For the Guys: A Reality Check

[a4a]

Men need to be need in a relationship.........

 

does this mean that men need to be needed so they have more power or control in the relationship in a way?

 

Insecure?

 

If you are a key player at work, the company will fold without you of course you are able to get away with more than the not so needed easy to replace office gopher.... need equals power, control, and security in that case.

 

Is this similar in a way?

[Outcast]

How many times do we see a woman say that she wants a supportive, emotionally-available partner, but when they find one they label him as a spineless wimp?

 

Never. Some men who style themselves as 'emotionally available' are in fact self-abnegating individuals who fear confrontation and therefore never make their own needs or wishes known. And they may well be spineless wimps.

 

How many of these situations have you personally observed? And did you know the men well enough to say that they were not indeed spineless wimps?

 

How many times do they say they want someone with a good heart, but will leave him in a heartbeat when a fatter wallet comes by?

 

Again, such a simplistic analysis. Let's hear the whole story. Ever think that the 'good heart' guy still is a drunken slob at home every night? Or controlling? Once more, how many of these situations have you observed in such detail that you can conclude that the ONLY reason the woman left the man was for the 'fatter wallet'?:

 

How many times do they say they want a good father figure, but end up riding off on the back of a Harley with a proverbial bad boy?

 

Well let's see. A woman likely to do that is immature and would show signs of immaturity other than this. If you ignored all the red flags because 'she's HOT', then you've only yourself to blame for not seeing it coming.

 

How many times does a woman say she wants someone who takes care of himself, but tosses him aside when she realizes that he's spending more time on personal grooming and more money on clothesthan she does?

 

And yet again - please give us a detailed analysis of these relationships including the backgrounds, mental states, and day-to-day diary of them. And explain the evidence that led you to conclude that the ONLY reason she tosses him aside is because he's overly fastidious.

 

Provide proof for all your examples.

 

It's facile to observe a situation and impose a simplistic (and therefore without a doubt incorrect) analysis on what caused the break. Read up on 'confirmation bias' and sort out whether your bitterness over a failed relationship has skewed your bias towards seeing all women in a negative light. This, too, has a name in psychology. It's called Stimulus Generalization and means that if one black dog bites you you may become afraid of anything that's black and canine.

 

And you have to understand that humans may have a tendency to such generalizations but that they are the product of lower-order brain operations and that the higher-order brain has the option of conducting a finer analysis of the situation and realize that just because one black dog chomped you it does not mean every one will.

 

However if you continue to insist that all black dogs are bad, it just signals to others that you can't be bothered to engage the higher-order brain you've been gifted with.

[superconductor]

When women didn't have equal legal, social, and moral rights, it was unfair.

I agree, which is why I wrote, I don't see how any clear-thinking individual could argue that women shouldn't be paid the same as men, or get promoted like men or anything of the sort. That is as it should be.

But what you're trying to defend here is that although given the same rights, men suffer from the fact that women have the same rights.

That's a stretch, to say the least. I was not supporting, and have never supported, the outdated notion of women as property, devoid of rights.

because women are treated like humans now, men have lost their position, strength, and social benefits.

No, not at all. You're making an assumption that human rights are a zero-sum game, but they're not.

Marriage as an institution has become a love nest rather than a financial/parental community as it used to be. Thank god! So women don't need to be married if marriage is not providing them with love and affection and understanding.

Which is, of course, exactly my point. The rules have changed.

About fathers and child suport... this world is still full of men who are capable of abandoning their children because they met a new cute girl. You expect an applause for that?

I don't understand the vitriol here. Deadbeat dads, just like deadbeat mums, are scum.

 

By the way, did you know that non-custodial mothers are far more likely to go into arrears on child support than non-custodial fathers? I'm just sayin... (with a tip'o the fedora to blind_otter )

[lindya]

The difference, at least as I see it, is that women no longer need men, and as a result men have floundered for decades, trying on various social personas to try and re-invent themselves as supportive and worthy partners.

 

I think the "we don't need men" reaction you're picking up is often a defensive response to perceptions that men are hostile beings, out to demean and humiliate women. The internet has opened up a whole new world. Women and men are getting to eavesdrop on eachother like never before....and a lot of what we're hearing confirms our worst fears about eachother.

