We All Suffered

[Lizzie60]

I would think that most marriage are just 'boring' ...therefore if one of the partner is having an A on the side and the family is not aware...then I don't see how the children, even the spouse can be unhappy.

 

So, in my case, 9 out of 10 guys are averagely happy at home, except for the sex, so a PA makes everyone happy.... the W doesn't have to bother with sex, the children keep their dad at home... the H is happy cause he has his 'bonbon' on the side... and I'm happy because I have great sex and I don't have to pick up his dirty socks...

 

I have the best combo... IMO.

[Tsuki no Michi]

TNM that's exactly what I read about too when MM was talking about leaving. I tried to find research and send him information about how it really would be better for the kids if he left... but to be honest, the majority of what I found supported what you say here:

 

i.e. if the parents can offer a stable situation, in which there's no violence, abuse, put-downs or unhealthy behaviour, then it is better for the children in the longrun for the parents to stay married.

 

I hated to admit it when I found it, but it certainly was what the studies were showing.

 

The sad fact for those trapped in such relationships is that this also appears to affect adult children when relationships between parents fail. While adults can rationalize their parents' actions, inside their emotions over the breakup can cause considerable pain and anguish over the loss of something they believed permanent. I've heard it described as the rock or foundation of everything they believe about relationships and when they fail, it's like destroying the fantasy of ever after for the children. The feeling appears to be "if my parents can't make it, then how can I? It really does seem to destroy a lot of the self-confidence and strength that people have come to rely on within themselves when parents separate. Whether we like it or not, we always kids when it comes to our parents (on both sides of the relationship). Because of that it is difficult to see them as true adults when inside they will always be Mommy & Daddy.

 

Is there a happy medium somewhere? Perhaps. I continue to believe that if two people are unhappy in a relationship, then after the kids are grown they have a right to pursue something better for themselves. I don't think anyone should be expected to be a martyr for their entire lives. How to reconcile that with the harm that it does to your children, even as adults is a dilemma that I don't know we have an answer to other than to try and help them through it the best they can. I wish I had a better answer, but for those MM and MW who decide to stay for the kids, I can't fault them for their decision. It really is putting their welfare above their own and that is something that I believe is important, at least until they become adults themselves.

 

We really are a complicated species. How we are able to survive being forced to always choose between our own needs and those of others is mystifying, heartbreaking, and there just seems no real outcome other than we are destined to suffer one way or another. As much as I believe in God, I truly do not understand Him or His motives.

 

TNM

[frannie]

I would think that most marriage are just 'boring' ...therefore if one of the partner is having an A on the side and the family is not aware...then I don't see how the children, even the spouse can be unhappy.

 

Yeah well if your H is away almost all week every week for 'work', plus he neglects things round the house because he 'feels like he's letting his OW down' if he invests there... then you can easily have an unhappy W.

[frannie]

The sad fact for those trapped in such relationships is that this also appears to affect adult children when relationships between parents fail. While adults can rationalize their parents' actions, inside their emotions over the breakup can cause considerable pain and anguish over the loss of something they believed permanent. I've heard it described as the rock or foundation of everything they believe about relationships and when they fail, it's like destroying the fantasy of ever after for the children. The feeling appears to be "if my parents can't make it, then how can I? It really does seem to destroy a lot of the self-confidence and strength that people have come to rely on within themselves when parents separate. Whether we like it or not, we always kids when it comes to our parents (on both sides of the relationship). Because of that it is difficult to see them as true adults when inside they will always be Mommy & Daddy.

 

Is there a happy medium somewhere? Perhaps.

 

Yep, I've read all around that too... if you're going to divorce at some point, then no point is "good". Actually if you're going to divorce at some point, younger is perhaps better maybe from what I've read... what does your research show..?

 

My MM is adamant that he will leave her when he thinks the kids are 'old enough'... but is that the best policy..?

[Tsuki no Michi]

@Lizzie: for myself the sex is not the be-all, end-all of a relationship. Sure, it's great, but I prefer to have someone to share my life with. I find that much more fulfilling than living alone and engaging in trysts just to satisfy my physical desires. But that's me. I'm a guy who doesn't require picking up after and who is more than happy taking care of the woman I love to the extent she wants me to. If you are content in your life, then by all means enjoy it as long as you can. I know you're a girl and all, but a quote I heard a long time ago comes to mind:

 

"A bachelor's life is a fine breakfast, a flat lunch, and a miserable dinner."

