Male Dominated Industry

[Trialbyfire]

IpAnca, if you believe you're equal, they will treat you as such. I'm a little under 5'3" and petite in build, like you. You've seen my pic, so you know I don't look like a hardened criminal. If I can pull it off, so can you.

 

Speak up assertively. If you have a question, never be afraid to ask it for fear of looking stupid, especially at meetings. If you ask intelligent questions, you will find that after awhile, people will look to you to be their spokesperson.

[IpAncA]

yeah, change the attire and see if that helps.

 

Yep. I couldn't agree more.

 

IpAnca, if you believe you're equal, they will treat you as such. I'm a little under 5'3" and petite in build, like you. You've seen my pic, so you know I don't look like a hardened criminal. If I can pull it off, so can you.

 

Speak up assertively. If you have a question, never be afraid to ask it for fear of looking stupid, especially at meetings. If you ask intelligent questions, you will find that after awhile, people will look to you to be their spokesperson.

 

See it's like I know all this stuff and I'm really smart but sometimes I feel like it's not enough. I'm not a deep deep thinker so I feel stupid because of it and feel like I'm the only one. I try my hardest to deep thinker but I just can't.. I do extra work on the outside just so maybe I can deep think something but I can't sit around and ponder the history befind the word "why it is" or whatever...just using that as an example. I like things simple and if I ask a question I would expect someone to give it to me instead of me having to infer it or wait an hour to find out.

 

I'm to the point of saying "just give me your damn answer...I don't need a song and a dance too."

[Trialbyfire]

See it's like I know all this stuff and I'm really smart but sometimes I feel like it's not enough. I'm not a deep deep thinker so I feel stupid because of it and feel like I'm the only one. I try my hardest to deep thinker but I just can't.. I do extra work on the outside just so maybe I can deep think something but I can't sit around and ponder the history befind the word "why it is" or whatever...just using that as an example. I like things simple and if I ask a question I would expect someone to give it to me instead of me having to infer it or wait an hour to find out.

 

I'm to the point of saying "just give me your damn answer...I don't need a song and a dance too."

You need to listen to that song and dance. Not as much as the words that are said but what they infer. It's what will give you an understanding of the big picture and some insight into your fellow worker, management, etc. I'm dead serious about this.

 

To effectively work your environment, you have to understand all the components to it and what drives everything, not just what's in your area of expertise or even your department. Everything.

 

Once you have a grasp of that, your input will be sought out more and more. You will be able to step it up a notch.

 

Network. I can't emphasize that more. When you network, you get backing and more knowledge from others.

[IpAncA]

You need to listen to that song and dance. Not as much as the words that are said but what they infer. It's what will give you an understanding of the big picture and some insight into your fellow worker, management, etc. I'm dead serious about this.

 

To effectively work your environment, you have to understand all the components to it and what drives everything, not just what's in your area of expertise or even your department. Everything.

 

Once you have a grasp of that, your input will be sought out more and more. You will be able to step it up a notch.

 

Yeah I hear what your saying. It gets so much harder when you get deeper into it. It truly does and I feel like I should know everything and I just don't. I'm still fairly new at this so I'm not like an expert. Maybe I'm just trying to hard...I don't know but these past 2 weeks have sucked.

 

Network. I can't emphasize that more. When you network, you get backing and more knowledge from others.

 

Yes I'm networking. There's conferences I can go to and there is also some other people I'm working with outside of this all so I do hope that helps.

[Trialbyfire]

Yeah I hear what your saying. It gets so much harder when you get deeper into it. It truly does and I feel like I should know everything and I just don't. I'm still fairly new at this so I'm not like an expert. Maybe I'm just trying to hard...I don't know but these past 2 weeks have sucked.

For sure, it's hard. You're getting yourself into uncharted territories. Sometimes you will feel like your head is going to explode but after awhile, the light goes on and wow, a plan falls together.

 

Ease up and let yourself get acclimitized. Being stressed and tense isn't the easiest way to learn. Enjoy getting to know the people around you.

 

Yes I'm networking. There's conferences I can go to and there is also some other people I'm working with outside of this all so I do hope that helps.

That's great. Sounds like you're making the right moves. Don't forget to network internally. This will be more important than external networks in the near future.