 

Should we worry, if we sleep with a lover, that every bodily flaw is going to get gloated over on a website or in a locker room the next day? Do we get paranoid and start searching for hidden cameras in the bedroom? Is it best to resign ourselves to getting dumped as soon as a better looking/more sexually adventurous woman comes along? Does our only intrinsic value lie in a body that will inevitably age? Should we invest any emotions into a relationship with a man who might well answer yes to all the above questions...or would it just be easier to avoid the whole messy process?

 

It's perhaps less about not needing men, more about needing to protection against a certain type of man. A type that some men's movements seem to be actively promoting.

 

 

How many times do we see a woman say that she wants a supportive, emotionally-available partner, but when they find one they label him as a spineless wimp? How many times do they say they want someone with a good heart, but will leave him in a heartbeat when a fatter wallet comes by? How many times do they say they want a good father figure, but end up riding off on the back of a Harley with a proverbial bad boy? How many times does a woman say she wants someone who takes care of himself, but tosses him aside when she realizes that he's spending more time on personal grooming and more money on clothesthan she does?

 

I hear you. I think these are the male equivalent to some of the female fears I expressed above. They're not entirely without validity insofar as there are women who always keep an eye on the main chance (ie gold diggers), and there are women who will be dismissive of sensitive men.

 

In this way, both men and women are allowing their perceptions of eachother to be controlled by their worst fears. Those fears come out in negative and self-perpetuating attacks on the opposite sex. I think the men and women who have an underlying hostility towards the opposite sex often end up gravitating towards eachother...perpetuating some of the scenarios you listed above.

 

It is, of course, as much men's fault as anyone. Donning various personas and cultivating particular personality traits to make themselves attractive to women is in fundamental conflict with their integrated selves, and is fundamentally dishonest.

 

Herein one of the problems. Essentially, what you're describing is strategy. Techniques that some men use (consciously or unconsciously) to fool women into believing that their prince has arrived. Ultimately, those strategies might provide men with a temporary feeling of power...but I'd question whether they lead to a long term sense of fulfilment, happiness or enlightenment.

 

This is why so many people on this site (women and men) place a lot of emphasis on emotional intelligence. To hardline followers of a "menaissance" EI is a turn off. It's just not manly sounding. When it comes to having anything like a fair and co-operative relationship, though, emotional intelligence is key.

 

And it doesn't involve slipping into a false persona or losing one's integrity. It just involves having a better understanding of the emotional positions people often operate from, and how to avoid the pitfalls that commonly arise from failing to understand or realise that people are locked into those positions. How to deal effectively and calmly with conflict and aim for a more co-operative approach.

 

And, I gotta tell ya, from this viewpoint, it hurts. It makes us - well, me anyway - feel disposable.

 

What do you think the answer is? Lets say the Menaissance Movement gathers force. That more and more men gather together in chatrooms to snigger about ugly female genitalia and relate funny stories about how they made a fat girl cry (I'll PM you a relevant link). Will that solve the problem? Will sustained hostility towards women make them eventually cave in and decide that they do need men after all....or will it just widen the gulf even more?

 

Maybe more and more women will decide to join the Menaissance movement and become like honorary guys. In possession of female parts, but talking, thinking and joking like one of the boys. Participating in the rejection of empathy, softness and anything else traditionally associated with being female. Would that work out?

 

How does a man stop feeling disposable without treating women as disposable and encouraging both men and women to buy into that concept?

[EnigmaXOXO]

How many times do we see a woman say that she wants a supportive, emotionally-available partner, but when they find one they label him as a spineless wimp?

 

Sometimes this happens, yes. But there are often times when a man claims to be attracted to a confident, independent woman … and when he finds one, his masculinity is suddenly threatened.

 

How many times do they say they want someone with a good heart, but will leave him in a heartbeat when a fatter wallet comes by?

 

And how many times do men leave their domesticated and oh so boring stay-at-home wives and children for that hot, flirtatious young intern working at the office? --- Leaving their family behind struggling to support themselves financially. There's a very good reason why alimony and child support laws exist. And it wasn't because history proved that husbands and fathers were all that reliable.

 

How many times do they say they want a good father figure, but end up riding off on the back of a Harley with a proverbial bad boy?

 

And how many times do men say they want a loyal wife and good mother, only to ride off into the sunset with that exciting lust-driven nymph who didn't acquire a tummy and stretch marks bearing his children.

 

 

How many times does a woman say she wants someone who takes care of himself, but tosses him aside when she realizes that he's spending more time on personal grooming and more money on clothesthan she does?

