Stop sabotaging your fellow OW

[OpenBook]

I still refer to myself (here) as the OW because we've been told repeatedly that we're still the OW until the ink of the divorce is dry, and sometimes even then "he'll go back" so until the ink is dry on the (former)OW's M to the (formerly M)M, she's still the OW in the eyes of most on LS.

 

It is so unlike you to choose to conform to any projection, much less one that's seen through "the eyes of most on LS"... so I'll assume your tongue is planted firmly in your cheek here!

[Lookingforward]

I never considered myself the OW as I met him as he was leaving his wife and didn't get involved with him until after he had, but as Owoman said, I've been told that doesn't matter Iwas still an OW - oh well, doesn't change the way I see it, and that's what counts.

[Jess-Belle]

I'm happy for you that you are working on changing your toxic behavioral patterns. But I had the feeling you talked 'down from the high horse', which I think is inappropriate... I'm not a cheater apologist, but I think you were a rather extreme case... and now you are 'healed' for how long? After 15 years of cheating? Yeah, I'm a skeptic.

 

Feel free to shout from the rooftops, but be aware people might be shouting back from the streets...

 

Hmm, well if you could give me an example of the 'down' talk it would be helpful? Perhaps it has to do with one's own personal interpretation. In my point of view I was talking not from above but from within.. the perspective of someone who did the things I did and knows firsthand what the thinking can be like. And not even just my own thinking, but from what I've gathered from other fellow cheaters who agreed that yeah, that's how it goes.

 

In your other post you state that I post these things so others can be as happy as I am? That is not the case. My posts are information, nothing else. That's what everyone here is doing. If someone takes the information and winds up in a happier place because of it, then great, but I'm sure plenty won't, and as I stated, the intent isn't to force anyone to do anything.

 

Do you also get irked by philosophers? Self-help books? Your parents? Anyone who offers any kind of advice? Or just the kind that you don't want to hear because the possible truth scares you? Just curious.

 

I've been thinking about this 'extreme case' thing and I have a few questions for people to ponder:

 

Do you believe I am an extreme case? Or is it that I'm an honest case?

 

How many serial cheaters do you think will actually come out and admit that they are? How many do you think even realize it themselves?

 

How many cheaters do you think are honest about their past as to whether they've ever cheated before?

 

How many cheaters do you think want to see themselves as anything other than good and justified?

 

This one is a bit more complex, but think about it: Consider what I wrote in the first post, about the cheating rationale. Do you believe that what is written there is the resut of 15 years cumulative cheating, causing the rationale to become more and more screwed up?

Or will you consider that the rationale never changes, it is the thought process that is mulled through each time?

 

Because I'll tell you one thing: I've realized that what I wrote there, is what went through my mind each time, from the first time down to the last.

The crucial difference is, after doing it for this long, over and over again, I reached a point where I understood exactly what I was doing on every level. And possibly the most crucial point is, the ONLY thing allowing me to admit these things, was my desire to change. Without that, I'd still be holding the information as secrets in my mind, because I would still be in too much denial, and too ashamed, to really examine what I'd been doing.

 

I'm giving you something that, quite frankly, I believe is incredibly rare from a cheater: a well-examined perspective completely free of denial. Take it or ingore it as you please.

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong malaclypse but I think what really irks you about my post is the suggestion that this chick you got involved with just might think the way I used to.

I think it irks anyone still clinging to a ray of hope from their 'committed partner', or those who are simply still bitter from their little encounter with one of my kind.

Just some food for thought

 

As for your being a skeptic... that is EXCELLENT. That envelopes the gist of this thread... be a skeptic.

[OWoman]

Maybe it's not exactly denial, but it does take a weird kind of twisted logic to address those who offer support rather than bashing to OWs and accuse them of "sabotaging" those OWs, but hey, whatever rocks your seesaw.

[GreenEyedLady]

Maybe it's not exactly denial, but it does take a weird kind of twisted logic to address those who offer support rather than bashing to OWs and accuse them of "sabotaging" those OWs, but hey, whatever rocks your seesaw.

 

It seems from these threads lately that the only stories people want to hear and deal with are those that don't work out...

