john1776 Posted July 1, 2006 Posted July 1, 2006 I believe people can undergo a miraculous transformation. How do we know that this guy didn't become a born again christian? God can do anything. God through Jesus Christ has and still does miraculously change the hearts of men. The apostle paul in the bible was a murderer and persecuted christians and blasphemed God before he met Jesus Christ on the damascaus road and then all of that changed. Paul was a new man and wrote most of the new testament epistles. God is the same yesterday, today, & forever. If He did that for paul He can certainly do it for wife beaters today. Again just another possibility to think about as to what might have changed for him over the last 10 years. I still think everybody deserves a 2nd chance to prove themselves. The past is the past. There is nothing anyone can do about past mistakes. The issue is whether or not he has learned from the mistakes and gotten to the root of the problems and whether or not he's committed to never repeating the same mistakes. At this point it may not matter for groovy to get in contact with him if that's what she's considering. He may already be long gone and moved on with someone else. He may already be thanking her for doing him a favor by dumping him. If I was in his position I would have taken the dumping as a favor because afterall there's other women out there who will not demand that I have a flawless past. I would know where she stood and if she rejected me for that and didn't even have the decency to tell the real reason for the break up (most women don't tell you the whole truth behind why they are breaking up with you) then I would consider it her loss. It is no different than a guy who has a past record of cheating or drunkedness or drug abuse and then has gotten the help he needed to better himself. Granted it's not against the law to cheat but the likelihood of a cheater reforming is about the same as any other past mistake that has gotten people hurt.
john1776 Posted July 1, 2006 Posted July 1, 2006 I wanted to also mention that I can understand where groovy is coming from if he is in fact guilty of these charges but didn't tell her about this early on in the relationship. If he is guilty then I would be more bothered by the fact that he hid this information from you. Now if he was straight up from the very beginning and voluntarily gave her that information then at least he should respected for being upfront and honest. I think that by witholding something like that is lying by omission.
Author Groovy Posted July 2, 2006 Author Posted July 2, 2006 Thanks for so many replies. I agree there is no good way to say "I looked at criminal records" so I won't. I can comment or hint at topics, but that's it. I agree with people that say there may be explanations. He was married for 20 years and there were 2 counts with his ex wife. Like I said she was mentally ill and even delusional at times. He never told me this but my parents did who are friends with his sister. I saw him tonight and told him I'lll be starting a new job so I just want to be friends now. If I ever do get involved in the future I know what to watch for. Whoever says it is like cheating or doing drugs is wrong. My last ex was an ex drug dealer who was sober. Crimes against women and children are always more unsettling. I am glad I pull crime reports but I need to take the info with a grain of salt and be aware there may be situations that made it less unacceptable.
alphamale Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 I am glad I pull crime reports but I need to take the info with a grain of salt and be aware there may be situations that made it less unacceptable. so let me ask you GROOVEY....would you be comfortable if some dude you had been dating for a month or two told you he had run a credit check and FBI background check on you? what would you think if he told you this? would you think he was an idiot? would you think he was paranoid?
Outcast Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 Maybe he was defending himself. Maybe she fabricated the story. He is 47 and he had 1 count in 1988 and one in 1996. So it's nothing recent. If he was convicted, then that means there was sufficient evidence found and that it wasn't just a case of someone making a false report. Me, I wouldn't chance it. Nobody 'deserves' to be hit and clearly if it had been a matter of self-defence, he would not have been charged. I agree that some people can change but I think violence and lack of control to the extent of harming another person is something intrinsic that doesn't respond to treatment in most people. And of course these people seem nice. There is a misconception that abusers or violent people look like the movie image of insanity - wild-eyed wierdos. It's not the case. Jeffrey Dahmer was a cutie. Some of the worst serial killers seemed perfectly normal - and not only normal but charming and friendly. Ted Bundy had devoted female friends. BTK was married with a family and considered a pillar of his church. Too many people, I think, think they are splendid judges of character. This is a dangerous belief since it'll allow you to be fooled by the worst psychopaths who excel at charm but will kill you with no compunction. If he had been wrongly accused of violence in his past, I'm pretty sure he would have told you the story so if he's kept it silent, there's a reason.
