Harry vs Sally

[Cobra_X30]

That seems backwards. It's easier to be friends with a girl to whom you're not attracted. I used to have a female friend who I wasn't at all attracted to.

 

I also have a female friend who I've known, and stayed in touch with, for over 10 years now. I do find her attractive but she's my best friend's high school gf.

 

A trusted female perspective, for starters.

 

Well, Tan... what can I say. I'm calling Bullcrap on this one

 

I'm a straight, single/divorced guy and I'll take the opposing viewpoint, with several potential caveats.

 

I have multiple female friends who I would never pursue romantically or try to have sex with them because I'm not interested in them in that way. They're permanently "friendzoned" if you will, for various reasons. Some are married, some are much older, some I'm not physically attracted to at all, others just have various dealbreakers. But I still like them enough to call them friends.

 

For the same reason... I'm calling BS on this too.

 

Point... These friends provide you with something. Fact is that under the right circumstances... you would persue them, unless there is something about them you consider fundamentally unattractive. At which point I humbly submit to you that they are Aquantances... not friends!

[Mustang Sally]

I'm calling Bullcrap on this one

 

........

 

For the same reason... I'm calling BS on this too.

Thanks, babe!

 

You said it better than I could....

[Phateless]

I go back and forth on this issue. I think that the notion of there being attraction but it is repressed is dead-on. I think the attraction is partially what makes a good friendship. I dunno... I used to think it was possible to be just friends, but I'm gradually starting to change my mind.

 

It's true, under the right circumstances I might pursue them, but I don't like them enough to cross the boundary. I also had a friend show signs that she was falling for me not too long ago, and now that she's found someone else that she's interested in, she completely dropped off the face of the earth.

 

I think men and women CAN be friends, as long as there are boundaries. Attraction will be there, but that doesn't mean we have to act on it.

[Cobra_X30]

Thanks, babe!

 

You said it better than I could....

 

I have to!

 

If the other guys dont back me up... I look like a dirty, dirty, dog!

[tanbark813]

Well, Tan... what can I say. I'm calling Bullcrap on this one

 

Point... These friends provide you with something. Fact is that under the right circumstances... you would persue them, unless there is something about them you consider fundamentally unattractive. At which point I humbly submit to you that they are Aquantances... not friends!

 

The first I would never pursue. The second I would were she not my best friend's ex.

 

Call it BS all you want. That doesn't make it false.

[Cobra_X30]

The first I would never pursue. The second I would were she not my best friend's ex.

 

Call it BS all you want. That doesn't make it false.

 

Yeah... I'm still correct. So fine... one looks like Shrek and the other your just waiting on. Well if you best friend ever vanished... I'm sure you would be all over that.... right? I mean provided you didnt have anything better at the time.

[CraigAllen]

You mean to tell me that if you were friends, say, with someone you work with, that you could talk with this woman on a daily basis, maybe spend time outside of work with her, on occasion, and NOT be thinking about how HOT you think she is?

Please.

I bet I know better.

 

What does me thinking she is hot have to do with it? It's what you do with those thoughts (or what you don't do with them) that is the key. I have hot female friends that I don't have sex with and know that I never will and I'm OK with that as are they. I don't see the problem here.

[CraigAllen]

Ok.

I have this guy friend that I work with (loosely - he's in a distant department from mine) that I talk to to get the male perspective.

 

For example, I asked him the very question of this thread, earlier this morning. But I also think he's kinda cute, and so, I guess, value his opinion on topics such as this a bit more. Not that I would want any sort of relationship with him (even if I weren't married), but I'm saying that I prefer to have contact with people that I find appealing to me in certain (many?) ways. That's all. All of my men friends have been reasonably appealing to me - not necessarily knock-down, drag-out gorgeous, but appealing enough. In physical ways as well as intellectual, emotional, etc...

 

For someone that doesn't think men and women can't be friends. You sure have a lot of male friends. What do you have to say for yourself?

[tanbark813]

Yeah... I'm still correct. So fine... one looks like Shrek and the other your just waiting on. Well if you best friend ever vanished... I'm sure you would be all over that.... right? I mean provided you didnt have anything better at the time.

 

Correct on the first one. As for the second, I've known my best friend literally since we were 5 years old so I doubt I'll ever not be in touch with him. But even assuming he was out of the picture for the sake of argument, no, because I know she's not attracted to me. As such, they're both just friends.

[CraigAllen]

Point... These friends provide you with something. Fact is that under the right circumstances... you would persue them, unless there is something about them you consider fundamentally unattractive. At which point I humbly submit to you that they are Aquantances... not friends!

