Babybird Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 However, my own personal feeling is that if I love myself, I'll take care of myself and that entails not putting myself in a position where I could be hurt. MM or SM there is always a risk of getting hurt. I've had my heart broken a ton of times and the men weren't married..just jerks. Maybe the reason that so many BS become OW/OM is because there isn't as many expectations. It's hard to get hurt when you don't expect anything. Just a thought. In a round about way your self esteem is based on other peoples opinions. For ex: If you hear you're ugly your entire life odds are you'll begin to believe it. Your perception begins to change. When you meet someone that tells you your pretty over and over you eventually begin to believe. Then image in the mirror doesn't look so bad anymore. People go to therapy to change their perception by delving deep into what caused it. Why can't people that love you do that?
serial muse Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 Are you for REAL!! What's with the attitude! I certainly did not give you attitude!!! Where did I even "write" anything whatsoever about you "badmouthing or flaming"! Here! Have some visine for your rolling eyes!!! calm down. you rolled your eyes at me. of course that's giving attitude. i am the last person you need to bother shouting at. so stop.
Ripples Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 No, never, I have only ever mentioned it ever, on LS, I am ashamed and embarrased, although I know I shouldnt be, however, I dont want people to think I'm using it as an excuse for R with MM but its more to do with the low self-esteem. Maybe should raise it on there as another post thinking about it. However started here now people might as well know me warts and all. lol. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t97082/ Well that's obviously going to cause issues. You have this seven year old inside you that is really struggling. No child can be, or should be, equipped to deal with that! Just like we all have a parent/adult/child within us, you have a child within you. She hasn't been able to heal from it. Now your adult needs to take control of the situation and get some real input on dealing with it. Ok? I dont know how you feel but in some ways I still feel that the UK is still not as forward on counselling as the US. JMO. That you should just get on with it yourself. Oh, you're right in so many ways! But I think we're catching you up I also think that the general public is becoming more aware of what is available and more demanding about what they need. I'm in therapy with a guy that uses quite an holistic approach, a mixture of NLP, CBT, hypnotherapy and even a little psycho-dynamic (which I used to think was so old hat and such a waste of time). Anyway, his approach works for me and I've seen a pretty radical change in the two months I've been going. Mind you, long way to go yet. mmm, I can see your point, however I suppose I am only thinking about how he happy he makes me feel, the trouble is that you realise the detrimental part to your emotional health comes quite a while after the start, by that time you have given yourself emotionally to this person and fallen in love. I know some people don't believe it is true love, and scoff at it, but I have been infatuated and had pure lust with people before and know the difference. Sorry not wanting to p1ss anyone off but I am really laying myself out truthfully here so to speak. Yes, of course. It's only when we've experienced something that we'll realise what will happen if we do it again. So, you're right, one doesn't realise the extent of the emotional toil until one actually gets there, and by then you're in love. Now this whole 'in love' business. I really do believe that love is just a feeling and as potentially transient as every other feeling. Feelings don't come out of the blue, you know. Every feeling is born from a thought. So, maybe you need to examine your thoughts about this man, about this situation. I believe you may need to examine your values, where they are in conflict and what values are being fulfilled by this man and what values are, as a consequence, suffering. I think it'd be pretty difficult to do this without some coaching, so I'd highly recommend you find someone decent. But my main thought is surely its not just a MM that could cause this, surely a control freak could as well, yeah I know thats an extreme example but first one I could think of. Again not arguing with you, just trying to follow it thru and its more than likely I could be wrong. Control freak? Where did comparing a MM with a control freak come in? What is your connection between the two? Ok, I'm more interested now, what do you mean by co-dependancy? I take it you mean that each person is dependant on each other but do you mean that they feel unable to be independant. Or just on an emotional level? Thanks again. The word co-dependency is typically used to describe people who gravitate toward unhealthy relationships. Co-dependents live their lives through someone else. They feel controlled by others and they also feet the need to control others. Co-dependence is learned. It includes behaviors, feelings and beliefs which lead to sacrificing values and personal needs in exchange for love and approval of others. Co-dependents take responsibility for others and neglect their own wants and needs. They are caretakers out of the need to be perceived as worthwhile because they are desperate for approval. This differs from caretakers who feel good about themselves and help people out of choice. Most co-dependents appear to be strong and in control. However, inside they often feel inadequate and scared, and they desperately fear a loss of control. The need to control is usually an attempt to reduce their anxiety. Most co-dependent people have been raised in dysfunctional families. They were taught that they were not important. They were encouraged to set aside their own needs and wants, and take care of others. In most cases, they acted adult-like as children. From: http://www.mindspring.com/~joanmiller/articles/co-dependancy.html[/FONT] Do you see what I mean about each person supporting the other? How that support could be detrimental to each of them? I'm not saying that it is the case, but where both parties are in an unhealthy relationship, i.e. an affair, it could be.
