He's still having doubts.

[Advocate's Devilette]

Honestly I think you should revisit your first instinct of why you broke up with him in the first place. You obviously thought at the time that it wasn't right for you. Then you seemed to have gotten lonely and decided to get back together.

Your first instinct to break up with him was probably the correct one, and deep down inside you know that.

This guy sounds like a loser, anyway. It seems like you two have totally different core values - he's a chain smoking drunk, you aren't.

[Advocate's Devilette]

Hmmm... maybe he's right to still have doubts.

Fine, but who gives a s**t about what he thinks, it's about what you want and deep down inside you know you can do better than this loser. You are already trying to hard to please him by paying him the fiver, that is ridiculous you did that.

[Kamille]

Hey K....

 

Do you wonder if it has something to do with unconscious revenge on his part? You left him and walked away for a bit (he was hurt) because you had your concerns. Perhaps the ego is kicking in over that.

 

When I first dated my ex husband, I broke up with him after 6 months I was concerned with the age difference (haha- look at me now)... anyhow- he begged to have me back, we worked it out, and then he sort of pulled the same thing with me that your guy is pulling with you. It just took a bit for me to realize he was protecting himself from being hurt again.

 

When you left him before- you took some power from him. Maybe he doesn't realize it- but he might be trying to re-set his ego.

 

Because you left him- he must have some recognition that you could do it again. It might be scary to him. He may even have a slight bit of resentment over the fact that you are capable of making him vulnerable.

 

Or is that too deep an explanation?

lol.

 

I'd just take a little step back and let him figure it out.

You're still the prize my dear... don't forget that.

 

Aw D, your analysis is spot on.

 

I was the first girl to ever break up with this guy. He has had 2 other serious Rs, and ended both of them and would usually be the dumper in all of his flings.

 

he said tonight that he just feels very vulnerable. That he is scared ****less that it will all fall apart.

 

He had been expressing resentment up until two weeks ago, but we talked about that and I feel like he has let go of a lot of it.

 

AC, I admit I have been slagging on the meetings. I'm going to this week's meeting promised.

[Art_Critic]

AC, I admit I have been slagging on the meetings. I'm going to this week's meeting promised.

 

atta girl... ......... sorry I've mother henned you

[Kamille]

Honestly I think you should revisit your first instinct of why you broke up with him in the first place. You obviously thought at the time that it wasn't right for you. Then you seemed to have gotten lonely and decided to get back together.

Your first instinct to break up with him was probably the correct one, and deep down inside you know that.

This guy sounds like a loser, anyway. It seems like you two have totally different core values - he's a chain smoking drunk, you aren't.

 

We broke up in the middle of a fight. It wasn't the result of some long thought out decision. My new motto: never break up to end a fight.

 

And he gave me back the fiver when he reached me outside. I was too choked up to speak and didn't want to just leave. Plus, I never assume he should have to pay for me, unless he formerly invites me somewhere.

[D-Lish]

Aw D, your analysis is spot on.

 

I was the first girl to ever break up with this guy. He has had 2 other serious Rs, and ended both of them and would usually be the dumper in all of his flings.

 

he said tonight that he just feels very vulnerable. That he is scared ****less that it will all fall apart.

 

He had been expressing resentment up until two weeks ago, but we talked about that and I feel like he has let go of a lot of it.

 

AC, I admit I have been slagging on the meetings. I'm going to this week's meeting promised.

 

In that case, it's probably important to let him work through it himself.... and he will.

 

My ex had a few weeks of resentment behaviour and then he got back to normal.

 

If he's never been dumped before, I am sure it's scary for him to experience loss.

[Kamille]

Well I think we all have egos and we all do things to protect them, be it through resentment or defensiveness. I am not expecting him to be egoless, just like I can recognize that my ego acted up and hindered me from hearing him out.

 

The fact is, we talked about the resentment, and he was able to recognize he was feeling resentful.

 

He also feels baffled and confused at how easily I was able to turn the page and it makes him feel even more frustrated that he can't seem to do it so easily. (When the dust settled, I suddenly realized that I had been trying to control something that was out of my control because of my own fears of alcoolism).

[PRSun]

Hey I'm not framiliar with your relationship history. What were the grounds around your break up and how did you get back together?

[Kamille]

Hey I'm not framiliar with your relationship history. What were the grounds around your break up and how did you get back together?

 

I sum it up elsewhere in the thread, and there are back up threads on here.

 

The jist of it is that Ì was concerned about his smoking and drinking and started adopting controlling behaviours about it that actually only served to drive me nuts, and make me resentful.

