Male Dominated Industry

[Star Gazer]

My friend's little sister just graduated law school and has been interviewing a lot lately. She only has internship experience and she's already getting job offers in the 150K range. Unless they're giving male grads a 200K offer, then I say bullshyt to the glass ceiling.

 

Where did you see that I said EVERY single employer is this way?

 

Of all places, a LAW FIRM knows not to ILLEGALLY DISCRIMINATE against ATTORNEYS who just graduated from law school where they took exams involving FEHA. Sheesh.

 

(And as a side note, top firms are now starting at $165K.)

[Star Gazer]

Well that's unheard of where I live. Even 100K for a new attorney is unheard of where I live.

 

Depends on the city and the area of law, but $100K is not unheard of. $150-165 is quite high for a first year, but the Top 10 firms in NYC and LA do start in that range.

[tanbark813]

Where did you see that I said EVERY single employer is this way?

 

I never said you did. It was just a singular example. My point was that women aren't always held back. There are windows scattered throughout the glass ceiling. And in some careers women are earning more than men.

[IpAncA]

My point was that women aren't always held back. There are windows scattered throughout the glass ceiling. And in some careers women are earning more than men.

 

Yeah I agree.

 

Without giving away my work area away, dollar amounts shift. It comes down to experience, type of degree, how well you do your job, and reputation. If someone loves your work and you get the job done they don't care if you a male or female. Is that always the case? No but generally it is.

 

Now I will say this if you have a bad rep your screwed and might as well try a different field. I'm not making that up either. So part of it is who you know but if what you know doesn't work, your done as well.

[Cobra_X30]

Even two managerial employees at one of these companies, right out of the SAME grad school the SAME year, without even having an opportunity to prove themselves at the company yet - one male, one female, with EQUAL job titles AND responsibilities - have a pay difference of 18%.

 

This isn't a figment of our imagination.

 

Your argument seems to be that because there are women in the industry as a whole who do not perform to the best of their ability, the other women who are top performers and are equals to men nevertheless deserve to suffer a disparate impact. Are you seriously saying that? If so, would you say the same as to men? There are obviously men who are poor performers as well.

 

I know exactly how it works. One of my duties is to hire and fire reps! I'm going to tell you right now that when I hire someone the money that I offer is based on an average... then I adjust for personal accomplishments! Because in my industry the average production is lower for women... even though the one I am interviewing may be an absolute rockstar... I'm still going to make that initial offer based on a lower average. This is why there is a gap in companies between actual employee value and percieved employee value!

 

So I understand when you say equal qualifications and unequal pay. I'm just telling you why that may be!

 

Shoot, You should listen to our sales and marketing director talk about this topic! He is the glass ceiling in my company!

[Heavenly55]

Why should you change how you dress to fit in with "the guys"...give me a break. Yes, I don't think shirts with your boobs hanging out or short skirts is appopriate but I don't think you need to be wearing tailored suits that cost 300 plus each day to be a man lol. I work in a very corporate env't in finance and I rarely wear heels and wear what I feel comfortable. My hair is always done usually and I always wear makeup and if that offends anyone oh well. I also do not watch or care about sports, along with 95% of the women I know and when guys are gonna stand there talking about sports no I'm not going to join in. For me though, I am in a different career path and will eventually be in a mostly all female dominated profession. This job is just temporary so I don't really care about the glass ceiling. I will say though that alot of the guys talk in a condescending manner and I can be condescending right back. My boss, as nice as he is, is totally sexist and told me whem something was said about me to "not get emotional" if I decided to confront the person. Oh I know bc I'm a girl and all:rolleyes:. I am defentially not one of the guys and nor do I care to be. My boss has started talking about his daughters straightening iron to me and how she shops all the time bc I guess he thinks that's all he can talk to me about. Honestly, I am a very girly girl but I'm not the valley girl, giggling every 2 seconds type. I hate that with a passion. I don't plan on changeing any time soon either.

[IpAncA]

Who said anything about looking like a dude? Like I'm really going to walk around in a man suit.

[Can'tGiveUp]

I am surprised that you don't get any support from the younger guys? It seems to me that they are less gender biased.

 

I also work in a male dominated industry. The company I am with is still 20-30 years behind the others in the industry in respect to women's roles in business. I expect it will be at least 2 turnovers of top management before there will be any significant changes.

 

There is a glass ceiling, and I am well aware now, how far I can go within this organization. For now, I am okay with this. Within the different departments there are some where I highly doubt that a female will ever be employed in my lifetime.

 

I don't have the lack of respect part that you seem to be dealing with. I get along well with the guys and prefer the "no bullsh*t" way of dealing with them. My biggest problems seem to be with the younger female staff.