 

The reality is that there are those that work out too...But I guess the propagandists don't like it when their message is refuted in real life...Par for the course here...

 

And how is it not sabotage to tell OW that their MM don't love them, will never leave their M?

 

Interesting that it doesn't work both ways...

[Cagney]

Daer Jess-Belle:

 

I've read from your opening post to the end.

 

I've been searching for the words to describe the cake eater that I got addicted to but now you have managed to pull from the air one of the best summaries of what my affair with her was all about.

 

Thank you for your very keen observations and well put description.

 

So where ther hell were you when I needed you seven years ago?

 

Never mind, in those days, I would have resented you for the "mean stuff" you just said. What he hell do you know? Is what I would have said then.

 

Well, at least it helps now, while I'm reminding myself, every 10 minutes of each day, that I'm better off without her, and I frequently have to make a trip to the men's room to get control of myself so no one sees that I'm about to lose it.

 

FWIW: I understand that you're speaking in a general sense, that is to say, what is true, generally in most cases. There will always be some to complain because they are one of those rare exceptions to the general rule.

 

My case was NOT an exception to the rule. You're description was right on point.

 

So thanks!

Edited March 8, 2008 by Cagney

[frannie]

Well I think we need to hear all types of affair stories on this board. It's really undeniable that some MP really are in an affair where they love their AP and there is a real chance of them leaving, other situations are completely different. The question for OP surely is: how can I tell which one I'm in..? What hope is there of this relationship becoming legitimate, and when do I cut my losses?

 

I can see how some people think that sharing stories where the MM leaves might give OW who have no real reason to hope 'false hope'. But I think this criticism comes mainly from those who see all affairs the same way, whether from personal experience or character, or from a need to feel that way if their spouse has cheated in the past.

 

I think one problem with this board is we never really see the full picture of the affair, because generally speaking OW (feel they?) have to spend so much time defending their situation and get hauled around somewhat if they share too much, that we don't get to see and discuss the real differences between these married men (and women). I feel that if there was more discussion about the ins and outs of what is exactly going on between affair partners then there might be a way for the OP to pick apart the chances of 'success' for their own situation. A way for them to make decisions based on others stories, however those situations turned out.

 

However, this kind of analysis can only take you so far. Because in the end each situation is different, and there really is no predicting how things will work out. I think that whether a MM will or won't leave isn't just down to the MM. Affairs are situations involving three people, and it's the actions and character of each/all of those individuals which determine how it will all turn out. Yes, we can probably say broadly which situations are more likely to 'work out', but there are no hard and fast rules.

 

However, I think that the more sharing, the more stories we have (from ALL angles) the better. Personally I think that shared stories are AS useful as advice when it comes to the OW deciding what to do in her situation, though neither is an accurate predictor of future events... if only...

Edited March 9, 2008 by frannie

[malaclypse]

Do you also get irked by philosophers? Self-help books? Your parents? Anyone who offers any kind of advice? Or just the kind that you don't want to hear because the possible truth scares you? Just curious.

 

I love philosophy, I dislike self-help books and I have an exceptionally great relationship with both my parents. Not that it matters, because the main point here is that you accuse me of being afraid of the truth (nicely veiled in question-form).

 

So, no, truth is great, especially when delivered by a self-confessed former liar and cheat...

 

I think from a factual standpoint your posts can be very helpful to some people (and I don't think I ever suggested otherwise). I just made my (admittedly snide) remarks because of the undertone I seemed to detect... and I wasn't the only one noticing this.

 

I've been thinking about this 'extreme case' thing and I have a few questions for people to ponder:

 

Do you believe I am an extreme case? Or is it that I'm an honest case?

 

How many serial cheaters do you think will actually come out and admit that they are? How many do you think even realize it themselves?

 

How many cheaters do you think are honest about their past as to whether they've ever cheated before?

 

How many cheaters do you think want to see themselves as anything other than good and justified?

Yes, I think you were an extreme case. The serial cheaters I know in real life all admit to their behavior (at least to close friends - not necessarily their partners), and they know it's not good, but .. yes, everyone can find justifications for anything, given they try hard enough. Maybe the denial and dishonesty thing is more pronounced in America, with the stronger influence of traditional christian morals and all.