 

And how many times has a man been attracted to the sexy and provocative way his wife dressed before he married her … only to feel threatened when she continues to flaunt her assets in public when he's not around to ward off all the male attention?

 

I understand where your feelings of confusion and disappointment are coming from, Super. I really do. But your masculinity isn't threatened so much by external forces as it is by your own perceptions of who and what you are. The same goes for me and other females, too! Just because we sometimes have to step up and learn to take care of ourselves in order to survive, doesn't mean we have to surrender our femininity to those old archaic stereotypes, or deny all those best (and worst) parts of ourselves that make us uniquely female … OR just plain individuals.

[RecordProducer]

I agree...

...Which is, of course, exactly my point. The rules have changed.

Oh... OK, whatever... But your original post did contain things like what do we (men) do about it as if you had to change something, as if your position was shaken by the rights women have gained.

 

I don't like the whole men vs. women syndrome. We might differ greatly in many aspects, but we all need the same things in life and need each other to complete those needs and desires.

 

Every change and development require adjustment. What men need to do to adjust is to be supermen to please us women (nothing more than that). And women need to be superwomen, too in order to struggle in all areas of life and be mothers and support themselves, because they can't depend on men anymore.

 

So in a way, it's harder for both genders now. But it's the cost of advancement.

[Ripples]

Lindya has posted everything I'd have wanted to, but wouldn't have had the ability to. Fantastic posts, Lindya, as always

[superconductor]

Lindya has posted everything I'd have wanted to, but wouldn't have had the ability to. Fantastic posts, Lindya, as always

Yep, she' pretty smart. I'll bet she's a lawyer or something.

[burning 4 revenge]

Yep, she' pretty smart. I'll bet she's a lawyer or something.

 

:lmao:

 

Yeah, damned lawyers with all their words

 

Are you a lawyer by any chance?

[a4a]

Yep, she' pretty smart. I'll bet she's a lawyer or something.

 

I always figured she was in some minimum security womens prison and was spending her time her on LS to distract her from very attractive cell mates.

 

She stole millions from a bank while working there in the legal dept and buried the money in her Aunts back yard.... she only has 5 years left of her sentence and is planning to "retire" in the tropics with her buried cash.

[Woggle]

The solution to this is for men to develop our own identities outisde of women. We spend huge amounts of money, time and other things trying to impress women when we should live our lives without them being a factor. We need to start living our lives with or without them. It seems that every few years men have a new identity based on what women say they want and then women don't that anymore. Why not just be who we are and women can take it or leave it. Women know damn well how much value we place on the female gender and having a woman and they act accordingly. We have been boosting their ego for so damn long that nowadays we

have the spoiled and entitled pricesses every man has dealt with today.

 

Truth be told except for babies what do men need women for. WE know how to clean, cook and we have our hands. For those of us who just need sex just go to your nearest ghetto and get a hooker at a great price. One day they will have mechanical wombs as well so we won't need them to produce children. We also need to get back in the colleges and look these manhating professors in the eye with no fear and get our degrees. This is not meant to cut women down but to show that anything the feminists want to throw at us can be thrown right back at them. Respect yourself and others will respect. Right now many men have no self respect so in turn women don't respect them.

[a4a]

Respect yourself and others will respect. Right now many men have no self respect so in turn women don't respect them.

 

 

If a man lacks self respect he alone is to blame. Not even the nastiest feminazi can strip a man of his self respect. More so he would not look for a scapegoat to blame his lack of self respect upon if indeed he actually had self respect. It is up to the man to make the choice to not allow the feminazi to make him feel like a lesser being and lose his self respect.

 

If one is to blame women that are independent for them feeling lost and confused about their own role it surely shows weakness in that individual.

 

Now if women use their power to directly harm a man just because they are male that is a different story. Pay him less, deny him a job, or does not allow him some other right based on gender.... yes that is wrong. And you know what that does happen daily....but mostly to women -still in this day and age.

[Woggle]

If a man lacks self respect he alone is to blame. Not even the nastiest feminazi can strip a man of his self respect. More so he would not look for a scapegoat to blame his lack of self respect upon if indeed he actually had self respect. It is up to the man to make the choice to not allow the feminazi to make him feel like a lesser being and lose his self respect.

 

If one is to blame women that are independent for them feeling lost and confused about their own role it surely shows weakness in that individual.