 

Are you saying that you're male friends don't provide you with something? In a lot of cases, I don't see the difference.

[alterego1234]

Point... These friends provide you with something. Fact is that under the right circumstances... you would persue them, unless there is something about them you consider fundamentally unattractive. At which point I humbly submit to you that they are Aquantances... not friends!

 

I guess I partly agree with you and partly disagree with you.

 

In thinking through the examples of various female platonic friends of mine, there are two categories: women who I am not interested in romantically because of something that only they could change, and women who I am not interested in because of something that only I could change. Generally speaking, the women I'm thinking of I really don't expect them to change the one or two or three things that are dealbreakers for me dating them.

 

I'll run through several examples:

 

1. Female friends who are married. If their husbands died, then two of them would become interesting to me. If they divorced their husbands, then I would possibly have an issue with that (depending on the reason) and wouldn't date them for that reason.

 

2. Friends who are physically unattractive to me. For them to be dating material they'd have to choose different parents and/or have major cosmetic and bariatric surgery, which would in turn become an issue. That, or I'd have to change what my perception is of good-looking, which would require brain surgery or brainwashing on me.

 

3. Friends who have one or two different core values than me. For example, I might have friends who don't value education, or are pro-life, or are pinko commie liberals, or whatever. If they changed those values, then I guess I'd consider them. I just don't expect them to.

 

The part that I disagree with is that I have to be attracted to someone for them to be my friends. I guess it depends on what you mean by attracted, because, for example, one friend I can think of in particular is just physically unattractive to me and she happens to also be happily married. But I like her and we enjoy talking to each other. So she is attractive in the conversational or intellectual sense but not the physical sense.

 

Maybe another way for me to say it is that I have lower standards for my friends than I do for women I would date. So as I meet a new person, if they don't meet the higher dating standards, they might meet the lower friend standards. Most of what I try to judge on, though, is pretty intrinsic to the person and not easily changed - character, personality traits, values, fundamental physical appearance. I *very* rarely find my attraction level to a person changing over time after I find out what I want to know about them.

 

ae

[Mustang Sally]

For someone that doesn't think men and women can't be friends. You sure have a lot of male friends. What do you have to say for yourself?

Let me clarify.

 

I think you can have friendships, if the (sexual) tension (for lack of a better group of words) is repressed, as Story said earlier.

 

I don't make significant friendships with members of the opposite gender that I don't find attractive in some way (again - physical, intellectual, and/or emotional).

 

Maybe I'm the weird one here?

Could be.

<shrugging>

[tanbark813]

The part that I disagree with is that I have to be attracted to someone for them to be my friends.

 

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense to me either. I'm sure as hell not attracted to any of my guy friends.

 

[alterego1234]

You mean to tell me that if you were friends, say, with someone you work with, that you could talk with this woman on a daily basis, maybe spend time outside of work with her, on occasion, and NOT be thinking about how HOT you think she is?

Please.

I bet I know better.

 

I have a reasonably hot coworker, and she's really nice, and I'd say we've developed a "slightly more than co-worker" friendship because I've asked her opinion on dating questions a few times. But she's also happily married and probably 10 years older than me, so that makes a romantic relationship a non-starter in my view.

 

As a guy, I can think both something like "Well, there goes something nice to look at down the hall that would be nicer to look at in the raw" and "Oh, there's my friend Jane" at almost the same time. What I might want to do with her and what I will do with her are two different things, because there are circumstances and facts and both of us have self-restraint. Well, I don't know about her, but I do. Probably the vulgar/sexual/more primal thoughts are there first, but the other thoughts are a fraction of a second afterward and so the thoughts really don't go very far.

 

ae

[Cobra_X30]

As a guy, I can think both something like "Well, there goes something nice to look at down the hall that would be nicer to look at in the raw" and "Oh, there's my friend Jane" at almost the same time. What I might want to do with her and what I will do with her are two different things, because there are circumstances and facts and both of us have self-restraint. Well, I don't know about her, but I do. Probably the vulgar/sexual/more primal thoughts are there first, but the other thoughts are a fraction of a second afterward and so the thoughts really don't go very far.

 

Thank you!

 

You eloquently summed up my whole point.

 

In regards to friends who are beastly unattractive. Well, I seriously doubt that is the case for Mustang's friend. You know she only hangs with the most attractive people! Thats just how she rolls!

[Mustang Sally]

In regards to friends who are beastly unattractive. Well, I seriously doubt that is the case for Mustang's friend. You know she only hangs with the most attractive people! Thats just how she rolls!

Do you mean my female friends? Or my male friends?