~Francis Bacon

 

I wish you the best, but I cannot help but feel you will be disappointed in the end.

 

TNM

[Lizzie60]

Yeah well if your H is away almost all week every week for 'work', plus he neglects things round the house because he 'feels like he's letting his OW down' if he invests there... then you can easily have an unhappy W.

 

In this case, he's a jerk... I'm talking about average H... who have a fairly good but boring (sexless) marriage...

[Lizzie60]

@Lizzie: for myself the sex is not the be-all, end-all of a relationship. Sure, it's great, but I prefer to have someone to share my life with. I find that much more fulfilling than living alone and engaging in trysts just to satisfy my physical desires. But that's me. I'm a guy who doesn't require picking up after and who is more than happy taking care of the woman I love to the extent she wants me to. If you are content in your life, then by all means enjoy it as long as you can. I know you're a girl and all, but a quote I heard a long time ago comes to mind:

 

"A bachelor's life is a fine breakfast, a flat lunch, and a miserable dinner."

~Francis Bacon

 

I wish you the best, but I cannot help but feel you will be disappointed in the end.

 

TNM

 

I enjoy reading your posts very much... you are a 'sage'... LOL

 

I am not a girl... I am a woman (55) and I know I will not be disappointed... this is exactly where I want to be at this stage of my life.

 

I will not say a bachelor's life, in my case, it's a single's life...and I love it...wouldn't change one thing...

[GreenEyedLady]

Actually, a growing amount of research indicates that this is untrue. More and more studies are finding that as long as abuse is not present, children of all ages tend to be better off when the parents stick together, even if they are unhappy in the relationship. It's a sad fact, but kids of intact marriages, even those where the parents are unhappy together, tend to end up with better self-esteem, more confidence, and a generally better ability to cope with difficulty than those of divorced parents. The latter have a significantly higher rate of mental illness, especially depression and anxiety disorders than their peers from intact marriages. This also appears to affect adult children when relationships between parents fail, though not to the same extent.

 

I think many adults would like this not to be the case, but our society is built around the value of an intact family. It is what we teach kids at an early age and what they come to expect, whether unconscious or otherwise. Is it possible to change this belief, this expectation we are ingrained with from day one? Perhaps, but it would require people be a lot more forgiving and kind during breakups than I see happening anytime in the near future. It is possible perhaps if both parents can work together to help their children through the difficulties of a separation that they may come out less harmed than otherwise. Unfortunately this is not the norm, Rather it is the exception. Until then out children will continue to be the unwitting victims of our actions.

 

Anyway, just food for thought.

 

TNM

 

You know, I don't see how they can say definitively any way...there's no way to know how the child would have grown up both ways...It could be that it is their personality to have low self-esteem etc...

 

And there's plenty of other ways children are damaged during childhood...child abuse, molestation etc...

 

I love my children and would do anything for them...but I wouldn't stay with their dad for several reasons and us being D, he ACTUALLY sees them now...not like that when we were married...

 

So I feel that all this "so-called" research out there is just another way to make people feel guilty that they're wrong for wanting happiness for themselves...

 

If so, just call me selfish...I have one life to live and I'm not going to live it miserably...

[frannie]

In this case, he's a jerk... I'm talking about average H... who have a fairly good but boring (sexless) marriage...

 

See... IF you'd have contributed to his thread on Separation and Divorce you would probably have said he should leave, yes..?

 

My MM isn't a playa or whatever your army of MM might be... he's not looking for someone to have sex with on the side. He is trying to live two lives: one with his W and C, and one with me. And he's really satisfying no one, not even himself.

[Tsuki no Michi]

Yep, I've read all around that too... if you're going to divorce at some point, then no point is "good". Actually if you're going to divorce at some point, younger is perhaps better maybe from what I've read... what does your research show..?

 

My MM is adamant that he will leave her when he thinks the kids are 'old enough'... but is that the best policy..?

