Tony T Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I have never for a moment believed that my mother and father had sex some nine months before I was born. My mom and dad would never have done that to each other! Link to post Share on other sites
magichands Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Yeah. Cesareans have been performed since ancient times. It is believed that Cesar was possibly born via cesarean. But usually the mother was already dead or dying because most often they did not survive. But it was done even back then. Caesar wasn't - that's a common myth. Link to post Share on other sites
magichands Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I have never for a moment believed that my mother and father had sex some nine months before I was born. My mom and dad would never have done that to each other! You're making me think... Link to post Share on other sites
sugarplum Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Nope, the Christian principle is that Jesus is EXEMPT from Original Sin because he's the Son of God (not son of man). He was sinless & pure. That's why God sent him to be sacrificed for humanity. Christ is the bridge between humans & God. I am aware of Christian principles. One can be of original sin and still be sinless. We all were at one point. if you believe that sort of thing. Link to post Share on other sites
sugarplum Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Caesar wasn't - that's a common myth. I said it was believed - implying it must have been performed at that time (cesareans) in order for it to be believed as a possibility. I think only Caesar's mom knows for sure! It was also a common myth that the world was flat. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Joelle Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 But if a being were to create the universe, as Christians believe, then yes, I would think He were above the laws of nature. Actually, many Christians I know believe this, too. They believe God is above the laws of nature. Like I said before, I don't think that's accurate. Link to post Share on other sites
burning 4 revenge Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 :lmao::lmao:Rumor has it Mary had a great set of hips on her. Link to post Share on other sites
burning 4 revenge Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 The ancient historian and philosopher Celsus stated (circa 180 a.d.) that the virgin birth was an adaptation of the myth of Dionysus to cover up the fact that Mary had an infidelity with a Roman soldier. That was the rumor 1900 years ago, take it for what you will. Google Jesus ben Pandera, or Jesus ben Pantera or Celsus Link to post Share on other sites
sugarplum Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Christians, enlighten me, please. I'm interested in how you accept Christ's virginal birth as "fact." Its a matter of what you chose to believe........or not. Faith: Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Link to post Share on other sites
justpassingthrough Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Yeah. Cesareans have been performed since ancient times. It is believed that Cesar was possibly born via cesarean. But usually the mother was already dead or dying because most often they did not survive. But it was done even back then. Julius is widely believed to be the first cesarean, thus the name. Julius was also so bold to change the calendar and add a month named after himself (July) and Augustus (August). So whether the process ever was a first with him is up for speculation; it could have all stemmed from sheer ego. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Joelle Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 Its a matter of what you chose to believe........or not.Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Actually, I'm familiar with the principles of faith. I think that the "Virginal Birth of Christ" is hard to accept as fact based on faith alone. Additionally, accepting the idea as fact is the bedrock of Christianity. Regardiing this idea as anything less, Christianity is baseless. Now, at the risk of being flamed and criticized, how is accepting the Virginal Birth different from believing in fables of unicorns & mermaids? There is no scientific evidence that those supernatural animals exist (like the supernatural birth of Christ). If someone believed in the existence of those creatures, isn't it similar to a Christian believing in the Virginal birth of Christ? Link to post Share on other sites
sugarplum Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Not sure why you are replying to me Joelle. My quote was from the OP, not you and I dont know why it says that in my quote. My definition of faith was to the OP. Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Actually, I'm familiar with the principles of faith. I think that the "Virginal Birth of Christ" is hard to accept as fact based on faith alone. I think you can't accept it because you have no faith in Christianity. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Joelle Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 Not sure why you are replying to me Joelle. My quote was from the OP, not you and I dont know why it says that in my quote. My definition of faith was to the OP. Uh, per post #34, I thought you replied to me. That's why I replied back to you. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites
sugarplum Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 . Christians, enlighten me, please. I'm interested in how you accept Christ's virginal birth as "fact." OP asked how Christians accept this as fact. Not how or why those who dont, dont . There are many religions that fall under the "Christian" category, all with very different fundamental beliefs. There are more versions of Christians and beliefs than there are versions of Coke. This is why I avoid this forum. Its too hard to stick to the actual question asked when everyones an expert. I am running away now......quickly. OP, you either have faith in it, or you dont. If you aren't sure, research it. Link to post Share on other sites
burning 4 revenge Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 the parallels between believing in jesus and believing in santa claus are striking Link to post Share on other sites
sugarplum Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Uh, per post #34, I thought you replied to me. That's why I replied back to you. Sorry. Yeah, dont know what happened. Your name is there, but the quote is OP's words, not yours. Wierd. Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Sugarplum, meet Joelle...the OP. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Joelle Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think you can't accept it because you have no faith in Christianity. Based on my examination of fundamental Christian facts, I think you're right. It's hard for me to trust that the "facts" are true. Link to post Share on other sites
sugarplum Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Sugarplum, meet Joelle...the OP. OMG...I see where I got confused now. Sorry, my fault! Im an idiot. Past my bedtime! I have no clue what I was thinking. You can all laugh at me now! *Running away even faster than before! * Have "faith" that I am not as dumb as I appear right now! Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Based on my examination of fundamental Christian facts, I think you're right. It's hard for me to trust that the "facts" are true. Like I said from the beginning, it all comes down to faith. I have never felt the need to doubt it, so therefore I didn't ever look for things that others would question. I know in my heart that God made the world. And I know in my heart that if people were more like Christ, the world would be a better place. Link to post Share on other sites
burning 4 revenge Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Like I said from the beginning, it all comes down to faith. I have never felt the need to doubt it, so therefore I didn't ever look for things that others would question. I know in my heart that God made the world. And I know in my heart that if people were more like Christ, the world would be a better place. you mean growing a beard and getting crucified Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 you mean growing a beard and getting crucified I'm not going to knock you for your beliefs. Please don't mock my beliefs either. I, too, try to avoid these threads. One would think that this forum would bring people together, but for some reason, it often ends up as a debate which can get down-right nasty. My calling in life is not to convert others to Christianity...at least not today. Link to post Share on other sites
flavius Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 So, you think it's impossible, do you? Well congratulations on your strartling grasp of the OBVIOUS! That is just hilarious. Of course, the impossibility of it is the whole point of a miracle, so your problem will go much farther than just the virgin birth. Resurrection of the dead is a real zinger, for instance. Of course there is a symantic technicality involved that messes things up, but it would not have been an issue for the pre-modern mind. That is, it makes no sense to call someone a virgin who is pregnant or even a mother. She was only the Virgin Mary before she was divinely knocked up. That does not conflict with scriptural orthodoxy, actually, as we are told only that "a virgin will be with child", not that she would be a virgin after she was with child. Personally, I think the occasion of her insemination was probably quite spectacular, and I'd say she was left with no doubt she had been "overshadowed" by the Most High. If you know what I mean. Actually the dialog with the angel who appeared to her sounds very flirtatious to me, especially in the Greek, minus any later Christian translation. When the angel said "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee", that translates equally well as "Check out Mary, ain't she hot! Hey, hey, hey -- The Man is here!" It actually says that the angel's greeting was ambiguous ("Mary wondered what kind of greeting this was..."), and that Mary was "stirred up" (translated as troubled) by his words. If that wasn't enough, the fresh angel announced she would have a baby. "And how's THAT supposed to happen? Like DUH, I'm a VIRGIN!" Well of course, the usual way. Says the angel, "The Holy Spirit (breath, wind, essence) will get-up-on-you, and the power of the Almighty shall cast-on-you-the-shadow. This story, whether one believes its miraculous claim or not, was not intended to be taken figurally. Hebrew writings do not use specifics by way of hyperbole in the manner of Persian, Greek, or Sumerian writings. Or so I am told. Good to see you, Moai! Link to post Share on other sites
burning 4 revenge Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 what you say about hebrew writing may be true but the originals were written in greek by hellenised jews, no Link to post Share on other sites
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