 

We broke up during a fight we were having because of my perception and his perception of his drinking.

 

I went to my first Al Anon meeting to learn to deal with the issues I had about alcool.

 

A few days after the break up, we met up so I could move my stuff out of his place (I was slowly moving in), and had that kind of heart to heart talk you have. We both decided to take a few days to think about what we really wanted.

 

When he showed up on the day we said we would meet to discuss, I was feeling really calm, really balanced, ready to take my responsibility for how I had let alcool become a control issue.

 

He showed up resentful. He said he had shown up no knowing what he wanted, that he was surprised at my reaction and that it made him want to try and work things out.

 

Since then (I guess that was a month ago) I have always kind of been the cheerleader, the one to say I believe in the relationship, and he has been holding back, acting more distant and now flatly saying he has doubts.

 

The distance and doubts are starting to get to me. As my original post clearly shows.

[Advocate's Devilette]

If he is backing off, I would back off, too. Let him come to you, since he has told you what he has.

[PRSun]

Hmmm. Sounds fun.

 

Alcohol is usaually a good way to mask your emotions and feelings so it doesn't really bode well that drinking has been a staple since inception. I'm assuming your both living sober at this point or the roots of your issues are getting fertilizer. Now that you've had this emotional stunt show, and your trying to carry on as a couple it's concievable you both have scars causing laitent thoughts to surface and emotional outburst on varying levels.

 

The changes to his life have also left him confused about where he "should be" at this point in his life. Majory changes like the stoppage of alcohol abuse for males often shifts priorities and attitudes in unexpected ways. More often then not they won't be too definate about what they want specifically since socilization through alcohol dominated so much of that thought. That void slowly fills with repressed thoughts and new ideas about values. They may not always be positive from the point of view of surrounding parties and partners.

[Star Gazer]

I don't know Jilly, he said he'd been struggling with those doubts for awhile now.

 

K, you know I love you. But this was obvious, to all of us. I'm actually really surprised that you didn't know this... I thought it was the subject of your last thread about his doubts? He's had them since the day you really, truly questioned (whether out loud or not I don't know) whether you'd be able to handle his drinking, and had even stronger doubts since you officially took time apart. I don't blame him. A breakup and shaky ground can cause anyone to wonder how strong their relationship is. I wonder, though, why you don't have doubts as well...and have them right now?

 

I understand your desire to push forward and work through issues. But as much as you want to, you can't just start fresh and pretend like he's not who he is and you two have experienced what you have. He's "testing things out" which I don't think is the best way to go about things, but on the other hand you've jumped right back into the pond with two feet without looking. Neither perspective really seems like the best route though.

 

BTW - did you ever ask him to explain what he meant by "testing things out"... what he meant and why he feels that need?

 

Also, did he explain why he has doubts at this point?

 

Yeah, when the mature-me is thinking through this, this is pretty much what I'm thinking. And I do trust him, and do trust him not to lead me on. And that if he said I loved you, he meant it as I love You and I wouldn't purposefully hurt you.

 

Right. I don't think he's a player, not by a long shot. But you gotta know that given the context of how he said this to you, he's not saying that he won't hurt you.

[Ariadne]

Ah,

 

Let the drunkard go. He is making you fat even with his food.

 

Just get pregnant or something first. At least something.

 

Since he seems to want you for sex...

[TheFonz]

I hate to agree with some of the girls on here that always blame the guy first but from what you said this guy sort of sounds like a losers, sorry. He says he has doubts. What are these specific doubts? You never mentioned anything specific. So if his doubts are all because you broke up for a short while a month ago then he has doubts because he's insecure, egotistic, and resentful. I mean I can understand him playing it safe, but there are no guarantees in a relationship. I sort of underestand him having doubts though. You knew he was a loser but you broke up with him just to get back together. That was a power move and games. I actually think what he did turn out to be a great manuever. But he either want to be with you or he doesn't. You say you don't like doubts and uncertainty in a relationship, but I think he's probably strengthen his hand by inserting them.

My advice to you is to do nothing and act like you never had the conversation. How he responds to that will tell the real tale.

[AlanChase]

I went to my first Al Anon meeting to learn to deal with the issues I had about alcool.

 

Unless you are an alcoholic yourself, this is classic enabler behavior. HE is the one who should be goin to AA and turning his life around.

 

But let's let those drunken dogs lie and address the even bigger issue of DOUBT:

 

Right now you need to determine how much you really value yourself and your love. It is a moment for tough questions!

