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Old 29th October 2017, 5:40 PM   #31
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Yes, if you are shy you have the problem on either side, that is true. But I still see a difference between "running away from offers" (women) and not having any chances whatsoever (men).
There is a difference in that one provides a confidence boost, but both ultimately lead to the same consequence. No relationship/sex.

I will use a personal expample since you did. I had social anxiety through most of my adolescence. My types didn't cold approach me reall. Ive always been into shy, somewhat nerdy guys. Whenever I got a chance, I was extremely avoidant(closed off, go the other direction. If caught, answer curtly and say sorry have to run). So it took a very long time to find a bf and I didn't have sex until very late.

Now, one might say I simply needed to overcome the obstacle of being awkward and avoidant. Like a man is told to focus on his career and become wealthy, or work on his social skills to become suave. It took me awhile, still far from extremely successful, but marginally more success now.

(My type approach a little more, even though they are shy, specifically within group settings where we are supposed to be social. I attribute this to being more open/friendly and less standoffish.Still, I have to show a lot of interest. I have to focus only on him, flirt a lot, engage all night, then finally when I say I am leaving he'll ask me for my number. That doesn't take into account the effort needed for dating and getting to sex. I can't imagine a girl with full-blown social anxiety doing that.


I won't say all men can get sex or a date if they want to...but most guys could if they dropped their standards to a woman that had next to no appeal to them. But very few want to do that..

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Old 29th October 2017, 7:23 PM   #32
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There is a difference in that one provides a confidence boost, but both ultimately lead to the same consequence. No relationship/sex.

I will use a personal expample since you did. I had social anxiety through most of my adolescence. My types didn't cold approach me reall. Ive always been into shy, somewhat nerdy guys. Whenever I got a chance, I was extremely avoidant(closed off, go the other direction. If caught, answer curtly and say sorry have to run). I couldn't help it. I froze up. So it took a very long time to find a bf and I didn't have sex until very late.

Now, one might say I simply needed to overcome the obstacle of being awkward and avoidant. Just as easy as it is for a man to focus on his career and become wealthy, or work on his social skills to become suave. It took me years, still far from extremely successful, but marginally more success now.

(My type) Guys approach more, even though they are shy, specifically within group settings where we are supposed to be social. I attribute this to being more open/friendly and less standoffish.Still, I have to show a lot of interest. I have to focus only on him, flirt a lot, engage all night, then finally when I say I am leaving he'll ask me for my number. I can't imagine a girl with full-blown social anxiety doing that.


I won't say all men can get sex or a date if they want to...but most guys could if they dropped their standards to a woman that had next to no appeal to them. But very few want to do that. It's no different for women. They are getting more offers with no appeal, there's still no relationships/sex happening. Transient confidence boost maybe, but same consequence.
I would say that there is a difference, because even that transient confidence boost is not available to these men. There are no offers. They get by on maybe a fleeting smile and nothing more.

(I actually tried to set up some of these guys with women, but even these attempts were unsuccessful, even though some of the women found these guys hot. There is some irony in me trying to attempt that.)

Honestly, I don't know how it felt for them, but it must have been painful, otherwise they wouldn't have recoiled that much.

I was different. I stuttered until my mid-twenties. Approaching women while stuttering is an interesting endeavor. A very few don't mind, most showed signs of pity, but then tried to remove themselves from the situation, others just showed signs of disgust, like a person who had just stepped into a pile of horse manure. I had hardened myself through public speaking (or public stuttering, whatever you'd want to call it) to push through this. Hadn't I been that stoic and extroverted, I don't think I could have pulled it off. I don't think most men got the same level of negative responses as I did.

Could I have had sex earlier? Yes, but I would have had to include women significantly older than I. While I had a preference, it wasn't a very strong one. I was mostly clueless about what type of woman within my age group would be receptive, which in turn led me to not being able to take the chances I had.

But I hope you see the difference. It is one thing, to get positive feedback and being unable to respond to it, as frustrating as that may be, in contrast to being stuck in a negative feedback loop and trying to not let it get to you.

What I described as hardening was more of putting a distance between most people and I, which for an extroverted person is actually painful, which I kinda overcompensated with spending time among friends. But it literally took me years to undo that.

Sex was an afterthought at that time. Just not being rejected would have been nice.
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Old 29th October 2017, 8:05 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ZA Dater View Post
Personally I couldn't think of anything worse than asking someone out I don't find attractive at all,
I never said you should go around asking everyone out, you should just talk to them. In fact, I suggest the opposite. Talk to people without an agenda. Just talk. Make conversation and get used to talking with women.