 

Now if women use their power to directly harm a man just because they are male that is a different story. Pay him less, deny him a job, or does not allow him some other right based on gender.... yes that is wrong. And you know what that does happen daily....but mostly to women -still in this day and age.

 

Many feminists do get off on emasculating men but men let it happen. The reason many women don't respect men these days is because we have no respect for ourselves and respect means more than anything else when having a relationship with a woman.

[Walk]

Many feminists do get off on emasculating men but men let it happen. The reason many women don't respect men these days is because we have no respect for ourselves and respect means more than anything else when having a relationship with a woman.

 

You state: "Men" have no respect for themselves. Feminists emascluate men. Men let it happen.

 

Ergo: it's womens fault?

 

Where were you going with this?

[Woggle]

You state: "Men" have no respect for themselves. Feminists emascluate men. Men let it happen.

 

Ergo: it's womens fault?

 

Where were you going with this?

 

Feminists are wrong for trying to be the *******s they accuse men of being but men have lied down and let it happen. This is what I am saying.

[a4a]

Feminists are wrong for trying to be the *******s they accuse men of being but men have lied down and let it happen. This is what I am saying.

 

Wog..... you would probably label me as a feminazi just because I think a woman deserves equal pay for the same job. Just like I believe a person of a different race deserves the same pay for the same work. The same oppurtunity for advancement, the same treatment in a loan office, the same treatment regardless of gender........ I think transsexuals and gays also deserve equal treatment. That is a real feminist..... not the psycho feminazi your mother is.... that is called mentally ill.

 

So perhaps you need to add a new term to your volcabulary...... EQUALIST:lmao: That way you will not be lumping those of us that are for equal rights in with your feminazi mentally ill group and offending us by doing so.

 

Wanting fairness is not a matter of emasculating a man. It is a matter of equality.

[Woggle]

Wog..... you would probably label me as a feminazi just because I think a woman deserves equal pay for the same job. Just like I believe a person of a different race deserves the same pay for the same work. The same oppurtunity for advancement, the same treatment in a loan office, the same treatment regardless of gender........ I think transsexuals and gays also deserve equal treatment. That is a real feminist..... not the psycho feminazi your mother is.... that is called mentally ill.

 

So perhaps you need to add a new term to your volcabulary...... EQUALIST:lmao: That way you will not be lumping those of us that are for equal rights in with your feminazi mentally ill group and offending us by doing so.

 

Wanting fairness is not a matter of emasculating a man. It is a matter of equality.

 

 

I fully support equal pay and equality in every other aspect of life. I even think they should have passed the ERA back in the 70s. It probably would have nipped the radical feminiazi movement in the bud right there. THat is why I am pro-choice. If abortion is ever outlawed the feminazis will come out in droves. Many feminazis clearly are not about equality and even you admit there is an attitude amongst both men and women that the opposite sex is useless and more trouble than they are worth. This is a sad state of affairs and I feel that the radical feminazis today are partly to blame. To be fair men who cheat and use and abuse women are to blame as well. I am just defending myself in a gender polarized society. I have found a relationship that I truly feel transcends all this nonsense so the way other women act doesn't phase me.

[Walk]

The solution to this is for men to develop our own identities outisde of women. We spend huge amounts of money, time and other things trying to impress women when we should live our lives without them being a factor.

 

It's always enlightening for me to hear something like this from a man. I get so caught up in "my" perspective, that i think it's ONLY women who feel like Woggle just stated. It seems like (to me) that in order to be the "normal" female I have to spend enourmous amounts of time and money in order to impress men. (even so far as to get all parts of my body waxed and buffed and polished..)

 

So, when I hear that a man feels the same way.. it kind of makes me feel relieved that it's not just "women" that feel this way.

 

But it also makes me sad. Why does it have to be this way? Why can't we stop buying into the whole tv illusion of what society deems acceptable is? Whatever happened to seeing someone for who they are and not what they are?

 

And Woggle... the solution is not for men to toss aside the female gender. You were recently married.. you didn't chose to make women obsolete in your life. But you (I hope) chose a better alternative. You found a person who isn't devoted to the outward appearance to create a fantasy illusion. But one who chose an inward look at the real people involved in her life. (or did I get that wrong?)

 

We don't have to "impress" anyone. The only person I want to impress is myself. And that doesn't involve tanning salons or getting my nails done. It involves the intrinsic rewards I get from a job well done, or doing a good dead for someone. Instead of focusing on all the negative and caustic people in the world, I chose to focus on the people who are good, decent human beings. Not Men vs Women. Tossing out an entire gender based on a belief that you have to "impress" them in order to garner respect in yourself is rather absurd. Whose impression of you matters so dang much that you must banish them from your life in order to live with your self?