RealityCheck Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 calm down. you rolled your eyes at me. of course that's giving attitude. i am the last person you need to bother shouting at. so stop. I do appologize because I didn't realize it was a "rolling eyes" smilie! I honest to God thought is was just a "smilie"! That's why I wrote "Understood" and that's why when you responded I couldn't quite figure out what all the fuss was about. No problem, I'm am letting it go.... Carry on...
puddleofmud Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 The basic definition of co-dependency (and I am sure others will have more to add, especially if I don't explain this well) is that one's emotional responses are learned and embedded at a very early age. Thus, by early emotionally learned experience one may habitually be more adept or attracted to responding to what is already deeply "en-coded". As an adult, one is not particularly aware or consious of these emotional "values" , which may be irrational but retain some child-hood rationalizations about survival called "survival techniques" and still continue (unaware) to use these instinctive techniques as an adult, although inappropriate or unsuccessful. Shorter version: however one learned as a child to negotiate fearful / difficult situations may bring the same emotional responses and same survival techniques with them as adults. To further, or hopefully, better explain here are a few examples: -A female child has a terminally ill father who often must be hospitalized. This child prays for him to get better, her life is consumed with his care, her every thought is about him being well and home with her, but he passes away. She grows up with the wonderful aspect of "nurturing" but is fearful of loss. Thus, she tends to be attracted to men who are in need of nurture, those who aren't whole and "sick" in another way. But she cannot recognise this and is emotionally terrified of loss, so she stays. -A male child has a mother who is substance-addicted. He must take care of her as she is physically and/or emotionally unable to take care of herself. She is unavailable as to his emotional needs and he becomes the "parent" taking care of HER. He grows up to be a very responsible young man, but is emotionally attracted to someone he can take care of (fix) and these persons may be un-healthy; (as was his mother). The hallmark of co-dependency is a child who was never allowed, by whatever life-situation to be a CHILD and develop normal coping skills to be used later in life. Their stunted emotional growth and their resulting abnormal coping skills leads them to choose adult relationships that corresponds to what they "know", HOW they know to survive, thus repeating child-hood emotional patterns. On the one hand they are so good at some things (nurturing, responsible, creative, supportive) and so bad at others. What they are usually bad about is taking care of themselves and understanding their own feelings (they were never allowed to HAVE normal feelings about or for themselves due to taking on the burden of too many "adult" emotional responsibilties). Another (and perhaps the most distinct) hallmark is "abandonment fear". A co-dependent person is terrified of being abandoned due to their childhood abandonment by the adults that should have, could have or were incapable of providing the child a safe, supportive environment. Said child is out there on it's own to figure it all out for itself. The child wants desperately to be supported, wants desperately by instinct to be nutured by their "adult" and will do anything to "fix that". They later become the "child-adults" in order to cope w/ their situation. Often in these situations a child learns to "keep secrets" in order to survive--as in they won't "tell on their adults" because children don't comprehend that their adults are "bad" for them. All they know is that their parents are their souls and they need and want their love. So as an adult they will do anything to "fix" the pain as opposed to walk away from the pain because it is all they know...they are still "child-adults". A co-dependent also seeks to "resolve" as one would continue to repeat behavioral patterns with the sub-consious longing to "fix" the pain within adult relaltionships similar to their emotional childhood relationships. "Maybe this time he won't leave" Maybe this time I can stop her from drinking", maybe this time.... Also, consider that these given examples are quite mild by comparison; a child may have endured domestic violence, direct violence, rape, incest, or other forms of extreme victimnization. The greater aspects of what one gains from co-dependency is the value of loyalty and compassion. The lessor aspect is that of lack of self-protection and self-protection from further victimnization. That's the best I can do to explain!