Craig Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 When you did the criminal record check were these two convictions or two arrests? There is a huge difference between the two. In some jurisdictions it was and possibly still is the standard procedure to arrest the man on domestic violence even though he might be the victim. Because there was a time when there were no services available for men as survivors of domestic violence. The thinking was that if the male survivor was arrested then that might be a wake up call to him that his relationship is in the toilet and he better do something about it like leave. Unfair, of course but given the circumstances not without compassion. If these were convictions and you want to dig further (because it is not uncommon for a man to plead guilty to a lesser charge of some form of domestic violence as part of a plea bargain offered by the D.A. to escape the expense and stress of a criminal court trial, etc.) then dig further. You can find out some more information about the events that led to the intervention by the justice system. Dig up the public record of the divorce as well. Who filed and what were the stated reasons for the divorce? Learn about abusers and how to spot them, in fact do a Google search on "how to spot an abuser" and you'll likely come up with a couple of sites that give the same basic information about an abusers early relationship M.O. Abusers have remarkably similar behaviors and are fairly easy to spot once you know what to look for. If all signs point to him being abusive then run. Unlike some other posters that think leopards can change their spots I am of the opinion based on personal experience and in talking to survivors of domestic violence and people who counsel domestic violence survivor/victims (and batterers) that abusers can't be counted on to change. Sorry to all those that believe an abuser can change but from what I have seen and heard the only change that most, not all, do is change the method of abuse. Oh, I almost forgot...both men and women can be abusers or survivors of domestic violence.
Mary3 Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 If he was convicted, then that means there was sufficient evidence found and that it wasn't just a case of someone making a false report. Me, I wouldn't chance it. Nobody 'deserves' to be hit and clearly if it had been a matter of self-defence, he would not have been charged. I agree that some people can change but I think violence and lack of control to the extent of harming another person is something intrinsic that doesn't respond to treatment in most people. And of course these people seem nice. There is a misconception that abusers or violent people look like the movie image of insanity - wild-eyed wierdos. It's not the case. Jeffrey Dahmer was a cutie. Some of the worst serial killers seemed perfectly normal - and not only normal but charming and friendly. Ted Bundy had devoted female friends. BTK was married with a family and considered a pillar of his church. Too many people, I think, think they are splendid judges of character. This is a dangerous belief since it'll allow you to be fooled by the worst psychopaths who excel at charm but will kill you with no compunction. If he had been wrongly accused of violence in his past, I'm pretty sure he would have told you the story so if he's kept it silent, there's a reason. Beautifully well spoken advice !
Mary3 Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 When you did the criminal record check were these two convictions or two arrests? There is a huge difference between the two. In some jurisdictions it was and possibly still is the standard procedure to arrest the man on domestic violence even though he might be the victim. Because there was a time when there were no services available for men as survivors of domestic violence. The thinking was that if the male survivor was arrested then that might be a wake up call to him that his relationship is in the toilet and he better do something about it like leave. Unfair, of course but given the circumstances not without compassion. If these were convictions and you want to dig further (because it is not uncommon for a man to plead guilty to a lesser charge of some form of domestic violence as part of a plea bargain offered by the D.A. to escape the expense and stress of a criminal court trial, etc.) then dig further. You can find out some more information about the events that led to the intervention by the justice system. Dig up the public record of the divorce as well. Who filed and what were the stated reasons for the divorce? Learn about abusers and how to spot them, in fact do a Google search on "how to spot an abuser" and you'll likely come up with a couple of sites that give the same basic information about an abusers early relationship M.O. Abusers have remarkably similar behaviors and are fairly easy to spot once you know what to look for. If all signs point to him being abusive then run. Unlike some other posters that think leopards can change their spots I am of the opinion based on personal experience and in talking to survivors of domestic violence and people who counsel domestic violence survivor/victims (and batterers) that abusers can't be counted on to change. Sorry to all those that believe an abuser can change but from what I have seen and heard the only change that most, not all, do is change the method of abuse. Oh, I almost forgot...both men and women can be abusers or survivors of domestic violence. Another excellent Post !