 

Everything I have read is that no time is good whenever kids are involved. Even at a young age kids still assimilate the idea of Mom & Dad together so unless you break up before they ever realize who Mom & Dad are and the fact that they are "supposed" to be together, I think you're going to hurt them no matter what. It's hard enough for adults to understand, but when other kids ask "Where is your Dad?" or "How come we never see your Mom?" it hurts the children because they are at an age when fitting in and feeling like they belong are important. They may not always show it, but inside they feel like there's something wrong with their family, and thus there must be something wrong with them too. It's a hard thing to accept as parents. As a child of a broken marriage I know all to well how true the above example is, and how even as kids they take blame upon themselves for what's wrong with Mommy & Daddy. I remember explicitly thinking that if I were just not there that Mom & Dad would be okay, even though my parents never once hinted that us kids were the cause of their problems.

 

TNM

[Lizzie60]

See... IF you'd have contributed to his thread on Separation and Divorce you would probably have said he should leave, yes..?

 

My MM isn't a playa or whatever your army of MM might be... he's not looking for someone to have sex with on the side. He is trying to live two lives: one with his W and C, and one with me. And he's really satisfying no one, not even himself.

 

No.. I probably would have tell him to stay with his family and get what he needs outside... I don't know the thread you're talking about but I doubt very much I would have said to leave.

[Tsuki no Michi]

So I feel that all this "so-called" research out there is just another way to make people feel guilty that they're wrong for wanting happiness for themselves...

 

If so, just call me selfish...I have one life to live and I'm not going to live it miserably...

 

I can't fault you for that. I feel the same way. However, if you go back and read the research out there, originally the idea was that it was indeed better for the kids for unhappy parents to separate (1970-1990). It is only now that researchers have access to a large sampling of the children who grew up in those times when divorce was encouraged that they are learning how such actions did affect the kids involved. Believe what you want about whether they wish to guilt us into certain beliefs (hell I wish they were true too!), but like it or not what we want to believe doesn't appear to be the case. Granted, there may be outside factors involved such as the hostility of the separation, living/custody arrangements, etc. that may influence the negative impact on the chilfren that we don't know about yet. Perhaps it's possible to determine the "perfect" way to separate and still keep healthy kids, but we haven't found it yet unfortunately. Obviously much more research is needed, but reaistically for the foreseeable future all we have is what is, not what we'd like it to be.

 

@Lizzie: my apologies for calling you a 'girl' . As I said, if you are happy in your life then by all means go for it. I just know it wouldn't be a life I would want, though in the end I may end up where you are anyway. Ah well.

 

Oh, I would hardly call myself a 'sage'. More like one who has experienced more of life's sadness and heartache than I would wish on anyone else. The Bible says wisdom is to be cherished above gold and silver and to be sought after over anything else. Unfortunately what it doesn't tell you is the only way to gain wisdom is through experience. Some price to pay and realistically, sometimes I'd prefer gold & silver...

 

TNM

[GreenEyedLady]

Everything I have read is that no time is good whenever kids are involved. Even at a young age kids still assimilate the idea of Mom & Dad together so unless you break up before they ever realize who Mom & Dad are and the fact that they are "supposed" to be together, I think you're going to hurt them no matter what. It's hard enough for adults to understand, but when other kids ask "Where is your Dad?" or "How come we never see your Mom?" it hurts the children because they are at an age when fitting in and feeling like they belong are important. They may not always show it, but inside they feel like there's something wrong with their family, and thus there must be something wrong with them too. It's a hard thing to accept as parents. As a child of a broken marriage I know all to well how true the above example is, and how even as kids they take blame upon themselves for what's wrong with Mommy & Daddy. I remember explicitly thinking that if I were just not there that Mom & Dad would be okay, even though my parents never once hinted that us kids were the cause of their problems.

 

TNM

 

Sorry, this is a break down of educating the adults involved...

 

The D rate is over 50% now...most children know MANY people who's parents are divorced...It's not a surprise for kids to learn that their friends spend every other weekend with their dad or mom...

 

I think it's more on the adults who are handling it as to whether the children will be more adversely affected for a long period of time...If mom acts like her life is over, of course that is going to affect the children's outlook...

 

If the adults involved act like adults and are positive about it, it can do wonders for helping the children cope...Just be honest with your children and answer their questions...And don't badmouth the other parent in front of them...

 

If more people acted like adults when they got divorced, I bet the research would be slightly different...

[Tsuki no Michi]

If more people acted like adults when they got divorced, I bet the research would be slightly different...

 

Agreed. However, in the 50+ years since divorce has become "acceptable" in this country, very little progress has been made in this regard. Until there is, then the effects are what they are. I can wish they were different, but seeing as about 95-98% of all divorces I have witnessed have been acrimonious I don't see that changing anytime soon. Adults can be quite childish and selfish when it comes to fighting for what *they* want. So much for the old adage of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" I guess. Now it seems it's mostly "do unto others before they do unto you."