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worse still finding out the only people who are into me are ones I don't find attractive.
First world problems.

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Granted I am reading a lot into the statement and I agree one can chat to all and sundry, whether this actually helps get one a date is mute, it might however make a person more comfortable around people.
Dating is all about networking. I make actual friends often just by chatting to random people. I work a lot in the summer and always stop by the same deli each night at work. The girl that works at the deli sent me a friend request on FB and a week or so later she invited herself to my house. I have a GF so I declined, but that was a date I earned just by talking to a woman without an agenda. If my GF ever broke up with me for whatever reason, I could just call that girl up and she would be at my place for some of my Netflix and Chill.

That's just one example, there are plenty of others. It also behooves one to become proficient in conversation with ladies. Women like an outgoing, friendly guy. Being good at talking with women has allowed me to punch out of my weight class every now and then.
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Old 30th October 2017, 12:46 AM   #34
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There is a difference in that one provides a confidence boost, but both ultimately lead to the same consequence. No relationship/sex.

I will use a personal expample since you did. I had social anxiety through most of my adolescence. My types didn't cold approach me reall. Ive always been into shy, somewhat nerdy guys. Whenever I got a chance, I was extremely avoidant(closed off, go the other direction. If caught, answer curtly and say sorry have to run). So it took a very long time to find a bf and I didn't have sex until very late.

I have an aspergers diagnosis so I always struggled interacting socially. Making friends was always a challenge, dating was definitely a challenge. I think a lot of people with autism/aspergers struggle dating wise simply because aspergers is a social disorder so you're not going to naturally pick up on social cues that other people would. In fact, most people with aspergers don't start dating till their 20s.

There used to be a time where I couldn't interact with women my age at all. I was too scared. In fact, I didn't get comfortable enough talking to girls until I was about 20. I asked my first girl out at the age of 21, I went on my first ever date at 22.

And I will admit, it's tough but I definitely want to find someone. I really really do, lol.
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Old 30th October 2017, 9:19 AM   #35
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I would say that there is a difference, because even that transient confidence boost is not available to these men. There are no offers. They get by on maybe a fleeting smile and nothing more.
CptInsano, maybe I lack empathy in this case, but I find it hard to feel bad for guys who don't get their egos boosted from being hit on by women they aren't interested in. I can't say my life has been enriched by male attention that leads nowhere. I recognize A LOT of women do like it. I don't, however. I feel uncomfortable to the point it's become an exercise for me to put myself out there.
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(I actually tried to set up some of these guys with women, but even these attempts were unsuccessful, even though some of the women found these guys hot. There is some irony in me trying to attempt that.)
Yeah...That. That doesn't work. You can set us up with people and say how great we are, but we have to do the rest and that all goes to hell relatively soon after interacting. No one has the ability to make some to like us or desire us but ourselves. When we are awkward, that's just it for us. It's the Kiss Of Death, CptInsano. It's horribly sad to say, but sometimes it feels like natural selection at work...



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Honestly, I don't know how it felt for them, but it must have been painful, otherwise they wouldn't have recoiled that much.
I know all too well how it felt for them. It feels like complete rejection. Like something is wrong with you. You ponder why something that seems to come so naturally for most of the other 7 billion on the planet is a challenge for you. Recoiling is a knee-jerk response. I admire people who are able to jump right back into the lion's den, but not everyone's built for that. Some can only take so much before they say "what's even the point?" I don't even deal with men romantically anymore. I deleted my Tinder. I truthfully don't know if I will go back or just stay in, take up knitting more seriously, and grow cobwebs.
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I was different. I stuttered until my mid-twenties. Approaching women while stuttering is an interesting endeavor. A very few don't mind, most showed signs of pity, but then tried to remove themselves from the situation, others just showed signs of disgust, like a person who had just stepped into a pile of horse manure. I had hardened myself through public speaking (or public stuttering, whatever you'd want to call it) to push through this. Hadn't I been that stoic and extroverted, I don't think I could have pulled it off. I don't think most men got the same level of negative responses as I did.
That's incredibly admirable. It takes an immense amount of determination and mental fortitude. I freak at public speaking to this day. It seems like you overcame that obstacle to a great extent, or at least it didn't impede your ability to be desirable to several carefully selected partners throughout your life, iirc. I hope I get one more, but I'm not counting on it.
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Could I have had sex earlier? Yes, but I would have had to include women significantly older than I. While I had a preference, it wasn't a very strong one. I was mostly clueless about what type of woman within my age group would be receptive, which in turn led me to not being able to take the chances
I know all about missed chances. My post history is like an excerpt from my compendium of missed chances. I've entertained dating older men, but I nixed that idea. I know I'd be no more successful.
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But I hope you see the difference. It is one thing, to get positive feedback and being unable to respond to it, as frustrating as that may be, in contrast to being stuck in a negative feedback loop and trying to not let it get to you.
I'd describe my feedback as neutral at best. I still don't see the difference, CptInsano. I'm sorry. I don't mean to seem dense or disrespectful. It's probably there and very obvious. I am just missing it. I want to understand how one is more beneficial?
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What I described as hardening was more of putting a distance between most people and I, which for an extroverted person is actually painful, which I kinda overcompensated with spending time among friends. But it literally took me years to undo that.
But I thought your hardening made you stronger? Or did I misunderstand you again. I think I'm extroverted too. It does hurt being crippled like that. I love being around people.
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Sex was an afterthought at that time. Just not being rejected would have been nice.
While I do feel for men that go through this, I don't think men really get what it's like to be a woman who can't get men she's attracted to, especially when she doesn't consider her standards outrageous. CryForNoOne said it. Not much worse in the dating realm than being an undesired woman. Men have much more leeway for improvement. When you hear people talk about how women's main concern should be weeding the guys who just want to sleep with her from the ones who want to date her, imagine for a moment being a woman who defies that presupposition and can't get LAID. How would you feel? Not cool.