 

Though with all fairness, there are some upper management who do not have the same viewpoint (dependent upon which dept. you are talking about), but their hands are tied by the CEO and Board members.

 

The reality is that you make a decision regarding staying or seeking other employment. Then you learn to function within the environment.

[Trialbyfire]

The reality is that you make a decision regarding staying or seeking other employment. Then you learn to function within the environment.

Reality versus theory.

[uniqueone]

Depends on the city and the area of law, but $100K is not unheard of. $150-165 is quite high for a first year, but the Top 10 firms in NYC and LA do start in that range.

 

 

I figured it must be on the coasts. You could buy a house here for that salary.

[uniqueone]

I also do not watch or care about sports, along with 95% of the women I know and when guys are gonna stand there talking about sports no I'm not going to join in.

 

 

SAME HERE!!!

[IpAncA]

I am surprised that you don't get any support from the younger guys? It seems to me that they are less gender biased.

 

The younger one's are worse by far. Reason is you're competiting with them because jobs are VERY LIMITED unless you go further in your education and trust me they don't want a women pulling ahead. Is that the case with them all? No because I'm friends with some who are far from it.

 

Ever play who knows more? Good times...

 

I don't have the lack of respect part that you seem to be dealing with. I get along well with the guys and prefer the "no bullsh*t" way of dealing with them. My biggest problems seem to be with the younger female staff.

 

Why you having a problem with the younger female staff?

[suzy61]

I'm a civil engineer. Been working on a building site for 2 years by now. I'm also only 25. I'm giving orders and checking the work of men who are twice my age, and more, and who have basically grown up on sites. Needless to say you learn by experience in this environment. I did spend 4 years in college, but this is a whole other world. I'm about 5"6, dark hair and eyes, and have been called "cute", in the small girl kind of sense. So you can imagine I stick out a bit in a word of steel fixers, brick layers, plumbers and electricians. Among others. I'm working in Ireland also, where the construction industry is flooded with men from eastern europe ( Hungary, lithuania, latvia, poland, estonia, romania). These are all contries where women are NEVER seen on building sites, and many of these men are not happy with dealing with a woman as their boss. Also, many of them are here without wives,girlfriends etc, so any sort of woman is fair game.

While much of this probably won't be any good to anyone, I'll share anyway!As far as I'm concerned, everyone's equal in my world. I don't talk down to people, I don't adopt the mean bitch attitude, I don't go for the ladette attitude...if I need a hand lifting sthg, etc, I'll ask for it. (Actually I frequently don't even have to ask, the lads just take over and move/lift whatever I need when they see me trying....). It's old-fashioned but I literally treat people with respect and I get it in return. I think there have been about 2 exceptions to that so far. People treat you the way you treat them. I'm well aware that sometimes you just have no choice whatsoever, but to be honest, I work on the basis that a simple "please" and "thank you" speaks volumes. I've had a better reaction from lads by saying those 3 words, than they would give to me screaming and bossing them around. I know I sound vomit-inducing, but I honestly enjoy going to work every day just for the fun I have with the lads I'm working with. And I'm talking about the engineers and professional people as well as the builders etc. It's nice to know there are still decent people out there!!

There are 3 other girls working with me, and I suppose I'm lucky in the sense that none of are the jealous, attention-seeking type, and we all get on fairly well together. I love having them there, for girl talk occasionally, but you don't really get much of a chance to be honest.

just thought I'd share!!

[Green]

I once worked on a high stress project that involved over 100k and had the President of the company. it was me and a few other girls working on it and let me tell you it was a pain in my arse to work in an all femaile dominated environment, the girls couldnt handle the stress and a few even broke down in tears when Id point out what they were doing wrong. But in the end the project was an even greater sucess then I could have ever hoped for so, but still I hate working with a bunch of women

[uniqueone]

I once worked on a high stress project that involved over 100k and had the President of the company. it was me and a few other girls working on it and let me tell you it was a pain in my arse to work in an all femaile dominated environment, the girls couldnt handle the stress and a few even broke down in tears when Id point out what they were doing wrong. But in the end the project was an even greater sucess then I could have ever hoped for so, but still I hate working with a bunch of women

 

 

But I betcha if Hill wins the election she'll be busy doing actual WORK in the Oval office instead of hitting on interns......

[Green]

But I betcha if Hill wins the election she'll be busy doing actual WORK in the Oval office instead of hitting on interns......

 

Hey isn't that what interns are made for?

[Timberlane]

It more or less sucks when either sex gets a foothold on an office, because they both can exhibit some sexist attitudes. I have worked in both kinds of offices. Of course by being a man, the all female marketing department was my Waterloo. And let me tell you, I was happy to be there! I even did light IT stuff for them since their mean male IT department wouldn't work on the Macs. But the place was dominated by bitter, old-looking but actually young divorced women.

