to destroy your liver....Dying of cirrhosis of the liver is a hard way to die.. and there are many other health issues that will arise before the liver is taken out.. diabetes for one and many other issues.

 

for the record.. my personality never changed under the influence.. and I continued to work and run a company..

But I'm an Alcoholic.. trust me on that statement...

 

You have only known him 6 months.. there is more to this.. time will make it worse.. it is a progressive disease and his drinking will get worse..

Here is why I believe that. a post I quoted from another one of your threads about his drinking problems..

 

 

 

Last night, after the night before's talk about him easing up on alcool, I was feeling in a good mood and was making a dinner for us and was super happy to see him when he came home. I felt lighthearted for the first time in a long time. He then says 'if you don't mind, tonight for xyz reasons, I will have beer but in exchange I won't drink tomorow or the day after '. I answered 'hmmm ok - I mean, that really is up to you. You say you can ease up on your drinking so it's up to you to decide how you do it'. I tried to stay chipper, but by the time the bottle of scotch came out, I felt angry, hurt, like I was fooling myself, like he was in denial, like nothing was going to change - ever.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Art_Critic

[marlena]

The answer is yes, of course. I think for me it was also linked to feeling choked by the relationship.

 

Yes, now I remember. Perhaps you, too, are a bit frightened to commit. I don't blame you. It is rather scary if you have been independent most of your life or if you have had your heart wrenched out of you enough times.

 

All the more reason to take this slowly and get to know one another better. You haven't been dating all that long really. It is a shame that he is moving away. Bad timing, I must say. His relocating will force the issue and decisions will have to be eventually made.

 

But July is still three months away. Relax and try to enjoy the time you have together without stress and worry. Let things be for a time. Perhaps in a month or two things will become clearer for the both of you.

 

Things have a way of working out for the best in the long run, Kamille.

[dreamergrl]

I think you all are trying to talk yourselves into believing that the Alcohol isn't a problem..

 

It seems to me that he is a Functional Alcoholic..

 

5 drinks a day does equate to an Alcoholic if you throw in the fact that he can't/won't stop drinking and he won't get help while you go to Alanon meetings and there seems to be relationship problems stemming from his drinking..He drinks to escape.. he binge drinks..

 

There are health consequences to drinking 5 drinks a day.. it takes 20-30 years to destroy your liver....Dying of cirrhosis of the liver is a hard way to die.. and there are many other health issues that will arise before the liver is taken out.. diabetes for one and many other issues.

 

for the record.. my personality never changed under the influence.. and I continued to work and run a company..

But I'm an Alcoholic.. trust me on that statement...

 

You have only known him 6 months.. there is more to this.. time will make it worse.. it is a progressive disease and his drinking will get worse..

Here is why I believe that. a post I quoted from another one of your threads about his drinking problems..

 

I don't think anyone claimed it's not an issue or problem - but there is a severity of the problem.

 

While yes I agree that 3-5 drinks daily is an issue - he's staying at a level. He's not drinking more to get to the same point. He isn't showing behavior signs (yes that's where the functioning part comes into play). It's not leading to other addictions.

 

He can't change for anyone but himself, and it's Kamile's choice on what she is willing to accept and handle. She did mention if certain behaviors came into play - it would be a different story.

[BareGoddess]

I don't think anyone claimed it's not an issue or problem - but there is a severity of the problem.

 

While yes I agree that 3-5 drinks daily is an issue - he's staying at a level. He's not drinking more to get to the same point. He isn't showing behavior signs (yes that's where the functioning part comes into play). It's not leading to other addictions.

 

He can't change for anyone but himself, and it's Kamile's choice on what she is willing to accept and handle. She did mention if certain behaviors came into play - it would be a different story.

 

Alcohol is a progressive disease. Trust me, if he keeps drinking at that rate it will only be a matter of time (could be years though) that the "ante" will be upped. No doubt about it.

 

No one, NO ONE, drinks at the rate he is and doesn't start to drink more at some point...if they don't stop that is.

[Kamille]

Let me just say that my reflections on alcohol and alcoholism is always changing, but that I now feel like I can accept his current relationship to alcohol. When/if it becomes a problem, then I will reevaluate.

 

Now, I'm wondering if I should just be bluntly honest with him tomorow and tell him I'm still all in - or should I give him the space he needs. Or should I tell him I'm still all in and give him the space he needs? Would telling him I'm still sure I want him my life put undue pressure on him as he is trying to figure out where his doubts are coming from?

(oh look, the original topic)

[Art_Critic]

I don't think anyone claimed it's not an issue or problem - but there is a severity of the problem.

 

While yes I agree that 3-5 drinks daily is an issue - he's staying at a level. He's not drinking more to get to the same point. He isn't showing behavior signs (yes that's where the functioning part comes into play). It's not leading to other addictions.

 

He can't change for anyone but himself, and it's Kamile's choice on what she is willing to accept and handle. She did mention if certain behaviors came into play - it would be a different story.

 

First off.. Kamille is codependent so that is why she is willing to accept his behavior and drinking

 

Secondly.. She doesn't know how much he is really drinking right now.. they are broken up...

If he really is staying on a certain level it is because the spotlight is on him.. He will drink more...

 

Go back and read the quoted post from her earlier thread that I posted..The one where he pulled out a bottle of scotch right after saying he wasn't going to drink

He can't control his drinking...

 

I hid the amount I drank from just about everyone..including a GF that I had lived with for 4 years...

I wuold suspect that he is hiding the amounts now that she has an issue with it.. With a functional Alcoholic the amount is almost never going to be able to be figured out unless you count their drinks.. Which Alanon will teach her not to do...