 

1. Is this relationship really worth holding onto when the other person is not 100% on board?

2. Are you in love with this guy, or just what he represents to you?

3. Are you making excuses for him out of emotional dependence?

4. How much of this are you really willing to put up with?

 

From a man's perspective, if you continue to give him all of your love and attention when he is not reciprocating, well that becomes even more of a turn-off. You should definitely consider taking a step back from all this and give him TONS of space to make him realize what he is missing out on.

 

I wouldn't hold too big of a candle for him though TBH. When you really love someone, there is no doubt about it.

[Kamille]

K, you know I love you. But this was obvious, to all of us. I'm actually really surprised that you didn't know this... I thought it was the subject of your last thread about his doubts? He's had them since the day you really, truly questioned (whether out loud or not I don't know) whether you'd be able to handle his drinking, and had even stronger doubts since you officially took time apart. I don't blame him. A breakup and shaky ground can cause anyone to wonder how strong their relationship is. I wonder, though, why you don't have doubts as well...and have them right now?

 

I knew he was having doubts, but I didn't realize how deep they went I guess. I don't know why I didn't have doubts, or why I was able to turn the page so easily. I think I've been reaping the benefits of getting more time for myself. Plus, we talked about this yesterday: he keeps his cards really close to his chest. He had been acting loving and when we had the last conversations about my insecurity he responded by reassuring and telling me I had nothing to worry about. I believed him.

 

 

BTW - did you ever ask him to explain what he meant by "testing things out"... what he meant and why he feels that need?

 

Also, did he explain why he has doubts at this point?

 

I asked him what his doubts were about and he couldn't answer me. He said that he couldn't really pinpoint it and that he felt like it would be counterproductive to go digging for a problem. There is the upcoming move that seems to be making him feel pressure to decide. We had discussed moving together and this is mostly what he his having doubts about. He is afraid that we would move together and everything would fall apart.

 

I asked him about 'testing things out' back then and he said it was just a difference in semantics.

 

The thing is that we have both been making the efforts to improve the relationship, in spite of the 'doubts' he expresses. He's not having doubts and treating me like shyte. He's also trying to stay in the R. Yesterday he repeated a few times that he could never throw me away like an old rag. (nice analogy). I was thinking this likely means that when we broke up, he felt that I had thrown him away like an old rag, especially since he never recognized that smoking and drinking could possible be valid issues.

 

Right. I don't think he's a player, not by a long shot. But you gotta know that given the context of how he said this to you, he's not saying that he won't hurt you.

 

You're right. I know he isn't saying he won't hurt me.

 

I just feel like crawling under a rock for a few days. I certainly don't feel up to our date tonight.

[Kamille]

Ah,

 

Let the drunkard go. He is making you fat even with his food.

 

Just get pregnant or something first. At least something.

 

Since he seems to want you for sex...

 

Thanks Ariadne, you made me smile as always.

 

Not the right time in my life for a kid though. I will wait until I have a job for that one.

[Kamille]

 

1. Is this relationship really worth holding onto when the other person is not 100% on board?

The answer for me is still yes. Just not at the cost of my self-esteem.

 

 

2. Are you in love with this guy, or just what he represents to you?

I am in love with the guy, almost in spite of what he represents to me.

 

3. Are you making excuses for him out of emotional dependence?

Doubt it. I am not afraid of being alone, I even enjoy it. But if you think I am emotionally depending (or if anyone thinks that I am), I would like to hear your point of view.

 

4. How much of this are you really willing to put up with?

 

Not much, to be honest.

 

From a man's perspective, if you continue to give him all of your love and attention when he is not reciprocating, well that becomes even more of a turn-off. You should definitely consider taking a step back from all this and give him TONS of space to make him realize what he is missing out on.

 

I wouldn't hold too big of a candle for him though TBH. When you really love someone, there is no doubt about it.

 

Thanks for your input Alan. Right now I feel like the ball is in his court.

[Kamille]

Hmmm. Sounds fun.

 

Alcohol is usaually a good way to mask your emotions and feelings so it doesn't really bode well that drinking has been a staple since inception. I'm assuming your both living sober at this point or the roots of your issues are getting fertilizer. Now that you've had this emotional stunt show, and your trying to carry on as a couple it's concievable you both have scars causing laitent thoughts to surface and emotional outburst on varying levels.

 

The changes to his life have also left him confused about where he "should be" at this point in his life. Majory changes like the stoppage of alcohol abuse for males often shifts priorities and attitudes in unexpected ways. More often then not they won't be too definate about what they want specifically since socilization through alcohol dominated so much of that thought. That void slowly fills with repressed thoughts and new ideas about values. They may not always be positive from the point of view of surrounding parties and partners.