And when you try to explain this they tell you, "just go to a bar in a skimpy outfit and wait for guys to come up and offer to sleep with you" OH. Ohhhhhh. Okay. Really? And when you get over the incredulity of this suggestion and tell them you aren't exactly attracted to that idea or the men who accost you like that -- thirsty and foaming at the mouth all like -- and that perhaps, just maybe, you want some you are ATTRACTED TO (Not to say you have anything against gremlins carrying so many viruses most women would wear a hazmat suit to go near, you just don't think it's for you) they look at you as if you're squandering your privilege???? These are the same men who tell you they don't date women over a certain weight, as well.

It's really hard. It's hard to read threads about dating and sex and being incapable of jumping in bed with a guy on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd date because of an awful combination of shyness, morals, and general undesirability, while others can and do. It's hard to know you really have nothing to offer a man. It's hard to know that this probably won't change for you. And perhaps worse of all, no one even believes it's possible for women. Your reality is denied. I'm not writing this for pity. OK, maybe I am. I don't know why I'm writing all this. A futile attempt to be understood, I suppose? IDK

Last edited by Cookiesandough; 30th October 2017 at 9:38 AM..
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Old 30th October 2017, 10:21 AM   #36
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@Cookie

This deserves a detailed answer, not something quickly typed on a smartphone. In short, yes I still believe there is a difference. I know what young women go through in this regard, I've seen it many times. Do I know what it feels like? No, of course not. It would be somewhat arrogant of me to assume that. But yes, I will respond in more detail later.
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Old 30th October 2017, 12:43 PM   #37
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Well, all I can say is I'm glad I'm not a guy. I would hate having to risk getting rejected every time I wanted to get a date. I couldn't imagine that, I would be way too afraid to ask anyone out, and I'd probably just stay single!

But seriously, I remember back in high and middle school, me and my friends used to mercilessly reject most of the boys that we flirted with, and I would hate having to subject myself to that kind of humiliation the 9/10 times that guys probably get rejected, on average.

So I really feel sorry for guys sometimes, and in this sense, I think it's much easier being a girl. You get to choose, and you don't have to risk being rejected.
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Old 30th October 2017, 12:52 PM   #38
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the thing is, and what women dont often realize, is that every time we're out and about, shopping, whatever, and a single guy checks us out or just walks by and doesn't approach we are rejected. it's a more subtle rejection but we're constantly being rejected nonetheless. if he doesn't have the nerve to approach us, hes not interested enough

Last edited by Cookiesandough; 30th October 2017 at 1:03 PM..
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Old 30th October 2017, 1:08 PM   #39
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I don't believe that women do not approach. I have watched women approach my 6'3 bearded monster of a friend who basically gets vagina thrown at him wherever he goes. He's hilarious and totally alpha if I have ever witnessed it. He's a guy who has stories I could never imagine happening to me. He's a vagina killer if there ever was one. He's one of my dating mentors. He's not perfect (nobody is) but I tend to be a "nice guy" and he shows me the other side of the coin.


I have been chased on numerous occasions, although most of the women who came my way I was not interested in. One woman in particular ended up being one of my favorite relationships. She chased me down on Facebook after we parted ways at a concert. Let me tell you, when a woman chases you down and you are into her as well, that's an INCREDIBLE feeling.