 

Cheers, Gary

[frannie]

No.. I probably would have tell him to stay with his family and get what he needs outside... I don't know the thread you're talking about but I doubt very much I would have said to leave.

 

This was his thread:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t111068/?highlight=WBAsmethwick

[frannie]

Everything I have read is that no time is good whenever kids are involved. Even at a young age kids still assimilate the idea of Mom & Dad together so unless you break up before they ever realize who Mom & Dad are and the fact that they are "supposed" to be together, I think you're going to hurt them no matter what. It's hard enough for adults to understand, but when other kids ask "Where is your Dad?" or "How come we never see your Mom?" it hurts the children because they are at an age when fitting in and feeling like they belong are important.

 

So if there is no good time, then now is as good/bad as any..?

[Tsuki no Michi]

So if there is no good time, then now is as good/bad as any..?

 

I don't know. Most of the research has been on the effects of divorce on kids, not when poses the least impact. I *believe* it is probably best after children reach full emotional maturity (around age 24 for both boys & girls) and can rationalize why Mom & Dad separated better. However, I don't have any research to back that up, it's just a gut feeling.

 

However, as I said to GEL I think by both parents actively working together to ensure the kids know they are loved and will be taken care of then perhaps it can work at any time. The biggest fears all kids have when going through a divorce is where they will live, what will they do, and what is going to happen to them. At any age a child's world revolves solely around them, and anything the parents can do to insure their kids know they will be okay and that even though Mom & Dad may not be together they will still work together to take care of them may help minimize the damage. From everything I have read this is key, yet it is one of the hardest and least practiced aspects of separation in divorces. Parents become so focused on what is happening to *them* that they forget about how their kids are feeling during the process. Even if nothing bad is going to happen to the kids, the worry and guilt that they hold inside is tremendous. Allowing an impartial legal system to determine final custody arrangements is probably the most heinous thing to come out of the divorce generation and is IMO the single biggest problem that needs to be overcome in order to help more kids make it through the process with the fewest wounds possible.

 

I know, just a long winded way of saying "maybe."

 

TNM

[whichwayisup]

I agree that everyone gets hurt, but, the OW/OM brought on that pain by having an affair seems to be a one sided blame. There are many marriages where the W had no idea what was going on and was just truly wonderful to her husband so, there was no reason to go looking for someone else. But some marriages the BS did not live up to thier end of the m.

 

That, is still NO excuse to go cheat. If the wandering spouse is feeling neglected in the marriage, he/she can fix it, talk about it...But, many don't and choose to cheat, and have an affair is NOT the BS's fault. Sure, the BS is partially responsible for any problems in the marriage, but to say the BS didn't live up to their part in the marriage and that is why the wandering spouse cheated is pure justification and crap.

[whichwayisup]

Do you go around telling people they 'bought it on themselves' in every situation..?

 

No I don't. Just when it comes to affairs and those who chose to have them, have to take responsibility for their part. Hense the OW/OM, MM/MW. This isn't against anyone inparticular. To me, it's just common sense if you enter an affair, eventually you're gonna get hurt.

 

Why do we have to have this comparison of pain

 

Unfortunately, yes. Because the pain a BS feels is unexpected as her husband cheated on her. An OW CHOSE to enter the affair with a MM. Unless ofcourse, she didn't know he was married, then that's different. She then has a choice to end it or continue in the A.

[whichwayisup]

Friend gets food poisoning: oh dear, you must be feeling terrible, but you know what I told you about eating seafood. Colleague loses their house in a fire: oh my that has to be devastating, but you know what if everyone would only get water sprinklers such things would never happen. Child falls off a bike and hurts themselves: oh honey that must sting, but you know what you bought it on yourself by riding without stabilisers.

 

COME ON Frannie. There is a HUGE difference between CHEATING and the examples you've given. I'm not even going to bother explain the difference, you should know.

[Lizzie60]

This was his thread:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t111068/?highlight=WBAsmethwick

 

That was before I joined LS... I just read the OP... not the whole thread... but I would have asked him if this OW was married..and how she felt..

 

It's hard to say now... but I rarely advise to leave their kids and W, if they can manage to stay married, I still think it's the best 'arrangement'.