alphamale Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 If he was convicted, then that means there was sufficient evidence found and that it wasn't just a case of someone making a false report. people have been taken off death row and released due to DNA evidence showing they did not do the crime. these people were "convicted" of the crime in question. Nobody 'deserves' to be hit some people to definitely deserve to be smacked around. this goes for both men and women. Some of the worst serial killers seemed perfectly normal - and not only normal but charming and friendly. Ted Bundy had devoted female friends. BTK was married with a family and considered a pillar of his church. these two were exceptions who were also very intelligent and cunning... If he had been wrongly accused of violence in his past, I'm pretty sure he would have told you the story so if he's kept it silent, there's a reason. I don't think so...there is no way to bring up that subject of wrong accusation in a positive light. It would always be a turn-off to the women on the other side of the dinner table. He would say nothing because if he was "wrongly accused" he does not HAVE to say anything. How about this one? Some guy telling a women he's been dating for 4 wks..."oh, um, listen Jessica....I was wrongly accused of molesting 3 teenage girls a number of years ago..." Oh yeah, that would come off real well. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Craig Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 If he was convicted, then that means there was sufficient evidence found and that it wasn't just a case of someone making a false report.Not true, not factual at all. It is not uncommon for an innocent person to escape from the expense, stress and fear of a criminal court trial by accepting a conviction offered by the D.A. as a plea bargain. People are arrested without reasonable cause and then convicted with little or no evidence every single day here and in Canada.
Craig Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 people have been taken off death row and released due to DNA evidence showing they did not do the crime. these people were "convicted" of the crime in question.That is correct Alpha and the sad thing is that the private organizations (Google "The Innocence Project") are the ones that fight for a look at the DNA evidence, etc. The D.A.'s are quite happy to see an innocent person die. These private organizations don't have the resources (money) to look at any convictions except the ones with the harshest penalties.
persianmobster Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 While I don't think there is anything wrong with checking out someone you are dating, I do think there is something wrong with making judgement based only on what you find. So many different things could have occured. In the state of Arizona it is considered Domestic Violence if you live in the same house. So if you and your roomate get into a fight or a loud argument (any situation in which the police are called) you could both be charged with domestic violence. The police are also required to arrest both parties. Or, he could be an abuser. Or, not. You obviously like this guy. He has never lifted his hand against you or even given you the thought that he might, so why not give him the benefit of the doubt and at least ask him about it. I have a friend who used to live in Alaska. He went through a divorce when he was there. He went to his (ex)wifes house to p/u some of his things and took the BBQ. She became angry and called the police and said that he took things of hers. He was charged with domestic violence. If you look at his record in Alaska it looks like he was convicted of domestic violence, if you dig a little deeper you will find that he was initially charged with domestic violence, but never convicted. So, obviously, there are several different types of situations that might warrant a DV charge and they are not all related to physical abuse.
alphamale Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 I have a friend who used to live in Alaska. He went through a divorce when he was there. He went to his (ex)wifes house i didn't know there were any women in Alaska
Outcast Posted July 2, 2006 Posted July 2, 2006 people have been taken off death row and released due to DNA evidence showing they did not do the crime. these people were "convicted" of the crime in question. It is not uncommon for an innocent person to escape from the expense, stress and fear of a criminal court trial by accepting a conviction offered by the D.A. as a plea bargain. Twice????? I think not. these two were exceptions who were also very intelligent and cunning... Not exceptions, Alf. It's dangerous, I repeat, to think you could tell who's a killer or a psychopath and who's not. You can tell if someone's lying sometimes when they know they are lying and feel guilty. Psychopaths have no guilt so there will be no 'vibe' to pick up on.