This is not to say I haven't had my share of total devastation and mountain of rejection. ****, I have a thread explaining my current dating woes. It's HARD sometimes. You MUST learn how to overcome the fear of rejection. You MUST lead your life the way you want it to be lead. Go ahead and learn from others. Learn how to be better. I am always learning. I may NEVER meet the woman of my dreams, but I promise I will definitely never meet her if I am not out there trying. Don't go for slump busters or settle. Just go for what you want. Trust me, I still fail myself right out of approaching by self sabotage; telling myself "she would never go for me." How the hell do I even know that?!


This year has be particularly awful for me in terms of dating.. but I cannot give up.
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Old 30th October 2017, 1:25 PM   #40
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Sorry you are experiencing this. Dating is a challenging experience, rejection and joy are a part of it. Maybe you can go on a date in a more relaxed environment. Find someone who shares the same likes as you. Example, if you like to take walks in the park, or play tennis, ask someone out with similar likes. Start the dating process out slow. Do simple things together so you can both discover each other in a natural environment. Honesty and understanding each other's expectations are very central to an honest and trusting relationship. I know that there is a wonderful girl out there for you. You just need to be at peace, treat your dates with honesty and respect, and free your mind and heart from any rejection, guilt or fear. Sometimes you have to dig thru the dirt to find diamonds. I know you will find your diamond!
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Old 30th October 2017, 1:29 PM   #41
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the thing is, and what women dont often realize, is that every time we're out and about, shopping, whatever, and a single guy checks us out or just walks by and doesn't approach we are rejected. it's a more subtle rejection but we're constantly being rejected nonetheless. if he doesn't have the nerve to approach us, hes not interested enough
Just out of curiosity, what would make you think that? How can he reject you if you are anything but a fleeting image in his peripheral vision while he is out doing what he needs to do?
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Old 30th October 2017, 1:33 PM   #42
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Perception of rejection turns on feelings, emotions, else it'd be a zero. The word wouldn't be used. If I feel rejected in my own mind and heart, I'm rejected. The rest of the world isn't really part of that. It's internal. The key IMO for the OP is managing that internal stuff, the feelings.

Hence, using the example provided, a dozen guys a lady might find attractive could walk by, not even noticing her or forming any cogent thoughts about her and she could and may indeed feel rejected because she does. Her emotions are her perception, no different from the OP's being his
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Old 30th October 2017, 1:40 PM   #43
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the thing is, and what women dont often realize, is that every time we're out and about, shopping, whatever, and a single guy checks us out or just walks by and doesn't approach we are rejected. it's a more subtle rejection but we're constantly being rejected nonetheless. if he doesn't have the nerve to approach us, hes not interested enough

C'mon you can't be serious...

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Old 30th October 2017, 1:51 PM   #44
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Recently I went to the local sushi bar by myself to sit down and have dinner. I don't mind being alone sometimes, it also causes me to strike conversation with people out in the wild. I noticed the hostess at the door when I walked in was so attractive, right up my alley in terms of looks. I immediately began thinking about how I would get her attention and made it an objective to at least ask for her number.


As I sat in my booth, I watched her a little bit, and soon she was walking by my table getting a pitcher of water for the other tables. Right there I knew since she was the type of hostess to assist the servers as well, I may have a chance to say something while sitting.


This is where my nerves kicked in. How do I approach this? I'm an over thinker and that actually hurts me in dating. It has to be natural, casual, quick-witted, and as funny/charming as possible. She walked by, I made eye contact, smiled, and I gave a quick "Hows it going?" Which triggered her to stop and talk to me. Hardly charming, pretty basic greeting. I didn't treat her like a hostess, I treated her like she was there just like I was.


We talked a moment, she explained she hadn't been to work in a while from an injury. I asked about that, she said she had a bike accident because she can't see well in the dark (poor night vision). I joked around about contact lenses, etc. Then at the end I asked for her number and she gave it to me. Great!


I texted her a little joke: "We gotta get you some night vision goggles!"


No response.


I asked her some days later about her weekend.


No response.


I asked her some days later if she is single or not.


Nothing.


So.. she was either a deer in headlights when I asked for her number and gave it to me knowing full well she wasn't interested on that level or.. who knows. But for me that's a rejection, and look at all I did to get there! Guess what? Onto the next. Keep going, just like a drill. Practice, practice, practice.
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Old 30th October 2017, 1:51 PM   #45
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Hence, using the example provided, a dozen guys a lady might find attractive could walk by, not even noticing her or forming any cogent thoughts about her and she could and may indeed feel rejected because she does. Her emotions are her perception, no different from the OP's being his
Yes, most certainly. It's an almost classic definition of an attribution error.
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