 

What irks me is this:

 

After 15 years of being vile, you change to a level of behavior that most people expect as baseline from any decent human...and yet feel entitled to bonus points? Prefential treatment?

 

I'm giving you something that, quite frankly, I believe is incredibly rare from a cheater: a well-examined perspective completely free of denial. Take it or ingore it as you please.

You're a shining star, unique and bright in absolute darkness.

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong malaclypse but I think what really irks you about my post is the suggestion that this chick you got involved with just might think the way I used to.

I think it irks anyone still clinging to a ray of hope from their 'committed partner', or those who are simply still bitter from their little encounter with one of my kind.

Just some food for thought

Obviously I hope... come on, who wouldn't?

 

But I am a realist enough not to base my actions on hope or beliefs or what-ifs, but on her (scientifically observable ) behavior. That's why I kept NC for 2 months, and re-established it after her breaking it.

 

I would be interested in how you think I could handle this better, given your much-vaunted insight into a cheaters mind.

 

That envelopes the gist of this thread... be a skeptic.

So we agree. Makes for a nice ending of this post.

[Lookingforward]

I would be interested in how you think I could handle this better, given your much-vaunted insight into a cheaters mind.

 

ah yes but from the perspective of a serial cheater who got royally Pixxed off when it happened to her.

 

Also one who I believe said she was in IC for anger issues among others.

[malaclypse]

ah yes but from the perspective of a serial cheater who got royally Pixxed off when it happened to her.

 

Yeah, of course. But any view on it is interesting, irrespective of my evaluation of it. Sometimes the most helpful answers are the ones which I totally disagree with....

[White Flower]

Jess – The amount of delusion on this board is astounding. It is no wonder that the MM have chosen the types of women who exist on these boards as affair material. Their capacity for self-deception is out of this world! I suppose a MM would never involve himself with a realist; that would take all of the fun out of the affair!! It is unbelievable that these women have so little respect for themselves that they would willingly sleep with someone they know is sleeping with someone else just to say they have someone in their lives. Meanwhile if they meet at SG and the SG cheats they will be ready to tear his head off. Why? They apparently don’t have a problem with the men they love sleeping with someone else, why would they ever expect monogamy?

 

I suppose it wouldn’t be so bad if the women were just using the men for money and didn’t care about their time or attention but these women actually love the men and they sacrifice their dignity for the man’s pleasure. What the 1800’s is going on here? Then you have women that really believe they rescued their man from a bad situation and they weren’t wrong for cheating because the woman was a dog anyway. At the same time they ignore the fact that the MM they love has horrible taste in women and jumped from one shady relationship into another with no break and no time to figure out what it is about him that leads him to drama-filled relationships. When he does figure it out he’ll leave the OW because she likely enabled his problem as opposed to providing solutions. That is why these OW/MM relationships generally do not last. Since the man is the one who has gotten to do the choosing he will eventually choose another OW over the first OW because he’s got it like that. Why women choose to get involved in destructive relationships like this is a mystery to me.

You're assuming way too much. Am I affair material? My H and I never thought so for over 20 years. Suddenly I'm affair material. Must've happened over night...

 

What is out of this world is your choice of interpretations on the issues we post. We pour our hearts out for anyone to chew up and spit out in search for growth and truth yet you still refuse to see it as it is. You need to put blanket phrases on everything such as 'affair material' or that we have little 'self-respect'.

 

You seem to think we either use MM for money or only love them as long as we sacrifice our dignity. Really, the only dignity I've ever experienced from a lover has been from my MM! Jumping from one shady relationship to another? Come on!

 

Are you working for Fox New Network? If you wave that flag long enough we might believe you deliver the news in a 'fair and balanced' manner!

[White Flower]

Malaclypse this is one of the sanest and most down-to-earth posts I've read in awhile. Don't know you or your story at all, but I'm impressed!

 

I think some preachers - I mean, posters - would do well to realize that the people posting here are NOT the same people as in their own IRL situation. Also that it's not a swift move to treat others as their emotional garbage pail. Most people don't (and shouldn't) put up with that.

I must agree with OB. Great post, Malaclypse. Always wondered about you, so I'll go check out your posts. Smart mind with good critical thinking skills. I also like the 'thingy' line. Makes you real.