 

He's cut back, but he hasn't stopped drinking.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by socializing through alcohol? I don't think he was using alcohol as a crutch. This might be being an enable, but I really don't think that's the role alcohol played in his life.

 

But he has made changes to the way he drinks, so I don't know. Maybe it is part of how he reevaluates things right now.

[Kamille]

I hate to agree with some of the girls on here that always blame the guy first but from what you said this guy sort of sounds like a losers, sorry. He says he has doubts. What are these specific doubts? You never mentioned anything specific. So if his doubts are all because you broke up for a short while a month ago then he has doubts because he's insecure, egotistic, and resentful. I mean I can understand him playing it safe, but there are no guarantees in a relationship. I sort of understand him having doubts though. You knew he was a loser but you broke up with him just to get back together. That was a power move and games. I actually think what he did turn out to be a great maneuver. But he either want to be with you or he doesn't. You say you don't like doubts and uncertainty in a relationship, but I think he's probably strengthen his hand by inserting them.

My advice to you is to do nothing and act like you never had the conversation. How he responds to that will tell the real tale.

 

Thanks the Fonz. This is actually good advice. I'm not sure I could act like the conversation never happened today. Or ever. We've never been much of an "it never happened" couple. What I will do is force myself to go to the gym, and have faith that however things fall into place, it'll be what is meant to be (thanks Jilly).

 

His doubts have more to do with the fact that we have big decisions to make this month about whether or not we will be moving together to another city in July.

 

I don't think and never thought he was a loser. My concerns about his drinking had a lot more to do with my own expectations for the future. I am afraid of alcoholism, but cannot predict what will happen, so all I have to go on is what I know now, and how I feel now in the relationship.

[marlena]

Kamille sweetie, I am sorry to hear this. You know that rock you mentioned that you want to crawl under? Maybe you should do just that. Give him time and space to think and feel what it is like to be without you. More improtantly, give yourself time and distance to re-evaluate your feelings and if necessary nudge your head a little to meet up with those feelings.

 

Like someone said ( I think Touche) love shouldn't be such hard work. You are both just in the beginning of the relationship and yet so many problems have already made their appearance. Some of the them are quite serious and can not be overlooked no matter how much you would like to pretend that they are not there.

 

Talking, hashing and rehashing, analysing and dissecting will only cause further friction IMO. At least it will at this point in time. Perhaps later.

 

I agree with D-lish's post 100%. I think he is not only feeling resentment at your efforts to try and break his bad habits but he is also probably questionning how compatible the two of you really are.

 

And so should you, my dear. You are right not to want uneccessary drama in your life and all the insecurity and doubt that go along with it. You strike me as a level-headed girl, down to earth,independent and fully aware of your boundaries. Perhaps, its time to put those boundaries into effect and do what is right for you.

 

You have only been together a short time and yet you have already broken up once over serious issues. None of the issues have really been resolved so you are both back at square one. I think (he's a foreigner, right?) that he really doesn't consider his smoking and drinking a real problem. A lot of Europeans don't. It is a cultural thing. He's entitled to think this. But for you, it evidently is a big problem and he knows this. I don't think he wants to change and this makes him feel pressured and cornered.

 

It is my experience that second chances hardly ever work. When two people break up, something in the relationship is irreparably broken as well. Hard to mend the pieces once again.

 

Do you really want to invest in a relationship that despite its good aspects has been rather bumpy right from the beginning? Are you willing to have your heart broken if things do not work out? Do you want to take the risk? Can you continue to feel insecure and doubtful?

 

Ask yourself: Is this what I really want? Is he who I really want? He will not change Kamille. This is who he is. Can you accept him the way he is without wanting to change him?

 

Another thing to consider is his leaving in July. His moving will only add more problems and if you feel insecure now, think how insecure you will feel when he is so faraway.

 

You are a wonderful girl and need someone to be invested heart and soul in you.

 

Be patient and take this slowly.

Edited April 2, 2008 by marlena

[Kamille]

I love your quote Marlena!

 

And thank you, I was actually hoping to hear from you because your words always really resonate with me.

 

And so should you, my dear. You are right not to want uneccessary drama in your life and all the insecurity and doubt that go along with it. You strike me as a level-headed girl, down to earth,independent and fully aware of your boundaries. Perhaps, its time to put those boundaries into effect and do what is right for you.

 

You have only been together a short time and yet you have already broken up once over serious issues. None of the issues have really been resolved so you are both back at square one. I think (he's a foreigner, right?) that he really doesn't consider his smoking and drinking a real problem. A lot of Europeans don't. it is a cultural thing. He's entitled to think this. But for you, it evidently is a big problem and he knows this. I don't think he wants to change and this makes him feel pressured and cornered.