 

Btw, suits. Classic colours and cuts, very tailored to your body, make sure you have them altered to be a perfect fit. Heels no higher than 3". One of my favourite things to wear are monotones. Cream coloured skirt suit, with everything else cream. Bare legs, close-toed pumps. Same goes for black, navy blue, gray, etc., although I would mix colours too.

[tanbark813]

It took me at least a year at my current job before my boss gave any kind of validity to my opinions. Not only am I currently the youngest developer at my company but I've also always been younger than my clients. There's always been an initial proving oneself period with a new client. The point being that I don't think the OP is experiencing anything reserved for women in the workplace.

 

As for NJ's recommendation of verbiage, that's also wrong; well, partially. We have one developer who has a very dominant personality. He talks over people, you never get the impression that he's actually listening to you, and he uses a lot of "I" and "me". Personally, I make it a point to use "we" and "us" because I want to come across as a team player and not a glory hog. Not all males use "I" and "me" primarily.

 

Everyone needs to prove themselves at the workplace, not just women. And it's not even restricted to the workplace. People in society in general need to prove themselves, but that's getting on another thread entirely.

 

The only thing I can really see different is the social aspect of work. There is, admittedly, an easier in for lunches and after-work drinks if you're "one of the boys" but respect for one's work occurs on an individual basis, regardless of gender.

 

Whomever thinks you get automatic respect simply for having a penis is just fooling themselves. And frankly, blaming a lack of respect on having a vagina bespeaks of an inflated ego in and of itself. "It can't possibly be my knowledge, experience, demeanor, work ethic, or any number of other things that is holding me back. No, it must be because I have tits."

 

I've worked with men and women in a male dominated field and, IME, the women who knew their shyt were always treated with respect.

[JCD]

You have to be nice to good people and a bitch to bad people. If a bad person is your supervisor then you have to be nice but let insults bounce off of you. It's not worth to argue with idiots or take their insults personally.

[uniqueone]

Is that the plain look?

 

 

 

Definately not. I hate "plain". I'm more artsy you could say.

[a4a]

Perhaps you need to work on your "authority" persona?

 

Example: If out to dinner with a group of people the waiter or waitress always addresses me with the questions " how is everything?" "would you like dessert?" "are you ready for the check?" - that last one sucks!

 

If at a supplier with people I am addressed.

 

Use your eyes and body to convey your authority.

 

My X told me that when I go grocery shopping it looks like I am on a mission and going to kick someones ass if they get in my way.....

 

Many of these men may see you as a threat as well. With them you need to make them comfortable by including them by name.

 

Each person you run into will require their own specific emotional cookies to be fed to them to get them to do what you need them to do.

 

If you can make your idea their idea..... you win.

 

I just pulled a $3,500 "favor" by feeding the right emotional cookies.

 

Men need their emotional cookies just as much as women...... and actually are easier to deal with, not as fickle eaters as women are.

 

You need to learn to read the other person in 30 seconds to figure out what you need to give them to get them to perform in a manner in which you desire.

 

You could be giving off submissive signals as well. Engage their eyes.

Their is also a time when you should act submissive..... when called for.

[uniqueone]

My X told me that when I go grocery shopping it looks like I am on a mission and going to kick someones ass if they get in my way.....

 

 

LOL....that's funny......same here.....when I've mentioned to people how I always get stopped by people who are asking for directions, I'm told "That's because you look like you know where you're going."

[uniqueone]

Whomever thinks you get automatic respect simply for having a penis is just fooling themselves. And frankly, blaming a lack of respect on having a vagina bespeaks of an inflated ego in and of itself. "It can't possibly be my knowledge, experience, demeanor, work ethic, or any number of other things that is holding me back. No, it must be because I have tits."

 

 

 

I don't think women are using it as a catch-all for why they don't get ahead. Women ARE kept behind....I've seen it dozens of times and I'm not talking about myself so it has nothing to do with ego. I suppose the fact that women getting paid less than men also has to do with their knowledge and experience in your view?

[a4a]

I don't think women are using it as a catch-all for why they don't get ahead. Women ARE kept behind....I've seen it dozens of times and I'm not talking about myself so it has nothing to do with ego. I suppose the fact that women getting paid less than men also has to do with their knowledge and experience in your view?

 

I just dealt with this crap last week..... I was told that I am like his wife that loves shoe shopping and dressing up..... NOT! I am the one that nails the contracts, I am the one who gets the job done. I am the one who organizes.... I am the one he finds a threat.