[White Flower]

Well that is very sad owoman ,that no-one remembers the biological parents of the kids, those parents and those kids deserve the recognition, since I work with kids , I am sooo glad I don't work where you do- sounds like I would be very very busy.

 

It is also sad that you believe 2nd marriages are more successfull than first-they actually have a higher failure rate.

 

I have read some of your posts and I understand you're in a successfull post A arrangement-just curious as to why you would still consider yourself the OW.

 

TriMax

I just have to say that I don't believe those statistics at all. First of all, because of the stigma associated with affairs, people rarely admit to marrying an OP; therefore, do not submit truthful answers when filling out statistical questionaires. My MM said that if we ever did marry he certainly would wait a while and would never tell anyone I was his OW because of how society feels about it.

 

I also believe that in our puritanical culture (the U.S.) we don't want to admit to the world that we have such a high D rate so we try to thwart it by putting false stats out there. This could start a new thread and I don't mean to threadjack but since you bring it up I feel I must answer it here.

 

My dad married his OW, too, and they were happy until the day he died. She was right by his side.

[White Flower]

Originally Posted by OWoman

I still refer to myself (here) as the OW because we've been told repeatedly that we're still the OW until the ink of the divorce is dry, and sometimes even then "he'll go back" so until the ink is dry on the (former)OW's M to the (formerly M)M, she's still the OW in the eyes of most on LS.

And here I thought it was because you liked Os....

[White Flower]

I think one problem with this board is we never really see the full picture of the affair, because generally speaking OW (feel they?) have to spend so much time defending their situation and get hauled around somewhat if they share too much, that we don't get to see and discuss the real differences between these married men (and women). I feel that if there was more discussion about the ins and outs of what is exactly going on between affair partners then there might be a way for the OP to pick apart the chances of 'success' for their own situation. A way for them to make decisions based on others stories, however those situations turned out.

 

Very good post, frannie. The defending takes so much time and energy that we cannot get the information we are looking for and even if we do we might be too tired to filter through it because of energy loss.

[White Flower]

A Former Serial Cake-Eater for 15 Years

Hey Jess-Belle,

 

I think you might have avoided some friendly attacks here if only you would have written more of your own story into the whole opening instead of this little tidbit at the end. I suppose, if I may speak for most here, that your post appeared as a slightly judgmental attack rather that a warning coming from someone who has hurt others as a serial cheater.

 

Your warning is a valuable one; your delivery less human because you weren't in it. Now that I've read through the entire post thus far, I feel you are genuinely trying to help others. So, thanks, and good luck with your new found ability to feel. It might be painful at times, but life is so much more worth the living when you can feel the joy and happiness and passion that comes with that flood of feeling.

[st951]

Then you have women that really believe they rescued their man from a bad situation and they weren’t wrong for cheating because the woman was a dog anyway. At the same time they ignore the fact that the MM they love has horrible taste in women and jumped from one shady relationship into another with no break and no time to figure out what it is about him that leads him to drama-filled relationships. When he does figure it out he’ll leave the OW because she likely enabled his problem as opposed to providing solutions. That is why these OW/MM relationships generally do not last. Since the man is the one who has gotten to do the choosing he will eventually choose another OW over the first OW because he’s got it like that.

 

Sorry but I think this is absolutely spot-on brilliant.

 

Why women choose to get involved in destructive relationships like this is a mystery to me.

 

Because they find these losers irresistably attractive. Throughout human history, more women have reproduced than men, something like 80% to 40%. Another way of putting this is that more women are chasing after the same smaller group of men. Women look up, men look across and down, and the most attractive men have much more to choose from.

 

A man such as this is probably very sexually attractive and has no problems getting women. He has no incentive to change because there will always be another gullible, lonely, attractive woman to play. And as he gets older, he will still be able to attract younger women, while he will increasingly ignore the women his age.

 

This is why so many nice, attractive, successful women end up alone. It seems that the best ones are not willing to put up with this BS but they are not willing to take on the nicer ones who are maybe not so overtly sexy, either.

[Lookingforward]

It is unbelievable that these women have so little respect for themselves that they would willingly sleep with someone they know is sleeping with someone else just to say they have someone in their lives.