 

This makes sense. If we moved together in July, we would be living together again. He has agreed to smoke outside but that still leaves how resentful I became about what he felt was a purely normal habit. I agree that rehashing is perhaps not the best way to go, and don't really feel like it is my place to delve deeper into what exactly his doubts consist of. I have asked him what they were and he was unable to answer. I told him after that I remained open to hearing about them.

 

Yet I know that he can't very well come up to me and say: it's because I really don't see the problem with drinking 3 beers and a scotch every night, and would just like to keep doing it. The thing is, now I believe that if he feels like having 3 beers and a scotch every night, it is up to him. I am willing to accept it.

 

He keeps his cards close to his chest. It's just a personality trait he has; something that allows him to protect himself. I think I wasn't aware exactly how deep the doubts went, because until he had made up his mind about it either way, he most likely didn't feel it was worth disrupting the relationship.

 

 

It is my experience that second chances hardly ever work. When two people break up, something in the relationship is irreparably broken as well. Hard to mend the pieces once again.

 

 

I know. I also have th experience that second chances hardly ever work, but then it is also my experience that first chances hardly ever work either . But second chances are trickier.

 

 

Do you really want to invest in a relationship that despite its good aspects has been rather bumpy right from the beginning? Are you willing to have your heart broken if things do not work out? Do you want to take the risk? Can you continue to feel insecure and doubtful?

 

I don't kow, I just don't know anymore. I am not afraid of a heartbreak. I know they are tough, but I have been through it before. What I am afraid of is that hanging on could be damaging to my well-being and self-esteem.

 

Ask yourself: Is this what I really want? Is he who I really want? He will not change Kamille. This is who he is. Can you accept him the way he is without wanting to change him?

 

That's the take away I got from the break up: in my previous relationship, both ex and I were very in each other's face about wanting to change the other. Somehow, that made us a match. What I have learned from my current bf is that I can't control everything, and that it actually feels much better not to want to do it.

 

Is he who I really want? Had you asked me yesterday the answer would have been: Yes. Is this what I really want? Insecurity and drama? No.

 

 

 

Another thing to consider is his leaving in July. His moving will only add more problems and if you feel insecure now, think how insecure you will feel when he is so faraway.

 

The thing is that we have to decide whether or not we would be moving together. Today I'm starting to feel that it would be foolish to move together. And unless we do, I don't see what the point of us going on as a couple is.

 

Crawling under rock now.

 

I am definitely cancelling the date tonight.

[Kamille]

I just called to cancel the date and now I'm in tears.

 

This is so hard. He asked if he could still drop by to see me today, sounding all chipper and I was like: uh, uh, uh. And then he told me, nicely, to call him when I felt up to seeing him.

 

I want to see him now, I want things to get better now! But I know seeing him doesn't necessarly mean things will get better. Or that seeing him when I feel like I have a lot of things to think about isn't going to be constructive.

[marlena]

Kamille,

 

Here's my shoulder to cry on, Kamille. Crying can be very cleansing and therapeutic. It's OK! Just don't let him know that you are crying.

 

Seriously, though, why did you cancel the date? Couldn't you have gone out and enjoyed eachother's company without any relationship talk?

 

I know, I know it's hard to do when you are bursting at the seams just wanting to have your questions answered and your fears allayed. Perhaps the timing is all wrong right now. He may be more open to discussion if he feels the pressure is off.

 

You needn't be so hard on yourself. It is obvious that he cares a great deal about you. He is probably in as much of a dilemma as you are.

 

Give it a rest for today. Perhaps you can see eachother tomorrow. It's not the end. You may work things out after all.

[Kamille]

Seriously, though, why did you cancel the date? Couldn't you have gone out and enjoyed eachother's company without any relationship talk?

 

I know, I know it's hard to do when you are bursting at the seams just wanting to have your questions answered and your fears allayed. Perhaps the timing is all wrong right now. He may be more open to discussion if he feels the pressure is off.

 

 

We had planned a dinner date, so it is very conducive to talking. I think the date would have too easily turned into a minefield, especially considering the mood I'm in. I really feel like I am bursting at the seams today. I want to get a better hold of my emotions before I see him.

 

 

But done crying now. I'm going to give myself some time so that I don't look like the red-eye monster, and then I am off to the gym. That should really help me feel better.

 

What else can I do to help me feel better? What do you guys do when you want a rapid drastic mood change?

Edited April 2, 2008 by Kamille