 

In his view I should be like his wife and be an emotional, shoe collecting, knitter........ He actually tried to cut me out of the loop because I have a vagina..... because I would not enjoy this sort of "work" as a woman. I own the company ASSWIPE! LMAO!!!!

 

I am sick of this crap too.... I love my job. I want a plasma torch! I want a lathe! and I don't appreciate being told I want to be/should be a Prada Princess just because I have tits.

[tanbark813]

I don't think women are using it as a catch-all for why they don't get ahead. Women ARE kept behind....I've seen it dozens of times and I'm not talking about myself so it has nothing to do with ego. I suppose the fact that women getting paid less than men also has to do with their knowledge and experience in your view?

 

I'm saying that I think women use being a woman as an excuse more times than it's applicable. The OP hasn't listed anything men don't have to deal with. Just because you're a man doesn't mean everyone automatically respects you. You still have to prove yourself. And office politics were around long before women entered the work force.

 

In some cases getting paid less may have to do with their knowledge and experience, and in others maybe it doesn't. I'm not saying women are never held back because of their gender, I'm saying that it's used as an excuse too much. Assuming right off the bat that it couldn't possibly be anything else is telling of an inflated ego.

 

The current company I work for was started by a man and a woman. The woman still works here and I'm sure she makes more than I do. In my last two jobs my direct managers were women. One of those jobs was at a start-up company founded by a male CEO who decided to turn the company over to someone more experienced at growing start-ups. The person he picked was a woman. I'm sure her paycheck made mine look like peanuts.

 

So, no, women aren't always held back. Sometimes yes, other times maybe they just suck at their job or have a bad attitude.

[Trialbyfire]

I'm saying that I think women use being a woman as an excuse more times than it's applicable. The OP hasn't listed anything men don't have to deal with. Just because you're a man doesn't mean everyone automatically respects you. You still have to prove yourself. And office politics were around long before women entered the work force.

 

In some cases getting paid less may have to do with their knowledge and experience, and in others maybe it doesn't. I'm not saying women are never held back because of their gender, I'm saying that it's used as an excuse too much. Assuming right off the bat that it couldn't possibly be anything else is telling of an inflated ego.

 

The current company I work for was started by a man and a woman. The woman still works here and I'm sure she makes more than I do. In my last two jobs my direct managers were women. One of those jobs was at a start-up company founded by a male CEO who decided to turn the company over to someone more experienced at growing start-ups. The person he picked was a woman. I'm sure her paycheck made mine look like peanuts.

 

So, no, women aren't always held back. Sometimes yes, other times maybe they just suck at their job or have a bad attitude.

I mostly agree with this. If you know your market worth and won't take less, you won't be given less.

 

No doubt there's a glass ceiling but it can be broken, if you don't run around with a female chip on your shoulders. No doubt men can be condescending to women but it's up to you to change it from condescension to respect.

[a4a]

If a man tried to apply to work at a day care center they likely would label him as a possible child predator in their own mind?

 

Why would a man want such a job?

 

Obvious he could not perform as well as a woman in that job?

 

It is a fact that women are paid less for the same jobs held by men.

 

Whining about it won't fix that - TBF has it right.

[tanbark813]

It is a fact that women are paid less for the same jobs held by men.

 

Not always:

 

http://blog.fastcompany.com/archives/2005/02/02/where_the_girls_are.html

 

And in cases where they are earning less, there are sometimes legitimate reasons for that:

 

His [Warren Farrell's] latest book suggests that it is not the result of rampant discrimination, but rather because of career choices women (and men) make.

 

Despite the title, his book is written to women and for women as he explains in the [COLOR=#0000ff]introduction[/COLOR] to his book. He points out that many women make career choices that give them a better balance between work and life. He provides concrete examples of choices men make that earn higher pay than other men (the pay gap between never married and married men is bigger than between men and women) and he tells women how they can actually make more money than their male counterparts if they are prepared to make the same choices.

 

Farrell claims, "It's all about trade-offs. You earn more money, you usually sacrifice something at home." His research into jobs data found that higher-paying jobs are more likely to require longer commuting times, safety risks, frequent travel, long hours and other factors that, in his tests, men are more likely than women to choose.

 

From: http://management.about.com/od/womenminorities/a/MenEarnMore2005.htm

[IpAncA]

Perhaps you need to work on your "authority" persona?

 

Well...I just need to start showing it more.

 

I had a long conversation with a close friend of mine today and we both agreed I need that "take no s**t from no one attitude" back again among other things.