 

My boss would cry on the phone with her ex and then have the audacity to look at me for taking a five minute break and ask what I was doing not working! They hired a distrustful new girl from out of state that was my age. We had lunch a few times. One day she said, "You look kind of cute when you're sleepy." Hmmm. One day at lunch I said I thought she was cool. Next day it's treated like a sexual harassment comment. Wow. I never spoke a word after that unpleasantness. At the time, my home life was hell, too.

 

There were two print sales reps that visited our office, one an attractive middle aged woman and the other an attractive guy. Guess which one got our business? You guessed it, the guy. The rotund woman awarding contracts ate up the guy's flattering banter. I liked both of them and talked to the woman once. She got the vibe that her presence was not appreciated and she felt it was due to her appearance. All I could do was shrug my shoulders, as that stupidity was alien to me at the time.

 

A very dear female friend of mine used to work at a civil engineering firm in Albuquerque. She told horror stories of clients actually demanding that no female engineers be sent to the job. These were entrenched, male dominated city officials. They actually outlined these requirements in no uncertain terms. Talk about stupidity. Little male egos couldn't handle a woman with a bigger college degree.

[uniqueone]

I just thought of an example from the male dominated industry I'm in.....

 

There was a meeting about some technical changes that were going to be made to our system. We had technical people in the meeting (including me) and we had some employees in the meeting who were not technical but would be using the new system to do their daily work (such as accounting and administrative). The non-technical people were all women.

 

Of the technical people in the meeting, I was the only woman.

 

After discussing what the new system needed to include, the head of the meeting dismissed the non-technical people. We were then able to talk in "tech-talk".

 

I mentioned to one of the tech guys how the first part of the meeting seemed to keep going in circles not getting anywhere. He told me that it was due to the fact that it was hard for us to really discuss things technically while the "girls" were in the room.

 

I kind of laughed to myself at that comment but I have to admit, it made me feel good.

 

I don't know if that's good or bad that it made me feel good. I mean, I was glad I wasn't in the category of one of the "girls" because I know the implication that it had. On the other hand, I AM a girl, so I probably should have resented that comment.

 

What was really weird was that it made me feel like a fly on the wall to what gets said between men (about women) when women aren't around. It's like he talked to me like I was a guy...not realizing that I wasn't. It was kinda cool.

[tanbark813]

I just thought of an example from the male dominated industry I'm in.....

 

There was a meeting about some technical changes that were going to be made to our system. We had technical people in the meeting (including me) and we had some employees in the meeting who were not technical but would be using the new system to do their daily work (such as accounting and administrative). The non-technical people were all women.

 

Of the technical people in the meeting, I was the only woman.

 

After discussing what the new system needed to include, the head of the meeting dismissed the non-technical people. We were then able to talk in "tech-talk".

 

I mentioned to one of the tech guys how the first part of the meeting seemed to keep going in circles not getting anywhere. He told me that it was due to the fact that it was hard for us to really discuss things technically while the "girls" were in the room.

 

I kind of laughed to myself at that comment but I have to admit, it made me feel good.

 

I don't know if that's good or bad that it made me feel good. I mean, I was glad I wasn't in the category of one of the "girls" because I know the implication that it had. On the other hand, I AM a girl, so I probably should have resented that comment.

 

What was really weird was that it made me feel like a fly on the wall to what gets said between men (about women) when women aren't around. It's like he talked to me like I was a guy...not realizing that I wasn't. It was kinda cool.

 

He used the term "girls" because they were all girls. Had they been mixed it probably would have been some other term. He was just grouping the non-technical people. And being a programmer myself, I know that it can be to your disadvantage to try to have a meeting about something technical with non-technical people around.

 

This is just another example of someone seeing something that isn't there.

[uniqueone]

He used the term "girls" because they were all girls. Had they been mixed it probably would have been some other term. He was just grouping the non-technical people. And being a programmer myself, I know that it can be to your disadvantage to try to have a meeting about something technical with non-technical people around.

 

This is just another example of someone seeing something that isn't there.

 

I don't think you caught what I was saying.

 

And I'm a technical person so I know myself about talking tech when non technical people are present so I know what he's talking about myself--it's not that he was explaining it to me.

 

My point was that he saw me as one of the guys....which was cool.

[Timberlane]

 

My point was that he saw me as one of the guys....which was cool.

 

Right, that's what I got from the story. In his mind, you get it and so are one of them.

 

Ever see that old cult black and white film "Freaks?"

 

One of us! One of us! one of us!

[uniqueone]

Right, that's what I got from the story. In his mind, you get it and so are one of them.

 

Ever see that old cult black and white film "Freaks?"

 

One of us! One of us! one of us!

 

Nope, never saw that one.