NearlyThere Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 Well that's obviously going to cause issues. You have this seven year old inside you that is really struggling. No child can be, or should be, equipped to deal with that! Just like we all have a parent/adult/child within us, you have a child within you. She hasn't been able to heal from it. Now your adult needs to take control of the situation and get some real input on dealing with it. Ok? I have often wondered about it, but the thought of saying out loud to someone what I said on there, I just cant imagine saying those words, trying to describe the story, what if they thought I was making it all up, like I also said I sometimes wonder if I imagined it, however, I will give serious thought to it now, just have to find someone good in the UK somehow. However thats enough of that. Yes, of course. It's only when we've experienced something that we'll realise what will happen if we do it again. So, you're right, one doesn't realise the extent of the emotional toil until one actually gets there, and by then you're in love. Now this whole 'in love' business. I really do believe that love is just a feeling and as potentially transient as every other feeling. Feelings don't come out of the blue, you know. Every feeling is born from a thought. So, maybe you need to examine your thoughts about this man, about this situation. I believe you may need to examine your values, where they are in conflict and what values are being fulfilled by this man and what values are, as a consequence, suffering. I think it'd be pretty difficult to do this without some coaching, so I'd highly recommend you find someone decent. Alot of food for thought there.What values are being fulfilled and what are suffering as a result, your right, I think i'd need help to sort this as well!!! Its just mind boggling when I try and think about it. Control freak? Where did comparing a MM with a control freak come in? What is your connection between the two? I suppose it was a thought that if someone is a person who has low self esteem and self worth, that if they get involved with a person that has a very controlling personality that they could end up in a R that is as equally as bad for you as a MM. A MM can control your life in ways he probably does not even realise as oppose to a controlling person who does. So either way you are letting yourself be manipulated by someone. Obviously as always this does not apply to every one. From: http://www.mindspring.com/~joanmiller/articles/co-dependancy.html[/FONT] Do you see what I mean about each person supporting the other? How that support could be detrimental to each of them? I'm not saying that it is the case, but where both parties are in an unhealthy relationship, i.e. an affair, it could be. Yes I do see what you mean about co-dependance. I can see where I fit into that to be honest. This bit "They were taught that they were not important. They were encouraged to set aside their own needs and wants, and take care of others. In most cases, they acted adult-like as children. " . My parents worked very long hours in the hospitality trade so when I was with them I was always with adults in one way or another and was encouraged to act in and adult way right from a from a very young age. Not trying to make excuses but I suppose thinking out loud. But to be honest just about every word of that seems to apply to me, thats so scary. Not joking there. I sometimes feel like we are in an Alligator death roll until we both reach the bottom or one of us drowns first. I know that sounds a bit overdramatic. Sorry. I suppose what I really mean is , thats why I feel one of us should let go first before its too late, ie he gets caught. But when you have someone telling you they need you, that you make them happy, that they care about you, thats what a co-dependant is looking for surely, so thats why I find it so hard to move on, although I know its bad for me, just thinking again out loud about something I've never even thought about before, so excuse me if i'm talking baloney. Again on the other hand I could be just one of these selfish people who only think about themselves but I've never thought of myself that way either. Anyway thanks for all your time and input I have alot more to think about than what I orginally thought. I think i've told more to people on here I have never even met than people who I have known and been friends with for years. Strange isnt it.