 

Which is why I still say I was not in an "affair" and have issues with Jess trying to push me into that pigeonhole.

 

There is no WAY I would EVER sleep with someone who was sleeping with someone else at the same time .....

 

Which is not to slam those OWs that do...but it's just not something I could do.

[Lookingforward]

And here I thought it was because you liked Os....

 

it's all about the Os <big grin>

[White Flower]

it's all about the Os <big grin>

Yeah, after she gets married to MM, or DM (for divorced man) she can still keep her handle, lol. It's all about the O...

[Jess-Belle]

I love philosophy, I dislike self-help books and I have an exceptionally great relationship with both my parents. Not that it matters, because the main point here is that you accuse me of being afraid of the truth (nicely veiled in question-form).

 

So, no, truth is great, especially when delivered by a self-confessed former liar and cheat...

 

I think from a factual standpoint your posts can be very helpful to some people (and I don't think I ever suggested otherwise). I just made my (admittedly snide) remarks because of the undertone I seemed to detect... and I wasn't the only one noticing this.

 

Not that it will matter much, but I'd like to point out that those who regarded my post positively and those who regarded in negatively also tended to be on opposite sides of the fence...

 

Yes, I think you were an extreme case. The serial cheaters I know in real life all admit to their behavior (at least to close friends - not necessarily their partners), and they know it's not good, but .. yes, everyone can find justifications for anything, given they try hard enough. Maybe the denial and dishonesty thing is more pronounced in America, with the stronger influence of traditional christian morals and all.

 

What irks me is this:

 

After 15 years of being vile, you change to a level of behavior that most people expect as baseline from any decent human...and yet feel entitled to bonus points? Prefential treatment?

 

Mmmm, no? Where are you getting this?

 

Obviously I hope... come on, who wouldn't?

 

But I am a realist enough not to base my actions on hope or beliefs or what-ifs, but on her (scientifically observable ) behavior. That's why I kept NC for 2 months, and re-established it after her breaking it.

 

I would be interested in how you think I could handle this better, given your much-vaunted insight into a cheaters mind.

 

TBH I haven't gone into your story in precise detail... I only know the general points... My only thought is this, with someone who is cheating, there can be a lot more to it than just the behavior you see on the outside. I think this is where it's easy to get hurt. You see one thing and come to one conclusion that you feel is logical, while the cheater can be thinking something entirely different.

 

This my point of the entire thread: be careful when dealing with cheaters!

[Jess-Belle]

Daer Jess-Belle:

 

I've read from your opening post to the end.

 

I've been searching for the words to describe the cake eater that I got addicted to but now you have managed to pull from the air one of the best summaries of what my affair with her was all about.

 

Thank you for your very keen observations and well put description.

 

So where ther hell were you when I needed you seven years ago?

 

Never mind, in those days, I would have resented you for the "mean stuff" you just said. What he hell do you know? Is what I would have said then.

 

Well, at least it helps now, while I'm reminding myself, every 10 minutes of each day, that I'm better off without her, and I frequently have to make a trip to the men's room to get control of myself so no one sees that I'm about to lose it.

 

FWIW: I understand that you're speaking in a general sense, that is to say, what is true, generally in most cases. There will always be some to complain because they are one of those rare exceptions to the general rule.

 

My case was NOT an exception to the rule. You're description was right on point.

 

So thanks!

 

I'm sorry you had to go through that Cagney. Just try to keep it mind it has nothing to do with you or your worth. Sometimes people are just screwed up, you happen to be in their path and wind up tossed around in their storm...

[Jess-Belle]

However, I think that the more sharing, the more stories we have (from ALL angles) the better. Personally I think that shared stories are AS useful as advice when it comes to the OW deciding what to do in her situation, though neither is an accurate predictor of future events... if only...

 

Exactly

[Jess-Belle]

Hey Jess-Belle,

 

I think you might have avoided some friendly attacks here if only you would have written more of your own story into the whole opening instead of this little tidbit at the end. I suppose, if I may speak for most here, that your post appeared as a slightly judgmental attack rather that a warning coming from someone who has hurt others as a serial cheater.