 

I'm saying that I think women use being a woman as an excuse more times than it's applicable. The OP hasn't listed anything men don't have to deal with. Just because you're a man doesn't mean everyone automatically respects you. You still have to prove yourself. And office politics were around long before women entered the work force.

 

In some cases getting paid less may have to do with their knowledge and experience, and in others maybe it doesn't. I'm not saying women are never held back because of their gender, I'm saying that it's used as an excuse too much. Assuming right off the bat that it couldn't possibly be anything else is telling of an inflated ego.

 

The current company I work for was started by a man and a woman. The woman still works here and I'm sure she makes more than I do. In my last two jobs my direct managers were women. One of those jobs was at a start-up company founded by a male CEO who decided to turn the company over to someone more experienced at growing start-ups. The person he picked was a woman. I'm sure her paycheck made mine look like peanuts.

 

So, no, women aren't always held back. Sometimes yes, other times maybe they just suck at their job or have a bad attitude.

 

Yeah I see where your coming from. However I'm not using this as an excuse in case anyone was thinking that. If I told you what I do many would if not all would agree that I'll always have to deal with this.

[tanbark813]

Yeah I see where your coming from. However I'm not using this as an excuse in case anyone was thinking that. If I told you what I do many would if not all would agree that I'll always have to deal with this.

 

Can you not post what you do? I'm curious.

[Star Gazer]

It is a fact that women are paid less for the same jobs held by men.

 

This is unfortunately true. Equal positions with equal experience and performance don't always command equal pay. Hence why I have a job.

[Trialbyfire]

Whining about it won't fix that

Exactly. Life isn't equitable but you can make it equitable, even advantageous. It's how much energy you're willing to put into any enterprise in your life, be it job, relationship or hobby.

[Cobra_X30]

This is unfortunately true. Equal positions with equal experience and performance don't always command equal pay. Hence why I have a job.

 

In my industry the women are either amazing, or terrible, there seems to be no in between! I would say the good ones are 1 in 5, so that may be why the industry average is lower for women. The poor performers drag down the average.

 

The "take no prisoners" attitude is definitely not the way to go! If you get the reputation for bieng abrasive your only going to get promoted based on sheer luck and circumstance!

 

If you have ever done a personalisis test display a mix of Red and Yellow traits only!

[Star Gazer]

I would say the good ones are 1 in 5, so that may be why the industry average is lower for women. The poor performers drag down the average.

 

You didn't pay attention. This isn't about "averages."

 

EQUAL performance still doesn't equate to EQUAL pay.

 

For example, say that in order to get a yearly bonus of $5,000, an employee has to create 1,000 perfect widgets per year. A male employee can create 1,000 perfect widgets that year, and will get his $5,000 bonus. A female employee can create 1,000 identically perfect widgets and receive only a $3,500 bonus. EQUAL work, EQUAL performance, NOT equal pay. What is more, a male employee who creates only 900 widgets will still get that $5,000 bonus, and a female who created 1,200 will get $4,000. This is happening around the country, at LARGE INTERNATIONAL companies.

 

Even two managerial employees at one of these companies, right out of the SAME grad school the SAME year, without even having an opportunity to prove themselves at the company yet - one male, one female, with EQUAL job titles AND responsibilities - have a pay difference of 18%.

 

This isn't a figment of our imagination.

 

Your argument seems to be that because there are women in the industry as a whole who do not perform to the best of their ability, the other women who are top performers and are equals to men nevertheless deserve to suffer a disparate impact. Are you seriously saying that? If so, would you say the same as to men? There are obviously men who are poor performers as well.

[uniqueone]

And let's not forget....if a woman gets ahead....many people still say--even in this day and age...that she slept her way to the top.

 

I've heard it mostly from men....."Wonder what she did to get that promotion....heheheh....."

[tanbark813]

My friend's little sister just graduated law school and has been interviewing a lot lately. She only has internship experience and she's already getting job offers in the 150K range. Unless they're giving male grads a 200K offer, then I say bullshyt to the glass ceiling.

[uniqueone]

My friend's little sister just graduated law school and has been interviewing a lot lately. She only has internship experience and she's already getting job offers in the 150K range. Unless they're giving male grads a 200K offer, then I say bullshyt to the glass ceiling.

 

 

Well that's unheard of where I live. Even 100K for a new attorney is unheard of where I live.