NearlyThere Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 The basic definition of co-dependency (and I am sure others will have more to add, especially if I don't explain this well) is that one's emotional responses are learned and embedded at a very early age. Thus, by early emotionally learned experience one may habitually be more adept or attracted to responding to what is already deeply "en-coded". As an adult, one is not particularly aware or consious of these emotional "values" , which may be irrational but retain some child-hood rationalizations about survival called "survival techniques" and still continue (unaware) to use these instinctive techniques as an adult, although inappropriate or unsuccessful. Shorter version: however one learned as a child to negotiate fearful / difficult situations may bring the same emotional responses and same survival techniques with them as adults. To further, or hopefully, better explain here are a few examples: -A female child has a terminally ill father who often must be hospitalized. This child prays for him to get better, her life is consumed with his care, her every thought is about him being well and home with her, but he passes away. She grows up with the wonderful aspect of "nurturing" but is fearful of loss. Thus, she tends to be attracted to men who are in need of nurture, those who aren't whole and "sick" in another way. But she cannot recognise this and is emotionally terrified of loss, so she stays. -A male child has a mother who is substance-addicted. He must take care of her as she is physically and/or emotionally unable to take care of herself. She is unavailable as to his emotional needs and he becomes the "parent" taking care of HER. He grows up to be a very responsible young man, but is emotionally attracted to someone he can take care of (fix) and these persons may be un-healthy; (as was his mother). The hallmark of co-dependency is a child who was never allowed, by whatever life-situation to be a CHILD and develop normal coping skills to be used later in life. Their stunted emotional growth and their resulting abnormal coping skills leads them to choose adult relationships that corresponds to what they "know", HOW they know to survive, thus repeating child-hood emotional patterns. On the one hand they are so good at some things (nurturing, responsible, creative, supportive) and so bad at others. What they are usually bad about is taking care of themselves and understanding their own feelings (they were never allowed to HAVE normal feelings about or for themselves due to taking on the burden of too many "adult" emotional responsibilties). Another (and perhaps the most distinct) hallmark is "abandonment fear". A co-dependent person is terrified of being abandoned due to their childhood abandonment by the adults that should have, could have or were incapable of providing the child a safe, supportive environment. Said child is out there on it's own to figure it all out for itself. The child wants desperately to be supported, wants desperately by instinct to be nutured by their "adult" and will do anything to "fix that". They later become the "child-adults" in order to cope w/ their situation. Often in these situations a child learns to "keep secrets" in order to survive--as in they won't "tell on their adults" because children don't comprehend that their adults are "bad" for them. All they know is that their parents are their souls and they need and want their love. So as an adult they will do anything to "fix" the pain as opposed to walk away from the pain because it is all they know...they are still "child-adults". A co-dependent also seeks to "resolve" as one would continue to repeat behavioral patterns with the sub-consious longing to "fix" the pain within adult relaltionships similar to their emotional childhood relationships. "Maybe this time he won't leave" Maybe this time I can stop her from drinking", maybe this time.... Also, consider that these given examples are quite mild by comparison; a child may have endured domestic violence, direct violence, rape, incest, or other forms of extrem The lessor aspect is that of lack of self-protection and self-protection from further victimnization. e victimnization. The greater aspects of what one gains from co-dependency is the value of loyalty and compassion. That's the best I can do to explain! Hi POM Thanks for your reply, wow, you have pointed out some very interesting points for me as well. Its amazing things that seem to match sometimes, I mean, my father was diagnosed with lung cancer when I was 9 and I was told he might die on the operating table and I had to say goodbye to him. He survived the op but became very ill afterwards and I watched him nearly die at home. It was horrible. We were a small family even then, no other family support just me, my mum and him. My mum has said in all of my boyfriends/partners that I always go lame ducks, lol. Sorry shouldnt laugh, but I have to try and keep my sense of humour. People who always need some kind of support. Beginning to think its me who is the lame duck!! roflmao. seriously. Thanks for you input POM Hugs to you as well. NT
puddleofmud Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Please don't apologize for your well-developed sense of humour! You EARNED that one! Kisses to you!
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