Craig Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 It is not uncommon for an innocent person to escape from the expense, stress and fear of a criminal court trial by accepting a conviction offered by the D.A. as a plea bargain. Twice????? I think not.Twice, thrice...yes and not difficult to achieve in 1988 or 1996 in some jurisdictions. In fact right now today the majority of criminal "convictions" are obtained through the plea bargain process. In some regions the figure is as high as 95%. Consider if you will a man that is married to a woman and they like so many others in our countries live paycheck to paycheck and are somewhat ignorant regarding the law. He has some challenges regarding boundaries and limits and she is into power and control. He thinks he loves her, there may be kids involved, etc. and she in a moment of bad judgment calls the police during one of their irrational arguments. She tells the police a fabricated story that causes them to arrest him, the D.A. wanting to get re-elected proceeds with charges that will lead to a criminal trial and the man knowing he is innocent but wanting to "save" his marriage and avoid the stresses of a criminal trial where his wife might be found out to be lying (perjury) pleads out to a lesser charge and is saddled with a criminal record for life. Yeah, it happens all the time. What he doesn't know is that effectively no one is ever prosecuted for perjury in a domestic violence case and that no matter what he does his wife will not return to being the woman he once knew. Some men can be torn and confused about leaving a bad marriage just like some women. To some people the marriage vows represent a solemn commitment that they do not want to break except under the most dismal circumstances if ever. If some women can put up with years of abuse at the hands of an emotionally disturbed husband then why can't some men do the same? If some women will try to shield their abuser from prosecution then why not some men? If women on average leave their abuser seven times before finally leaving for good then it is conceivable that some men might return to their abuser multiple times as well. So yes it is possible for an innocent man (or woman) to be convicted multiple times of domestic violence before the relationship ends. For some more reading on plea bargains and innocent people pleading guilty have a look at: http://www.federalobserver.com/print.php?aid=9382 http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/ObjectID/4E8D6815-1797-46FC-8F8AB242FFE6391A/catID/D4C65461-8D33-482C-92FCEA7F2ADED29A/104/143/272/ART/ http://www.eale-slovenia.org/papers/gazal.doc http://chss2.montclair.edu/cca/CHAD%20504%20Children%20and%20Justice/UPDATE%20ABA%20PAPER%20ON%20PLEA%20BARGAINING.doc http://www.truthinjustice.org/the-plea.htm http://after-words.org/grim/mtarchives/2003/04/Apr251326.shtml http://www.wcl.american.edu/journal/lawrev/48/pdf/berend.pdf?rd=1 http://llr.lls.edu/volumes/v34-issue2/williams.pdf
Outcast Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 Well, be that as it may, I'd still not chance it, myself. He'll find someone who won't do a criminal check and if he's innocent and wonderful, they'll both be fine. I just can't imagine there would be many men who have multiple convictions for spousal abuse that are innocent. And I'd say the same if it were a woman who had more than one conviction on her record. I have the utmost empathy for people who are convicted but are innocent but, honestly, how many cases could possibly involve one person being wrongfully convicted of this particular crime twice - especially when the courts back then were pretty reluctant to acknowledge spousal abuse as a crime at all? That's only been possible in the courts recently and still in some jurisdictions women don't get much of a break in these situations.
alphamale Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 That's only been possible in the courts recently and still in some jurisdictions women don't get much of a break in these situations. Is there anywhere I can do emotional background checks on women I date or plan to date? You know....the women who are expert manipulators and use and abuse men emotionally and then cheat? Is there any database where I can check up on women who told former lovers that they love them but really don't? Is there some type of repository where I can identify past gold-digging behviours among certain females? Women who have raped men financially? WTF! give me a break!!!!!