 

Your warning is a valuable one; your delivery less human because you weren't in it. Now that I've read through the entire post thus far, I feel you are genuinely trying to help others. So, thanks, and good luck with your new found ability to feel. It might be painful at times, but life is so much more worth the living when you can feel the joy and happiness and passion that comes with that flood of feeling.

 

Ah, yes, I guess my actual story is scattered here and there. Perhaps it would have helped to incorporate it into the beginning but then the post would be a novel to rival Stephen King!

 

I am glad you are able to see its true meaning however despite its faults. Thank you

[Jess-Belle]

A commentary:

 

I am sure there are many of you who might be curious or intrigued as to where I am now after living so many years cheating over and over again. I suppose you're rightly skeptical that I won't do it again... Maybe you have the impression that I'm suggesting that I don't even think about it anymore, that I'm not tempted anymore. Guess what: I actually am! I've thought about it more than once. But I just see it for what it is now.

 

After all these years I have learned to finally see what cheating was to me: an addiction, an addiction to the ego boost, the high of meeting someone new, someone to get to know all over again. It's like a mini-rebirth... you have no history, no problems, no nothing. This AP has so much energy, so much affection to give you. They hold no resentments, no anger... all those problems in your current relationship, the ones you're sick to death of trying to make your SO/spouse understand... those are erased.

And another important aspect... it was my way to escape the pain of a relationship... my fears of getting close to someone and all that it entails. When you fall in love, you become so vulnerable... the things your SO does develops a capacity to touch you at a deeper level. Which is nice when it's all happiness and romance, but when you have problems... well, it would scare me to death. It would feel like I'm drowning, or suffocating, and my instinct was to kill that feeling off asap.

 

Yes I committed to a relationship, but I'm still that person who's afraid. And when things go wrong, those familiar fleeting thoughts go through my mind...

 

At the moment I'm probably living through one of the hardest things a relationship can go through. My bf and I betrayed each other to pieces... no one is in any state to be able to give 1000% to helping the other... which is why we're in therapy... yes things are improving but it is incredibly difficult sometimes.

I for one know that if I were anything like I used to be, I'd have found myself a new 'painkiller' like yesterday.

Like the liquor bottles start calling to an alcoholic when the alcoholic feels his/her world crashing down... it's very similar to that.

 

Sometimes, my bf is irritable... he is too tired from his 2 jobs to make love... I feel unloved, neglected... sometimes we have an argument about something that has always been an issue, to the point where I find myself thinking omfg, he's never going to get it, this is all fricking doomed... I've tried so many times to explain this and he just doesn't get it... I'm too tired to try anymore, I am tired, I give up... these are all things I could tell to an AP who will give me everything I want and make it all better... this is the gateway opening to an A...

 

Before it was at that point that I'd tell myself, I deserve to be happy. If this schmuck can't appreciate me, I'll find myself someone who does.

 

And somewhere out there, there was someone thinking to themselves how if this seemingly wonderful, attractive person's SO/spouse is treating them crappily and neglecting them, why, they couldn't blame them for going out and getting it somewhere else! In fact, they would happily volunteer... (Sound familiar anyone? )

 

And eventually, at some point, we'd come together to form the perfect dysfunctional whole.

 

But I now just see everything unveiled. I'm beyond the point of saying 'Gee, I wasn't looking for an affair, it just happened...' because those feelings aren't subconscious anymore. They used to be... those needs to feel loved and validated were crying out silently, and then all it takes is meeting the right person and *poof*... the affair materializes.

I don't need a specific person to make those feelings surface anymore. I am very in touch with them. When I'm the throes of a panic attack, my mind goes straight to the point: I want to feel loved and validated, I want to escape this pain, with someone, anyone.

That's how I know it isn't about the AP. It isn't because they're particularly nice, particularly attractive, particularly generous, particularly anything... they just fill the void. It's really just all about me.

 

Everything gets easier with each passing day... but even in my darkest hours, I have resisted numbing myself with an A. This is why I feel confident.

 

And of course... I love him. And I've learned not to run away from love when it gets scary or hard.

 

Well that's it for now, time to go to bed, just wanted to give you all more insight into my particular thought processes... if anyone finds it helpful, I am glad

 

Any clarifications requested, don't hesitate to ask