[a4a]

I fully support equal pay and equality in every other aspect of life. I even think they should have passed the ERA back in the 70s. It probably would have nipped the radical feminiazi movement in the bud right there. THat is why I am pro-choice. If abortion is ever outlawed the feminazis will come out in droves. Many feminazis clearly are not about equality and even you admit there is an attitude amongst both men and women that the opposite sex is useless and more trouble than they are worth. This is a sad state of affairs and I feel that the radical feminazis today are partly to blame. To be fair men who cheat and use and abuse women are to blame as well. I am just defending myself in a gender polarized society. I have found a relationship that I truly feel transcends all this nonsense so the way other women act doesn't phase me.

 

liar liar pants on fire

 

if it did not bother you, you would not come out to protest it so.

 

Men are the victims of women?......... hummm no wonder they have no self respect if they walk around with a victim attitude.

[Woggle]

It's always enlightening for me to hear something like this from a man. I get so caught up in "my" perspective, that i think it's ONLY women who feel like Woggle just stated. It seems like (to me) that in order to be the "normal" female I have to spend enourmous amounts of time and money in order to impress men. (even so far as to get all parts of my body waxed and buffed and polished..)

 

So, when I hear that a man feels the same way.. it kind of makes me feel relieved that it's not just "women" that feel this way.

 

But it also makes me sad. Why does it have to be this way? Why can't we stop buying into the whole tv illusion of what society deems acceptable is? Whatever happened to seeing someone for who they are and not what they are?

 

And Woggle... the solution is not for men to toss aside the female gender. You were recently married.. you didn't chose to make women obsolete in your life. But you (I hope) chose a better alternative. You found a person who isn't devoted to the outward appearance to create a fantasy illusion. But one who chose an inward look at the real people involved in her life. (or did I get that wrong?)

 

We don't have to "impress" anyone. The only person I want to impress is myself. And that doesn't involve tanning salons or getting my nails done. It involves the intrinsic rewards I get from a job well done, or doing a good dead for someone. Instead of focusing on all the negative and caustic people in the world, I chose to focus on the people who are good, decent human beings. Not Men vs Women. Tossing out an entire gender based on a belief that you have to "impress" them in order to garner respect in yourself is rather absurd. Whose impression of you matters so dang much that you must banish them from your life in order to live with your self?

 

If men and women had to trade places for a year and then switch back this might solve the whole battle of the sexes. We both have our own issues and men have a role to live up to that we are told women like as well. We are told that we have to drive the nice car, wear the expensive suits and portray an image of wealth in order to get a woman. The othsr issue for men is that one minute we are told that women like metrosexuals then the next minute we are supposed to rugged men. Then we are supposed to be sensitive but not too sensitive or we are a wimp. Sometimes men don't know whether we are coming or going. Believe me men have a lot of pressure to live up to as well.

 

As for rejecting women like I said before I found a marriage that I feel transcends all this nonsense. We are not really dependent on each other but our home is a great refuge from the nonsense of the world which is what a home should be. I would not have settled for anything less though.

[Woggle]

liar liar pants on fire

 

if it did not bother you, you would not come out to protest it so.

 

Men are the victims of women?......... hummm no wonder they have no self respect if they walk around with a victim attitude.

 

It does to a certain extent but not nearly as much as it used to. I refuse to live my life anymore based on what people say women want.

 

In the battle of the sexes both men and women are victims. I don't know too many people that are actually happy with the bitterness between the genders today. Worst of all children of broken homes and those are the products of one night stands that are not really wanted but used as weapons between scorned men and women are the biggest victims.

[lindya]

I'll bet she's a lawyer or something.

 

Away back to the psychics' thread with you.

[Outcast]

Oh not again. Woggle, you're hijacking this thread for another Woggle rant. Why not put a link to your other 54,776 threads about the horrors of females and leave this thread, which was quite interesting, be?

[Ripples]

Away back to the psychics' thread with you.

 

He just wants turning into a prince, I can tell <smug>

 

[superconductor]

He just wants turning into a prince, I can tell <smug>

 

Prince? No. Now a knight would be cool, riding atop a white steed, with shiny armour and a claymore to cut down those revolting peasants...