RecordProducer Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 I have reported my ex-husband twice for domestic battery. Once I went to the police, they came home with me and talked to my ex-husband. he didn't deny hitting me. They pressed the charges against him as their legal duty (this was not in the US). The second time, I called the police, they came Profiles of aggressive people can differ. My ex was not the kind of person who would beat the s*** out of on a regular basis. In 2-3 years, he has hit me a few times and that included strangling my neck, hitting my head off the floor, hitting my face really strong when I told his parents that I won't take cursing from them. He has hit my mother too after we got divorced and kicked me in the pubic area with his foot after which my uterus hurt me. I can't call him physically abusive in the classical sense, but he is very low class. His father beat his mother and his brother beats his wife (I know one case when she was pregnant - my ex-brother-in-law told me about this himself). If it ended up in the official records, it's probably not just bulls***. My ex was the sweetest person I knew and he I knew him for 7 years before I married him. If you want to know the truth, you can provoke him. You can start talking about getting even in a joking manner and see how he reacts. E.g. my ex told me that he and his ex-wife had a few battles here and there cuz she would hit him first and ask from him to fight back. Yeah, right! People give themselves away way more than you think. You don't need the criminal records at all!
alphamale Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 Yeah, right! People give themselves away way more than you think. You don't need the criminal records at all! why is it when men use their superior physical strength to beat women they are called criminal and put in jail. When woman uses her superior emotional strength to take advantage of men then nothing happens! WTF! Thats bulls*** man!
RecordProducer Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 I messed up one sentence so I'd like to write it now: The second time, I called the police, they came and talked to me then went to talk to him. I don't know what happened later and how the questioning with him went.
RecordProducer Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 why is it when men use their superior physical strength to beat women they are called criminal and put in jail. When woman uses her superior emotional strength to take advantage of men then nothing happens! WTF! Thats bulls*** man!If this was supposed to be a joke, it's really funny! But I hope it wasn't serious. Please beat me emotionally, but don't kill me with your fist! That's why. Because no man has died from verbal abuse, but many women have died from their husbands' fists. Violence can't compare to language or cheating. Ask any father how they would feel if their daughter were regularly beat by some ass. After all, women are not technically physically weaker in the abusive marriages; they are just not violent and not ready to defend themselves. If a woman grabbed a steel pot and banged her husband in the head... hm... let's talk about that. Is it better than if he were emotionally abusive to her?
Outcast Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 I can't call him physically abusive in the classical sense, You absolutely can. I have no idea what you mean by 'the classical sense' but the first time he hit you, he became an abuser. Violence can't compare to language or cheating. Actually, many people who have been victims of both say the emotional abuse is much worse. And women absolutely are physically violent in almost the same proportion as men are. It's just that, being weaker, they often can't cause as much damage. When woman uses her superior emotional strength to take advantage of men then nothing happens! There are groups, support, and therapy for victims of emotional abuse. Of both genders.
Mary3 Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 Is there anywhere I can do emotional background checks on women I date or plan to date? You know....the women who are expert manipulators and use and abuse men emotionally and then cheat? Is there any database where I can check up on women who told former lovers that they love them but really don't? Is there some type of repository where I can identify past gold-digging behviours among certain females? Women who have raped men financially? WTF! give me a break!!!!! So basically you are saying A ) You have been manipulated by women , B) You have been abused emotionally by women, C ) Been told you were loved by someone but really weren't loved. D) Had women gold diggers who raped you financially ( or at least tried to ) Did you know there are women out there that are not manipulators ? Did you know there are women out there who don't want to abuse you and would love to love you ? Did you know not ALL women say they love you and not mean it. ? ( Some really are capable of real love ) Did you know not ALL women are gold diggers Alpha. ? As long as you continue to spout the same ol' feelings about women in general you will NEVER get to see one that is GOOD and does not want to hurt you. Nuff said .
Outcast Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 Did you know there are women out there that are not manipulators ? Did you know there are women out there who don't want to abuse you and would love to love you ? Did you know not ALL women say they love you and not mean it. ? ( Some really are capable of real love ) Did you know not ALL women are gold diggers Alpha. ? Geeze, Mary, wise UP willya? Those kinda gals aren't necessarily 'HOT'. And the important thing is to find HOT WOMEN, damnit!!!
Mary3 Posted July 3, 2006 Posted July 3, 2006 Geeze, Mary, wise UP willya? Those kinda gals aren't necessarily 'HOT'. And the important thing is to find HOT WOMEN, damnit!!! Well I have been called *hot* and I am the positive side of the things listed above
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