[frannie]

So... the three last posters:

 

What would you advise me and him. He doesn't love his wife, wants to do best by his children (aged currently 10 and 13) and fully intends to spend a lifetime (or what's left of it) with the woman he does love.

 

Based on those figures, because I have no doubt they're true, so let's imagine for a moment they ARE... what would you advise as the most sensible course of events..?

[frannie]

That was before I joined LS... I just read the OP... not the whole thread... but I would have asked him if this OW was married..and how she felt..

 

It's hard to say now... but I rarely advise to leave their kids and W, if they can manage to stay married, I still think it's the best 'arrangement'.

 

No, his OW isn't married and still isn't. He loves me, wants to spend the rest of his life with me, but what is his best course of action.

 

Not sure how you can dismiss him as a ... can't remember what you did call him, but whatever it was... he is staying married because of his feelings for his kids, not because he thinks it's best for HIM as such. But obviously I don't think it's a good move because not only am I waiting, but his W is miserable too...

 

... so... what is the best action on his part..?

[Lizzie60]

So... the three last posters:

 

What would you advise me and him. He doesn't love his wife, wants to do best by his children (aged currently 10 and 13) and fully intends to spend a lifetime (or what's left of it) with the woman he does love.

 

Based on those figures, because I have no doubt they're true, so let's imagine for a moment they ARE... what would you advise as the most sensible course of events..?

 

This is hard... he might not love his wife but can be just in a boring M, without being miserable...

 

Based on what is there, if this is all true... my advice would be.. if he is not THAT miserable and can tolerate his M... I say stay for the sake of the kids... and have an A on the side...

 

But it's easy for me and for anyone else to advise the spouse to stay, when we don't really know the whole story...

[Tsuki no Michi]

So... the three last posters:

 

What would you advise me and him. He doesn't love his wife, wants to do best by his children (aged currently 10 and 13) and fully intends to spend a lifetime (or what's left of it) with the woman he does love.

 

Based on those figures, because I have no doubt they're true, so let's imagine for a moment they ARE... what would you advise as the most sensible course of events..?

 

For the record I hate giving advice because what works for one person may not work for another. That being said, *if* he and his wife can both agree to make sure the children are given the first priority in the breakup and divorce is what he absolutely wants to do then I want to believe it can work out. The problem will come though when it comes time to put their money where their mouth is (in some respects literally). A "good" separation - if there is such a thing - means he and she will have to intentionally work to not fight about stupid little stuff like who gets what in the settlement. This includes custody arrangements. Too many times couples say they want an amicable split, but when it comes down to splitting assets the meanness in them comes out because they get fixated on insuring they aren't "taken advantage of" and making sure they "get what's theirs."

 

My MW is in a similar situation. She tried to leave, but her husband basically told her he would do everything in his power to make sure the kids knew *she* was the one who "abandoned the family" and that it was because *she* "didn't love us enough." Very clever of him in some ways as he managed to always insinuate in a passive-aggressive way that *he* was the one who wanted the family together and he refused to ever concede that the difficulties were between she and himself. They were always between her and the rest of the family. I know, I was there when she had the conversations with him. Basically he would go out of his way to use his children as a weapon against her which I find despicable.

 

I understand I am biased in such a situation, but the reality is my mother actually did this exact thing with us kids. I was the only one old enough at the time to understand that my father wasn't the horrible person she portrayed him as and eventually managed to reconnect with my Dad. My brothers weren't so fortunate and my Dad has had almost no contact with them over the past 20 years and now my remaining brother doesn't feel like he needs a father anymore. It is sad and heartbreaking that someone can be so selfish that they will use their own young children as a weapon to hurt another person. It is for that reason that I had no choice but to tell my own MW she needed to stay for her kids. I didn't want what happened to me to ever happen to her children. She still wants to be with me, but until her children are old enough to understand the truth about adult relationships, as long as there remains no abuse in the relationship then neither of us is willing to cause harm to come to them. I don't know if when the time comes she will be able to leave, but that is a price both of us will have to pay if necessary. It's not right, it's not good, but it is right for her children and that is what is important right now. I wish it were different, but it's not and there's not much I can do about it (well, there's nothing I can do about it really which sucks).

 

In short, I want to say I hope he can leave to be with you so that you both can be happy together. But it will depend on how he and his wife can work through the separation.

 

TNM