 

 

 

 

 

.....Ride, Sally, ride.......

 

[Blue Eyed Brain]

I think women can be "just friends" with a guy but guys will always allow sex (repressed or not) to come up in the mix. So, Harry is right.

[tanbark813]

I think women can be "just friends" with a guy but guys will always allow sex (repressed or not) to come up in the mix.

 

Not if the chick is ugly.

[Mustang Sally]

Tan.

I respectfully disagree that you are disproving my null hypothesis.

 

With your Shrek-friend, you say you don't find her attractive.

How do you know she doesn't find YOU attractive? Maybe SHE is the one who is repressing the tension?

 

With your other friend - the Friend's GF - YOU are the one repressing because you said you ARE attracted to her, but she's OFF LIMITS.

 

Therefore, the TENSION exists in both scenarios (well, one for sure, and one possibly). So, not friendships without the sex-thing.

 

So there!

Pffffft!

[Mustang Sally]

As a guy, I can think both something like "Well, there goes something nice to look at down the hall that would be nicer to look at in the raw" and "Oh, there's my friend Jane" at almost the same time. What I might want to do with her and what I will do with her are two different things, because there are circumstances and facts and both of us have self-restraint. Well, I don't know about her, but I do. Probably the vulgar/sexual/more primal thoughts are there first, but the other thoughts are a fraction of a second afterward and so the thoughts really don't go very far.

 

ae

'Zactly my point, hon.

 

You have the base, carnal SEX thought about Jane, before you override it with the socially acceptable friendship thought.

 

THAT's my point.

 

SOMEONE is always having to repress the sex-thought when men and women are "friends" (NOT acquaintances).

 

Sometimes it's the guy, sometimes it's the gal.

(We are just better at keeping it concealed, I think, than the guys are....)

[Mustang Sally]

Are you saying that you're male friends don't provide you with something? In a lot of cases, I don't see the difference.

Ok.

Give me a break.

 

You expect me to believe that the ego-stroke you get from friendship with one of your male friends is comparable to the ego-stroke you get from a friendship with a hot woman-friend?

 

Please.

 

Do I really look that naive?

[Blue Eyed Brain]

Not if the chick is ugly.

 

With enough beer, you'll want to pork them too!

[monkey00]

I don't think it's really possible, all or most of my female friends just wind up acquaintances. The girls whom I thought were friends in the past only stuck around to try to get into my pants, but I only saw them as a non-sexual friend.

 

Once they wind up in a relationship with someone or realize that I don't see them more than friend, we'd pretty much lose touch. But it's very common and it happens to everyone.

[alterego1234]

'Zactly my point, hon.

 

You have the base, carnal SEX thought about Jane, before you override it with the socially acceptable friendship thought.

 

THAT's my point.

 

SOMEONE is always having to repress the sex-thought when men and women are "friends" (NOT acquaintances).

 

Sometimes it's the guy, sometimes it's the gal.

(We are just better at keeping it concealed, I think, than the guys are....)

 

I think this conversation has wandered a little. You were responding to my response about a hot coworker. I have another female friend who I don't have to repress any such thoughts because I don't have any for her, because she's not physically attractive to me. She has an attractive personality, and character, and intellect, but not body or face.

 

Here's what you originally wrote:

 

Ok.

So I have this middle-aged friend (separated, getting a divorce, 3 teenage sons) at work who has been "friends" with this guy for over a year. She goes out to eat with this guy once a week and they "talk." She is convinced he thinks of her as nothing but a sister...but I say he has to have some sort of "feeling" for her to have invested this amount of time with her....

 

He may just think of her as a sister. The unattractive woman friend I mentioned earlier is someone who I could easily see doing the very same thing as the guy you're talking about.

 

He may have positive, friendly, and even affectionate feelings for her but not sexual or romantic feelings or attraction to her. Particularly, to be blunt, if shes unattractive or plain or frumpy.

 

What do you think?

 

Can men and women really JUST be friends?

 

Cause, I don't really think so.....

 

I misunderstood your "JUST be friends" question:

 

1. Do I think a man and woman can be just friends if there is no physical attraction on either party's part? Yes, easily.

 

2. Do I think a man and woman can remain friends for an indefinite period of time even if there is physical attraction / chemistry between the two of them? Sure, with a modicum of self restraint.

 

3. Do I think a man and woman can completely shut off a physical or sexual attraction between the two of them? Nope.

 

I thought you were asking question 2, but it sounds like you were asking question 3 and ignoring my and tanbark's exception in question 1.

 

ae

[popey]

yes. men and women can really just be friends.